I am about to "rant" about ethics, SCI and fat-boy hunters. If you do not want to read about it, click to the next forum.

I just got the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of SCI magazine. I am a new member and have been sitting back trying to sort out what kind of organization SCI is. Three things jumped out at me that I wish to make a comment on-

1.Fat-boy Hunters - in several articles and several pictures, hunters that were clinically obese are shown smiling proudly with their trophys. I don't get it. You pay your money, go on a big trip, yet do not have the self discipline to get in shape to enjoy the hunt. The worst was an article about a wannabe sheep hunter who went knowing full well what was expected. He makes a long shot, then struggles back to camp because he is getting tired and dehydrated, letting the guide recover the sheep. What is the point of going? Get your butt in shape, lose the weight and enjoy the hunt.

2. Ethics- One guy had the gall to write an article about his "Kalahari Roller Coaster" hunt and admitted to "By agreement, I took the first shot, resting the .30-06 across the top of the truck, and angling slightly to the left.....". You go to Africa to hunt on foot, with a tracker and a PH, not to ambush springbok or gemsbok off a Texas quail-rig with high seats and pads. Shoot from the truck if you want to, but that is not hunting or even close to it. I was suprised the safari operator agreed to have their name in print.

3. The Sanctuary - it is a deer farm in Michigan on about 2300 acres of high fenced, ultra managed deer habitat with an impressive collection of large whitetails. I have hunting on high fenced places of this size and seen what feeding, protection and genetic control can do for horns. It is a world class resort for deer hunters (shooters) and caters to your every whim. It is the ultimate in near garaunteed whitetail horn collecting.

Yes I know, "don't start the high fence debate"
. Yes I know that it will not end. But I have a problem with people praising this place as nirvana or mecca and the holy grail of deer hunting. I disagree. It is not hunting - it is shooting animals specifically bred in an enclosure for big horns. That is all.

I am not sure what I think of SCI after reading this issue or maybe I am just now "aware" of what this organization is about. I understand a lot of good things are done, but when I see the magazine showing off fat-boy hunters, truck shooters, and high fence deer ranches as something special, it makes me wonder.

So you do not like wealthy high fence patrons, people who cannot walk and fat people. You're entitiled to dislike select persons (I suppose) but the topic really doesn't belong in African Hunting.

How about moving this to Miscellaneous and telling us about your real African hunt(s)?

You have my condolences for being coercied into joining an organization you don't like. I'm sorry you were forced to join and wish there were some way to help you in your predicament. Maybe you could just resign and then you wouldn't get the magazine they make you read.

.................

Well folks, we have our marching orders! Everyone stand in line for BulldogMaster's inspection, to see if you are fit for duty in the hunting fields of Africa, or any other place! Only he can give you a pass to the PROPER HUNTING method!

..................DUMB!

Why am I hearing "Dueling Banjos" playing in the background?

I have certainly seen some heavy (obese) appearing men who can still cover a lot of ground while hunting. Don't know if being heavy means you can't walk.

PS- I am not one of them either.

I share some of your concerns and think they are certainly legitimate.

Still, you seem too dogmatic in your views for my tastes and your choice of language is grossly insensitive.

At least we know where you stand.

BM - (no pun intended, well maybe). Take your own advise and simply don't read the articles that seem to offend you. Was "every" article about fat people, high fences and someone shooting from a rest on a vehicle?? Obviously you picked on the ones you thought you could slam and ignored to mention the others. Give me your name and details and I'll see if I can get you a refund from SCI when I am at the Convention in a few weeks. Whinners don't cut it with me, so grow up and carry on somewhere else.

Larry Sellers
Life Member SCI

quote:

I have certainly seen some heavy (obese) appearing men who can still cover a lot of ground while hunting. Don't know if being heavy means you can't walk.

I had a very rotund martial arts teacher who I'm sure went at least 350 and he wasn't a sumo wrestler. You definitely wouldn't want to mess with him. He had flexibility, power and speed you might find a bit hard to believe.

As long as someone enjoys their hunt, does the rest really matter?

However, I will agree that the chances of having a successful hunt increase if the hunter is physically fit.

I still haven’t received my magazine. If you don’t like it, can you mail it to me?

I'm old (61), overweight and can't hump it like I used to... but ten years ago I had a long fall and a not long enough bounce, crushing L-1 and breaking my pelvis. I should have had the sense to change my diet since I can't run any more (I used to do 25 miles a week), but still, that's no excuse.... a reason, but no excuse.

If somebody wants to complain about me, he or she is right. I eat too much, yet, I pay my own way where I go, I realize that I could weigh less and I don't mind a kind reminder occasionally. Fair and balanced, I report, you decide.

Bull, thanks for reminding me that just because I can still suck it up periodically, I won't be able to when I'm 70 unless I get busy losing weight now. Getting back in shape will be a bit harder since I've been busted up, and it (being really overweight) is a real issue... I have to change my habits (damnit, damnit, damnit!)

But, with all my defects, Bull, anytime you want to out walk me after an elephant, I'm game... You'll win I'm sure, but I love hunting those s.o.b.s and somehow I can still kill one occasionally... I even sent around a video to AR guys, just to prove a tired old man can eventually catch up to one of those big old bastards ... I'm on the way to Dallas Safari Club in three hours... nobody let me eat anything! I want top kill more elephants!

Some of us old fat farts don't photo well, but we still try to do it right. Paint with not so broad a brush, maybe?

assclown.

BM: I´m I still allowed to hunt? I weigh 105kgs, I can´t run do to a prosthetic knee but I still enjoy what I call hunting...

Can I? Please?

What is this organization (SCI) about?
Well, they fight for your right to hunt. They fight for fat people's right to hunt too. They support youth hunters. They developed a division called Sables to support women huntresses. They help feed the hungry through Sportsmen Against Hunger. They help the needy oversees with Safari Care bags. They support conservation efforts world wide in addition to all the conservation projects they do in North America. They developed the sensory safari trailers so the blind could participate. They intervene on your behalf when some antihunter wants to end your dove hunt. But I don't think they have a physical fitness criteria you have to meet to be a member. All are welcome here.
The dues you pay to SCI is a small price to pay and is money well spent.

What a condescending ass. Somehow you want to be above everyone else so you can rule from your would be/ wanna be / condescending position. It must be very lonely on your pedestal. First I will say that I personally dont care for high fenced operations myself. That dosnt mean I would ever condemn someone else for their choice of one. I have hunted a couple high fence places and although it wasnt what I considered hunting in the ideals that I try to live by it was fun and can be a very enjoyable recreational event. But I accept it for what it is and get what I can out of it. Many things are what you make them to be. Concentrate on the negative and that is what you will get back. I dont like shooting from vehicles either and as a general rule dont. I certainly wont judge someone else who chooses to do so. Your last statement has some truth in it but is overshadowed by the ignorant biggotry you show. First you wrongly assume that people who are out of shape or overweight somehow dont have the right to the same opportunites you do. Or perhaps you are jealous of their opportunites.I mean come on how could it be right for someone just becsuse they have money get to go on these adventures I mean my god they are fat! I know plenty of people who are fat that would work you under the table. Fat and fit are not mutually exclusive things. There are others like myself who have struggled with weight issues. Dont assume because someone has an issue that they are not working hard to controll it. I am overweight and especially since I hit the back side of fifty have struggled. My job/lifestyle dosnt afford me the time to change more than I can at the moment. How dare you assert that we dont care enough to do this. I can tell you must of us do care but there is only so much we can do at various given points in time. What this is means that I am going to have to struggle more in the field than someone else might. It means that at times the mountains will and have kicked my ass. I would rather come home beaten down and empty handed than to miss the opportunity to try. The day I give up the sports I love is the day they put me 6 feet under and at that I better have my gun or bow or fishing rod in hand. The one and only bit of truth you stated is that the more fit the person is the easier the event and for many more enjoyable. Although true it is still not a full measure of what someone did to get there. It might mean dooing without a new car for several years and or working lots of overtime to be able to pay for such a trip. It means time away from the family both before and during the hunt. I could go on and on but I feel I have made my point. Most of us do what we can, sorry it is not up to your standards

I know some large people who has succesfully climbed high altitude mountain to hunt their mountain reedbuck and other mountain dwelling animals, yes it was exhausting but don't underestimate big people. Some of them are or have been used to their size for a long time and learned to live with it. They can and will walk miles no problem.

You cannot assume that the big people cannot walk and stalk succesfully.
Rather take it out on that specific person in the mag than the rest of the hunters who will do anything work long hours and extra jobs just to get to Africa again. If it means that they don't have time to be super fit it's not the end of the world the end of the world would be not to come to Africa again.

quote:

the end of the world would be not to come to Africa again.

Amen to that!

quote:

Originally posted by BulldogMaster:
2. Ethics- One guy had the gall to write an article about his "Kalahari Roller Coaster" hunt and admitted to "By agreement, I took the first shot, resting the .30-06 across the top of the truck, and angling slightly to the left.....". You go to Africa to hunt on foot, with a tracker and a PH, not to ambush springbok or gemsbok off a Texas quail-rig with high seats and pads. Shoot from the truck if you want to, but that is not hunting or even close to it. I was suprised the safari operator agreed to have their name in print. .

Have you been to the Kalahari doesn't look like it

I will organize you a trip there and we will see how long you last and how many animals you will take on foot and fitt in that thick sand and heat for 8hrs a day and seven days

Safari hunt will you do the dvds. Im sure that some guys that is refered to as fat would love to see it.

If you look at nature you have from Elephants that weigh tons to blue duiker that weighs a few kilos and there is place for them all.
where will you fit in?

Recently I hiked the Grand Canyon. I met this 81 year old hiker on the trail that goes by the name "Maverick". Last year for his 80th birthday he challenged himself to hiking to and from the bottom of the canyon and "rim to rim" 80 times to celebrate 80 years of life on this planet. He explained to me that 80 hikes were way to easy and he up the stakes and completed over 100. This year he plans to beat the record. Hiking to and from the bottom of the canyon is challenging. Here is an article on the Maverick:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/related/152357.php

The bottomline is that there is no excuse to not be in shape. If this 80 year old can do it, so can everyone else. How can anyone disagree with Bulldogmaster? I personally care less if your fat ass requires that you need shoot out of a truck in order to hunt. In addition, if that cannot hit the broad side of a battleship because you never practice with your rifle then run the game over with the truck. But do not portray yourself as the "Great White Hunter."

Bulldogmaster's point is that hunter "integrity" is rapidly decreasing at an alarming rate. If SCI had any balls there would be an asterisk next to the record book with a footnote indicating "These game animals were killed in fence." Call it what it is. Really, would anyone on this forum want in the record book with an asterisk/footnote by there name telling everyone that it was a fenced in hunt?

daleW,

I'll bet you won't fly to Dallas for the DSC Convention this weekend and tell the AR members there that they are too fat and unethical to meet your obviously uninformed standards. I'd be willing to bet my 458 Lott that you'd get your rude, stupid, skinny ass kicked all over the convention hall. Why don't you go join PETA and leave the gentlemen here alone?? It's obvious that you know nothing about hunting, and it's also very clear that you don't belong here. Take a hike!!!!!!!!!

Bulldog,
I think you just stepped on some fat stubby toes.

This is obviously an attempt by loser and his shill to stir up the forum. Listen Mac, I've always been too short for my weight and struggled with it all my life.

But during the course of that fight, I've managed to fly jets on and off aircraft carriers for over 22 years, including Libya, Iraq & Afghanistan, hunted and hunted HARD in Africa as well as here in North America and at 52 and still FAT still manage to run 5-6 miles four times a week and work out. I've always eschewed "internet bravado" what's your story there ace?

I think the line from Patton is probably apropos here "You probably shovel shit in PA" and I wouldn't be surprised if your name ain't "terrence." Get lost asswipe. jorge

quote:

I've always eschewed "internet bravado" what's your story there ace?

Jorge,

People who make statements like “fat boy hunters†usually don’t have much of a story…

Judging others based on appearance shows a lack of maturity usually caused by never having been exposed to any “shit†in their life…

What’s the perfect “Arian†hunter supposed to look like?

What height, weight, age, gender, ………………color?

Are handicapped people allowed to hunt?

I’ve been very strong (Strong Man Competitor) and very sick (Cancer Patient with less than 25% survival rate) in my relatively young lifetime…..

I can honestly say that after my battle I may not be the physical specimen I used to be…

But I’m “stronger†than ever…..

Maybe when they grow up they will learn that you shouldn’t judge someone till you’ve been where they have been…

The big question I have is "Why are we giving this jerk-off the dignity of responding to his ignorant rant?". Cut him loose...

How about this
small men shoots small animals
big men shoots big animals

so bulldogmaster you are onlu allowed a steenbuck.

isnt a bulldog a fat sloppy dog that cant even look after their young?

Well gentlemen you have been given the new rules of conduct, and medical assesment of the members of SCI!

...................Though I agree with some of the things BulldogMaster believes, for myself, I can't speak for others in my poor condition, at age 71 yrs.

The above post makes me wounder if Bull Dog is past his 20s, or at most 30s,and what condition he believes he will be in when he reaches the age of 55 yrs and up, which is the average of folks who hunt Africa!

As I said above,unlike Bulldog, I can only speak for myself, but I have an idea my sittuation, is fairly common amoung that age group. At age 71 yrs I'm a little older than most here, but I'm 5'9" and weigh 208, just completed a string of cancer treatments, and am now going in for a angiogram to see if I need a stint in my heart.

I'd say like most hunters who hunt Africa, they were over 50 yrs old before they got the kids raised, and educated, and could afford to go to Africa for any animal that was important.

Here is the rub with this group of guys, most did all that climbing mountains for sheep, and Elk, long before they got to the age they were when they first went to Africa. In their prime they too looked at old over weight hunters like they shouldn't be allowed to hunt at all. Well up untill the age of about 60 yrs, I could walk the butt off most PHs, and still can walk all day in Africa's heat, at age 71,carrying a 11 lb double rifle, and ammo, but I have to take a little longer to do it.

So I guess all the guys who have to walk slower, and get tired a little sooner, should sit on the porch, and dream about days gone by in the game fields. Never mind the hills they climbed, or the ele/buffalo trails they once could litterly run on for miles, should stay at home, because they have to take a hunt that is a little easier than it was when their bones were still all in one piece, and the organs they have removed because of old age, and cancer were still in place, with eyes that could see like an eagle, and ears that could hear the grass grow!

The old fat hunters, and one young fit hunter are at odds, it seems, in the opinion of BulldogMaster,anyway so I guess us old guys need to simply step aside, and let the young whipper-snappers do the hunting, and foot the Safari industry's bill. Somehow, I don't think there will be a safari industry long if all the old, fat guys save their money for their kids to blow to the wind, when they are gone.

Because SCI realizes there are people who have already paid their dues,when young, and are now old, and in bad shape with a metabilism that quite working properly yrs ago, or from the effects of desease, that many different types of hunting have to be available to those who can no longer climb 6000, or 7000 feet in a short day, and make it back down to camp, without haveing a heart attack. They are somehow a club not worthy of BulldogMaster!

My suggestion is drop your membership, and don't read any of their publications,and leave it to all us old crappers who have been members of SCI probably longer that you have been out of diapers! That'll show them!

I have only one question for Mr BulldogMaster! What is his age, and how long has he been hunting Africa?

High fence is automaticlly a canned hunt (shoot)....Dumb

Anyone whos is over weight, should be denied a hunting license.....Dumb

Anyone over 40 yrs old should stay home, and leave all the game for the young....Dumb

And anyone who goes to Africa, regardless of physical condition, or advanced age should just pay the money, and stay in camp, or better yet, stay out of sight of Mr. BulldogMaster, and let him do the hunting by his rules!


......................BYE



.......

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
How about this
small men shoots small animals
big men shoots big animals

Hrrmmmmmmm

What will be left for me then since the Dinosaurs are no longer walking around

quote:

The bottomline is that there is no excuse to not be in shape. If this 80 year old can do it, so can everyone else.

It is all to easy to make genalizations like this; however, each individual and each situation are different. An 80 yo living in the wilderness with no 10 hour work day and 4 hour daily commute may well be more fit than a younger office worker with a family and no time to spend hours a day working out.

In addition there are genetic and other health reasons for weight and ability variation. It is foolish and rude to criticize general categories of people and it serves no useful purpose. I would bet that all would be in better condition and look better if they could do so.

In terms of high fence and shooting from the vehicle, there may have been circumstances or conditions requiring the hunter to shoot over the top of the truck - that was not clear or explained. Was it over the cab roof or over the hood? Since this is not known, why belabor the point. Additionaly, in some areas of the country people may have the option to hunt high fence areas or not hunt at all. I have not hunted high fenced properties but having a ranch in Texas I know that many of these properties are very large and very difficult to hunt. In most ways it is no different that a truly wild environment. These are, in my mind, very different than hunting in an enclosed 40 acre pasture as is sometimes done in the Eastern US.

Bottom line, the Constitution allows everyone to speak their mind - within limits defined by other laws. We can agree or disagree.

In my case I feel that it is better to keep these kinds of rants (bigotry) to oneself. It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot than to open it and make it clear that you are.

Ain't this interesting...
Opinions vary...
Brian

I pose the question again:

Would anyone from AR forum enter an animal as a trophy into SCI record book if SCI instituted a new policy regarding how the animal was taken? For example, in addition to your name, the classification and the point status of your trophy, SCI will footnote with an asterisk exactly how the animal was harvested.

1. taken from a vehicle, including aircraft

2. taken within the confines of a "fence"

3. taken on free range

Would anyone from this forum have any thoughts if you saw your name with a number 1 or 2 placed by it?

Just because Bulldog deviates from your philosophy or your "truth" doesn't mean that he is incorrect. Listen to what you are saying. The threats or emotion angry outbursts because Bulldog challenges your "doctrine" is absurd.

I personally do not care how someone hunts even if they want to carpet bomb your animals with air strikes. Just do not place yourself in hunting magazines with amazing photos of your trophy with a narrative that compares you to the past great hunters. You are not a modern day hero or "hunting god".

Bulldog has substance to his argument.

Damn! Some of you all are going to be sharing a cell with Mike Vick when the ASPCA catches up with you for the way you beat on the "dog".

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
This is obviously an attempt by loser and his shill to stir up the forum. Listen Mac, I've always been too short for my weight and struggled with it all my life.

But during the course of that fight, I've managed to fly jets on and off aircraft carriers for over 22 years, including Libya, Iraq & Afghanistan, hunted and hunted HARD in Africa as well as here in North America and at 52 and still FAT still manage to run 5-6 miles four times a week and work out. I've always eschewed "internet bravado" what's your story there ace?

I think the line from Patton is probably apropos here "You probably shovel shit in PA" and I wouldn't be surprised if your name ain't "terrence." Get lost asswipe. jorge

Hey jorge, how can you squeeze your wide butt into those carrier launched scooters?

I used to fly with a guy named Mike Brady who was six/ one and must have wieghed 220. He was an A 4 jock. Flew missions over the north for quite a while. When I asked him how he managed to fit into that little scooter, he replied, "Very carefully."

Not everyone can control their weight. Those entrapped into a sedentary lifestyle due to work or environment do not have the opportunity to lose weight oftentimes. Pushing away from the table is one good way to limit your caloric intake and keep your weight down.

I've "hunted" high fence on some 20,000+ acre properties in RSA and once in Florida. I enjoyed the experience. Some guys just do not have the time to spend years hunting that monster buck in Saskatchewan. They can take a weekend and go shoot on a deer ranch. They also usually pay quite a high premium for it.

I prefer fair chase hunting. It's the challenge of the hunt that I enjoy as much or more than the kill. I worked up to my last African trip by walking miles on a friend's 500 acre place for three months before I left, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to do so. Not everyone owns 500 acres of wild country or has access to it.

Getting in shape just makes the hunt much more pleasurable for me, so I do it and I'm lucky to be able to. At 65, keeping up with these young PH's is sometimes a task. I just tell them to slow down and don't leave the old man to the lions.

Each to his own.

BullDogMaster,

Take it up with SCI's Director of Publications, Steve Comus. No one here can do anything to assuage you.

You can always quit SCI and let them know why.

George

Wow. This one's a live wire ain't it...? Frankly, I think most of the members who have responded have valuable points.

I'm not sure BullDogMaster (did I get that right?) has achieved success with his message but it certainly has gotten me to thinking about what that message may be.

1. Re Fat-boy Hunters: seems that in his mind hunting is essentially a physical task where being in some semblance of good physical condition is crtitical. I guess I can see the point if this is accurate. Then again, my dad isn't in great shape but he dumps plenty of ducks out of the sky each season and I believe him to be a duck hunter...

2. Re Ethics: My take is that he thinks one need be in the quarry's environs before touching her off instead of safely tucked away behind the truck. However, the hunter takes the shot he has; ah! maybe that is his point! There's taking the shot one has versus taking the easy shot because one is lazy. What do I know? I'm just trying to imagine what he really means.

3. Re The Sanctuary. Never been although I went to grad school in MI. Never hunted animals in a fenced-in area either come to think of it. Pesonally, it doesn't interest me. Whitetail hunting to me is based on my experiences in Maine - go a little north in this vast place, scout an area and hunt. If you're smarter than he is maybe you'll get a chance to shoot. If you're not, hope someone else in the group shoots one so meat gets passed out for all. I think one ought to go into a wild animal's home and hunt him on the animal's terms. Winner takes all, so to speak.

It strikes me that our author is trying to tell us he is of the old school - go into the wilderness, study yoru prey animal and outthink him in his own home then take his life as quickly and mercifully as possible. Perhaps he sees the "Fat-boy hunter" or the "truck shooter" or the "Sanctuary" hunter as failing to adhere to the "sporting" ethic.

In his book, "Death in the Long Grass", the late Peter Capstick writes at the end of the Foreword:

"In hunting big game, facing danger is the height of the hunting ethic. Any bloody fool can, without encountering the smallest modicum of risk, murder a bull elephant at 200 yards with a lung shot. This is not elephant hunting, but elephant killing. Yet, to walk for a week, thirsty and footsore over hot, dry, thorn-spiked terrain, disappointed a dozen times by small or broken tusks, frightened witless by the female of the species or seemingly unshootable bulls, and then finally to track down a big tusker in heavy cover for a confrontation at less than fifteen yards-well, that is elephant hunting. That is man against himself, the last and purest of the challenges that made us men, not animals."

500Grains sets out the anti position quite succinctly when he posits, "As long as someone enjoys their hunt, does the rest really matter?" (BTW, I am not suggesting this is his opinion, but simply that it seems to sum up better than anyone else's post the flip side to BullDogMaster's stance). I think our newest SCI member's point is that he sides with Capstick and believes there is a right way and a wrong way (It's just not done, Old Boy.) to hunt. If that is his case, I can agree to a point; just not sure what the "right" and "wrong" ways are under all circumstances. If food is for thought, his post is like a double quarter pounder with cheese...

Dale: If I'm not mistaken, SCI has a specific category "estate hunts" for whitetails taken from high fence operations such as Sanctuary. I don't understand what your complaint is if the animals are not being compared unfairly. By the way my state has almost no baiting permitted. I want SCI to create a baited versus non baited category also. Just kidding!!!

quote:

It strikes me that our author is trying to tell us he is of the old school - go into the wilderness, study yoru prey animal and outthink him in his own home then take his life as quickly and mercifully as possible. Perhaps he sees the "Fat-boy hunter" or the "truck shooter" or the "Sanctuary" hunter as failing to adhere to the "sporting" ethic.

The author of the original post stated three separate points of contention that he has with SCI….

1. Fat people
2. Ethics
3. Sanctuary

Items 2 & 3 are ethical issues unto themselves and ultimately have to be sorted out on an individual basis….

One mans ethics are another mans????????????

But that is not what created the backlash he has received….

His obvious disdain for the “Fat Boy Hunter†is what got him burnt…

This in turn gave correlation to fat people only shooting animals from trucks while on canned hunts…..

Do fat people not have ethics????

From the Pine Tree State to the Mountain State:

I took him to have ethical concerns with all three since the "Fat-boy Hunter" is violating some sort of "sporting" ethic by not being in shape. Dunno. Maybe we should ask him for clarification.

Dear BullDogMaster: do you not like fat people? If so, please outline your position for the rest of us.

If being fat does lend itself to consideration and discussion as to whether a fat person can be an ethical hunter, perhaps then the self-aware fat hunter would simply amend his hunting style to allow him to take advantage of his abilities rather than worry about his limitations i.e. more stand hunting than still hunting, for example. Wouldn't that solve it for you, BullDogMaster?