Jorge,
I agree with you. It would be wrong to catagorize "all" shooting from the truck as unethical, however, the SCI article made the practice sound like it was the norm and the way to hunt in that area. I got riled up over that part.

I would likely do what your friend did.

quote:

I did not see where Bulldog says he does not like hefty people, just that part of the hunting experience is preparing by getting shape.

dogcat

I agree 100%...

I'm currently working out and getting in shape for a hunt I'm planning....

BDM's problem was his delivery...

There is a difference between being "Frank" and being "Dick"........

I have had the good fortune to have been able to go to Africa twice now and I am planning my third trip now.
Having said that it is curious to me how, if taken to the tenth degree, how anyone could ever think of hunting Africa, out West in America, or anywhere else that has thousands or millions of acres of land to cover in persuit of whatever they are going after. If you were to follow some of the "logic" displayed here you would have to come to the conclusion that you MUST leave the camp fire pre dawn on foot without compass or any other convenience with you. Then walk until nightfall set up your camp fire and do it all over again the next day. Well, I have hunted several places and yes there have been fences. At no time have I hunted or seen a fence that any and all game could not go through, under or over in one bound. Boundary fences are what they are. But these "fences" did not hold animals from freely roaming in and out of the land they enclosed. If this was, then we could not of gone for days without seeing what we were looking for, but to just drive off to point ABC and then shoot out of the window.
Hunting from a truck or just using a rest? Sitting on or in a truck or other vehicle, shooting from the window, and the like,,, I don't think so. Using the hood or other part for a rest to make an ethical one shot kill I don't see the problem. If this is a problem then is it unethical to use a tree branch, a rock or any other rest? Also, if you have ever watched any of the "hunting" shows they always seem to show "hunters" riding in some kind of powered vehicle, then after spotting tracks etc. they then take off on foot to take up the chase. Is this unethical to use a vehicle to do this? Should they also leave the trackers in camp? After all they are hunters, shouldn't they be able to follow track un aided? Just how far does anyone want to take this?
I guess all I am saying is that everyone has to give some slack in what was posted at the begining of this thread. Not in how he said what he said,( which I to disagree with) but the entire article that he quoted was not posted, just his opinion of the article. Nobody knows the story behind this other than a few sentences that were first posted. Anyone can tear apart anything. Or make the obscure into something it ain't. As far as the fat part, the age part, the physical restrictions part, sign me up as I fall into all of those catagories. Yet I still hunt my way a little slower, a little longer than what it took me years ago. With snow white hair, what ever of it is left, collecting social security I have paid my dues and I will contiunue to hunt as best I can. My day will come that I won;t be able to even do this, but that day has not come as of yet. So I will get out my loudenblaster and do my best.

Do any of you get the feeling that BDM exhibits frustration born of envy. One wonders if he cannot afford to do any of these hunts and sees a bunch of older men some of whom are in seemingly poor physical condition doing things he can't do and thinks life isn't fair. These older guys have likely done all the things he has or seems to have done and most of them can likely walk all day. Many of them shoot well which obviates having to run in either direction. I also agree with 5000!

quote:

Do any of you get the feeling that BDM exhibits frustration born of envy. One wonders if he cannot afford to do any of these hunts and sees a bunch of older men some of whom are in seemingly poor physical condition doing things he can't do and thinks life isn't fair.

Guess what you're saying is that BDM is a Democrat. Ouch.

Could be true- But perhaps he is young and strong , works out regularly, hunts from the ground and earns his trophies the hard way. Because of this he feels repulsed when he sees chest thumping from someone who chooses to take the easy route.

I don't know the guy so I do not know which describes him best?

I better fit the description by eyedoc. I am not jealous of anyone hunting anywhere. I hunt in many places but have yet to enjoy Africa. Am going in 2009 and am in shape to hunt hard and long if needed.

My "flare up" was with an organization that publishes a story about a guy that is too out of shape to recover a sheep he shot (his guide did the recovery). I do not back down from my outrage at this and I would like to think the members of SCI would see my point.

Shooting from a truck while cruising dunes is not my idea of hunting either. THat is not the "African experience" as far as I have read in hunt reports on AR. Read the article yourself and tell me if I mis-read or misinterpreted it. I have no issue with using a truck or plane as transport or while looking for tracks. I have issue with using it to hunt from with no physical infirmities other than being fatigued easily.

Sorry to have stirred many of you up.

/

Bulldog Master:

This quite old (and retired) hunter believes your remarks show a right attitude about hunting. I also suspect that you have struck a sore spot in suggesting that "hunters" could take off a few pounds and get into shape before hunting some magnificent animals.

Bulldogmaster:


Do not apologize to anyone in this forum for your comments. You are dead-on with your points. The AR members who are outraged by your comments cannot see their own toes if they look down.

And you are correct SCI needs to implement and enforce new policies regarding fair chase. The exception is the true disabled. Obesity is not a disability. We all know you are right, that's what hurting them the most. But it is a money game, and we all know money trumps integrity every time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BulldogMaster:
1. "......Fat-boy Hunters"
2. "Ethics"
3. "The Sanctuary" QUOTE]

I am an SCI Life Member, and damn proud of it. "Bull----Master," might be a better title. No strictly hunting organization has done more for hunters and conservation worldwide than SCI. And this thanks to the foresight, imagination, and dedication of its founder C.J. McElroy.

"Fat boy hunters." What a malodorous statement. One's physical condition is an individual choice. And to mock someone who tends to the large side, shows a lack of character. Fat or skinny, tall or short, old or young, all are welcome in the hunting community I belong to without disparaging comments.

But he goes on....disparaging those who choose to shoot from a vehicle - a practice widely and legally engaged in in many areas. I do not consider that a true hunt, more a collecting, except in the case of disabled hunters; I guess in the mind of this BSMaster they should be precluded from the activity.

And then he goes on to disparage those who choose to hunt the Sanctuary. I have no issue with that location, nor do I disagree with the practice for those who choose to do so. But this BSMAster's attempt to set limits on, and judge certain members of, the hunting community seems disingenuous to me.

And so, my reading this post left me with one lasting impression.....

I'm one of those who have a bit of trouble seeing more than just the toes of my shoes. I'm also 71. My problem isn't because I am a glutton -- my wife eats more than I and doesn't gain weight.

Minor exercise raises my heart rate to an erratic two- to three-times normal, causing my blood pressure to crash to ridiculously low levels. Medicines to control this problem (and my congestive heart failure) cause me to retain water.

Unfortunately, despite diuretics and my thyroid medicines, I am as bloated as the Pillsbury Dough Boy no matter how much I pee.

To convert my heart rate to normal, I get zapped with an electrical shock seven or eight times a year. I also am pre-diabetic and should be breathing oxygen out of bottles (which I refuse to do).

Will this keep me from hunting? The answer is not just no, it's hell no!

Bill Quimby

quote:

Will this keep me from hunting? The answer is not just no, it's hell no!

I think hunters should stop critisizing each other, and learn to stick together. Sure, if someone is breaking the law, reprimand them, but as a whole, if something is legal, within the general public's norm of acceptable, acceptable to the landowner/ PH (can be government as well), and above all, the animal you are after recives the necciacry respect, what is the problem?

BDM, what holler are you in, if one is to make generalities, well you just don't want to people to classify your as an inbreed hill billy do you or maybe you are. Then again you maybe from that cosmopolitian area know as Morganhole, eh.

To other AR members I appoligize for that rant, you know that is not like me.

quote:

2. Ethics- One guy had the gall to write an article about his "Kalahari Roller Coaster" hunt and admitted to "By agreement, I took the first shot, resting the .30-06 across the top of the truck, and angling slightly to the left....."

This does not bother me terribly, especially if they are not physically able to get around. However, if you actually read the article, they did not just shoot from the truck, but pursued/chased the animals in a specially built truck/buggy. Up and down sand dunes, trying to surprise or get "down wind" (in front of) the oryx and springbok so the hunters hanging on the back could take the shot before the animals ran in another direction. If they were not able to get setup in time, off they go again.

All shots except one were in excess of 180 meters, and they inadvertently killed a pregnant female in the ensuing confusion. The article states that the outfitter considers it "fair chase", and basically that this is the only way to shoot the game in the dunes. I think most hunters would have a problem with this.

This story starts on page 102. On page 105 the title of the article is "The Elite Meet at the Sanctuary", referring to the SCI elete members. Sort of does create an impression...

Hello Die Ou Jagter,
I noticed you are curious about just which "holler" the fellow is located in West Virginia. Not sure you have a need to know that information and may well be beyond your rank and pay grade. There are some "hollers" in West Virginia you would not want to visit and can tell you one thing for sure, if you did visit them and shot game from a vehicle, have an uncased gun in the vehicle, gun leaning against a vehicle, and were caught doing so, there would be no discussion of ethics, how fat or slim you might be, what they do in Africa or elsewhere, but an interesting trip to the local county facility.
It would appear that the robust defense of the SCI and it's magazine are a bit along the lines of that saying by some English writer/playwright that "ye protest too much."
The fellow does not agree with the SCI magazine article plain and simple. You think he is wrong, but none of that provides reason for harsh insults, name calling, wanting to know where he is located, references to "deliverence"(could be those inquiring may want to visit -really visit!- those hollers??)
Someone asked the question if game/trophys taken from fenced in areas, shot from a vehicle , chased down by a vehicle, hunted from a helicopter, etc. are so indicated in the records kept by SCI?? Perhaps you or others could shed some light on this topic.
Now, if you or others really want to know which hollow I live in, not a problem, hell, I will draw you a map. Not a problem at all.

quote:

that this is the only way to shoot the game in the dunes

I beg to differ on the standpoint of this particular outfitter. You can hunt on foot in the dunes in the Kalahari. Ask any of the guys on this forum who has hunted there with me.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
BDM, what holler are you in, if one is to make generalities, well you just don't want to people to classify your as an inbreed hill billy do you or maybe you are. Then again you maybe from that cosmopolitian area know as Morganhole, eh.

To other AR members I appoligize for that rant, you know that is not like me.

Parchment Valley area in Jackson County. Born in Wheeling. I am not from the "city", but grew up a little different from many posters on AR.

I take no pleasure in starting this "storm". However, I still believe that a guy should recover his own sheep and be in shape to do that type of hunt. I also believe it is wrong to shoot from the truck (I understand handicap situations and non-self inflicted health issues). I read a book by a German guy in Namibia that walks your legs off hunting elephants. If you think my "rant" was a bit much, you should try out this guy. I would hunt with him in a heartbeat and fight to my last breath to not let him out walk me.

Anyway, I appreciate most of the comments. THe poster Bill C seemed to get what I was talking about on shooting from the truck.

Oh well....

My God,dsiteman did you not see the faces. As to hollows well I live in one only in Pa.. My wife is from WV and I hunt in the hollows of WV on her family's farm, I also hunt the deep hollows of SW Virginia (damn the evenings are fun with a few dram of Shine). I just didn't care for the generalizations. As one who has had what some would call "self inflicted" handicapes. I have lost 70 lbs in the last 6 mo and am still working my way down and had a knee replaced a few years ago. I have hunted they way some don't like but then that is my business and I feel comfortable with what I have done. JMO and that is all any of us has. Opinions are like AH every one has one, eh.

Hello Die Ou Jagter,
I fully understand about the knees, going next month to deal with that small issue and then I will be "hard to hold..." Also well know about the dram of shine or white lightn'n. Not just one dram, but a full quart jar usually lasts from dinner till about midnight at the camp and then we do sleep well must say. Have been told that it is perfectly legal for one to brew up to I believe 50 gallons of 'shine per year for personal consumption, never really counted the gallons, just always have enough. Can't sell it of course for you would be cheating the government out of their well deserved taxes. Try and not to do anymore self destruction, not a good thing and need to follow my own advise at times. As you say, one can always have his or her opinions on topics.

dsiteman, good for you and I hope all goes well for you. Maybe some day I will get to the Banks of Kanawha and we can share a dram of what might be available.

Hunting Ethics will always be an individual choice. If you are using anything other than a sharp stick or a rock, than you are taking advantage of modern convience. Rifle, muzzleloader, compound bow. Did you wear shoes? How did you arrive at the hunting fields? Car, Plane? Most of the 100 lb elephants in the 30s-60s were done with the use of spotter planes. I don't like fences, you can if you want. I won't hunt South Africa, you can if you want. If it's legal than do it. I may not. I may try to educate you as to my viewpoint, but I won't criticize you if you are not breaking the law. Why not get off each others asses and concentrate on real threats to our way of life.

Jeff

Bwana, not all RSA properties are high fenced. Last year I hunted for Vaal Rehbok on a large cattle ranch in the Drakensburg mts. and it was not high fenced.

Whoa,

Guys , give the man some space, all of us are opinionated about something,

Firstly, I am a " fat " PH, from South Africa and Mozambique, So being called that does not mean I have too like it, but is true, begiining of season after a good Holiday and 2 months of USA bad living ( read Burger King and Wendy's) I suffer like a maniac too get fit again.

Shooting from a truck, well it has been done since the day of the first vehicle came out all,over the world, East Africa even called them "SHOOTING BRAKES "how they called something that moved a brake ??

Fenced hunting certainly has it's place in the world, especially for conservation and management purposes, I have a couple of thousand acres in South Africa that I have been managing severely for the last 7 years and the trophies now coming off it is awesome, I also have 900 000 acres in Mozambique, in Zambezi valley, and I wisehd I could control it too the same extent, it would be paradise.

I would like too re iterate what KarlS said , and I have attached a picture or 2 , I hunt on foot in the Kalahari, yes we do not shoot as many animals, but my my, that is my way of relaxing, nothing like some desert sand seeping through a pair of old worn hunting boots,
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/kwansafaris/?act...s/Springbok.jpg<a href="http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/kwansafaris/?action=view¤t=Shit.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/kwansafaris/Shit.jpg" border="0" alt="Shit"></a> http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/kwansafaris/ColdKalaharitentcamp.jpg

<a href="http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/kwansafaris/?action=view¤t=ColdKalaharitentcamp.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/kwansafaris/ColdKalaharitentcamp.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

EUREKA,

After trying for so frigging long I finally have a damn picture posted, sorry about all the attempts guys, I was just bent on getting it done today

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Buldogmaster:

"hunting" the red dunes of the Kalahari and storming dunes on the back of a 4x4 is as much hunting Africa as is what some percieve it to be during the hayday of the classic hunting in east Africa.

Fact is that Subsaharan Africa presents the hunter with an endless variety of natural biomes, South Africa has around 130 give or take and each presents a different scenario and effects a different hunting ethic.

You are most welcome to try a do a walk and stalk in the Kalahari, on a 2 week Safari? methinks after the second red dune you will certainly be calling for that pick-up

Alf

I disagree with your comment also. I have done a 5 day back pack hunt into the Nambib Desert at NambibRand for Gemsbok and a 5 day backpack hunt for Mt Zebra in the Gamsberg Mts.

They were great hunts. Among the very best hunting I have had. We didn't see a lot of animals compared to a Cruiser Safari but we saw enough to keep things interesting.

Neither hunts was any tougher than a Couse Deer Hunt in Arizona or a Sheep Hunt in Alaska.

My limited experience in African Hunting, Tanzania and Zambia 78-82 and Zim 83, says over half of the animals taken were either out of the truck or spotted and stalked less than 100 yards from the truck. Some people can justify that, but then some people justify almost anything.

Along Bulldong's previous post:

Why hasn't he been to Africa yet...is he too lazy to save the funds to go?

I saved for years and had the goal to hunt africa before i was 30. Yes, i did it after much hard work and sacrifice. Maybe i shouldn't have been allowed to hunt because i was too young. Or maybe bulldong isn't "committed" enough??

quote:

Originally posted by Kwan:
EUREKA,

After trying for so frigging long I finally have a damn picture posted, sorry about all the attempts guys, I was just bent on getting it done today

Great shot, Walter. Well worth the wait. looks like you're working for your dinner there...

quote:

Originally posted by SilentT:
Along Bulldong's previous post:

Why hasn't he been to Africa yet...is he too lazy to save the funds to go?

I saved for years and had the goal to hunt africa before i was 30. Yes, i did it after much hard work and sacrifice. Maybe i shouldn't have been allowed to hunt because i was too young. Or maybe bulldong isn't "committed" enough??

As we all know, there are some really well-off types on AR, and everything in between. I have to scrape nickels to eat and work up loads and equip myself for my next safari, and it doesn't bother me that some guys don't.

I don't eat enough to gain wieght, and if BDM really wants to go to Africa, he can. He just has to want to do it and work it out in his budget. I'd rather eat burger and hunt Buff than eat steak and hunt whitetail. But that's just me.

jetdrve, I like to eat burgers and steaks and hunt Africa and back yard whitetails. It took me until I was 60 to go to Africa, you know education of the kids (priority #1), mtg paid etc. now it is my turn, eh.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
jetdrve, I like to eat burgers and steaks and hunt Africa and back yard whitetails. It took me until I was 60 to go to Africa, you know education of the kids (priority #1), mtg paid etc. now it is my turn, eh.

Yeah, I can relate. I spent a lot of time working there but made my first hunt when I was 64. Went back the following year and am going back next year. I'll be a geriatric Buff hunter until everything goes south and all I will have to do then is hang out on AR and reminisce. And I have a freezer full of whitetail to alleviate the burger diet now and then...