The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Are you less of a hunter?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Are you less of a hunter? | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Yes Socrates, it�s called wisdom which is derived from experience. I would rather read the facts about someone's failed squirrel hunt, than to see you drone on about something you have never experienced. It's great that you may have memorized some facts, however, until you actually gain some much needed practical experience, you�re opinions have little substance. When you can walk the walk rather than run your mouth, you let us know. Remember - Big wind come from little cave... | |||
|
one of us |
quote:Ray, Didn't Peter Capstick go after a buffalo with a spear? Seems like I read an article in one of the magazines years ago that he did. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Personally, I would think that the things that make a "real hunter" would be such things has how quietly he can move throught the bush, without scaring away the animal, placing his feet in the right place without breaking twigs and crunching leaves, having the physical stamina to follow a track all day long throught a hot sun, and biting insects, and a steady hand on the rifle before pulling the trigger. If you can do this, it matters little if the load groups at 1" or 3". Hit a target the size of a paper plate at 100 yds you can take most any big game animal. And a bit of ethics should be thrown in as well, anyone who blasts away at anything that moves, no matter what the trophy quality, is not sure of his target, and disobeys the game laws, and has no respect for the animal, is he a "real hunter"? I think reloading your own ammo is a bit of icing on the cake, but that is all. | |||
|
| one of us |
Terry said: quote:I agree with the above, Terry. I do think someone that is well versed in firearms, and has reloaded and optimized their load and rifle, are a better hunter because they are more likely to hit the target when the time comes. However, there is a distinct difference between bench shooting, optimizing a rifle, and an off hand shot at a game animal. Take a look at one of Saeed's shots with a 375 H&H. I think it's a Dukier, running away from him, at an angle, and he drops it. Amazing shot. That kind of shooting doesn't come from bench rest practice, but, at that range, for that shot, most hunters rifle setups, cartridge and ammunition, would have been incapable of making the shot. Rifle wouldn't be accurate enough, at that range. Not to mention that without Saeed's intrest in firearms and reloading, and trap shooting, the person behind the firearm wouldn't have been able to make the shot. So yes, being a guncrank and a reloader CAN make you a better hunter, because you are a better shot. The other reason for people using cast bullets to shoot with is they are cheaper, and, when you are shooting enough to get really good with your rifle, unless you are rich, it becomes rather expensive, in particular with above 375 rifles. Finally, I believe John Linebaugh and Seyfried, and Elmer Keith, all had it right. LBT, or Keith style slugs, big, heavy flat metplat slugs, have worked for them for many years, and they are suitable for beardefense, etc. I can't think of a better combination for a 5 gun backup gun then a Linebaugh 475 440 grain bullet at 1325 fps, or, even my lil girl with 345 grain slugs, at 1550 fps. s | |||
|
| one of us |
So often the topics on "hunting" forums concern "shooting." Seem to be more about the hardware than the pursuit. | |||
|
| one of us |
quote:I dont think being a reloader CAN make you a better shot. In fact I dont think reloading has anything to do with someones shooting ability. I can think of dozens of better "back up"(what ever that means) guns than a 45LC 5 shot, or a 475LB, and they all start and end with a rifle. | |||
|
| one of us |
Bob said: quote:Bob, as Saeed has pointed out, he only hunts a few days, but, he can hold his interest by playing with rifles, cartridges, etc. You do have a good point: Not many threads here are discussing actual hunting techniques, or experiences. Even though this is www.accuratereloading.com , and has been pointed out, it's the African Hunting Forum, I don't see many threads describing hunting, hunts, etc. Certainly the methods of hunting, at least in Africa, are dictated by your professional hunter. I suppose a discussion of different hunter's styles would be a great topic for a new thread... s | |||
|
| one of us |
quote:smallfry, Reloading has helped me become a better shot. I started loading when I was in college when I could load 100 for about what 40 factory round would cost. It gave me more shooting for my money. To me more shooting = better shooting. But I do not believe more shooting makes me a better hunter. All it does is make me a better shot. | |||
|
| one of us |
I see what you mean wyojoe, though I look somethings a little different I guess... I see it that you became a better marksman because you shot more rounds, regardless of how they were obtained. | |||
|
one of us |
If you don't reload your less of hunter? Where does this logic end? How about if you didn't built the rifle your not as good a man as the gunsmith? But, he didn't smelt the metal for the barrel so is he less a hunter than the the man at the foundery Who didn't dig the ore. IMHO people who compete in hunting are missing the whole point. | |||
|
| one of us |
Well wonders never cease to amaze me...reloading has nothing to do with "hunting" it's just a step taken to provide some satisfaction and in some cases ease in acquiring the proper load. John | |||
|
| one of us |
Can't hit that elk at 300 yards, or that Dukier at 275 like Saeed? Guess you aren't as much of a hunter... s | |||
|
| One of Us |
Socrates - The moment that you get your head out of Saeed�s asshole, you might hear what everyone has been attempting to tell you - Your assumption is incorrect and your defense of your assumption is quite ridiculous. However, it does have a high entertainment value so please by all means continue to drone on. I for one cannot wait to see where your logic will take us next. This is yet another one of your magical mystery tours. I guess you will start comparing PH hunting practices next... ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
|
one of us |
quote: ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} A real hunter doesn't need to shoot at 300 yds! If you can't get closer to an animal than 300 yds, you are not a hunter, no matter where you get your ammo! | |||
|
| one of us |
I don't hunt, but I do reload a few rifle cartridges, and I have opinions on almost everything. Is this where I'm supposed to post? | |||
|
| one of us |
I don't know is this will add or detract from this thread, but I long ago realized that there were hunters and shooters. Hunters, hunt and that is their sole purpose. Their equipment may not be pretty, they may or may not reload. They are totally dedicated to their mission, ie: to hunt. Shooters on the other hand, relish in their equiment, are constantly experimenting, trying new rifles, new loads, new bullets. Hunting is one of the things you do with the objects of your experiments. One group is not better than the other. One has a rifle (or bow, pistol, spear et al) in order to hunt. The other hunts because he or she has a rifle (or bow, pistol, spear et al). I'm a shooter who hunts, and proud of it. My son is a dedicated hunter, who shoots. I'm proud of him. Together we make a team. I worry about loads, powder, optics, and other fine details. He takes what I give him, tests it, determines whether it will suffice, then becomes proficent with it, and kills lots of game. Can someone be both? Yes, of course. But to become really excellent at something usually requires extreme dedication. And most of us mortal humans, lack the time , dedication, resources, fortitude, and native skill to become more than just better than average, at a great number of hobbies. So we tend to specize. Becoming an excellent hunter that shoots or a excellent shooter that hunts. Both are found in these forums, and both have much to add to one another. Regards, Bob | |||
|
| one of us |
ROFL!!! quote:ROFL!!! Saeed: Guess you just made the cut, hitting that Dukier at 275 yards. Aren't there areas, like Alaska, where if you are hunting mountain sheep, elk, etc. the ground is wide open, with no cover, and you are lucky to get to 300 yards for a shot? Bob: I agree with your post. I guess at a certain point someone may have to admit that there are people that are both superb, world class shooters, and great hunters, because that's their profession, or they have the time and money to constantly practice. While there are exceptions to the rule, I think the majority of guys who reload are better shooters, and therefore better at taking game. In other words, when they have the shot, they kill what they are shooting at. My experience has been that guys that reload have more accurate equipment, sometimes more time, and are more involved in the entire hunt/shooter business. When you spend 8-10 hours a day working out a load for a commercial product, you tend to become a damn good shot. That I know from personal experience. As you said, didn't make me a hunter, just someone who, if the shot presented itself, or the deer, could make the shot. I think part of this is an age thing. When I was reloading and shooting all the time, I had to reload becuase of the incredible amount of ammo we burned, and, our reloads where far more accurate, and cheaper, then anything we could buy at the time. Last, the rifles, match grade, custom built M1A's, and AR-15's, where SO accurate that not to reload for them was a crime. I guess these days the options are more, but back then, you had no options. Example: I bought a Charter Arms Bulldog. 44 special. Nice little gun. Only ammo around was remmingtons. It REALLY sucked. giant flash, lots of unburnt powder, NO accuracy. At 7 yards I was lucky to hit a man sized target. Went home, loaded 9 grains of unique under 240 grain jacketed hollow points. Less flash, all shots on the head or heart of target. It was truly amazing. To add insult to injury, Remmington made you pay through the nose for that crap... Down side is I shot the gun loose with that load in 3 months.... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} s | |||
|
| one of us |
I have shot a lot of game at 300 yards and many much, much further than that, and I have crawled on my belly for a mile and shot at 20 to 40 yards...I'm a hunter, a reloader, a rabid bullet experimentor, a target shooter, a handgun hunter and shooter, a gunsmith of sorts and a darn good stockmaker, a varmint hunter,bow hunter, and a fair shot with a sling shot... My point is I don't seperate the two..I could have been the best hunter in the world but on many ocassions, good shooting won out in the end. Many a hunt in Idaho backcountry was successful only because of a good shot on the only elk seen....On the other hand good tracking hunting skills played a hand in success and got me on the game close with plenty of time to shoot and sometimes for a snap shot going south. It all goes together. | |||
|
| one of us |
Ray: It's funny when you live, breath, and eat reloading and shooting, throw in a little casting, a free range, with no one on it, mountains you can go stalking in, a whole bunch of other stuff I shouldn't really talk about...how much better your skills are. I have a ton of respect for guys that have done that, since I did it for about 5 years, and I KNOW the difference in my skills then, and my once a week, maybe, at the range now. We had our own, nearly private shooting range, up in the Santa Cruz mountains. Any time you wanted to shoot, go right ahead. No locks, no no trespassing signs, etc. Plus, we had a long range, up near Lockheed, for rifle. 300 yard gong, and further, if you wanted to place iron chickens. I also had a friend that spent his life taking pictures of either burning det cord, or the effects of cannon, and armor piercing shells on armor, with the world's fastest camera. He was a fantastic gunsmith, thanks in part to the service, and, he built, and taught me about firearms, from full auto M-14's to Mac 10's, and how to shoot. I also had a whole bunch of other friends that did things like BRI, 500 grain 45 caliber slugs, sold to Winchester, etc. that I helped, and worked with. And, I worked for an ex-green beret. I know what my skills where, and I miss those times. I have tremendous respect for guys like Saeed, Ray, etc. that are real gun cranks, and really know their stuff. John Linebaugh, Ross Seyfried, Paco Kelly, John Taffin, all have been helpful, oh, and I forgot Lee Jurras. I have no illusion that total immersion in shooting, from reloading, to combat shooting, long range bench work, etc. all work together to make you a superior hunter/shooter. I just really despise people that would deny the level of involvement that makes you that good. If you have a kid that is intrested in casting bullets, encourage him. The deeper the involvement, the better he will be in the martial art of shooting/hunting. s | |||
|
| one of us |
Ray: What's your handicap? s | |||
|
| one of us |
quote:Just one explanation of the above quote, and I'll let this string slide, because it is going nowhere! What I meant by the above answer was, That makeing a shot at 300 yds, or farther is not indicative of being a good hunter, but being a good shot. Certainly there times when a fair rifleman will simply stumble onto a good animal, and hunter or not one can't get closer, we've all been there. Accross a canyon that would take a day to cercumvent, but is only 300 yds across, there is nothing wrong with makeing these shots if you are up to it. Lets'not, however, confuse the fact that because you can make that shot, automatically makes you a hunter, or even a better hunter. Hunting is the finding of the game you want to collect, regardless of method. I would say that most guys who spend hours, and hours on end, on the fireing range are generally not very effecient HUNTERS, but are most times very good shooters,if they know the exact range, and the reverse, most VERY EFFECIENT HUNTERS, mostly use only two or three rifles for all their hunting, and are seldom seen on a fireing range, for anything more the checking zero of the hunting rifle before a hunt, and are generally better judges of range in the field! If the range is long, he, unless hendered by the abiss of a canyon, will get closer if he can! Like Ray I handload, and am good at that, I hunt, and I'm very good at that, I shoot, and have few misses, at whatever range I attempt a shot. And all these things together make me what I am as a sportsman, but I was a good hunter, by the time I was 6 years old, and after another 60 years I'm a better hunter, but that hunting skill came from being in the bush with the animals I hunt, not on a fireing range. To be a very good hunter,means you have the begin to think like the animal you are hunting, and that, my friends, will never be learned on a fireing range, or in a loading room! Now! I bid you good day! ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} [ 05-15-2003, 22:38: Message edited by: MacD37 ] | |||
|
| one of us |
Mac said: quote:I see. So if we are out in open country, with no cover, and the closest you can get is 700 yards, and Boyd pulls out a 378/30 and makes the shot at 700 yards, even though no hunter in the world could get closer, or have done better, that means Boyd can't hunt, and is only a good shooter???? Who's to say any hunter in the world can get any closer then Saeed did to that little Dukier? You choose the condition of the hunt. What if you decide to daylight stalk a leopard? The only glimpse, or shot you might have is a long range snap shot. Is this any less hunting then setting up a blind, and waiting for the leopard to go to the bait? The ideal way to separate shooting from hunting is to use another tool. Knife, spear, those are tools for pure hunters. No shooting skills required there. s | |||
|
| Moderator |
Daylight stalking of leopards would never result in a long range snap shot, and no ethical hunter would attempt such a shot to begin with. You don't take long range snap shots at unwounded dangerous game! 700yd shots on antelope, deer or elk are not hunting shots, they're target pure and simple. Anyone who attempts to make them seem proper, justified or ethical is no hunter. He's just a shooter and there is a world of difference. That seems to be the problem with your line of thought Socrates. Since you seem to have no hunting experience you cannot grasp the essence of what it is to hunt and harvest game in a proper and sporting fashion. Where is the thrill of the hunt? If all one is offered is a 700yd shot at a big deer, then let the deer live to be hunted another day! Same goes for that snap shot at a buffalo or leopard at long range, let him live to be hunted another day so that YOU or your PH might live to hunt another day. Burning up thousands of rounds at a range can make someone a good shot but doesn't teach them a damn thing about hunting or the ethics involved in the sport. To hunt isn't just to kill, and anyone who rates their hunting time afield by how large the bag isn't much of a hunter. | |||
|
| one of us |
quote:Socrates, you're impossible! ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} Your above statement absolutely tells the tale on you! In the forst place no respectable person would shoot at a live animal at 700 yds. Even with the 30/378, you list, if loaded to the top in speed, the shooter squeeses the trigger, and the animal takes a step at the same time, now you have a gut shot animal, that at a distance of 700 yds may not even show any sign of being hit, and simply walk away, out of sight. I submit there isn't one in a hundred "SHOOTERS", who would do such a thing, that will go to the spot where the animal was standing, to see if there is a drop of blood, but simply say "DAMN, I MISSED!" I would say 99% of those who talk about 700 yd shooting, couldn't hit a 55 gallon drum, much less place his shots in a perticular spot on that drum, at 700 yds, in the field. I simply believe we owe the game we hunt more than a gut shot, and no follow up! In other words if you can't get closer than 700 yds, DONT SHOOT ! bye! [ 05-16-2003, 20:28: Message edited by: MacD37 ] | |||
|
| one of us |
If I wasn't impossible, I wouldn't be Socratic quote:I got one thing to say: Boyd Heaton http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=001091 quote:Looks like for Boyd, 700 yards in point blank range... I know, he's not a hunter because he uses matchkings... ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} gs | |||
|
| one of us |
If I wasn't impossible, I wouldn't be Socratic quote:Much like the sophists in ancient Athens, you all make shit up as you go, and don't like facing the fact that what you consider ethical, is not shared by many of your peers. Ethical, or moral approaches require a consensus, a group that agrees on what the standards are. You guys don't have that. You make your ethics up as you go along, and hide behind sophistic arguments, ad hom attacks, when faced with a situation that doesn't fit your 'ethics'. In other words, it's like 'personal ethics'. No such animal exists. I remember the witch hunt that occured with Boyd Heaton, a master shooter, and, we don't know how good a hunter. What we do know is he could take, and make, shots most guys here can only dream of. Because of that talent, much like Socrates in Athens, he's pretty much crucified by the attack of the 'democratic mob', and his skills go unrecognized, and unknown. Same thing with the Browning 50 stopping rifle, the matchking thread, etc. You think something isn't 'ethical', or hunting, and the small group that agrees with you attempts, through anger, intimidation, and bull, to impress their opinion on the majority, or, to quiet anyone that disagrees with them. My morality may say hunting is getting within knife range, another may say bow range, another spear range, all far superior 'hunters' then anyone using a rifle. Mac says 300 yards. I stretch that to 700 yards, something Mac probably can't do, and it's 'unethical', and shooting not hunting. I'm just using Socratic questions to try and define this amorphous definition you have for 'hunting'. When I do that, I'm attacked, not my questions, or arguments. I think Ross Seyfried built a BMG based 30 caliber, or larger, long range rifle. He could hit a man size target at a mile. 700 yards would be a chip shot. Ross is a fantastic hunter, and using that rifle, for long range, open plain hunting is unethical, and not hunting? How about the guy that uses a BMG based rifle on prarie dogs, or feral cats? This whole argument reminds me of the argument for pornography, and the supreme court justice that said, "I know it when I see it." The kind of logic, or lack thereof, is the exact sort of stuff that allows the slippery slope of gun control to abridge and defeat our second amendment rights, and our free speech rights. "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." That means no federal laws against the right to bear arms. Period. Same with the First amendment. It doesn't mean the contrived bullshit congress has passed, and the Supreme Court enforced, limiting those rights. The literal interpretation of the meaning of the founding father's is why they wrote it so clearly, and plainly. They know the threat to freedom that occurs when a subjective approach is applied to something that is an absolute that the country is based on. Justice Hugo Black is perhaps the most famous for 'literal interpretation' of The Constitution. Scalia isn't far behind him. So, if you can now see the approach you are taking, and how it is sadly lacking, and, that you use the tools of the democrats in your arguments, perhaps think again before coming up with another ad hom, etc. that demeans a valid position. Sincerely, Socrates | |||
|
| One of Us |
Please god make the voices stop. This thread has gone from the ridiculous to the painful. | |||
|
| one of us |
Zd: Your position as a troll with nothing to say, is clearly established by reviewing your profile, and your last 50 posts.(members: take profile, click on persons profile, go to review last 50 posts, and see if I'm not correct.) If members review your last 50 posts, it's pretty clear you don't have much to say of any value. I strongly suggest that members here use the profile, and review last posts, to review a potential troll, or, real troll, as you are ZD. I actually put time and effort, and thought into my post here, trying to align ideas, and hone them through the dialectic process. You, on the otherhand, have very little to say, just trying to provoke others to support your position, which, actually is not a position, but an attempt to do nothing more then focus the democratic mob on other posters. The content of your last 50 post is non-existent, so, fuck off. s [ 05-16-2003, 08:59: Message edited by: Socrates ] | |||
|
| One of Us |
 Socrates - Is that the best you've got - calling me a troll?. YOU, Mallet, and Edmond are the only folks that I hammer and oddly enough for the same reason - You have no practical experience, no original thoughts, and simply regurgitate popular belief. What is even more pathetic is you don�t bother to validate your �assumptions�. You and I have had the exact same exchange ever since you began posting on this site. I called you out a long, long time ago. But unfortunately, you continue with your inane threads simply to have an existence (I suppose). What is interesting is you seem to get stuck on this cast bullet crap time and again. (We actually have a forum specifically for cast bullets you know) With each episode you make increasingly more ignorant suppositions. Your latest folly - You�re less of a hunter if you don�t reload makes the top 10 of the most ridiculous threads on AR. What is even more pathetic is you continually refer to Saeed�s accomplishments in support of your ridiculous positions. That somehow by crawling up his ass your posts suddenly have more validity and substance. Not speaking for Saeed, but I sure as hell would not want a klingon up my ass, it�s embarrassing for all of us. Socrates, IF you EVER have something to contribute, please do so. IF you EVER have any first hand EXPERIENCE, by all means please share it with us. Most folks come here to find and share information, but you apparently come here to build yourself up as a knowledgeable person. You're even arrogant enough to selected a screen name which suggests you think you know something. (In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.) Once more I beg you - Please stop with the mindless parroting of other�s work. Find an original thought in that melon of yours. If you stop with your drivel, I will stop harassing you - I promise!!!!!! Go live your own life with pride and dignity. | |||
|
| one of us |
AMEN! Zero Drift! | |||
|
| one of us |
About ZD: quote: | |||
|
| one of us |
It's really ironic. Socrates had a bunch of yapping detractors that followed him around, trying to harass him, in much the way you do to people here, ZD. Much like dogs yapping after a lion. The irony is I went through 50 of your posts, and NOTHING is there that implies YOU have any experience, or have done anything. All it documents is your a dick, a bully, and you like to harass people that post here. You pick a couple people, and post inane, stupid remarks, and add nothing to the forum, following those people around the forum like a yapping, impotent, adolescent dog. I ask questions, about things I don't know, and try and learn, and gain perspective, and knowledge. I have respect for Ray, Saeed, Boyd Heaton, etc. that actually do stuff, and discuss it. See they realize some people learn from others experience, and, they are lucky to have experienced things others have not.I use them on occassion, as examples, to show the falacies in your definitions, and the sophistry of your arguments. I have some experience in a couple areas, but they don't particularly apply here, in this forum, unless you consider hunting, using martial arts skill part of the forum. Somehow stalking a group ofcape buffalos, and trying to kill it with katas, or kicks doesn't sound like something I would be around to discuss. Nor would boxing with an elephant, or lion sound like a good life move. Surfing with crocodiles? Well, working in the District Attorney's office in San Francisco was sort of like that... What's really nagging at me is that I don't think you have any experience ZD, and that's why you constantly harass others with what you see as similar characteristics to yourself. From your position, and perspective, you see yourself in others, and harass them for your own failings. Certainly what you accuse me of is exactly what your past posts indicate about you. I just ask the other members of the forum to do the same search, and look at the worthless trash you post here, and perhaps the light will be back where it should be. I guess it's from teaching school, but whenever one of the kids complains about another kid, they usually started the entire thing in the first place. Also, the way you word stuff indicates real immaturity, ZD. I tend to think you are the mental age of about an 8 year old when you post stuff like this: ZD said: quote: "Called me out?" This reveals a lot about the way you think. School yard bully type of talk,?? Hmmm. Nice try. Grow up. s | |||
|
| One of Us |
The more you post, the more you prove me correct. Drone on little man, drone on... | |||
|
| one of us |
About ZD: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If members review your last 50 posts, it's pretty clear you don't have much to say of any value. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Are you less of a hunter?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |