[This message has been edited by John S (edited 07-24-2001).]

Secondly: These Forums would be pretty pathetic if each and every one of us could not speak our mind. Mind you... it is childish to attack someone about their personal lives, SLEDGEHAMMER. Other then that I have no problem telling me I am wrong or that my rifle is not worth a sqwat.

Nickudu I agree... I shoot as many rabbits, ground sqrls, and coyotes as much as I can. I am happy that I know 400 yards is my limit(ethicly) on large game... because I use to not have a limit. Also trying to get close just makes me feel better as a hunter. I would say that judging others at the two ranges I shoot at I am a fairly good shot, and being a student allows me free time during the day. I shoot usualy 2-3 days out of every week. The funny thing is... that I will shoot at varmits much farther... and not many large animals are hit afar because every chance I get I stalk closer and take'em or spook'em.

Best of luck smallfry

"The more I practice, the luckier I get"

Any questions?- Sheister

I do know that I can get more of it in a case with less pressure and I have little trouble getting 3000 plus out of my 300 H&H and I have gotten considerably more but case life got very short...I also use the old Jack O'Connor load in my 270 of 62 grs of 4350 Data powder (old surplus H-4831)for 3200 plus a smidgeon in my 26" gun...can't get that with todays powder very easy....

I have never tried the 4831 in the 300 Win., so I cannot comment on it..I always used about 76 grs. of RL-22 in the 300 Win Mag with a 180 Nosler....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

But in all honesty I have to say that the better shot you become the more restrictive you should be on yourself for the following reason:

An excellent shot will hit the animal every time at long range, but where will he hit it is the question.
A sorry shot will just miss every time at long range. so no problem.
Therefore the better shot may indeed wound more animals than the sorry shot..
For that reason I have limited my shooting to 350-400 yds in my later years.....and 400 requires a very steady rest and ideal conditions and of course the target makes a difference. An Elk at 400 is a much easier target than a whitetail..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I am not sure but I think the old 4831 was used originally in some sort of 20 mm cannon.

Back in the 60s in Australia, that 4831 and the powder used to load Canadian military 303s was all we used. That powder was called 4740 and was about like 3031.

Last timeI saw the 4831 used was a couple of years ago and it had started to go off. Of course other tins of it could be different.

Some of the best powder I have ever seen was pulled from some 30/06 military ammo about 15 years ago. It looked and acted similar to 4320. It did 3450 f/s with 110 Sierras in M70 Fweight 22 inch barrels in the 270.

Mike

I can hear the howls already over the Sierra bullet. It's accurate, and reasonable $$$ for lots of practice. Last year's hunt I used the non-premium Hornady spirepoints in .270 and .338, all one-shot kills, Steenbok to Zebra. So to prove the point all over again, it's Sierra's turn in the box.

Will advise as to the results. Good shooting.

What animals did you use the 270 and Hornadies on.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike375:
KuduKing,

What animals did you use the 270 and Hornadies on.

Mike

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Mike:

Springbok at 30 yards, Impala at 170 yards, Blesbok at 300 yards, Black Wildebeest at 120 yards and Warthog at 95 yards. All with 150 gr bullet at 2900 fps.

[This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 07-25-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by DB Bill:
Kuduking....as I understand it, the 180gr in the WSM does about 2960 fps what kind of load are you using to get 2900 fps with the 200 grain bullet..doesn't it take up a lot of powder space?

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DB:

The loading data is rather sparse, but Winchester and Hodgdon have data on their websites. Accurate Arms has data but their website is somewhat user hostile, and you have to use snail-mail to get their loading sheet.

The Winchester data does not go over 180 grains in bullet weight and uses W760 powder. I loaded and shot over 100 rounds in load development with this powder and it stinks in this cartridge, not to mention the fact that I could not safely come close to their listed powder charges.

In Bob Hagel's great old book, Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter, he published tests with various powders at temperature extremes. W760 turned up a horrible performance and in that regard apparently little has changed in 23 years. My loads spread over 100 fps between 90 F. and 70 F., and pressures went cuckoo at the higher temperature.

I tried H4350 and got outstanding results with the 200 grain Sierra SBT and good results with the Nosler 220 grain Partition. With the 200 SBT my SD is only 8 and the velocity is consistent over teh range of temperatures mentioned. There is plenty of room for propellant in the case with only very light compression, if at all.

I can't tell you the powder charge as I don't want to be accused of blowing up someone's rifle. Suffice to say that it is perfectly safe in my rifle and is in fact 1.5 grains below max, FOR MY PARTICULAR RIFLE.

The Hodgdon data on their website unfortunately was tested with the WLRM primer, which is the Winchester magnum large rifle. Even Winchester does not recommend the use of that primer with their W760 ballpowder loads, listing instead the WLR standard large rifle primer. I agree with WInchester's assessment. The WLR primer is hotter than some other "magnum" primers to begin with. Add the facts of a relatively short powder column and a powder charge below 70 grains, and a magnum primer is not necessary.

In other published tests of a 7mm Rem Mag, substituting a WLRM for WLR primer raised pressure 3,200 psi in a 66 grain load. I used the WLR primer, not the magnum version. The pressures obtained with the WLR are lower with the same powder charge than are listed in the Hodgdon data using the WLRM.

The bottom line is that by substituting a WLR primer in the .300 WSM, a somewhat heavier powder charge than listed can still be within safe limits in a given rifle.

[This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 07-26-2001).]

Normally you could use 3 or 4 grains more of it than standard H4831, so maybe short core would be close....It was a cannon powder and Jack O'Connor made it famous..You cannot get enough of it in a case to hurt a gun in the 270, 30-06 or 300 H&H, most old timer scouped and tapped and scoup....velocity was high and pressures were almost non existant..

O'Conner used 63 grs. and put in print 62 grs to be safe with his 270 using 130's and 150's.....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

That is exactly how we use to load 270s, with a dipper.

Back in the 60s and early 70s when 4831 was the main powder out here, a lot of 270 Improveds were made and that was to be able to use the old 4831 with 100 Hornadies as the 270 was not a big enough case for the old 4831, especially with 100 grainers.

Th e62 grains was OK. In a Sako 270 that I owned in 1968 (my first "real rifle") I used 60 grains and Winchester Super X brass.

Only neeck sized with a locally made straight line tool. Fired 2000 shots from 120 cases. Some cases were lost in the bush, so probably effectively used 100 cases. Primer pockets were fine after 20 shots. Although in my opinion brass was much harder years ago than what is sold now.

Mike

Sakos use to be the standard "good" rifle in Australia. That has changed somewht with the newer Sako. Also Winchester Australia was the importer in more recent times, which did not hepl.

We use to be able to buy every part of a Sako. A common purhcase was the chambered and fitted barrels.

The standard "good" rifle in Australia was a Sako 270 with a 6X Pecar scope and a Sako 222 with an 8 X 56 Kahles for pro shooting of a night time.

If shooting pigs and kangaroos is a sin, especially kangaroos, then I will be in hell for a long time I could not count the number of roos I have shot with both the 270 and 375.

Mike

In relation to this threads topic, one of the things you learn if you shoot a lot, is that trajectory does not seem to count for much. As we say down here "you get onto them"

I have probably shot a similar number of roos with the 270, 308, 300 Win and 375.

The strange part is that I think my "hits to shots fired ratio" is probably best with the 308 and 375.

I suspect that part of the reason is the slower calibers have more feel and you get used to holding for range to some extent at the 250 yard distance. Once they are out past 400 you need to hold over with all of them.

Mike

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com