Ok gents, let see what you think about this: Over the course of the last few weeks, I've carefully screened many hunting videos, including all of the Sullivan tapes, Capstick and the Through-The -Crosshairs series. I noticed one common thread, in that virtually all of the animals from lion on down that were shot with Weatherby cartridges ( and I focused on them because their rifles are easy to pick out and I do use them myself) dropped to the shot and required no follow up if not for an "insurance" round after it was obvious the animal was down. Now I'll be the first to admit that I would not personally use a Weatherby or any other push-feed action on dangerous game, it was very evident to me that Weatherby rounds killed with much more authority than other calibers on animals listed on the subject line. I have to tell you that I was real careful in my observations and what I am saying is definetly visible. Now I don't want to start a Mark Sullivan or Weatherby Lynch mob here, but based on what I saw AND my own experience with Weatherby and other high velocity rounds on the type of animal mentioned above, the killing effect of velocity seemed to be there. I know this is totally an empirical observation, but nevertheless there it is. I must also add, that virtually every game I have shot with my 257, 7mm and 300 Weatherby have all dropped on the spot. Sure I had lots of meat damage sometiems, but I am an unabashed trophy hunter and the meat is purely secondary. jorge

Personatly I've been to Africa twice with a .378 weatherby and factory loads with 300 grains Hornady soft point!

That is not my general observation. I've shot
3 head of game (red cape heaterbeast, oryx and springbock) in africa. Non of them fell on the spot! Ran between a couple of yards and 100 yards. Besides I've seen about 30 head of game taken with the round (Red flanked duicker to Giant eland) Some of the fell in their tracks other ran of and died within 200 yards!

The same I've been tolled about the .340 wea - which I don't have any personal esperience with.

So my answer to your question: Any game can be killed instantly - and any cartdrige can do it. The smaller game and the bigger round - the greater chance.

Regards

Mads

If that is your point then I surdently disagree with you!

Could you pleas try to make your point more clear?

And Jorge's post said weatherby cartdriges used on movies! Well if its the same movies that the ones I've seen, then I seriously doubt that lions are taken withe rifles smaller than .338.

Regards

Mads

Thus they are easier to kill.

As far as "Weatherby" cartridges go they just create a fast blood pressure drop on light boned thin skin game that's all. So will any extreme velocity bullet.

The big slow bullets are not as impressive in their kills, but are certainly positive..

I call it the turtle and the hair syndrome, I'll go with the turtle, especially on big mean harry stuff..

For Buffalo, Moose, Eland, Elephant, Hippo you can have the velocity guns and you just may have to eat them someday..I am sure of this and I have personally seen this on more than several occasions.

On deer, antelope, most cats (not lion IMHO) the hi-vel guns are pretty impressive, but do destroy meat in abundance, and I find that improper wheather your primarily a trophy hunter or not. Excessive waste of anykind in a protien starved country is bordering on criminal, and to not care tells me you have not been there and seen what I have seen.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Weatherby invented the Hydrostatic Shock �theory� - which by the way was pure marketing hype. Unfortunately, it sorta made logical sense, so many folks were suckered into this belief. At the end of the day, the only physical principles which apply here are - bullet velocity, bullet weight, bullet diameter, bullet construction, and stopping medium.

It makes no difference the case design, attitude of the animal, scope used, distance from the animal, length of barrel, trigger pull weight, what the animal had for dinner, or even gun manufacturer (sorry Weatherby). Obviously, you cannot bring up this subject without quickly digressing into the equally arcane, age old �killing power� debate.

Here is THE question - Assuming all things being equal, you have two bullets delivering 5,000 ft/lbs of energy to the same target. One bullet is traveling at 3,200fps with a small cross section and one is traveling at 1,800 fps with a large cross section. Which one kills quicker?

Here is another question - Which bullet arrives in Chicago first?

And yet another - Why does a Kevlar vest stop bullets and not knives?

quote:

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Here is THE question - Assuming all things being equal, you have two bullets delivering 5,000 ft/lbs of energy to the same target. One bullet is traveling at 3,200fps with a small cross section and one is traveling at 1,800 fps with a large cross section. Which one kills quicker?

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Nick - Actually - YOU answered the primary question as to why speed kills - bullet performance. Unless you are dealing with FMJ bullets, higher impact velocities will open bullets quicker and thus impart more tissue damage. IF speed alone killed, then we would all be shooting FMJ bullets at hyper-velocities. IF hydrostatic shock were in play, FMJ bullets would work just as well as controlled expansion bullets. Both would impart the same ft/lbs of energy.

However, as we all know from actual hunting experiences, FMJ bullets do not work as well as controlled expansion bullets. As Ray pointed out when shooting, buff, ele, rhino, etc. penetration is much more important than velocity. In a perfect world, a 500gr bullet traveling at 3,500 fps would flatten armored personnel carriers. Recoil would be a bitch however.

Norbert - bullet weight would be the variable in the question that I imposed. The constant was 5,000 ft/lbs. In order for both bullets to achieve the same ft/lbs of energy, the higher velocity bullet would be the lighter projectile, and the lower velocity bullet would be the heaver projectile.

Mads

Could it be that shots with poor results, spectacular failures were
edited out of the videos? Did Weatherby or the ammo makers sponsor the video's in any way?

Peter

Zero. Zip. Doesn't exist. "No such thing."

It's abused as often as "jumbo shrimp."

Death is caused in all living creatures by one of two means:

1. Disconnecting the central nervous system.
2. Rapid blood loss.

You can either drain a lot of blood with one big hole, or you can drain a lot of blood with lots of little holes, or you can apply a disconnect to the central nervous system.

At the risk of fanning the flames of "flame wars"... "cartridges" don't kill. Bullets kill. Bullet "design" kills. Bullet "construction" kills. Velocity is only a factor in getting the bullet to perform as it was designed. "Slow" works better with some bullets, "fast" works better with others.

Someone touched on physiology and that is very important. Some animals have "slow" nervous systems, in that they soak up a lot of lead before their brains figure out they're supposed to die. Other animals have "faster" (or "more developed" if you wish) nervous systems and their brains get the message pretty quickly that they're supposed to die. So the herbivore/carnivore comment piqued my interest in this regard.

And of course, I don't know anything, so feel free to rip this post apart.

Russ

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"Out here, 'due process' is a bullet!" -- John Wayne, "The Green Berets"

Not so with the .358 Winchester.

I don't know whether there is anything similar between the langaroo, goat, pig and the leopards etc.

My experience has been that if the big bore slow bullet is soft then the "drop on the spot" affect is much greater thah with the 270 or 300 mags etc.

It seems to me if kineteic enery is similar and that both bullets are contructed so as to exand well, then the bigger bore with more momentum is easily the best.

Examples for me have been the 220 Hornady flat point in the 375 loaded to around 2500, which has similar energy to the 270 and 308 and also the 400 grain Speer in the 458 at around 2100 which has similar energy to the 300 Win.

In both cases on the pig, kangaroo and goat they are way out of the league of the 270 and 308.

By the way, a 300 Hornady hollow point out of the 458 when used in the spotlight make a 270 look very unimpressive.

Mike

You are right.
The hydrostatic shock doesn�t exist. It is often mixed up with the hydrodynamic pressure wave, caused by the bypassing bullet. And this may affect the central nervous system resulting in knock down for a while or even a kill.
The medical shock and the physical shock are two different things.