HYDROSTASIS AND IT'S EFFECT ON BIG CATS AND MEDIUM GAME

30 April 2002, 17:55

Ok gents, let see what you think about this: Over the course of the last few weeks, I've carefully screened many hunting videos, including all of the Sullivan tapes, Capstick and the Through-The -Crosshairs series. I noticed one common thread, in that virtually all of the animals from lion on down that were shot with Weatherby cartridges ( and I focused on them because their rifles are easy to pick out and I do use them myself) dropped to the shot and required no follow up if not for an "insurance" round after it was obvious the animal was down. Now I'll be the first to admit that I would not personally use a Weatherby or any other push-feed action on dangerous game, it was very evident to me that Weatherby rounds killed with much more authority than other calibers on animals listed on the subject line. I have to tell you that I was real careful in my observations and what I am saying is definetly visible. Now I don't want to start a Mark Sullivan or Weatherby Lynch mob here, but based on what I saw AND my own experience with Weatherby and other high velocity rounds on the type of animal mentioned above, the killing effect of velocity seemed to be there. I know this is totally an empirical observation, but nevertheless there it is. I must also add, that virtually every game I have shot with my 257, 7mm and 300 Weatherby have all dropped on the spot. Sure I had lots of meat damage sometiems, but I am an unabashed trophy hunter and the meat is purely secondary. jorge

01 May 2002, 09:49

<Mads>

Well Jorge at least that was what Roy W. said it would!

Personatly I've been to Africa twice with a .378 weatherby and factory loads with 300 grains Hornady soft point!

That is not my general observation. I've shot
3 head of game (red cape heaterbeast, oryx and springbock) in africa. Non of them fell on the spot! Ran between a couple of yards and 100 yards. Besides I've seen about 30 head of game taken with the round (Red flanked duicker to Giant eland) Some of the fell in their tracks other ran of and died within 200 yards!

The same I've been tolled about the .340 wea - which I don't have any personal esperience with.

So my answer to your question: Any game can be killed instantly - and any cartdrige can do it. The smaller game and the bigger round - the greater chance.

Regards

Mads

30 April 2002, 22:31

Nickudu

Jorge,
This is a risky post as people don't read carefully. Already, we have a 300 grain .375 bullet being held up against the range of calibers and the degree of bullet frangibility you are alluding to.
You are completely correct in your observation, in my opinion. The .270 Winchester would serve well to demonstrate high potential for one shot kills. High velocity and suitably frangible bullets for the game at hand, will regularly produce lightening fast kills on behind the shoulder lungshots.
Is this the bullet/velocity criteria of choice for all game and all shot presentations? Of course not. That's not what you're saying. But for many game animals in many situations it is.

30 April 2002, 23:07

<Mads>

NIckudu: ?????????
what are you saying? That a 130 grains bullet from fired at 3000 fps is more deadly than a 300 grains bullet at 2950 fps?

If that is your point then I surdently disagree with you!

Could you pleas try to make your point more clear?

And Jorge's post said weatherby cartdriges used on movies! Well if its the same movies that the ones I've seen, then I seriously doubt that lions are taken withe rifles smaller than .338.

Regards

Mads

01 May 2002, 03:13

<Don Martin29>

I hope this thread continues on a predator vrs herbavour discussion. On another forum long ago a Dane posted that predators (cats) do not have the same resistance to blood pressure drop as do the animals they prey on (herbavours).

Thus they are easier to kill.

As far as "Weatherby" cartridges go they just create a fast blood pressure drop on light boned thin skin game that's all. So will any extreme velocity bullet.

01 May 2002, 04:08

Atkinson

I am convienced that velocity kills the high strung animals very quickly and is impressive indeed, that is "most" of the time and therein lies the problem....

The big slow bullets are not as impressive in their kills, but are certainly positive..

I call it the turtle and the hair syndrome, I'll go with the turtle, especially on big mean harry stuff..

For Buffalo, Moose, Eland, Elephant, Hippo you can have the velocity guns and you just may have to eat them someday..I am sure of this and I have personally seen this on more than several occasions.

On deer, antelope, most cats (not lion IMHO) the hi-vel guns are pretty impressive, but do destroy meat in abundance, and I find that improper wheather your primarily a trophy hunter or not. Excessive waste of anykind in a protien starved country is bordering on criminal, and to not care tells me you have not been there and seen what I have seen.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

01 May 2002, 04:48

Zero Drift

The ole Velocity VS Caliber argument; what fun.

Weatherby invented the Hydrostatic Shock ï¿½theoryï¿½ - which by the way was pure marketing hype. Unfortunately, it sorta made logical sense, so many folks were suckered into this belief. At the end of the day, the only physical principles which apply here are - bullet velocity, bullet weight, bullet diameter, bullet construction, and stopping medium.

It makes no difference the case design, attitude of the animal, scope used, distance from the animal, length of barrel, trigger pull weight, what the animal had for dinner, or even gun manufacturer (sorry Weatherby). Obviously, you cannot bring up this subject without quickly digressing into the equally arcane, age old ï¿½killing powerï¿½ debate.

Here is THE question - Assuming all things being equal, you have two bullets delivering 5,000 ft/lbs of energy to the same target. One bullet is traveling at 3,200fps with a small cross section and one is traveling at 1,800 fps with a large cross section. Which one kills quicker?

Here is another question - Which bullet arrives in Chicago first?

And yet another - Why does a Kevlar vest stop bullets and not knives?

01 May 2002, 04:52

DB Bill

MADS...think the velocity for the 300gr .375 H&H would be more like 2500 fps rather than 2950 fps.

01 May 2002, 07:29

Nickudu

Hi Zero,
I believe you're answering the question that Mads is asking without realizing it. On light to medium game, assuming the hit I described, you will achieve a higher % of one shot, instantaneous kills with the high velocity / frangible bullet than you would with heavier, larger caliber bullets that are constructed to penetrate and provide a more controlled rate of expansion. Do I prefer this approach? No. Does that mean it has no merit? No.
The .25-06 with 100 grainers, the .270 with 130's, the 7 mags with 140's,the .300 Mags with 150's are all valid examples of
the principles Jorge has put forth, when fast opening bullets are employed. I prefer bullets that will dig deeper and allow a wider range of shots but, as the saying goes, you can't have it all in one design.

01 May 2002, 08:03

<Norbert>

quote:
Here is THE question - Assuming all things being equal, you have two bullets delivering 5,000 ft/lbs of energy to the same target. One bullet is traveling at 3,200fps with a small cross section and one is traveling at 1,800 fps with a large cross section. Which one kills quicker?

All things can not being equal. At least also the weight must be different. The difficulty with this question is, we do not known the drag function in the animal. It can be assumed, like the drag in air, that the faster bullet looses its velocity and energy much quicker than the slower one. And with respect to killing we have to look upon how much of the energy is delivered in the vitals. Unfortunately most of the bullets energy is dissipated on the very first inches of penetration with no effect on killing. A rough estimation shows, that if the vitals are at 1/2 of the total possible penetration length, the energy of the bullet there is about 13 % of the total energy. If the vitals at 1/3 of the penetration, the energy is about 20 %, and if the vitals are at 1/4 of the total penetration, the energy is about 50 %.

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01 May 2002, 08:20

Zero Drift

First off, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the points made in this thread. I've got my own opinions and they are a highly guarded secret. I am not in the sharing mood today.

Nick - Actually - YOU answered the primary question as to why speed kills - bullet performance. Unless you are dealing with FMJ bullets, higher impact velocities will open bullets quicker and thus impart more tissue damage. IF speed alone killed, then we would all be shooting FMJ bullets at hyper-velocities. IF hydrostatic shock were in play, FMJ bullets would work just as well as controlled expansion bullets. Both would impart the same ft/lbs of energy.

However, as we all know from actual hunting experiences, FMJ bullets do not work as well as controlled expansion bullets. As Ray pointed out when shooting, buff, ele, rhino, etc. penetration is much more important than velocity. In a perfect world, a 500gr bullet traveling at 3,500 fps would flatten armored personnel carriers. Recoil would be a bitch however.

Norbert - bullet weight would be the variable in the question that I imposed. The constant was 5,000 ft/lbs. In order for both bullets to achieve the same ft/lbs of energy, the higher velocity bullet would be the lighter projectile, and the lower velocity bullet would be the heaver projectile.

01 May 2002, 19:52

jorge

Look folks, I'm not asking for a consensus here. What I postulated was based on observation on the cats and medium sized game which in my opinion stops at around 250lb. I didn't ask whether meat damage was good or bad, only that it happens. This was an empirical observation and not scientific fact. I continue to stand on my theory. Every cat and med game shot on those videos with high vel rounds, droped on the spot. If *I* ever go for lion, I'll be using a 375 H&H or a 416 Rigby but if the situation presents itself and I'm carrying a 300 Weatherby with a good bullet, guess what? I'm taking the shot with COMPLETE CONFIDENCE!

02 May 2002, 09:53

<Mads>

DB BILL: Who besides you is talking about the .375 H&H regarding my post?

Mads

01 May 2002, 22:11

Pete E

jorge,

Could it be that shots with poor results, spectacular failures were
edited out of the videos? Did Weatherby or the ammo makers sponsor the video's in any way?

Peter

02 May 2002, 01:24

John S

jorge-
It's no secret that I am confirmed 300mag. believer, and the videos you mentioned showed you some of the reasons for my affinity towards that casing. While I have not shot a lion with my 300mag, I would have absolutely no qualms about doing it. Allen Day flattened two buffalo with a single shot apiece using his 300mag. Now that reflects more upon AD's skill as a marksman, but it shows what can be done if the guy pulling the trigger knows his stuff!
I have shot several leopards with the 300mag and will say they are absolute poison on the spotted devils. I've also used them on all manner of plains game, ranging from duikers to eland and have never found their performance to be anything but superb. Loaded with proper bullets, IMO they are the single best caliber for any plains game hunting anywhere, with the possible exception of giant eland. And even in that instance I'm not so sure they wouldn't work just fine.
I've also used a 375 and a 338 as a light rifle and suffered no problems, except for the increased recoil and total lack of the lightening bolt effect results the 300 and other high velocity rounds can deliver. They kill reliably and very well, but no more so than a properly loaded high speed cartridge. In my experience they also do not penetrate one bit better, given premium bullets are used in the 300s, etc. A 180gr Fail Safe or Barnes X will penetrate as far as anything you can shove out of a 375.

02 May 2002, 09:36

jorge

None of the videos I saw were sponsored by Weatherby or any other manufacturer. John, al I can tell you is that the three lions and four leopards I saw shot with a Weatherby were "electrocuted" into inmobility. When it came to buffalo, it was definetly a function of shot placement, i.e, the spine or brain that produced instant results regardless of caliber. Just for the sake of discussion, the worse performance I saw was out of a 500 Jeffery bolt action with 500 grain solids. All shots ( except the last one at close range with the animal charging) could be seen going right through the buffalo's lung area with no effect. the damned thing just stood there. But I digress from my original postulation on high velocity vs cats and medium game. jorge

02 May 2002, 12:54

Russell E. Taylor

As hunters apply "hydrostatic shock," there is no such thing.

Zero. Zip. Doesn't exist. "No such thing."

It's abused as often as "jumbo shrimp."

Death is caused in all living creatures by one of two means:

1. Disconnecting the central nervous system.
2. Rapid blood loss.

You can either drain a lot of blood with one big hole, or you can drain a lot of blood with lots of little holes, or you can apply a disconnect to the central nervous system.

At the risk of fanning the flames of "flame wars"... "cartridges" don't kill. Bullets kill. Bullet "design" kills. Bullet "construction" kills. Velocity is only a factor in getting the bullet to perform as it was designed. "Slow" works better with some bullets, "fast" works better with others.

Someone touched on physiology and that is very important. Some animals have "slow" nervous systems, in that they soak up a lot of lead before their brains figure out they're supposed to die. Other animals have "faster" (or "more developed" if you wish) nervous systems and their brains get the message pretty quickly that they're supposed to die. So the herbivore/carnivore comment piqued my interest in this regard.

And of course, I don't know anything, so feel free to rip this post apart.

Russ

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"Out here, 'due process' is a bullet!" -- John Wayne, "The Green Berets"

02 May 2002, 15:57

<Savage 99>

I don't agree at all with this SCI/Weatherby fantasy. I find that large flat or blunt nosed bullets are more reliable. I have seen many deer get up after being hit with a 7mm Remington Magnum.

Not so with the .358 Winchester.

02 May 2002, 16:26

Mike375

I am with Savage 99.

I don't know whether there is anything similar between the langaroo, goat, pig and the leopards etc.

My experience has been that if the big bore slow bullet is soft then the "drop on the spot" affect is much greater thah with the 270 or 300 mags etc.

It seems to me if kineteic enery is similar and that both bullets are contructed so as to exand well, then the bigger bore with more momentum is easily the best.

Examples for me have been the 220 Hornady flat point in the 375 loaded to around 2500, which has similar energy to the 270 and 308 and also the 400 grain Speer in the 458 at around 2100 which has similar energy to the 300 Win.

In both cases on the pig, kangaroo and goat they are way out of the league of the 270 and 308.

By the way, a 300 Hornady hollow point out of the 458 when used in the spotlight make a 270 look very unimpressive.

Mike

02 May 2002, 23:22

<Norbert>

Russ,

You are right.
The hydrostatic shock doesnï¿½t exist. It is often mixed up with the hydrodynamic pressure wave, caused by the bypassing bullet. And this may affect the central nervous system resulting in knock down for a while or even a kill.
The medical shock and the physical shock are two different things.