Looking at the 990 for HSC, not sure what DSC would get out of a merger, other except head count.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
When I first went to DSC, I immediately joined as a life member . Today I regret that .

I joined the NRA and SCI as a LIFE MEMBER in the early 80's.

I think DSC was called Game Coin then??!!

I joined DSC as a LIFE MEMBER years later.

Very sad to see all the organizations that are supposed to look after our interests being hijacked by selfish individuals!

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

I just re-read the DSC bylaws. Nominations for the Board of Directors have to come from the Nominating Committee. While members can suggest people to serve as directors to the Nominating Committee, there is no provision for getting on the ballot by petition of the members unlike the NRA.

Thus, by my reckoning, if you want to regain control of the DSC board and thus the DSC, it will take three years to do it.

Year One - you have to get a bylaw amendment approved to allow for nomination by petition. This won't be easy as you have to both get it on the notice of the meeting for which I'm sure you'll have pushback and you have to get a 2/3rds vote of those present or voting by proxy.

Year Two - you have to get three reform candidates on the ballot by petition and then get them elected.

Year Three - you again get three reform candidates on the ballot by petition and then get them elected. This will give you a majority of the Board with which to make the changes.

You are 100% correct on the time line for drastic changes, that is exactly what I told them in 2020, and it happened. Now we have what we have. As long as the nominating committee is made up of those that caused the change, nothing will happen to reverse it.
As for membership, I believe they currently have less than 8,000 members. One can read board minutes online and read the membership report that gives current monthly numbers. Interestingly, reading these reports showed a huge drop in membership over a two month period, something like a 14,000 member drop. I’m sure it was from their ill fated “free membership” if a convention pass was bought, but still such a drop doesn’t look very good.

Surely the Atlanta shitshow didn't help the DSC membership numbers.

All,
We all see the mess, a mess created by the board and a weak executive director. Leadership drives every organization until it doesn’t, then it implodes.

Hundreds of books have been written on this topic. Current examples - Cracker Barrel, Anheiser Busch (Bud Light), British Petroleum (chasing renewables), Target chasing the queer crowd, the demise of the Dallas Cowboys, and on and on. Leadership is key.

It is not about good vs bad leadership, it is about effective vs ineffective, and who will follow.

In the case of DSC, this is classic implosion. We members had a solid org, good and effective leadership with clear vision and mission. Then, an effective leadership departs (Gray Thornton). The back fill was good guy, but a bureaucrat, an order taker without the needed skills on confronting and navigating a board that was dominated by stronger personalities with agendas.

I get it that boards sometimes stray into the day to day ops, but their mission is to be sure that the mission is on target and to advise the paid director, not tell him how to do his job. At DSC , it seems that the board way overstepped bounds and then rammed through an agenda that was not well envisioned. In other words, they chose to exert influence over the mission, change it by knowing most members bears have no idea what is really going on and vote as many do when you get a proxy on a public company - they vote “ as recommended by the board”. What the members don’t know is that the boards are somewhat like politicians - they “serve” to stay on the board and wield power and influence.

A skilled Exec Director knows this and navigates it. This did not happen at DSC or at the companies I noted above.

Now, what to do?

I believe Karl outlined what it takes to change boards and right the ship. Takes time and money. Is it worth it? Is the organization worth salvaging? Is there a group willing to commit to do this. It will be expensive.

For me personally the answer is no. I am a member but have no stake. Do we really influence conservation, to a small extent, but the overall impact in Africa is not big. I get it that it helps, but the impact is more like a finger plugging a hole in the dam. If the various critter clubs truly wanted to make a difference, then some sort of merger/alliance is needed to maximize financial clout.

I don’t see that happening hence the vast array of critter clubs out there from National Wildlife Federation to the Audubon Society to Friends of Animals - all with their own agendas.

SCI was seriously flawed when McElroy “owned” it. Yet ,they righted the ship only to have it go off the rails again, then today they have again righted the ship. Same thing with Wild Sheep and Grand Slam Ovis. Lawsuits, splits,blah blah blah. But they survived with Wild Sheep being the more pro-active vs Grand Slam being family dominated and a money raiser to pay overhead.

Again, can DSC be “fixed”? Yes, but a tough expensive fight is in store. If the board stays as it is with this new/old exec director, it is likely doomed and SCI or whoever would not need to merge, but be ready to pick up the scraps….

quote:

Originally posted by John Richardson:

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
I know LaPierre had his had in various pots, but can the basic salaries for these orgs CEOs be that good?

No but the size of the organizations are vastly different. At its peak, the NRA had about 5.5 million members and LaPierre was raking it in - both legitimately and otherwise.

According to the 2023 DSC Form 990, Corey Mason was making about $330,000 which would have put him somewhere in the ranks of the divisional managers at the NRA but on the lower end. That said, while I don't know the actual membership of DSC, I'd be surprised if it was over 50,000 members.

Back to the NRA, we have cleaned house. No divisional manager from the LaPierre days is still there and the EVP/CEO is paid a fraction of what LaPierre made in his heyday. The reformers of which I am one have gained control of the NRA and are working hard to rebuild it. Only 3 of what I term the "old guard" are on the ballot in the upcoming 2026 board election. The bottom line is you can clean up an organization but it takes time, effort, and a willingness to demand change.

John Richardson

DSC has around 8,000 members. Remember they brag about not having to be a member to get in the show and it shows!

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

When I was on the SCI BOD, I tried to gather ALL the Presidents of said orgs together, all in one room. My goal was to try to nail down fundraiser dates that didn't create conflict, so the money guys could attend multiple events.

They all said no, we do ours, when we want, you do yours when you want. And THAT is the crux of the problem, egos.

There are only so many hunting conservation dollars to be had out there.

You are correct on the reluctance to work together, when I was DSC Pres, I worked with both Larry Higgins and Steve Skold to get a joint effort of some sort going. Didn’t happen due to boards of both groups. But I did make two good friends!

And now you have many, many friends at SCI!

quote:

Originally posted by Philip Glass:

quote:

Originally posted by John Richardson:

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
I know LaPierre had his had in various pots, but can the basic salaries for these orgs CEOs be that good?

No but the size of the organizations are vastly different. At its peak, the NRA had about 5.5 million members and LaPierre was raking it in - both legitimately and otherwise.

According to the 2023 DSC Form 990, Corey Mason was making about $330,000 which would have put him somewhere in the ranks of the divisional managers at the NRA but on the lower end. That said, while I don't know the actual membership of DSC, I'd be surprised if it was over 50,000 members.

Back to the NRA, we have cleaned house. No divisional manager from the LaPierre days is still there and the EVP/CEO is paid a fraction of what LaPierre made in his heyday. The reformers of which I am one have gained control of the NRA and are working hard to rebuild it. Only 3 of what I term the "old guard" are on the ballot in the upcoming 2026 board election. The bottom line is you can clean up an organization but it takes time, effort, and a willingness to demand change.

John Richardson

DSC has around 8,000 members. Remember they brag about not having to be a member to get in the show and it shows!

They should brag about it as that made them different and let the general public learn about what these groups do for wildlife They do plenty of stupid stuff but thats not one of them.Be great when one of the groups finally realize reaching out the genera public is not a bad thing Talking to fellow hunters and handing out awards to hunters should not be all the groups and shows are about.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

When I was on the SCI BOD, I tried to gather ALL the Presidents of said orgs together, all in one room. My goal was to try to nail down fundraiser dates that didn't create conflict, so the money guys could attend multiple events.

They all said no, we do ours, when we want, you do yours when you want. And THAT is the crux of the problem, egos.

There are only so many hunting conservation dollars to be had out there.

You are correct on the reluctance to work together, when I was DSC Pres, I worked with both Larry Higgins and Steve Skold to get a joint effort of some sort going. Didn’t happen due to boards of both groups. But I did make two good friends!

What really highlighted the need to have non-conflicting fundraisers was; We had several "special" tags every year. We usually were awarded from the AZGFD the Governors Coues deer tag. We also were normally given a Navajo Nation Mule Deer tag. They are very low return (margin wise) auction items but bring dollars into the room.

When the auction starts, phone bidders That were at OTHER FUNDRAISERS won most of the time. So, we get no profit from the AZGFD tags and IIRC, 10% from the Navajo nation, yet they aren't in the room to buy raffle tickets or anything else.

All we got was credit card fee's that we couldn't pass along.

I was really attempting to get phone bids stopped when I left the BOD.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

I just re-read the DSC bylaws. Nominations for the Board of Directors have to come from the Nominating Committee. While members can suggest people to serve as directors to the Nominating Committee, there is no provision for getting on the ballot by petition of the members unlike the NRA.

Thus, by my reckoning, if you want to regain control of the DSC board and thus the DSC, it will take three years to do it.

Year One - you have to get a bylaw amendment approved to allow for nomination by petition. This won't be easy as you have to both get it on the notice of the meeting for which I'm sure you'll have pushback and you have to get a 2/3rds vote of those present or voting by proxy.

Year Two - you have to get three reform candidates on the ballot by petition and then get them elected.

Year Three - you again get three reform candidates on the ballot by petition and then get them elected. This will give you a majority of the Board with which to make the changes.

You are 100% correct on the time line for drastic changes, that is exactly what I told them in 2020, and it happened. Now we have what we have. As long as the nominating committee is made up of those that caused the change, nothing will happen to reverse it.
As for membership, I believe they currently have less than 8,000 members. One can read board minutes online and read the membership report that gives current monthly numbers. Interestingly, reading these reports showed a huge drop in membership over a two month period, something like a 14,000 member drop. I’m sure it was from their ill fated “free membership” if a convention pass was bought, but still such a drop doesn’t look very good.

Karl, I find this really interesting that DSC isn’t in stronger shape, given what their membership size was formerly. Also, others comments about all the critter clubs diluting the effectiveness of each intrigues me.

I termed off of the California Waterfowl Association (CWA) Board of Directors a few years ago, but am still very involved with their financial management (I’m involved with admin & finance, lobbying; as well as being their banker), so I find the basic DSC numbers interesting. CWA membership sits around 22,000; rising after a Covid era decline down to 12,000 members. Financially though, DSC & CWA are worlds apart. CWA has nearly $50,000,000 in assets and annual revenue exceeding $15,000,000. Staff is around 75 paid with hundreds of volunteers. Our CEO makes about $240,000 a year to run a much bigger and more effective organization that actually gets a ton of good work done in California for waterfowl & wetlands. We don’t have a national presence like DSC enjoys, we’re just a state organization.

Given their relatively similar historical membership sizes, how is it that DSC doesn’t have similar numbers? I expected their numbers to be much more like CWA’s and am surprised they’re not.

quote:

Given their relatively similar historical membership sizes, how is it that DSC doesn’t have similar numbers? I expected their numbers to be much more like CWA’s and am surprised they’re not.

Dan, I believe some of it is salaries. I think DSC currently has fewer than 20 full time employees and all are very well paid (in my opinion some are way over paid). I can’t find the recently departed ED salary posted anywhere but I was told he had requested a salary between $400K and $500K. That seems high to me and if I’ve misspoken, I’ll correct it.
Office manager makes almost $200K, auction manager over $100K. Don’t know what their convention manager and operations manager make, but certainly well over $100K. It would be interesting to see what the current “burn rate” might be, a few years ago, when such information was available the burn rate was around $200K.
They no longer publicize grant amounts awarded, and I wonder if all grants are publicized. It seems as though some grants have been going to individuals closely associated to the board (advisors, etc.) that is a pretty new practice, too. Might be worthy recipients, but optics aren’t too good to some.

Membership has always ebbed and flowed, retaining members is a challenge, especially if the members have limited opportunities to participate (these opportunities are becoming more frequent of late) and I’m not sure if staff or any volunteer committee is “following up” with those members whose membership is up for renewal.

The most current Form 990 available online is from 2023 so I doubt the numbers given there are really relevant after the disastrous Atlanta convention. Financials are supposed to be available upon request to any member but I doubt accurate information would be given.

I heard similar numbers. No idea if they are correct.

What really bothers me is some of the underhanded BS that DSC has done over the last few years. For example, spreading a false rumor that the SCI show was cancelled and to not ship things for the show to Vegas . There are others .

What another shame.

I detest self-promoters of every stripe.

From the petty to the grandiose.

Nothing good ever comes from egotism.

I got tired of the DSC magazine and only went to 2-3 conventions!!
I dropped my membership when they moved Convention to Atlanta!! I'll be too old to go if it comes back to Texas in 2028!!
I don't miss them!!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
What another shame.

I detest self-promoters of every stripe.

From the petty to the grandiose.

Nothing good ever comes from egotism.

Exactly!

Sadly, You have the biggest self promoter in history in the White House!

Seems many wish to follow in his footsteps!