I remember reading a post by Harry Selby where he stated he believed the .375 H&H magnum was the best caliber ever invented. Why did he carry a .416 Rigby for years and a .470 NE DR for years prior to that? Was he speaking of the best "client" caliber for Africa? Certainly he couldn't have meant it was the best caliber for professional hunters.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
I remember reading a post by Harry Selby where he stated he believed the .375 H&H magnum was the best caliber ever invented. Why did he carry a .416 Rigby for years and a .470 NE DR for years prior to that? Was he speaking of the best "client" caliber for Africa? Certainly he couldn't have meant it was the best caliber for professional hunters.

Thanks,

jfm

Yes, he was talking about client weapons.

Most PH's with whom I have discussed this subject have said that, for heavy game, such as elephant, Cape buffalo and hippopotamus, a hunting client should use the biggest rifle he can shoot well.

For most, but certainly not all, that's a .375.

IIRC, he only bought the 416 because some idiot broke the stock on his 470 DR and there were none to be had in town on such short notice.

It is not a coincidence that I own and hunt with both calibers.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

IIRC, he only bought the 416 because some idiot broke the stock on his 470 DR and there were none to be had in town on such short notice.

Actually, as I understand it, He was involved in skinning out a buffalo (maybe some other animal) and, having no tree handy to rest his rifle against, laid it on the ground. Then, someone, not seeing the rifle in the grass, drove right up the barrels when pulling up in the truck. He said it may have shot very well at 1000 yards.

He became a great proponent of the 416 Rigby and used it almost exclusively from then on for the big stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
IIRC, he only bought the 416 because some idiot broke the stock on his 470 DR and there were none to be had in town on such short notice.

It is not a coincidence that I own and hunt with both calibers.

Rich
DRSS

Rich, I believe that "idiot" was Syd Downey.

American Rifleman had an article a few years ago on Harry Selby. I recall Joe Coogan, who worked with him then, was the author. Selby's .416 was sent to Rigby after the barrel was shot out and replaced with a PUSH FEED Model 70 .458 which was used to the end of his career. Coogan use an similar rifle. The article discussed how Selby pulled bullets and dumped powder from his cartridges at the end of each season to avoid powder clumping in the undersized cases.

quote:

which was used to the end of his career

Harry told me himself the 458 was used until the 416 was returned at which time he went back to the 416.

Certainly Mr Selby is legendary as is the 416 Rigby associated with him. It is also great to read his posts here !

But I believe the rifle(s) a PH selects and uses are viewed a bit differently by them than many of use view our rifles and calibers. They pick a rifle to use primarily as either a meat provider or as a stopper to keep them, and the client, and the trackers from getting stomped, scrtached or bit. The ultimate in accuracy may not be required, the best wood and engraving is not generally required. These are working rifles - tools if you will. Sure they get attached to them too. But they are chosen for the job and for the realiablity, for the ammo that might be at hand, and sometimes for what is available and not to expensive. It just goes with the the job not unlike a truck!

The 416 Rigby and Mr. Selby go together and make a truly great Africa combination of the Classics of all time. You dont hear so much about his other rifles like the 275 etc. But had he chosen something else as he did at other times I dont think it makes any of them more or less right for us. And Mr. Selby would still be legendary. But again, in this case, it all works the best together.

Mine is a 416 Rem Mag Model 70. Sure I would like an original built Rigby like Mr Selbys, and sometimes I toy with geting a double and maybe I will. It wont be like Mr Selbys for a lot of reasons - unless it gets run over !

"American Rifleman",January 2010, by John Barsness. Page 53,paragraph three. "It took three years to get the .416 back,and by that time Selby had grown fond of the .458,so he sold the .416."

I asked my PH why he was so praising of the 375 -when he carried a 470 NE double. He said :"Gerry, the 375 is a killing bullet. The 470 is a stopping bullet". (He had told me about using the 375 standing off from a herd of elephant in culling hunts)

quote:

Originally posted by armorer:
"American Rifleman",January 2010, by John Barsness. Page 53,paragraph three. "It took three years to get the .416 back,and by that time Selby had grown fond of the .458,so he sold the .416."

There has been some question about this for some time now(did he continue to use the 458, or did he go back to the 416).

The really interesting question is: when Rigby got Selby's 416 in for rebarreling why in the world did they take two years to get around to finishing it?

Any well run company would have handed it to their best craftsman and said, "this rifle belongs to a VIP who, in using this rifle, has promoted our product immeasurably. Drop whatever you are doing and fit it with the best barrel we have. When you are finished, refurbish anything that needs attention, then get it to the shipping department ASAP. I will draft a letter thanking Mr. Selby and explaining that the new barrel, refurbishment and 200 rounds of ammo are on the house. I want this rifle back in his hands by this time nest week."

Instead they put it to the back of the line, forcing Selby to use a lowly M70 in 458 for(at least) two seasons.

Great marketing and customer service.

Mr. Selby has not posted since September 2009 on the thread about my .375 H&H.

Sure would be great if he was still lurking here and could give his impression on the .416 topic.

Well, you guys are in luck....

I got home and checked my email and found waiting a note from Harry with a detailed description of what happened to his Rigby 470 and his acquisition of the 416. He has been able to browse the site, but not respond due to computer/connection problems and asked me to post his reply for him.

On a side note, he also re-iterated the fact that he did use the 416 again AFTER it was returned from London with the new barrel. That should settle that part of the debate.

And now Ladies and Gentlemen... Mr. Harry Selby....



"I was on Safari in the Ikoma area of North Western Tanganyika in 1950/51. We were hunting with three clients from the United States… Chuck Steele Snr. and his son Chuck Jnr. the third clients name was Bob Wentzel. The Professional hunters were Donald Ker Chris Aschan and myself.

We were camped beside the lower reaches of the Grummetti river which forms the
Western boundary of the Serengetti National Park. We were after a general bag of trophies, including Lion, Leopard, Buffalo, and Rhino, all found in the Ikoma area, although rhino were not numerous.

The Safari was going very well, and after a few weeks we were literally coasting with plenty of time on our hands. We hunted in those days, mostly in the early mornings and evenings, game being very plentiful, it was unnecessary to stay out all day.

One evening found Chuck Jnr. and myself together with gunbearers Kidogo and Matheke cruising upriver in the hunting car, just outside the riverine bush.
We spotted a Buffalo about half a mile out in a swath of tall grass, only its back was visible, but “bull” was written all over what we could see. We decided to go take a look, as we had four Buffalo on the license, and we both loved hunting them anyway.

We soon discovered there was a shallow marsh between ourselves and the Buffalo, we waded it without a problem, and then crept up on the lone bull, who was totally oblivious to our presence. The stalk was ridiculously easy due to the long grass, and when he lifted his head he looked pretty good with a spread of well over forty inches.
Chuck was using a .470 hired from the company. His first shot hit the bull high in the shoulder dropping him in his tracks.. a second shot finished him off.
We sent Kidogo back for the car, he would have to bring it by a circuitous route to avoid the marsh, and that would take a while We had no four wheel drives in those days.

There were no trees for a considerable distance from where the Buffalo fell, and there being nothing on which to lean the rifles, we laid them down in the grass, in order to assist Matheke in the removal of the head and cape.
We figured that we would be finished long before the car arrived, and would be holding the rifles ready to put them back in the gun racks when it did.

I was at that time the proud owner of a first grade double Rigby .470, in mint condition, Jack Block, Managing Director of Ker & Downey Safaris had arranged for me to buy it from a friend of his for one hundred pounds about 270 US$. Seems crazy now doesn’t it.

As we were finishing with the skinning, I heard a vehicle, but paid no attention thinking it was my car approaching, no problem, Kidogo knew the rifles were in the grass. However I realized after a while that the sound was coming from a different direction from that I expected my car to appear. I looked up and saw Donald Ker's Power-Wagon approaching us, and already quite close. Donald and Chuck Snr. had obviously seen vultures and were coming over to investigate what was going on.

Donald drove up and stopped. In a flash I remembered the rifles, but it was too late, one of his front wheels had driven directly on to the barrels of my Rigby.470. Horrified I retrieved the rifle as Donald reversed and immediately realized the worst. The barells were badly bent. Who was to blame? Nobody! We did not expect Donald to come along when we put the rifles in the grass, and he did not know that the rifles were there. It was a tragic accident.

However I was devastated, and to make matters worse, I was now without a heavy rifle and I had another three month Safari starting as soon as the Steele Safari was over.
I had with me a very nice .375 Winchester Model 70 which I used for the remainder of the trip, but I could not start a new Safari with a .375 as my heavy rifle. That would be unthinkable, at a time when great store was laid on large bores and heavy bullets.

On arrival back in Nairobi a couple of weeks later, I immediately began making enquiries for a replacement, but time was short and there appeared to be nothing in the line of heavy double rifles available.
The only heavy rifle I could find was a Rigby .416 at a dealer by the name of May & Co. It had been ordered by Don Bousfield, a game ranger, and for some reason, Don and the .416 had not bonded. It was “as new” and for sale for one hundred pounds . I had no option. I bought it. Little knowing then that decision was one of the most important I would make throughout my hunting career.

So began a lifelong love affair between myself, the .416 caliber, and the Rigby rifle.
.
I very soon realized that this rifle and cartridge combination was for me far superior to any double. The inherent accuracy of a bolt action was apparent from the very first shot, the phenomenal penetration was to make itself evident as time went by.
I also appreciated the four round magazine, and on several occasions was glad that those four rounds were ready and waiting.


Suffice to say that after about two Safaris I would not have gone back to a double under any circumstances. In the Rigby .416 I had found the perfect Professional Hunters rifle,
A beautifully balanced, fast handling weapon propelling a four hundred grain bullet fast enough to enable it to reach out up to three hundred yards if need be, when trying to bring down a wounded animal, and yet perform with devastating effect on large dangerous game at close range. I was impressed!!!.

I have to say that this rifle never gave the slightest trouble, it did however, give the most satisfactory service anyone could ask for, it never let me down, ever!!. I think my Wakamba gun bearers were even more devoted to it than I was. Maybe they thought it had some kind of “dawa.”{medicine}. They called it “Skitini” the closest they could get to four sixteen, and I do believe they were convinced it did most of the shooting by itself. I merely pointed it in the right direction. They regarded it as the one thing that stood between themselves and a possible messy follow up.

Over the years as a Professional Hunter I carried the .416 from the Sudan in the North to Botswana in the South. There have been some rather tricky situations, and it was largely due to the qualities of the Rigby rifle and the performance of the 416 cartridge that everyone involved came through unscathed."

"American Rifleman" June 2002, page 76, last pgh. Joe Coogan, author.
"It's interesting that Selby, known for using a .416 Rigby for more than 40 years, switched to a post-'64 Winchester Model 70 in .458 Win. Mag. when he sent his .416 to Rigby's to be re-barreled. By the time his famous rifle was returned he'd adapted to the .458, which he still carries to this day."
Coogan was a professional hunter with Ker, Downey & Selby. Page 77, Coogan continues, "During my years in Botswana I also carried a post-'64 Winchester Model 70, chambered for the .458 Win. Mag....

I am not an expert by any means on Mr. Selby or his rifle, nor the John Rigby Company. But I dont necessarily think Rigby drug their feet too much on Mr. Selbys rifle.

You might remember that after World War 2 the fine Mauser actions, barrels, etc were scarce. Delivery from Africa for his rifle was likely slow. And the Ribgy company likely did not have a whole lot of the top skilled craftsmen they had had earlier. Some of them, and the facilities and supply, were likely being rebuilt . It is also possible that a few other prominent names like Bell, or Blunt, or Corbett or someone was also waiting for a rifle or a repair. Even some kings, queens, princes, or those upstart "Am-ur-e-cans" from The Colonies were waiting possibly. Maybe even O'Connor but I am not sure of who built his rifle whether that be Ribgy or others.

I dont know exactly what Rigbys production capacity was, but suffice it to say it was never a lot. I think when I looked at some of the guns in the London Purdey store they told me that only a couple of hundred 416's were ever built by the original Rigby. (I am going off memory from a long time ago though.) That would be over a period covering much of the 20th century. At least from 1910 or so (or whenever the Rigby introduction was ) up until 1985 or so when many of the Briish guns and Rigby essentially stopped. So for 75 years assume only 200-300 416's maximum were built. That is 2 to 4 416's a year. I am not sure Rigby would, or could, pull off one of their top craftsmen working on the Kings or Sultans rifle to get on repairing Harrys rifle. The craftsman in question might also say "No", as they had input in their work too. I am also not so sure that Harry was so well known from the Ruark book at that time either.

What is the point? I think a couple of years was the norm then. Heck it is more than that now. I know it is around 6 months from "start" for the top US guys like Mark Penrod. And 12 months and more for a new rifle. Of course I am not Mr. Selby either! It is possible that later they might have jumped on it more - maybe.

I also believe that later Mr. Selby had to put aside the 416 Rigby again for some period, as ammo for the 416 became scarce. He later started handloading and forming cases for it ( I think I read that anyway ). Surely Rigby,or someone, anyone, could have scraped together some ammo for Selby - even more so by then. His story had grown and he certainly had gained much of his fame and recognition by this time. This had to be 15 years or more after the Ruark stories and other articles about Mr Selby. So to think he was doing without ammo - or anything for that matter- is telling of the situation that existed at these times.

But good stuff anyway! And if any of those old Selby Model 70's are around I am definitely a potential buyer .

Great stuff Baxter - thanks for that!!

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
I am not an expert by any means on Mr. Selby or his rifle, nor the John Rigby Company. But I dont necessarily think Rigby drug their feet too much on Mr. Selbys rifle.

You might remember that after World War 2 the fine Mauser actions, barrels, etc were scarce. Delivery from Africa for his rifle was likely slow. And the Ribgy company likely did not have a whole lot of the top skilled craftsmen they had had earlier. Some of them, and the facilities and supply, were likely being rebuilt . It is also possible that a few other prominent names like Bell, or Blunt, or Corbett or someone was also waiting for a rifle or a repair. Even some kings, queens, princes, or those upstart "Am-ur-e-cans" from The Colonies were waiting possibly. Maybe even O'Connor but I am not sure of who built his rifle whether that be Ribgy or others.

TexKD

You are way off on your time frame. Harry Selby did not send his 416 in for rebarrel on the heels of WW2. It was much later than that. It was toward the end of hs career. Bell, O'connor and Corbett were long since retired and had gone on the game field in the sky by then.

Two years tells me that they did not rush service to get Selby's 416 back into service. Keep in mind this was the most famous rifle ever to wear their name.

HOTH came out long before the rifle was sent in for work. No matter how you cut it, a rebarrel is a simple job, and when the rifle in question is the most iconic piece you have ever produced you better get someone to put in some overtime getting it done.

Lame customer service and bad PR.

quote:

I also appreciated the four round magazine, and on several occasions was glad that those four rounds were ready and waiting.

I have forgotten how many times and how many guys on AR have told me that I don't need big magazine capacity.

Where is Mr. Selby's .416 now?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Where is Mr. Selby's .416 now?

Someone here in the states owns it, I believe.

One gripe I had with Boddington's Safari Rifles DVD was that they didn't do a segment on Selby's Rigby...to my mind THE historic African rifle.

Thanks for that. And I was not dinging you Jason. I thought the repair was earlier.

I do think I read that Selby did later have to put aside the Rigby for ammo shortage. There was some re-forming of Weatherby cases or something similar.

Any idea if the 300 Rigby 416's is correct? You might be in good company to have one of those. Not THE Selby rifle, but close.

But I will still keep an eye out for those Winchesters !

Thanks.

Many thanks to Harry Selby and BaxterB for a very interesting story - and insight into African hunting history.

I didn't realize that a standard Mauser 98 action, even with a bit of drop in the magazine and a straddle floorplate, would hold four rounds of .416 Rigby.

I wonder if Mr. Selby meant four rounds total, including one in the chamber and three in the magazine?

What I found interesting about him is he is LEFT HANDED and shoots that way,would liked to have seen him operate that bolt gun

Thank you Harry Selby (and BaxterB) for those historical details, from the iconic PH himself.




The Coogan article of 2002 was mostly a thumbnail history of African rifles and cartridges,
and Joe talking about his own .416 Rigby build, trying to recreate some of Harry's rifle's class.
He had Lon Paul do one on a BRNO ZKK 602 with a pop-up peep, and a 24" Douglas barrel.
That one had to weigh about 3/4 pound more than Harry's Rigby on the miltary M98 overhaul.
Joe PH'ed with Harry, but his article is very light on anything specific about Harry's rifle.
His recollections of Harry's early history are secondhand.

Barsness's recollections of 2010 publication approach the level of gossip over the backyard fence.

Good ol' obsessive-compulsive Layne Simpson did his usual good detail job in Rifle #192 in the year 2000 AD:

Frank Lyon of Louisiana, owner of the plantation "Wingmead," bought Harry's .416 Rigby in 1994.
He then hunted elephant with it in 1996, along with Harry in Botswana.

The rifle has Rigby serial # 5XX3.
LOP was 14-1/8".
Barrel length is 23.5".
Overall length is 45".
Sight radius is 20-1/4".
Fixed leaf of the express sight was right on at 50 yards as test-fired by Layne. Probably would be right on at 100 yards too.
There are two folding leaves (200 and 300 yards).
A gripcap trap holds a spare ivory night sight bead.
The front sight pictured is a low gold bead/blade dovetailed and screwed to a small base that is integral with the barrel.
The rear sight base looks to be on a sleeve, said to be brazed to the barrel, by Layne.
Barrel-banded front sling base, 1-1/2" forward of forend tip.
Forend is only 8-1/2" long, past the face of the front receiver ring.
Muzzle diameter was reborted by Layne as 11/16".
Weight of rifle was said to be 9-1/4 pounds, by Layne.
He said most people handling it guess "6 to 8 pounds" and say it is as lively as a quail gun.

Trigger pull weight was said to be a heavy 7 pounds, but smooth and no creep.

The floorplate is engraved with scroll and "Harry Selby" encircling "1949" which is supposedly the year that Harry acquired the rifle, according to Layne, or maybe just the year that the rifle was made, or when sold to original owner? Nobody is perfect, eh?
Didn't Harry say he acquired it in 1950-1951?
The floorplate engraving must have been done on the refinish-and-rebarrel trip to Rigby of London.

The lively rifle's box will allow 4 cartridges to go into the magazine, tight, bolt will not close on four down.
Similar to a CZ 550 Magnum, regarding box size, eh?.
The bolt will close on three cartridges only, with the 4th cartridge feeding off the top of the box, as the bolt is closed.

Layne says Rigby listed the rifle in their catalog as a Model No. 5, available only in .416 Rigby.
Model No. 2 was in .275 Rigby.
Model No. 4 was in .350 Rigby.

Thanks BaxterB for posting Harry's reply and thanks to Mr Selby for such an enlightening expose.

Now all you double and other monster bore fanatics eat that.

Now to be reasonable I think Mr Selby has highlighted for us the importance of accuracy and placing the shot whether you are a sport hunter or a PH. He found the good magazine capacity and the accuracy of the bolt definite advantages in this respect.
God I feel good now, being left-handed and with a Mauser 404J I don't have to slink away in the dark when the campfire discussion turns to what is good for African game.

Harry met "Sally" the .416 Rigby rifle about 1950?

Elephant hunting closed in Botswana in 1994, and Harry sold Sally.

Elephant hunting re-opened in 1996, and the new owner went elephant hunting with Harry.

Find this article and read it!

Look! The new owner is a lefty too, shoots lefty with a righty rifle!
No cheekpieces on the stock, with perfect drop for iron sights.
Wide trigger shoe. Mauser flag safety.

The Harry Selby .416 Rigby must have a stock of very dense wood or it might have some balancing weights hidden in the stock.
It is slim of barrel and stock, with short forend, 23.5" barrel, and made on a standard M98 action,
which is about a half pound lighter than a Magnum action, yet weighs all of 9.25 pounds.

My CZ 550 Magnum with 25" barrel that is .670" at muzzle weighs the same at 9.25 pounds, with LuxHogback stock.

My SIG Mauser 98 Magnum in 450 Dakota has a 24.5" barrel that is .670" at the muzzle and weighs 9.50 pounds.

The current production (Third generation) Ruger RSM .416 Rigby has a 23" barrel that is .750" at the muzzle and weighs only 9.5 pounds.
My "Ol'Purple" .416 Rigby RSM poking out from the buffalo above is a Gen-2 with 24" barrel length and a fat .820" muzzle diameter: 10.75 pounds dry weight.

A well balanced 9.25 pound (dry-weight) .416 Rigby is perfect.
Sally must be a joy to dance with.
That's all I have to say about that.

Hey RIP,

CAn you post the rest of that article?...Pretty please with sugar on top....

Looks from the side view of the action that it has not only the notch for the bullet tip cut out on the top and side of the front ring but also the trimmed edge such as is often found on original 318 westleys. I have heard some folks question the strength of the receiver rings on the WR 318's - well, this should put their minds at rest!

Huvius,
Yep, looks like a standard M98 properly done up as a .416 Rigby will last forever, if loads are kept to CIP spec pressure.

BaxterB,
You are a Sweet Pea for getting Harry's words posted here. Much appreciated.
Apparently Harry Selby also thinks highly of your character, to trust you as the messenger.

Just for you I am going to post the rest of the article, as long as nobody complains about this advertizing for Rifle magazine.
Layne Simpson is no Homer Simpson.
He is the next best thing to Ross Seyfried, and might be the better at including techniciana we crave.
Me and Rifle magazine are like peas and carrots.

Notice that Bob Kuhn painted Selby as a Righty?











Posted 08-14-2010 9:13 AM Hide Post
I too would consider it an extended pinky finger breaker to submit for Birmingham proof.

They would do it by CIP specs, latest of which I have are May 15, 2002.

Pmax = maximum average pressure allowed for the working loads = PTmax ("T" is for transducer)

PK = maximum statistical individual pressure of the working load (defined as 1.15 x Pmax)

PE = mean proof pressure, which is found to be either one of three things:

1. PE = 1.25 x Pmax in an English section of print = "mean proof pressure"

2. PE = 1.30 x Pmax in a French section of print = "pression moyenne d'epreuve"

3. PE = some stated pressure that is lower than the above.

The case of the .416 Rigby is number 3:

Pmax = 3250 bar = 47,125 psi
PK = 3738 bar = 54,201 psi
PE = 4060 bar = 58,870 psi

The proof load is only 24.9% higher than the Pmax. Not 25%, not 30%. Wink

Note the 450 Rigby pressures:
Pmax = 4000 bar = 58,000 psi
PK = 4600 bar = 66,700 psi
PE = 5000 bar = 72,500 psi

That used a 1.25 X factor for proof.

Thanks a stack RIP!! I owe you a tall frosty one whenever our paths cross!

Many thanks!

_Baxter

You're not going to be in the Myrtle Beach area next week are ya??? ;-)

I wish!
We'll get together with Michael McCourry sometime. I'll get the second round.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

TexKD

You are way off on your time frame. Harry Selby did not send his 416 in for rebarrel on the heels of WW2. It was much later than that. It was toward the end of hs career. Bell, O'connor and Corbett were long since retired and had gone on the game field in the sky by then.

Two years tells me that they did not rush service to get Selby's 416 back into service. Keep in mind this was the most famous rifle ever to wear their name.

HOTH came out long before the rifle was sent in for work. No matter how you cut it, a rebarrel is a simple job, and when the rifle in question is the most iconic piece you have ever produced you better get someone to put in some overtime getting it done.

Lame customer service and bad PR.

It would be adviseable for you to know that as far as Rigby would have been concerned, Mr Shelby was just another client. Mr Selbys status in the American hunting community was only publicised from that time on.

Compared to other clients of Rigby, Selby was self employed. They would have had no reason to expedite service to Mr Selby above their regular customers and I'm sure he was treated in turn, as would have any Rigby client.

Many thanks to RIP for the information and the article.

I particularly enjoyed Layne Simpson's last sentence concerning this excellent rifle:

"May it never be entirely retired from service in the bush."

Welcome, MR.

And thanks to Bulldog for reminding us of this Joe Coogan photo of Selby's Sally:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

TexKD

You are way off on your time frame. Harry Selby did not send his 416 in for rebarrel on the heels of WW2. It was much later than that. It was toward the end of hs career. Bell, O'connor and Corbett were long since retired and had gone on the game field in the sky by then.

Two years tells me that they did not rush service to get Selby's 416 back into service. Keep in mind this was the most famous rifle ever to wear their name.

HOTH came out long before the rifle was sent in for work. No matter how you cut it, a rebarrel is a simple job, and when the rifle in question is the most iconic piece you have ever produced you better get someone to put in some overtime getting it done.

Lame customer service and bad PR.

It would be adviseable for you to know that as far as Rigby would have been concerned, Mr Shelby was just another client. Mr Selbys status in the American hunting community was only publicised from that time on.

Compared to other clients of Rigby, Selby was self employed. They would have had no reason to expedite service to Mr Selby above their regular customers and I'm sure he was treated in turn, as would have any Rigby client.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
Mr Selbys status in the American hunting community was only publicised from that time on.

I think there is some misunderstanding here. Selby sent his 416 in for rebarreling in the 1980's. He was the must well known PH in the world at that time. He sent the rifle to Rigby "attention Paul Roberts". Paul Roberts ran Rigby and was an accomplished safari hunter. He knew who Selby was.

To address what I highlighted in red: yes Rigby treated Selby as "just another client". That was asinine on their part. My point is not that they owed Selby special service, although it would be pretty easy to argue they did, but that they shot themselves in the foot by effectively forcing Selby to ditch his Rigby and use a M70 in 458.

I can't imagine a worse business move from a PR standpoint.

What would have been the downside of moving Selby's 416 to the front of the line? Maybe other customers would have had to wait two years and two days instead of two years?

In response to the many questions raised by Harry's first response to this post, I culled out as many questions as I could from the text, added a few that I thought might come up on a second round and Harry was gracious enough to answer them (plus others) in a final post about this, in what I consider great detail.

As you will see, he spent an awful lot of time clearing up things in regards to this rifle and has settled the 'controversy' over Rigby's turn-around time in regards to the work they did on his 416.

We all owe Harry a debt of gratitude for taking the time to respond. Thanks Harry!

Once again, Harry Selby....



"I did err is stating that the accident to the .470 happened in 1950/51....
just a slip up... after all we are talking about sixty years ago.... it
should have read 1949/50 I think. I took Bob and Harriet Maytag and Bob and
Ginny Ruark in 1951....using the Rigby .416. In the latter part of that year
I went to the States and eventually Kodiak Island where I shot a Kodiak
bear.

Rigby was in no way to blame for the delay in getting the .416 Rigby back to
me.... they accomplished the job... rebarreling (barrel from Austria) and a
complete stock refurbish in good time. (by that time there was no blueing
left on the metalparts and the stock finish was all gone) (See Pic of three
Selby Rifles)


When Rigby's tried to ship the rifle back to me a woman in the government
department responsible to imports / exports blankly refused to issue an
export permit as the rifle would pass through South Africa and there was
an embargo on all arms to SA at that time...
Telling her that it was destined for Botswana cut no ice (I am sure she was
just plain 'Anti Hunting') (I even produced a letter from the Botswana
police to the effect that the rifle was registered in Botswana.... no luck)

Eventually Paul Roberts went over her head to the minister and got the
export permit sorted out. It did not take three years as has been
claimed..

I am not left handed... I do everything right handed except that I shoot
from my left shoulder...maybe my left eye is the 'master eye'.
Cycling the bolt was no big deal, I merely lowered the stock slightly,
gripping the pistol grip with my left hand and with my right hand worked the
bolt.... fast enough... in any case I prefer one or two precisely aimed
shot to a fusilade of random rapid fire

I have always thought of the magazine held four cartridges... maybe my
memory played tricks on me!!! but when Rigby did the work on the rifle they
replaced the original magazine follower which was much shorter than the box with a
full length one....It was more robust and heavier as well...I think it came from
a Brno 602 action.... maybe this prevented Layne Simpson closing the bolt
over four cartridges.
Maybe I also realised this when the rifle came back from Rigby'
but have forgotten about it.
I will refer this to a gunsmith friend of mine for his opinion.

The inscription on the mag. plate was done by Rigby at that time of
re-barreling and the date 1949 was either the date the rifle was despatched
or perhaps the date it was entered on my Firearms Certificate in Nairobi.
I seem to recollect that Paul Roberts said he would use the date it left
Rigby's.

The .458 did me well enough but to even suggest that I had become attached
to it and sold the Rigby .416 as a result is laughable... it is
like comparing chalk and cheese.
I sold the Rigby .416 as I was approaching the time I would plan to retire
and the Rigby was offered a very good home by a client and his wife with
whom I had been on safari a number of times and had become close personal
friends.
I preferred to do it that way rather than have the possibility of the rifle
winding up under some auctioneer's hammer one day!!!!
I have done the same with some of my other rifles.... sold them to old
clients who have become close friends over the years.
Movement of firearms is becoming more restrictive in most parts of Africa
and I preferred to see my precious rifles in good homes elsewhere.
It took a whole year to get an 'in-transit permit' for another rifle of mine to
pass through South Africa a while back.(less than 12 hours in SA)

If I remember correctly the rifle was sent to Rigby's sometime in the early
eighty's and I immediately began using the Rigby as soon as it came back.
One of the safaris I did with it was John Wootters '.416 Safari' in
1987.. John Wootters, Jack Carter (of Trophy Bonded bullets) and Paul
Roberts of Rigby's were testing Jack's TB ammo. on Buffalo. We had in camp
two Rigby .416s... Pauls's and mine. one .416 Hoffman (Jack's) and John
Wootters' .416 Taylor. (Petersen's Hunting August 1988 by Wootters.)

I also took the Rigby to Tanzania ( Maswa, Moiowase, Ugalla, Monduli)
for a four week safari with TGTS later (I forget the year ) and due to the
chaotic customs handling of rifles at the Nairobi Airport lost it for over a
month...eventually it turned up in Maun ...intact.... fortunately.

Incidentally as soon as.416 bullets became available I had no further ammo
worries.... I was getting fairly low until that happened though.
By turning the belts off ..460 and .378 Weatherby cases, resizing them
carefully and then fire forming. ....they worked well enough.

When factory loaded Rigby 416 ammo became available I usually chose
Federal although I used mainly hand loads.
Remember a PH does not use a lot of ammo.... hopefully..... so a couple of
boxes lasted a while.

I just like the feel of a broad trigger and by adding the shoe suited me
well..
I did the same to some of my other rifles. I never used a sling. it can get
one entangled in the bush. I carry a rifle over my right shoulder gripping
the barrel in my right hand.

I estimate that over a fifty five year career I have used .470s for four
years and a .458 for maybe six to eight years.
The Rigby .416 was always my weapon of choice and if I was to start
a hunting career all over again the first rifle I would acquire would be a
Rigby .416.

P.S. Layne Simpson's article described the rifle well but it contained many
inaccuracies which I am sure did not originate with Joe Coogan...
he would have known better.
I did not start my career with Ker & Downey Safaris. I started with
Percival and 'African Guides"
Donald Ker was using a Dodge Power Wagon not a Land Rover when he ran
over my .470.
I did not rush back to Nairobi for another rifle, the safari was
just about over anyway and on its way back to Nairobi.
Gunbearer Kidogo was recommended to Ruark not by Hemingway but by an
American by the name of Russel Aitkin who had hunted with Frank Bowman.
Layne also claimed that I never used the rifle again after its return to
Botswana
NOT SO I used it for a number of years. He mentions the bluing worn off the
barrel.....that wear took place after it came back to Botswana chasing buffalo and
tracking lions.
P.P.S.
To conclude I might mention that after I had used to Rigby .416 for a couple
of years and came to appreciate its qualities I decided to do something about the
dimensions of the stock to suit my desire for a very powerful but handy rifle
for my purpose as a professional hunter.

To me the stock was a bit bulky, especially in the forend area and pistol grip
(I really like a slender pistol grip).
Being handy with tools I very carefully shaved the stock down in the areas I
considered 'bulky' until I came up with what I considered just right for me.
The recoil was lively but I could not give a fig about that... I wanted a very
powerful rifle I could swing like a twenty gauge. So infact the stock dimensions
of this rifle probably differ from any rifles coming direct from the Rigby shop.

Naturally all chequering was removed and not having the skill or the tools
to re-chequer I merely gave the carefully sanded and filled surface a good oil finish
The stock remained thus for a number of years ... (see pic of Selbys rifles on safari)
until I moved south and an excellent gunsmith in South Africa rechequered the stock
for me.

When Rigby worked on the rifle, they cleaned up the chequering again and worked
on the overall stock finish in addition to a complete re-bluing job.

I apologise for the rather lengthy response hopefully covering all queries.... in-fact I feel rather like a baboon being debugged by the rest of the troop."

PICS
Harry's rifles on safari left to right .Rigby .416 (notice lack of checkering on stock -bb) , Win mod.70 .375 H&H (stock Westley Richards)
Win. 243 Stock Hal Hartley. Brno .22 long rifle (stock worked on by Selby)
Wootters safari hunting buffalo with Jack Carter ( Selby carrying .Rigby .416)