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Nick- I think you have summed up "our" position quite nicely. Long range for some people is not long range for others. Depends upon the ammount of practice and raw shooting ability that the hunter has. My own self imposed limits are apparently higher than Will's or Smallfry's, and that's fine. We all pay our money and take our choice as to what caliber to use and how to use it. I have also went on many hunts and never pulled the trigger for one reason or another. After watching the price of guided hunting go sky high I decided I needed to become a proefficient long range marksman so as to increase my chances of success. I'm sorry, but I cannot afford to go on countless guided hunts, so when a reasonable opportunity comes up I'm going to take it. I believe that I have paid my dues in going empty enough times! And I still have hunts where no shot worth taking is offered, so being able and willing to shoot long range is no guarantee of success. Much diligent practice and literally thousands of rounds of ammo has been burned up to achieve the level of proefficiency that I demanded of myself. And the rifles, well let's just say that they are not average, over the counter weapons. And, you don't do this leaning against a tree or off of one knee. It has to be the perfect situation, little or no wind, broadside target, everything HAS TO BE PERFECT or no shot. The rest has to be absolutely solid, etc etc. This is not something I do in haphazard fashion. Maybe that's why I can do it? [This message has been edited by John S (edited 07-24-2001).] | |||
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Will... Its no one but Sledgehammer that has offended me. To attack someone personaly on this forum about their personal life or habits is just plain silly. I believe nickudu, and have no problem with him. Secondly: These Forums would be pretty pathetic if each and every one of us could not speak our mind. Mind you... it is childish to attack someone about their personal lives, SLEDGEHAMMER. Other then that I have no problem telling me I am wrong or that my rifle is not worth a sqwat. Nickudu I agree... I shoot as many rabbits, ground sqrls, and coyotes as much as I can. I am happy that I know 400 yards is my limit(ethicly) on large game... because I use to not have a limit. Also trying to get close just makes me feel better as a hunter. I would say that judging others at the two ranges I shoot at I am a fairly good shot, and being a student allows me free time during the day. I shoot usualy 2-3 days out of every week. The funny thing is... that I will shoot at varmits much farther... and not many large animals are hit afar because every chance I get I stalk closer and take'em or spook'em. Best of luck smallfry | |||
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There's an old saying that seems to cover this argument- "The more I practice, the luckier I get" Any questions?- Sheister | |||
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Why Sheister I'm proud of you ... your conclusion of this thread was downright "Atkinsonian".  | |||
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Mike, The old surplus 4831 better known as 4350 Data Powder, if thats what you were using, could have been going bad as much of it has due to poor storage over the years. Mine is still in the stainless steel container and wooden box marked us army...Its bright and shiney and smells very strong... I do know that I can get more of it in a case with less pressure and I have little trouble getting 3000 plus out of my 300 H&H and I have gotten considerably more but case life got very short...I also use the old Jack O'Connor load in my 270 of 62 grs of 4350 Data powder (old surplus H-4831)for 3200 plus a smidgeon in my 26" gun...can't get that with todays powder very easy.... I have never tried the 4831 in the 300 Win., so I cannot comment on it..I always used about 76 grs. of RL-22 in the 300 Win Mag with a 180 Nosler.... ------------------ | |||
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As to long range range shooting which I am as guilty as can be over the years and have made some very long shots indeed...I have witnessed a whole bunch of long shots over the years and anyone that thinks deer are not killed at even 800 yards hasn't done much hunting and has read way to many Hunting magazines..It happens all the time, particularly in the arid Southwest and rimrock country..Many a deer has zigged when he shoulda zagged... But in all honesty I have to say that the better shot you become the more restrictive you should be on yourself for the following reason: An excellent shot will hit the animal every time at long range, but where will he hit it is the question. ------------------ | |||
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An aside if interested: Most scope manufactures will provide you the distance, inches, between the heavy posts of their duplex reticles @ 100 yards @ full power. You can verify their data by simply placing a yard stick on your target with the 18" mark on bull. Once known, simply extrapolate what the inches are for 200 - 500 yards, at the same power setting. Verify, these also, if you wish, by placing printer paper of known size on the horizontal plane of "bull" so you can readily see how the "gap" from post to post or crosshair intersect to post, relates to your printer paper. Knowing a mature muley buck may be 18" to 22" vertically at the shoulder, one can get a pretty good feel for how far away he is standing without any extraneous equipment. I take this one step further by using only the inches from the crosshair intersect to the 12 o'clock post, as this makes the holding point for the more distant shots easier to determine. Once this system is used a while, the time involved to figure your hold and squeeze off can be mere seconds. Sticking to the same scope from rifle to rifle only makes things easier as one can always have the same top magnification to work with. I own four Leupold 2.5-8x scopes and this is one of the reasons why. | |||
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Ray, I am not sure but I think the old 4831 was used originally in some sort of 20 mm cannon. Back in the 60s in Australia, that 4831 and the powder used to load Canadian military 303s was all we used. That powder was called 4740 and was about like 3031. Last timeI saw the 4831 used was a couple of years ago and it had started to go off. Of course other tins of it could be different. Some of the best powder I have ever seen was pulled from some 30/06 military ammo about 15 years ago. It looked and acted similar to 4320. It did 3450 f/s with 110 Sierras in M70 Fweight 22 inch barrels in the 270. Mike | |||
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I'm hunting plainsgame in August with a Win Model 70 Featherweight .300 WSM. Rifle is reliable and handles well. Leupold 2.5-8x scope. Handloads are Sierra 200 SBT at 2900 fps giving 1/2 MOA accuracy at 200 yards. I can hear the howls already over the Sierra bullet. It's accurate, and reasonable $$$ for lots of practice. Last year's hunt I used the non-premium Hornady spirepoints in .270 and .338, all one-shot kills, Steenbok to Zebra. So to prove the point all over again, it's Sierra's turn in the box. Will advise as to the results. Good shooting. | |||
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KuduKing, What animals did you use the 270 and Hornadies on. Mike | |||
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quote: Mike: Springbok at 30 yards, Impala at 170 yards, Blesbok at 300 yards, Black Wildebeest at 120 yards and Warthog at 95 yards. All with 150 gr bullet at 2900 fps. [This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 07-25-2001).] | |||
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Kuduking....as I understand it, the 180gr in the WSM does about 2960 fps what kind of load are you using to get 2900 fps with the 200 grain bullet..doesn't it take up a lot of powder space? | |||
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quote: DB: The loading data is rather sparse, but Winchester and Hodgdon have data on their websites. Accurate Arms has data but their website is somewhat user hostile, and you have to use snail-mail to get their loading sheet. The Winchester data does not go over 180 grains in bullet weight and uses W760 powder. I loaded and shot over 100 rounds in load development with this powder and it stinks in this cartridge, not to mention the fact that I could not safely come close to their listed powder charges. In Bob Hagel's great old book, Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter, he published tests with various powders at temperature extremes. W760 turned up a horrible performance and in that regard apparently little has changed in 23 years. My loads spread over 100 fps between 90 F. and 70 F., and pressures went cuckoo at the higher temperature. I tried H4350 and got outstanding results with the 200 grain Sierra SBT and good results with the Nosler 220 grain Partition. With the 200 SBT my SD is only 8 and the velocity is consistent over teh range of temperatures mentioned. There is plenty of room for propellant in the case with only very light compression, if at all. I can't tell you the powder charge as I don't want to be accused of blowing up someone's rifle. Suffice to say that it is perfectly safe in my rifle and is in fact 1.5 grains below max, FOR MY PARTICULAR RIFLE. The Hodgdon data on their website unfortunately was tested with the WLRM primer, which is the Winchester magnum large rifle. Even Winchester does not recommend the use of that primer with their W760 ballpowder loads, listing instead the WLR standard large rifle primer. I agree with WInchester's assessment. The WLR primer is hotter than some other "magnum" primers to begin with. Add the facts of a relatively short powder column and a powder charge below 70 grains, and a magnum primer is not necessary. In other published tests of a 7mm Rem Mag, substituting a WLRM for WLR primer raised pressure 3,200 psi in a 66 grain load. I used the WLR primer, not the magnum version. The pressures obtained with the WLR are lower with the same powder charge than are listed in the Hodgdon data using the WLRM. The bottom line is that by substituting a WLR primer in the .300 WSM, a somewhat heavier powder charge than listed can still be within safe limits in a given rifle. [This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 07-26-2001).] | |||
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MIke, Old surplus 4841 (4350 Data Powder) had a burning rate about like RL-22, or Norma MRP... Normally you could use 3 or 4 grains more of it than standard H4831, so maybe short core would be close....It was a cannon powder and Jack O'Connor made it famous..You cannot get enough of it in a case to hurt a gun in the 270, 30-06 or 300 H&H, most old timer scouped and tapped and scoup....velocity was high and pressures were almost non existant.. O'Conner used 63 grs. and put in print 62 grs to be safe with his 270 using 130's and 150's..... ------------------ | |||
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Ray, That is exactly how we use to load 270s, with a dipper. Back in the 60s and early 70s when 4831 was the main powder out here, a lot of 270 Improveds were made and that was to be able to use the old 4831 with 100 Hornadies as the 270 was not a big enough case for the old 4831, especially with 100 grainers. Th e62 grains was OK. In a Sako 270 that I owned in 1968 (my first "real rifle") I used 60 grains and Winchester Super X brass. Only neeck sized with a locally made straight line tool. Fired 2000 shots from 120 cases. Some cases were lost in the bush, so probably effectively used 100 cases. Primer pockets were fine after 20 shots. Although in my opinion brass was much harder years ago than what is sold now. Mike | |||
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Mike 375, You bring back memories ... I also had the "Pre-Garcia" L61 (?) Sako in .270 and it was about the most inherently accurate rifle I have ever owned in factory form. My final loads were also neck-sized-only but I was always able to beat the old 4831 powder loads with IMR 4831. 62 grains of the Hogedon gave 3200 with most any 130 grainer and 60 grains of the IMR gave 3300 (true) with 130 Sierra boatails. My longest shots on "big game" were with this set up. We used to laugh at the "core separation" of the Sierras taking place even out at 4 and 500 yards! One day, a fellow at the shooting range offered me about 2x what I had in it so I let it go. I have been VERY lucky with rifles through the years and have had two Brownings in 7 Mag that approached this type of accuracy. I miss the Sako but I still remember it was quite a heavy bugger to tote around the mountains all day. | |||
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Nickudu Sakos use to be the standard "good" rifle in Australia. That has changed somewht with the newer Sako. Also Winchester Australia was the importer in more recent times, which did not hepl. We use to be able to buy every part of a Sako. A common purhcase was the chambered and fitted barrels. The standard "good" rifle in Australia was a Sako 270 with a 6X Pecar scope and a Sako 222 with an 8 X 56 Kahles for pro shooting of a night time. If shooting pigs and kangaroos is a sin, especially kangaroos, then I will be in hell for a long time Mike | |||
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Mike 375, I have often wished that I could "sin" to that extent using such cartridges. I'm certain Australia has had its' share of phenomenal game shots, through the years. As a young man, I dreamt of moving there in response to the "Overseas Work" opportunities regularly posted at the back of the "Outdoor Life" magazines. Varmint and feral animal shooting was all the rage back then and still is today, it appears. Quite the place, indeed, for a young lover of rifles to grow up! | |||
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Nickudu, In relation to this threads topic, one of the things you learn if you shoot a lot, is that trajectory does not seem to count for much. As we say down here "you get onto them" I have probably shot a similar number of roos with the 270, 308, 300 Win and 375. The strange part is that I think my "hits to shots fired ratio" is probably best with the 308 and 375. I suspect that part of the reason is the slower calibers have more feel and you get used to holding for range to some extent at the 250 yard distance. Once they are out past 400 you need to hold over with all of them. Mike | |||
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Thoes old Sako's , the ones with the Mauser cocking piece just added new meaning to the word "slick"...I still have one on a L-461 round top action that I built into a 6x45mm about 20 years ago...I love that little 5 Lb. jewell that shoots wee tiny groups....I built it to look like a scaled down big bore Holland and Holland so when hunting rabbits or rockchucks I felt like I was hunting buff..I've killed a share of coyotes and deer with it using the 75 gr. Barnes X...Love them Sakos. ------------------ | |||
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