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I've had guys come up and ask if they can try shooting off my homemade sticks when I'm at the range. Kinda refreshing to see they are as bad as I was the first couple times. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Steve Robertson,Matt Graham,Dave Fulson,J. Brown, ddr Hook and others I compliment you on your understanding the value of truly first class professional instruction and coaching. For the skeptics and nay sayers. The dark adhesive kill zone/KZ can be used or an adhesive backed, natural photo insert used. The KZ then looks natural. The natural will not always show up well on camera hence a black area for photos and digital camera. In early training black can be used to assist student in mental placement of KZ and later the natural. The target backing is a ballistic foam designed to allow for adhesive target change out and sealing after pass thru of bullet. The targets are animated or move. And as to the brain shot angle etc. we are cognizant of of placement depending on distance and head and body positioning. Please notice the instructors qualifications. These men are up to date on shooter training,equiptment,teaching skills and know what works as they have trained thousands for special operations /moving targets. All have been career special operators. If you or anyone on AR would like.. send me your address and I will be pleased to mail you a DVD on the SAAM Africa instruction /training. I think a modification in some opinions would occur at least to some who are open minded. Many speak perhaps based on their own experience of training in the military or those who own sufficient land to have their own range. Perhaps there are range facilities with in reasonable proximity and time to enjoy those luxuries for others. Consider there are many people that do not have the good fortune of facilities to practice often or even hunter / shooter friends to assist developing top notch hunter shooter skills. In other AR threads I do not see some aggressive stance taken toward the cost and need such places afford such as Gunsite and Thunder Ranch where top professional personnel and modern facilities are available. As to cost of SAAM training, one should remember this is 5 nights, 4 full days(not 2)of intense class room,range and field work. Further investigation would reveal that SAAM is not only 4 days but also includes first class meals,beverage,lodge,lodging,service and equiptment. ( in some training elsewhere you are on your own for meals,lodging and travel time to and from motel all at additional cost to student). All of SAAM Africa is designed by long time hunting professionals who have contributed to a work based on first hand knowledge of what they see lacking in some hunters and focus on skills that are desired in their clientele. Some hunters have, perhaps, special issues such as loss of a dominate eye or limb. Then there are those who are new and do not have the years of experience that some of you are fortunate to have under your belt. Some are just poor shots or developed bad habits and are responsible enough a recognise the need for professional assistance. And how does a sniper get ready for the real thing? Professional training. Expensive? Certainly. Yet it is cost efficient and safer than a "trial and train by error" approach. Send a PM and I will have a DVD sent and perhaps one can gain a better picture. Elton Rambin "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" --Ben Franklin Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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It looks like expensive fun but for me I will just have to practice on pig, deer, and targets at my farm I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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There are some great posts in this thread... talking about good instruction... a great shooting instructor once said to me about his pupils ... "they dont even know, what they dont know"... it sounded too cryptic and arrogant for me when he said it at the time but after a while I understood that he was right and not arrogant at all. You may have a lot of experience and might think you understand all your strengths and weaknesses but there are 'things' that your good instructor KNOWS that you havent even thought of yet!! Things that cant be adequetly explained or taught from a book, DVD or other self-instruction. It's like golf - try getting an even mediocre championship swing from 100 great instruction books and movies .... and compare that to 10x 1 hour sessions with a top-class professional!! Anyone who has swung a golf club knows what I mean. I rate myself as a pretty decent shot and I instruct shooters and hunters in the field for much of the year. I was mostly self-taught, shooting meat for a living - and I spent some pretty hungry weeks for a while... With all that - I had the pleasure a couple of years ago of spending some time during a hunt with Il ling New from Gunsite Academy.... Holy crap - I am an instructor and she told me things and gave me shooting tips even I had never heard of or thought of before!!! That's the deal with pro-instruction IMO... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt With all my training I guess you probably expect me to hit the monster, record breaking, gold medal ( hell, lets go for platinum medal) water buffalo you are going to find me next year !!!! Dave Fulson | |||
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If you expect me to find such a creature then hell yes I expect you to hit it GOOD .... multiple times!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Elton, Sounds like a great course! I wish you only the best and I'm sure it'll serve those in the DG hunting community well who would like to take advantage of your offering! I've never hunted DG yet, this would be no doubt COOL  Good luck! | |||
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Venor ne letare, sed ne pilamalleus lusi ... That's close if not perfect - and one of the best reasons I've heard. | |||
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I've been shooting since I was 7 yrs old and I have and did learn a lot from Chip and Elton just from being around them about different styles and situations when shooting especialy DG. | |||
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I grew up in South Alabama squirrel hunting. My father taught me to shoot them running out a limb with a .22. Done a lot of trap shooting. Deflection shooting takes practice. I've downed wild hogs and impala at a dead run. Some guys very likely need to practice on moving targets. I've never had a problem with them. Good training as a child has provided a lifetime of satisfaction. | |||
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Well like I said before it works for you but I am talking about real life statistics mate - you survey any group of professional hunters on the abilities of their clients, on average, and if they are honest with you - you wont like the answer. I hate to be the one to break it to you but the average hunter cant shoot properly, especially under pressure!![/QUOTE] Matt, I would love to check the stats on the professional hunter community that can properly due open heart surgery, or even wait a 4 table section in my families restaurant on a friday night! It's very simple for you guys to cast stones at us, but completely un-realistic. For your profession, stalking in close on buffs or eles is an everyday thing, now, for the guy who's saved his whole life to travel to a safari, has more than enough on his mind to cause him to be shaky. Now, we all have professions, and I'm sure your not that great at mine, I've seen many big wigs miss, and make poor shots, and if you say you haven't then you haven't been hunting long! This is a great course, and if money were no object, that signing up for this would be a blast...however, this is in no way necessary training for anyone who's wanting to book a hunt for anything! The other thing is simple, it's all about being lucky! On my last trip, my good friend brought his brother... His brother is one of those sniper shooters that can tell you how many clicks this and that, this powder...blah blah blah...he brought his super-duper custom made rifle, breaks, scopes, adjustable cheek piece..the works. He regularly shoots at to 1000yrds, 500 easy, he's very good at shooting! He couldn't hit hartebeest at 75 yds, 100 yds, or even 150 yds....(same hartebeest) he kept wanting to shoot them at further range...it was comical! This guy shoots everyday...and had a pitiful safari bc he was worthless on the real deal... I personally shoot a month before a trip, once a week, 10-15 rounds at paper, because if you can put the bullet where you want, doesn't matter what you're pointing at! | |||
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Oryx, I think the point some of us are trying to make is that the average hunting client can't shoot as well as he ought to..... that isn't a criticism of clients because we all understand they have very busy lives and don't have as much time as they'd like to practice through the year. Rather it's an observation of fact and extending the logic proves that attending a SAAM course would improve their shooting skills which would in turn benefit both the client and probably also his wallet. Looking at it another way, most hunter's marksmanship improves as they progress through their hunt. If they were as good at the beginning as they are at the end, they'd have a more successful and even more enjoyable hunt....... the SAAM course would achieve that. As Matt pointed out earlier, the average AR member probably doesn't equate to the average client because they're keener and on average probably practice more. | |||
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Well gentlemen that about says it all! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Steve, I fully understand where the pros/cons of this course are, my thoughts are this, what is practice??? It's doing the same thing over and over again, and the truth is, that a 4 day course is great if you're leaving for your hunt on day 5...however, in all reality, there will probably be long lapses in time, and therefore, you won't be this primed shooter! People who are good shots, AR members or not, usually have spent a lifetime getting there! Again, I will say, I think the course would be a riot with some friends for a weekend. | |||
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I see your point but would suggest this course is vastly superior to shooting paper..... when you see the DVD, you'll see what I mean. There are what I call true born riflemen out there that seem to be able to pick up a rifle and just shoot like a dream but frankly there ain't many of them. Most people have to work at it and I reckon this course would be great for them.... in fact, even the true born riflemen would learn something if it was to be their first safari. | |||
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For what it's worth, you can teach someone to shoot, but you can't teach "grace under pressure". | |||
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Yeah Oryx - I wasnt casting any stones at clients and I reckon you are right - bet theres a lot of PH's out there who cant shoot for damn either. I am just talking about averages. With regard the practice - well practice, practice man, as the topic says but the difference to my mind about good instruction is that when you DO practice afterward, you are practicing with a better style and the new methods of thinking about how to prepare yourself and proceed. Practicing bad habits for example is just a waste of time and will get you nowhere (or less anyhow). I think my golf pro analogy is very close to the mark. Its like practicing a bad swing - where will that get you?? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Steve. I think you are speaking of practice as maintance? Am I correct? And it is true, most have busy lives and maintance is somtimes difficult. SAAM Africa is not practice before a hunt.However,I would recommend SAAM Africa trainning prior to an African hunt. Practice should have some precursors those being...proper, instruction,training,developed skills and confidence based on retention of the fore mentioned. Proper practice is only a latter component to help maintain a probable fading asset. Matt said" Practicing bad habits for example is just a waste of time..." Proper practice is to slow the detoriation or maintain an attained level. SAAM Africa is not practice and all materials state we are focused to instruction and training. With proper training, coaching and maintenance (on going repair) skills may be kept in check with proper disiplined practice. SAAM Africa is a confidence course based on attained skills and the realistic phycological ownership to use those skills with rock solid ablity and confidence. As to being a hoot..Hope so. I do not know...most I think are tired on completion. All seem to go home with a smile like their teeth were hot.  Elton Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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Sure sounds interesting... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Guys, I've guided hunters for 18 years. Hundreds of them for sure. I actually think most client/hunters shoot fairly decent, and I think they have gotten better in recent years. The problem I see much more commonly than poor shooting, is poor overall skill in the field, I'll explain what I mean. Most hunters I see simply aren't killers! They are not quick to see the game, they are not quick to ID the right one, many times they are not in the physical condition needed to hunt hard, and they are not often aware of the necessity to KILL IT NOW, etc, etc. If they have the time often needed to make the shot, they make it. But when its time to "get with the program", and kill it in a hurry, often they just can't get er done. I've had clients miss many more opportunities at big animals from lack of "killer instinct", than poor shooting. Problem is, not sure there's anyway to practice for that?? Now please know, I do not mean that as an insult in anyway, just as an observation. And as Oryx mentioned, most hunters are not in the field NEAR as much as a guide/PH. So as a guide, I totally understand all of this, and try my best to accommodate the need of the hunter to the situation. Unfortunately, you can't always tell the animal to do the same. Some of the big deer & elk that have gotten away from my clients made me want to cry, and more than once I wanted badly to rip the gun from his hands and shoot it myself. | |||
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Hey Aaron I really think that all those points would be included in what we were talking about - not just putting a bullet on target in different field positions. One of the biggest 'faults' I see in the field is the lack of understanding of how a scope actually works and how to use it properly (aquire and kill) - and this may be a lot of what you are talking about in your post above (speed of aquiring target and taking a successful shot) - we know how important this is with deer and antelope... they dont stick around!! I dont know how the other courses teach it but for me the rifle scope is meant to simply be a magnifying glass in front of your eye, an extension of your eye, allowing you to see the target better and make a better shot. That may sound like baby stuff but sooo many hunters have problems with aquiring targets because they use their rifle scope like a spotting scope and go 'searching' for the target. I train people to keep staring at the prospective target (both eyes open!!) and raise the rifle to the should and the scope covers the view and the prospective target pops up in the scope... just like magic. The difference is when your pupil stays steady on the target the scope just acts like a magnifying glass. Lots of people wind their scopes up too far as well. I suspect most on here will know this stuff but maybe some newbies can get something from it?? It's always the simple little things that make a BIG difference - a big difference in getting a reticle on the 400 elk that Aaron found for you - before he dissappears over the ridge! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Aaron, Some African hunters have several principles that have been drilled into us on this forum; A. DON'T PISSOFF THE PH BY WOUNDING AN ANIMAL & HAVING TO TRACK IT FOR SEVERAL HOURS. B. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE OF YOUR SHOT - DON'T TAKE IT. C. YOU SHOOT IT, YOU BOUGHT IT. These principles are no excuse for slow reaction time but you must remember the hunter is making these decisions before pulling the trigger (exclusive of life threatening situations). As for seeing & identifying game, have any of your clients ever spotted the animal before you did? Chances are you didn't immediately see it after the hunter told youwhere it was. It's kind of tough to pinpoint an animal in the bush with the description - "see it right there about 140 yards out, just to the left of the big bush". Maybe, if the hunters' time permits, you & the hunter could spend some quality time in the bush just spotting animals - that way both parties have a better understanding of each other capabilities. Lastly, I haven't seen a PH or Tracker that didn't have the eyesight of an eagle - not everyone has that capability. | |||
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I think this is a common misconception .... on average PH/guides wouldnt have any better eyesight than the next person - they just spend an aweful lot of time looking at the bush and identifying animals. It is just practice and time in the bush! You see this on a long hunt with a client who is actually trying to find/see animals. The first few days they cant pick out ANYTHING but after a week they are seeing a lot more animals and learning the little things that the PH/guide is looking for (backlines, legs, body markings, ears, etc) to locate game in the bush. After a couple weeks they may be spotting game at will like a pro!! IMO - It's just practice and training... Hell, I am short-sighted and wear glasses and clients say "how the hell did you see that??" ... its not my great eyesight - you just gotta know what you're looking for!!That being said - I am sure there are some PHs with incredible eyesight. Personally I am not too proud to have clients spot game before I do either. I know it really annoys some guides as the seem to take it as a failing on their part (or something??? I could never understand that) - hunting to me is a team deal and I reckon the more 'eagle' eyes the better AND its meant to be fun!!! To me there is nothing (much) worse than the client who sits blankly looking at the two wheel tracks in front of the vehicle - waiting for someone to find something for them to kill.... just being honest here. If I have a client who happens to spot the animal that he kills - I sure let them know that is a special bonus and that I am really proud and happy for them!! and I am!! BTW - we dont have much in the way of local trackers here (willing to participate/work anyway) - so every eye really does help!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Boltshooter - Yes, there are certainly exceptions to all of the examples I listed above. I am talking an overall average of clients, something like 70-80% of the time, one or all of the factors I talked about become an issue. | |||
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it is easy to get really fowled up due to the excitement when on a new and different hunt. Most of us who hunt a great deal get pretty nonchalant about things at our own hunting camp where we hunt all the time. Put me in Africa where I have had to save and wait plan, etc for a long time, the excitement builds up. Dang straight it get my hear pumping into overdrive, that is why it is so dang much fun over there. That doesn't mean I am going to shoot terrible,, but the chances are much greatter there than at home. I remember a bird hunt in Argentina. I shot skeet for months to get ready for the shoot,,, I thought I was a red hot. First time in the field, I have never seen so dang many birds in my life. I think I shot a box of shells before I knocked a feather off anything. I sat down, put the gun down, relaxed and calmed down,, then got back up and blasted the heck out of them.That is dove hunting,, you better be ready when that buff is there,, they won't let you sit down and regroup and get things pulled together. We walk into groups of feeral pigs here and see how many we can get before they get away, pretty good practice. Until you have experiences like the Judge did and have an animal on you and have to save your own bacon,,,,none of us know for sure until we prove our own meddle.. you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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Aaron and Matt, Man I totally agree with you, I was hunting on a safari with a guy, and he would stalk in close to the animal, the ph would throw up the sticks, so THEN he would put a bullet into his gun... he did this a few times, thought the Ph was going to kill him. He also would have his scope dialed into 16 power and couldn't find sh*t....as professionals you know there are certain animals, that you just have to shoot and you might only get one chance per safari... well everytime that animals came up this guy blew it!!! Then on my last trip, with a dear friend of mine, every time the Ph would say "there he is, 2 from the left..." my friend would take forever...and it cost him an huge Eland, he would always be like, OK, is it this one, or that one.... he wasn't very quick on the shot...which I think is 100% necessary to get those lucky monsters that show up out of the blue. I don't claim to be an expert, however, there were times on the last safari, when my ph just said right there, shoot, and I didn't even look at the horns or anything, just threw up the rifle found the shoulder and BAM! Now, some people might comment, well thats very irresponsible, however, I trust my ph, and he knows if it's a trophy whatever, I'm going to be thrilled! | |||
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Regardless of how many safaris most of us go on we'll never have the "eye" for spotting game that the PH or trackers do. I find that to be more of a problem for me than anything else. It's also something you can't practice for. This is where a really good PH excels. He controls his own excitement and calmly directs the client to the game. If the client does not pick up on the PHs anxiety he will shoot better also. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Matt and Mark have it . A good P.H. because of his experience has learned to see into cover and pick what is sticking away. Most folk only see the outside of the shrubbery and cannot see into it. Then there are some folk who no matter how you direct them to the animal cannot see it. The best indication is when you get an extended "yeeeesssss" then you know that the client has missed the picture. SUSTAINABLY HUNTING THE BLUE PLANET! "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable and to give an appearence of solidity to pure wind." Dr J A du Plessis | |||
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I think that's true most of the time but just occasionally one comes across the exception to the rule. Some years ago, I hunted with a 60 something couple from Somerset England who until their safari had never been outside the UK in thir lives. The wife had the best bush eyes I've ever seen and would regularly spot game before the trackers or I did. Natural bush eyes in westerners is very rare indeed but it does occasionally happen. | |||
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shakari,, have you noticed that kids seem to pick out the animals better than their parents? I see it all the time here in the states. I think like you have mentioned,, the Ph or you have learned to look "in" the brush,, not "at" the brush. I know my son has the same vision I do,, but he had no preconcieved ideas of what to look for so he almost always spots animals before I do, he looks "into" the brush. What do they say,, can't see the forrest for the trees? I always practice "looking" when I hunt,, I look for an ear,, a flick of a tail,, not just looking for an entire animal,, that is what gets most of us and it takes practice, you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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But its not any more rare than SA PH's who can walk further than 20 minutes from the vehicle without taking a knee, or lighting up a smoke!! But it does occasionally happen. | |||
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The key is certainly to look into the bush (rather than at it) and for a change in the pattern or for movement etc rather than for a whole animal..... at least it is for me. | |||
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Steve - I was really hoping to get ya with my last one, but guess not. Damn!!! | |||
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Aaron, You gotta do better than that to get me to bite....... and you also gotta consider the time difference before posting your admission!  | |||
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Aaron, most SA PH's only walk for about twenty minutes before having to pull some sort of a time waster. It is in order to give the puffing billy following behind a bit of a break. A good PH can tell when the break is needed by the increasing noise following. Stones being kicked, dead wood being stomped on, the "rip" sound of clothing going through shrubbery and my all time favourite, the agonised scream of a client who just left some of his skin and flesh on an Euphorbia bothae.   SUSTAINABLY HUNTING THE BLUE PLANET! "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable and to give an appearence of solidity to pure wind." Dr J A du Plessis | |||
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Ya, ya, ya, I'm hearing it, but not buying it!! Other than Mike Murray, the SA PH's I've hunted with are always the ones suckin wind, and wanting us to slow down, so they can keep up! But its your story, tell it how you will.  | |||
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I know a few natural good shots. Two of them are absolute marksmen. I have seen my godfather shoot between the eyes of a spike buck. Give him 15 shells and he will return with 15 dove, hes a true meat hunter. I have seen a friend shoot a deer running in the neck from over 200 yards. All that could be seen was the neck as it was jumping in and out of the beans running from hounds. He shot, and didnt see the neck pop up again. Rode up there and a doe was laying in the beans. I have also seen that same friend shoot deer out past 500 yards and not a nar one was standing still. Im trying to improve my shooting to become a marksmen such as them. I am trying to lower my resting heartrate by cardio to improve accuracy. I am also trying to build confidence in my gun. That appears to be the biggest thing good shots have, is confidence in the gun they shoot. That confidence seems to come from practice or lots of harvests. | |||
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