I just got back from hunting elephant, cape buffalo and lion (all free ranging out of Kruger onto the Balule Reserve) in South Africa. I took a nice bull elephant with my .375 H&H, but was not satisfied with its knockdown power. What would you all recommend in a .40 Caliber bolt action for the next elephant hunt?

Shooting elephant one thinks is my rifle enough...I shoot a 458 Lott and used it on a bull ele at 30feet...
I am going to the Selous in 06 and will be carrying a classic double loaned to me for the year to get to know and get used too... A
450#2 N.E.
Like Will says, "once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as enough gun...

Mike

Use enough gun,

Where did you hit it with the 375?

465H&H

Gentlemen

Aagard formula is; "stopping power comes from placing a suitable bullet in the right spot, but the bigger bullet you can place there the better. no one has yet improved on the old axinom; Use the biggest gun you can handle well" Big Bore Rifles, page 11, year ?

Get whatever floats your boat. For some it's a 404 Jeffery, 416 Rigby, 416 Wby, 416 Rem, 458 Win, 458 Lott, 450 rigby rimless, 450 dakota, 460 Wby, 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs. Others seems to agree with Sir Samuel White Baker and wants a "Child of a Cannon"

I use the 404 Jefferys, 416 Remington, and .470 N.E. in a double rifle..One is about as good as the other for the classic brain shot, but for shoulder shots the bigger calibers are probably better, but only if recoil isn't a problem...

In answering 465's inquiry my shot was directly in the left front shoulder, which should have penetrated into the heart and lungs with a 300 grain trophy bonded sledgehammer solid. The elephant was in a herd of 80 elephants, from two weeks old up to the big boy that I shot. We could not get close enough to shoot him in the side of the head with a brain shot from my .470 NE Double Rifle and had to settle for the .375 shot. Nevertheless we eventually got him, but not after a long track in heavy bush, with elephants everywhere. For any of you who has hunted elephant, my brief description is enough to aptly describe the dangerous situation we found ourselves in, and the reasons why I want to take a heavier bolt action rifle for the next elephant hunt.

If I was going to hunt elephants with a 40 cal bolt rifle I would get a Blaser R 93 Safari in 416 Rem Mag.
I have had a 416 Weatherby, and a 416 Rem Mag in a custom rifle. The WBY is just too much of a good thing.
As long as you have a good 40 cal 400gr. solid going at least 2100fps it will get the job done.

How far away was your shot?

I don't think you need a bigger boltgun with your 470NE along. But, if it's what you really want is another boltgun, then that's excuse enough for me. Go with a 416 or 458 Lott.

If you use the hot loadings for the .404 then it, the .416 Rem and the .416 Rigby are a set of triplets. The extra velocity from the Wby is useless as it doesn't add to the penetration just the recoil. So, if you are looking for a factory rifle to tune up (and all factory rifles must be tuned up for DG) then either an M70 in Rem or a CZ or a Ruger in Rigby or a CZ in .404 are all just great. If you are going custom, hey, whatever you want.

If I wanted a 40 cal in a bolt rifle, I'd simply buy a CZ550chambered for the 404, make sure everything worked properly, and go hunting! I'd far rather have a good double rifle chambered for 450/400NE 3", or 500/416NE, however! Better yet,for elephant, would be my 470NE, or a 500NE double rifle!

I took one with 375,one with 470NE, and one with 416Rigby. Would not use 375 again. Found the 416/470 about equal but would use the 470 if I ever get another chance. It's a double and very comfortable to shoot.

I can't answer your question as I've only killed one elephant. Side brain shot with my .470NE double. That bullet exited and was not recovered. 500gr Barnes solid.

So from my limited expereince with elephants I can tell you this. My PH had used a .416 Rigby for back up and PAC culling for years and reported that he had no problems with this round and found it quite suitable for elephant.

For what it's worth..

Good luck and happy hunting.

The best bolt action .40 caliber cartridges for elephant are:

404 Jeffery
416 Rigby.

A somewhat less preferable .40, although much more common since it is available in inexpensive rifles, is the

416 Remington.

I have hunted elephant, but never killed one.

While hunting them, I have carried a .375 H&H Mag. and felt undergunned, and a .458 Lott and felt that I had enough.

I think a .416 is enough, but I will be taking a .500 A-Square this year, because I want more than enough.

MR, I cannot agree with you more...When you are in the jess and eles are out in front of you...You want more then enough gun...I am speaking from personal experience...I saw a bull in front of us at 20 feet before Ph saw it...Let me correct that statement...I was looking to the right front and Ph to the left front and Guess what I picked out...

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I will be taking a .500 A-Square this year, because I want more than enough.

Next step - faster 2nd shot, which means an SxS rifle in .500 NE or .577 NE.

Use Enough Gun

Why bother with the 40's. You could go to the 458 Win. Mag. and have a real thumper for big stuff. I realize that being an advocate of the 458 WM is heresy here on AR but the damn thing just works and it can be had in almost any off the shelf rifle. A lot of the AR crew will tell you the 458 Lott is a bunch better. Well pick up a copy of the recent RIFLE magazine and see what old Phil Shoemaker has to say. It would seem that he really sees no practical difference.

Regards,

Mark

500 Grains,

What rifle will you carry on your upcoming elephant hunt?

I'm scheduled to go back to Zim (Chewore North) in July 2006 for buffalo and I'm trying to decide between taking my .458 WM paired with a 375H&H (both Pre-64 M70 Supergrades). Or, taking a 404 Jeffery paired with a 9.3x62, both being built right now on 1909 Argentine DWM actions.

When I was there last year, I hunted with my 416 Rigby (Ruger M77) until I had shot my buffalo (day 3) and Eland (day 2). After I shot the buffalo, I started carrying my 300H&H because we would only be hunting plainsgame. Well, we had a pretty close encounter with a bull elephant that we bumped into in the bush. The PH and I both had our rifles up and pointed at the ele's head as we walked backward very quickly. Even though the 300H&H was loaded with 220 grain Nosler Partitions, it felt like I was holding a pellet gun. In reality, I never felt worried because the PH was there with his 458 WM and would have dropped the ele if things got any closer.

Anyway, I was just curious as to what rifle you will be carrying. From now on, I will only take a light rifle that can handle the biggest game in the area that I will be hunting (i.e. 9.3x62 or 375H&H).

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
500 Grains,

What rifle will you carry on your upcoming elephant hunt?

I will carry a Searcy .500 NE. My other rifle for the trip is a Husqvarna 9.3 x 62 with Kahles 1.5-6 in quick detachable mounts. One of the trackers will carry my 9.3 when I am carrying my double. For PG, the 9.3 will be available, including for chance encounters when we are after an ele. After I finish my ele, a tracker will carry my double and I will carry my 9.3.

Is there an extra tracker available to carry my spare gun? Sure. The guy who normally carries the shooting sticks will have his hands free since I am not a shooting sticks kind of guy.

quote:

Or, taking a 404 Jeffery paired with a 9.3x62, both being built right now on 1909 Argentine DWM actions.

That would be my choice, as long as all the bugs are worked out before the safari. Nothing wrong with a .458 & .375 combo, but these custom rifles will be very classy and will look great in trophy pics.

Hello 500grains,
I do like your choice in big game rifles and also use a similar set in places like the Zambezi.
One a Merkel 470,the other a 9.3x62 Blaser {I'm in the process of seting up a classic Husky FN in 9.3x62 with a steel Shmidt&Bender scope on Recknagel low detach mounts.}, but couldn't imagine taking a ele with a bolt gun if you ALREADY own a double.
But then a 404 would be nice.
Cheers Adam.

Shumba,
"When in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle" --- Terry Wieland (italics added)

500 Grains,

I like your set up as well. I think I'm leaning towards the 404 and 9.3 combo, provided they will be finished by then.

Right now I am planning on using 400 grain Woodliegh solids and either the 400 grain Woodliegh of Swift A-Frames for softs. What velocity do you think would be most effective? I was hoping to get a load dialed in at 2,250 +/-.

Tim

If shoulder shooting Elepnant was my penchant, and it is a good shot to take, and your less likely to lose the elephant and trophy fee, then, if I could handle the recoil, I would opt for a 458 Lott. since you also shoot a double then the 458 Lott should be right up your alley...It litteraly caves an elephant in with a shoulder shot and they make few tracks..Neither the 40 calibers or the 458 Win does this and I have seen this more than once, they just almost cave in and almost go to the ground, but upright themselves and make a mad dash for less than 100 yards if the legs are working. Its impressive.

Shamba,
Try the northfork or GS Customs flat nose solids, it does make a difference IMO..Also the wonderful cup point as opposed to a soft..If they will feed in your rifle....They both feed well in my rifles but my guns have been tweeked to handle them...

Shumba,

I think 2250 fps is a perfect velocity. 2400 fps is fine, but it increases the chance of bullet failure. On Woodleighs, I have seen squished bases (even though they have a steel liner), and on monolithics I have seen deformed noses - some mildly deformed and some more heavily deformed. At 2250 fps you should not have a problem with either.

As for solids, I agree with Ray. If flat nosed solids will feed in your rifle, they do penetrate deeper. GS Custom is off line right now while they finish refitting their factory with new CNC bullet making machines. North Fork is offering both flat nose solids and cup nose solids for the .404 Jeff (and other calibers). http://www.northforkbullets.com North fork also offers a solid shank bonded lead core driving band soft that is fabulous.

However, if you prefer Woodleigh, I am sure they will do the job for you. As for softs, I am a bit skeptical about Woodleigh at anything greater than the old nitro express velocities. Using a 500 grain Woodleigh soft in a 470 capstick with a quartering on shot at a kudu, the bullet did not even exit! The reason was that the bullet overexpanded. George S who posts here had a Woodleigh soft come apart on a buffalo. So personally I would go with the Swift A-Frame over the Woodleigh soft, or better yet, the North Fork bonded core or cup nose bullet for a soft. The same combination is available in 9.3 caliber.

About the 9.3, I have found Lapua brass to be higher quality and more consistent than Norma.

Gentlemen

Wasn't Woodleigh bullets in 404, 416 modified to hold up better for higher velocity ? I read about it in Magnum Man. Woodleigh lists 1900-2400 Rec. Impact Velocity (fps) for both calibers.

Cheers
/JOHAN

Use Enough Gun,
I used a .416 Rigby on my 2 elephant but agree with others that there isn't a nickles worth of difference between the .416's Rigby and Remington and the .404 Jeffrey when shooting quality solids at 2300 to 2400 FPS. I also agree that the .458 Lott is better still!

BTW, I hunted the Balule Reserve in 2002 and found it to be great game country with buff, elephant and lion moving in and out of the Park...who did you hunt with?

500 Grains,
When you hunt with Buzz there will be several trackers to carry your rifles for you! In fact, you may hurt ol' Crispin's feelings if he doesn't get to haul one of them.

500 grains,
Its OK to use a 404 or a 416 rigby if you cant afford a 416 remmington.

Use Enough Gun,

How about some pictures, especially if you have them of the autopsy & recovered bullets.

Especially the stories, can't get enough good hunting stories.

Thanks

Minkman

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Hello 500grains,
I do like your choice in big game rifles and also use a similar set in places like the Zambezi.
One a Merkel 470,the other a 9.3x62 Blaser {I'm in the process of seting up a classic Husky FN in 9.3x62 with a steel Shmidt&Bender scope on Recknagel low detach mounts.}, but couldn't imagine taking a ele with a bolt gun if you ALREADY own a double.
But then a 404 would be nice.
Cheers Adam.

Adam,

A classy .404 would make a great plains game gun even if it never got to go elephant hunting because the double always has dibs! Right now in my house I have 10 bolt action dangerous game rifles, and 1 double rifle. But the double is going to do all the dangerous game shooting.

What about the 10,75x68Mauser? Is it powerful enough? Is a bit shorter than the .404 and actually fits a standard lenght M98 action with no hazzle..
The reputation it got wasn`t the best, but that`s most likely because of bad bullets in earlier days..

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:
Gentlemen

Wasn't Woodleigh bullets in 404, 416 modified to hold up better for higher velocity ? I read about it in Magnum Man. Woodleigh lists 1900-2400 Rec. Impact Velocity (fps) for both calibers.

Cheers
/JOHAN

JOHAN,

I know that Woodleigh now offers a "Mk. II" version of their 410 grain .416" soft nosed bullet.

The Mk. II bullet has a much thicker jacket than the previous version and is shown in section on Woodleigh's website.

I don't know if they've done the same with the .423" bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I will be taking a .500 A-Square this year, because I want more than enough.

Next step - faster 2nd shot, which means an SxS rifle in .500 NE or .577 NE.

I must agree. I would like to own a .500 NE double rifle, although the .577 is probably too much of a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

JOHAN,
I know that Woodleigh now offers a "Mk. II" version of their 410 grain .416" soft nosed bullet.

The Mk. II bullet has a much thicker jacket than the previous version and is shown in section on Woodleigh's website.

I don't know if they've done the same with the .423" bullet.

mrlexma
I contacted Woodleigh, they have upraded both 404 and 416 to Mk II with thicker jackets. Gregor Woods article in Man Magnum, October 2001 about 404 shows a picture of the the old and new bullet, see page 70-73

Cheers
/JOHAN

Darn you 500 Grains, now you have me contemplating upgrading my hunt from buff/PG to tuskless cow/buff/PG. I am also thinking that I should try one of those PAC elephant hunts someday. It is kind of a shame to have a 404 Jeffery and 458 WM and never shoot an elephant with them.

Tim

Tim,

I have heard that Big5 often does not sell out of cow ele (or at least they do not all get shot) due to the hilly terrain. If true, you could wait until you are there and decide at that time.

500gns,
Yes, after some time spent at close quarters with ele, in particular family groups in Jess one feels just a little safer with two 500grn solids ready and primed.
I to believe LAPUA brass to be great wich i use with my 7x64 but use RWS for the 9.3 and NORMA for the 470NE.
Anders,
The 10,75x68 has a good reputation here in Australia with some of our PH'S and hunters.
I would have no worries hunting DG with this caliber with WOODLEIGHS.
Cheers Adam.

The only downside to the 10,75x68 is velocity I guess. It pushes a 347 or 400 grain .423 bullet, but a bit slow maybe... Shouldn`t affect the penetration that much, or..???

Anders

You need a 404 Jeffery

I have the article from Hatari Times about 10,75X68. If you want it, send me a pm with your email address.

Cheers
/JOHAN

Harold Wolf hunted with a 10.75x68 on Aussie buffalo and was happy with it.

It used good Woodleigh bullets.