I will admit to not being an expert on African Lion hunting, I think that that places me in a minority of two or three here.

Bring me up to speed, will you, especially the PH who criticized the hunter who shot a young, but mature male Lion?

1. a pride of Lions has one male in charge.
2. that pride has from four to six or seven females.
3. the majority of those females are: pregnant, or nursing cubs.
4. cubs range from newborn to young adults
5. the pride male runs all the young males off when they mature.
6. those young males cruise the countryside eating, and maturing to the point where they can
challenge a pride male for the pride.
7. if they win that fight, the first thing the new pride male does is kill every cub, so that the females come into heat. Every one of them.

Am I correct thru point 7?

The logical end statement is, that every hunter who shoots a Pride Lion in effect assures the death of every nursing cub in that pride?
With one shot you harvest up to a "Baker's Dozen" of lions.

I would project that; if a hunter shoots a pride male every year, in "X" number of years that pride will die of old age...?

Educate me please,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the hunter who shot a young, but mature male Lion?

Well Rich, that's probably the most oxymoronic thing you've ever written. Let's start with the basics. A young lion, by definition, is not a mature lion, and a mature lion, also by definition, is not a young lion. Got it now?

I'm thinkin' Rich means a lion that could mount and
impregnate a female, but maybe he's not strong enough
to drive off a dominant male so he doesn't get that
chance. Like a high school freshman male vs. a male
college athlete.

I had the same questions and that is what I've learned/found out:

-main target should be a old male without pride/past breeding

-If you shoot a male out of a pride,he has to be old (6y+) and only take him if the pride has no cubs

-these young lions wanderer around and are the populations gene reserve what's make them very important for the population (to take over a pride). They have a high mortality rate that's why we don't hunt them.


So the basic goal (as with most big game) is to take only old old male animals that are past their prime. That does not affect the population but bringt lot's of (monetary) benefits.

I hope that makes sense

Dennis

That may make sense but it is total nonsense that knowing some lion is not a pride lion, there are no cubs, he is seven years old and not six, he got a manicure within the last seven days, drives a Audi instead of a Volkswagen, and never leaves home without his American Express card.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I will admit to not being an expert on African Lion hunting, I think that that places me in a minority of two or three here.

Bring me up to speed, will you, especially the PH who criticized the hunter who shot a young, but mature male Lion?

1. a pride of Lions has one male in charge.
2. that pride has from four to six or seven females.
3. the majority of those females are: pregnant, or nursing cubs.
4. cubs range from newborn to young adults
5. the pride male runs all the young males off when they mature.
6. those young males cruise the countryside eating, and maturing to the point where they can
challenge a pride male for the pride.
7. if they win that fight, the first thing the new pride male does is kill every cub, so that the females come into heat. Every one of them.

Am I correct thru point 7?

The logical end statement is, that every hunter who shoots a Pride Lion in effect assures the death of every nursing cub in that pride?
With one shot you harvest up to a "Baker's Dozen" of lions.

I would project that; if a hunter shoots a pride male every year, in "X" number of years that pride will die of old age...?

Educate me please,

Rich

You're not missing anything. I'm waiting for a logical explanation too.

I know nothing about lion hunting either but we can all appreciate conservation efforts among hunters. Conservation as in using the resource not preserving the resource like the greenies want.

With that in mind I had exactly the same thoughts as ISS regarding only shooting old males. It seems to me that because lion prides are a cohesive unit that taking the patriarch must affect the whole group in a serious way.

When we shoot a herd elk the next day there's another big boy to take his place, but the new one doesn't kill the young.

So understanding that I know nothing about lions and that I'm interested in learning about the conservation methods that hunters must use to ensure the continuation of our sport. Have there been any serious studies done that support the notion of taking only old lions? What did they conclude?

Someone mentioned that young lions without a pride have a high mortality rate, that makes sense to me. By taking a younger lion without a pride aren't we mimicking the way nature does it and not affecting the pride as much? The young one will experience high mortality anyway.

I'm not stirring the pot here, I'm interested in learning more.


The chef

I seem to be in the dark as well.

Browsing through the various recent lion threads, as well as, the links provided, I have somehow missed the explanation.

Why is killing a 3 year old male lion risky to the lion population and how will conserving the young males have an advantage on the over all welfare of the pride?

I asked a member of the Niassa Carnivore Project whether this ageing system was an issue if you knew that the particular Lion was not holding a pride. His reply was that you can not be sure that it does not hold a Pride as in certain areas some Pride males will not stay with the pride but instead visit from time to time.
I got the impression that it was more of a numbers thing where you have to work with averages.
http://www.predatorconservation.com/niassa.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I will admit to not being an expert on African Lion hunting, I think that that places me in a minority of two or three here.

Bring me up to speed, will you, especially the PH who criticized the hunter who shot a young, but mature male Lion?

1. a pride of Lions has one male in charge.
2. that pride has from four to six or seven females.
3. the majority of those females are: pregnant, or nursing cubs.
4. cubs range from newborn to young adults
5. the pride male runs all the young males off when they mature.
6. those young males cruise the countryside eating, and maturing to the point where they can
challenge a pride male for the pride.
7. if they win that fight, the first thing the new pride male does is kill every cub, so that the females come into heat. Every one of them.

Am I correct thru point 7?

The logical end statement is, that every hunter who shoots a Pride Lion in effect assures the death of every nursing cub in that pride?
With one shot you harvest up to a "Baker's Dozen" of lions.

I would project that; if a hunter shoots a pride male every year, in "X" number of years that pride will die of old age...?

Educate me please,

Rich

Rich, this is like politics, the answers will satisfy some and enrage others, but here goes.
Lion population dynamics vary according to several vagaries, including, lion population densities, prey availability and human pressures which also includes hunting.
>> 1. a pride of lion can have a consortium of males which can be made up of siblings or same aged animals which formed a consortium as bachelors. This form of consortium is an interesting dynamic in its own right. The number of such a consortium is normally between two and four animals. A new dynamic has been noted in Botswana in the Chobe area due to the over population of elephant where some prides are specialising in the hunting and killing of fairly large elephant. As the males are required to assist in the killing of such large prey, it has been noted that the number of males per pride has increased. It must be noted that this phenomenon is yet to be fully studied.
>>2 normally, yes
>>3 ditto
>>4 ditto
>>5 at around eighteen months of age, they are sexually mature but not socially mature.
>>6 and as a rule just trying to survive, a great number die from various causes including clashes with territorial males.
>>7 correct!
Your "baker's dozen" is pretty much on the money.
Now consider this, when there is a pride takeover, the beaten male/males are pretty much hammered, so much so, that they do "NOT" survive over long. It has been documented and filmed on several occassions where badly injured males are killed and eaten by hyaena. Not too many trophy hunters want a chewed-up supperating, battered old trophy on the wall.
FALLACIES and FANTASIES, picture this, land cruiser, cruising [what else] along the wide open spaces, excited client, or in some instances, blase client, when tracker whispers out loudly "simba!" PH studies them, [two mature males in this instance] then tells the client "Umm! we are in luck today. They are mature males without a pride." HORSE WALLOP!! Males often leave the pride to patrol their territories, to get away from the women and kids and checking for bachelors etc. etc.
There is not much chance of finding mature prideles males that are not dying from their injuries.
It is really time to rethink this thing out logically. To my mind, there are only two choices. If the population dynamics allow, then young sexually mature, yet socially immature males should be the target. The other answer is canned lion "shooting."

Scriptus

Your post mirrors my questions/concerns.

A dethroned pride male may be the ultimate target, but I think it it is asking a lot to find one when you consider that their lifespan must be pretty short once they are booted from the pride.

My guess is that the >6 yo rule follows the belief that a >6 yo pride male is most likely about to be booted by younger males, so the infanticide that will be triggered by shooting him would have happened soon anyway????

I still have a lot of questions about all this. I really can't see how killing a very young male(cub) out of a pride will have any great impact on the prides health.

I would be interested to see a breakdown of male lion population be age.

JBrown, I do not know where the six year old story originates, but males are socially mature at four years of age. Pride domination is normally between two and three years, but can be up to five years if the male consortium is strong. As a comparison, females can mate at eighteen months and continue beeding up to the age of fifteen years.

The fellow that can really do justice to your questions Rich is Bwanamich...he left for Easter Holiday yesterday and won't be back for a while.

The real answers to your questions are written in volumes NOT SENTENCES in a thread. Read the stuff on or preliminary page, www.liondiscussion.wikispaces.com , and do a real literature search if you are "truly interested".

A couple of things:

1) post-breeding males are the ONLY lion that can be taken with out ANY effect on population dynamics.

2) young males outside of the prides must form coalitions to survive...kind of like mini prides...if there are 2 in the coalition and you shoot one...the other dies too most of the time. 3??? if the one you shoot is the dominant hunter...maybe all die again...certainly made it hard for them.

3) there is NOT a surplus of young males.

I have absolutely ZERO experience lion hunting. Howver one thing comes to mind and I'm just throwing it out as something to consider and maybe someone can comment on it.

Wouldn't one jsutification for shooting the pride male be that it helps with genetic diversity. If I understand correctly the sons of the pride male will ultimately be booted out but the daughters will remain with the pride. Without somewhat frequent changes of the pride male doesn't the risk of too much inbreeding exist where that is eliminated by taking that male out every couple years or so. Cubs of that year may be lost to the new male but I would expect the male to note be displaced anually allowing the pride to continue to expand even if at a slower pace.

Thoughts? Excuse the spelling please.

quote:

Wouldn't one jsutification for shooting the pride male be that it helps with genetic diversity.

It happens soon enough with out any help. Pride males only hold prides for 2-3 years. The birth-to-birth interval for a lioness is 2 years!

Fellas I believe the male kills the male lion cubs and not the female cubs.

Mike

A few years ago I hunted in Pilansberg National Park in SA. We had a pride of lions that visited the camp waterhole on a regular basis. In the pride were two huge male lions. A ranger told us they were brothers and thus tolerated each other. Both were very distictly scarred and easy to recognize and were thought to be 5 or 6 years old by the natuaralist. On numerous occasions we encountered these two guys alone quite a distance away. The naturalist told us they hunted alone together. How in the world would you be expected to know these were "pride" males if you encountered them? It seems to me there are a lot of issues we really don't understand at work here. I would think the continual subdividing of concessions with increased quotas present more of a problem than the age of the lion you shoot but thats just my opinion.

It maybe my mind works differnt but:

It seems to boil down to hunting lions at present population levels is bad for lions. It doesnt seem that there is any part of the population that is truly excess.

BUT: Not hunting lions leads to eradication as pests.

As a Rancher I know what a pack of coyotes can do. The mind boggles at what a pride of lions on a cattleranch could do.

So all of you who are looking for a loophole are having probs, there is no big rock candy mountain and no panaceas. Lion hunting is going to be expensive and controlled but to have any at all we will have to make compremises.

Lane

hope I am not to far off, please instruct if I am not savving something here.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
It maybe my mind works differnt but:

It seems to boil down to hunting lions at present population levels is bad for lions. It doesnt seem that there is any part of the population that is truly excess.

BUT: Not hunting lions leads to eradication as pests.

As a Rancher I know what a pack of coyotes can do. The mind boggles at what a pride of lions on a cattleranch could do.

So all of you who are looking for a loophole are having probs, there is no big rock candy mountain and no panaceas. Lion hunting is going to be expensive and controlled but to have any at all we will have to make compremises.

Lane

hope I am not to far off, please instruct if I am not savving something here.

SSR

With the exception that post-breeding males are excess.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Fellas I believe the male kills the male lion cubs and not the female cubs.

Mike

Mike,

Not trying to be argumentative at all sir...but...they (new pride males) do not distinguish between male and female when killing cubs. Cubs are killed to bring females back into heat so they themselves can breed. As said before the birth-to-birth interval is two years for lioness. that means they don't breed again until their cubs are 1 2/3 years old...unless ALL of the cubs die...then they come back into estrus (heat) with-in days to weeks.

How do young males assemble coalitions or mini prides?
Do you have evidence that a young male who has lost his partner in crime to a bullet, will not yet again form an alliance with another young male or mini pride? Isn't it true that with such a struggle to stay alive the lion may die in his natural environment regardless of man doing him in?

I'm not saying the concept is wrong but I am skeptical and have many questions. Assuming its desirable or even perfect its not likely to become a reality for the sheer complexity of assuring only post breeding males are killed, perhaps even more so because of the cataclysmic effect on future safari success rates.

Iam not a defeatist but Lion hunting is doomed and all the hunters money in the world will not change that. In this fight we are vastly outnumbered and a enormous number of people could care less about how much you paid for your Lion hunt. Just another example of how hunting for the chosen few ends up hunting for no one....even most hunters can't support Lion hunting...they could care less. Maybe we could scare them with the "Domino Affect" like the NRA does.

If all this is true then maybe we should all simply hunt lions in South Africa where they can be raised in captivity for the sole purpose of being hunted. That way no innocent lion cubs will be killed when the rich American shoots the pride male.

Sounds to me like the South Africans have had it right all along! I vote we ban lion wild lion hunting in all countries and only allow canned hunts. It will be the best thing for the species…right?

quote:

How do young males assemble coalitions or mini prides?

Almost (if not 100% of the time) always they are brothers.

quote:

Originally posted by RayRay:
How do young males assemble coalitions or mini prides?
Do you have evidence that a young male who has lost his partner in crime to a bullet, will not yet again form an alliance with another young male or mini pride? Isn't it true that with such a struggle to stay alive the lion may die in his natural environment regardless of man doing him in?

I'm not saying the concept is wrong but I am skeptical and have many questions. Assuming its desirable or even perfect its not likely to become a reality for the sheer complexity of assuring only post breeding males are killed, perhaps even more so because of the cataclysmic effect on future safari success rates.

RayRay,

There are many questions here.

Coalitions are formed by nomads or cast outs coming together and who unite in hunting. They are dependent on each other. I have seen coalitions of both young and old males. Two seems to be the norm and the most I have witnessed was four young males. Some of these Lion can attain an age of 4-5 before they can infiltrate a pride and I believe at this age they could be hunted without impact on the social structure.

To answer your second question I think that where possible the loner will try and pair up again but it is tough out there.

An example is that 4 years ago in the Kafue I had a single young Lion on a hippo bait. Beautiful Lion but still a bit spotty. He had been in a serious fight and had some terrific wounds on his flank and face. Also missing his right ear. He was hungry and fairly thin and violently possessed the bait. Wanting the meat back but not wanting to fire a shot my apprentice tried to drive him off with the car. Cut a long story short the Lion repeatedly charged the car and the blind. Eventually I had to fire a shot and the Lion took absolutely no notice of it. Sod it we left the bait and abandoned the set up. Client thought it was the best experience ever.

This brute was shot two years later by Richard Bell Cross and I noted the missing ear and scars. It was aged 5 plus and still alone? Good one to take and just maybe that hippo leg got him through a tough time?

If the Lion is alone and obviously mature, gray and heavy set and bearing facial scars I would take him nomad or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
Not too many trophy hunters want a chewed-up supperating, battered old trophy on the wall.

Sign me up!!

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
If all this is true then maybe we should all simply hunt lions in South Africa where they can be raised in captivity for the sole purpose of being hunted. That way no innocent lion cubs will be killed when the rich American shoots the pride male.

Sounds to me like the South Africans have had it right all along! I vote we ban lion wild lion hunting in all countries and only allow canned hunts. It will be the best thing for the species…right?

"HUNT lions in south africa"?? the term "hunt" & south africa dont really go together very well. far too many are canned KILLS.
Canned lion killing is on its way out. ban the other countries with wild lion hunting, and you ban all lion hunting. your statement about those "rich Americans killing lions"....you sure you're not with PETA?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
Not too many trophy hunters want a chewed-up supperating, battered old trophy on the wall.

Sign me up!!

The poor bloody skinner will be so happy trying to cape a rotten raggedy stinker. It wouldn't be a hunt so much as a euthanasia!!

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
If all this is true then maybe we should all simply hunt lions in South Africa where they can be raised in captivity for the sole purpose of being hunted. That way no innocent lion cubs will be killed when the rich American shoots the pride male.

Sounds to me like the South Africans have had it right all along! I vote we ban lion wild lion hunting in all countries and only allow canned hunts. It will be the best thing for the species…right?

"HUNT lions in south africa"?? the term "hunt" & south africa dont really go together very well. far too many are canned KILLS.
Canned lion killing is on its way out. ban the other countries with wild lion hunting, and you ban all lion hunting. your statement about those "rich Americans killing lions"....you sure you're not with PETA?

You missed the point of my post. You seem to support the idea of hunting wild lions but you failed to address the concerns in the original post. The comments above argue that shooting the wrong male can have a dramatic impact on future lion populations. If that is the case then shooting farm raised lions must be a viable option.

Before reading this thread I had not read any of these ideas about the lion
population before IIR correctly. It is complex and really needs scientific activism.
Of course the scientists would have to be open to using all means to keep the
lions at a sound number. By that I mean sport hunting and so on.

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
If all this is true then maybe we should all simply hunt lions in South Africa where they can be raised in captivity for the sole purpose of being hunted. That way no innocent lion cubs will be killed when the rich American shoots the pride male.



Sounds to me like the South Africans have had it right all along! I vote we ban lion wild lion hunting in all countries and only allow canned hunts. It will be the best thing for the species…right?

"HUNT lions in south africa"?? the term "hunt" & south africa dont really go together very well. far too many are canned KILLS.
Canned lion killing is on its way out. ban the other countries with wild lion hunting, and you ban all lion hunting. your statement about those "rich Americans killing lions"....you sure you're not with PETA?

Tanz-ph thats arrogant as hell-there are other types of hunting besides yours

Roscoe--to simplistic

I feel that "captive breeding " will have to be part of the solution if hunting is to continue. I grew up 50 miles from Yellowstone park. We are still fighting bison w/ brucellosis and now they have turned wolves out.

Everything is fenced now-dont kid yourselves. there are only so many acres of dry land and way to many people. I am not a Malthusian so people come first.
what we are looking for is an acceptable middle ground where animals and peolpe co-exist. Calling all hunts in RSA canned killing is simply ignorant. Shooting in a corral is simply killing.

Wake up and stop being self-rightous, I havent been to Africa but we have a hell of a lot of game here in North America. and it wouldnt be here except for hunters, and yes the whole country is fenced.

SSR

quote:

Of course the scientists would have to be open to using all means to keep the
lions at a sound number. By that I mean sport hunting and so on.

The whole purpose of the LCTF is to bring the scientific community and the hunting community together for the common good of the lion. Thus far I have seen no major conflicts between the two when hunting is done ethically following proper conservation guidelines. In fact...they have been quite supportive.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm: The whole purpose of the LCTF is to bring the scientific community and the hunting community together...

I applaud your efforts Lane! There are going to be fanatics frankly in both camps who will never agree on anything, but we also share a lot of common ground whether we know it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame: If the Lion is alone and obviously mature, gray and heavy set and bearing facial scars I would take him nomad or not.

Andrew, what about if he was running with one female?

I shot a lion years ago am wondering how old he actually was. He was exactly as you describe, missing the end of his tale to boot, with a skull measuring ~25 inches. My guess is 5-years old, but I’ll never know for sure.

There was a magnificent dark-manned male coming across the Luangwa from the park. I saw him at night only and he would disappear come shooting light. I have no doubt that we would have shot him given the opportunity, as after all he was alone. But looking back he was clearly a dominant male. We listened as he chased another male for several kilometers, then came back to work over some hyena. Maybe he was 5, or 6, or 7...but so what as he was clearly in his prime. I was the last lion hunter of the season, and I am glad I did not shoot him. Ditto with the obviously young lion encountered on my two other "unsuccessful" lion hunts.

I struggle as others seem to also with the reality of actually finding a solo male lion past breeding age not holding a pride. It seems to me that the window of opportunity for a lion such as this is very small. Perhaps the folks doing lion research are able to track and age particular lion, but lion moving in/out of hunting concessions from parks, I don't know how one could ever be sure.

If he is with one female then he is fair game in my book.

I agree with you and the chances of finding and shooting the old boy who has been ousted from the pride is fairly slim. If we can refrain from taking the pride male and this can usually be determined by observation then all well and good. Note some pride males are taken when they go walk about.

Personally if the nomad is of age, and there are plenty of these, then I feel it is fair to take him. Hence the thinking that the 6 year margin should be reduced to 4-5 years to accommodate this.

My partners have endorsed a pricing system to protect Lion and the client. We downgrade the safari if I cannot show you an old male. The tag is then offered at a discount to another. It is out little bit for conservation but few can afford to entertain this policy. For me it removes a lot of pressure and if the hunter does not take a Lion like the ones we advertise in the brochure then he goes home happy having had a memorable and affordable hunt.

I have seen some chaps in Zim offering a fair daily rate with a much inflated trophy fee for Lion and basically you pay on success. Good on them and this is another very fair option.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
Not too many trophy hunters want a chewed-up supperating, battered old trophy on the wall.

Sign me up!!

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brett

The Niassa Reserve Ecologist didn't spend too much time to determine this guy was well over the minimum age limit...


Battered up enough boys?

Awesome old Lion and a great one to take.

Any more details? Story?

Photo shop does wonders..

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2401009921

That's a nice lion. Awesome!