I don't know how Alf arrived at his velocities, but my loads have been tested by the sophisticated equipment at Northfork industries when they started making 404 bullets so I suggest they are quite accurate..Mike at Northfork was amazed at how mild the loads were pressure wise, which is a characteristic of all 4831 powders I might add...

I had been chronographing those loads for some 15 or 20 years on a 10 shot average with the high and low taken out, and I am satisfied with the results..and I have used the 95 gr. load many times in the African heat..I have used that load with 400 gr. Woodleigh softs and solids, GS Customs 380 gr. FN solid, and with Northforks 380 gr. FN, soft and the new cup points....I have shot a large number of Buffalo in the last 4 or 5 years with all of these bullets...

However if anyone has doubts such as Alf seems to have then simple solution is to not use my loads....I trust my loading and Northforks reports on it....

Some chambers in 404 may not even accept this 95 gr. load as their is a lot of differences in 404 chamber reamers on a world wide scale...all of my guns were made using Walther Lothar barrels and the chambers cut with a Clymer reamer.

As I have said on more than one ocassion, my test gun had the original 27" barrel, but Mikes loading correlated to the velocities I got in that barrel....

Alf,
You will never get in a pissin match with me unless you piss first. I certainly have no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me, as long as I am not required to bow down to their opinnion...

Saeed, do you have any idea on the pressure on those loads? I would figure with your operation you might have a oehler m43 or some such. I am very interested in this thread as I am just now undertaking load development for a new 404. Thanks. D

Saeed,
Now your cooking!

Very interresting loads and you can be I will be trying some of those 2600 FPS plus loads very shortly in my guns...

Those 2600 plus velocities however do require a monolithic or a Northfork bullet IMO..I would like to shoot a buffalo with the new Northfork cup point at 2600 FPS...that would be interresting. Actually the end results are simular to the Walter hog bullets, at least in my 470 the cup points this year resembled yours.

I also got some complementary 500 gr. GS Custom hi vel hollow points for my .470 that are an interresting bullet and look like a torpedo...

I.

.

I am afraid we don't have any idea of what pressure these loads generate.

But, our usual method of load development is followed.

We keep increasing the powder charge until we see ANY signs of high pressure.

Generally, the first thing we notice is a slightly stiff bolt lift.

None of the loads mentioned have reached this level.

Also, we chamber our rifles to minimum SAAMI specs, use barrels from reputable barrel makers, usually picking the highest quality they offer.

We have received a new CNC lathe, which we hope to put into good use next month after it has been comissioned.

Once we make some more bullets, I will try all the suitable powders for thsi caliber in this rifle.

RIP,

What is the case capacity of the 404 J compared
to the 416 Remington.

I had a Rem 700 in 416 Rem with the 24 inch barrel
and that went to 2500 OK with 400 Hornadys and
Varget and RL 15. Factory ammo averaged 2410
with the 400 Swift.

This was about 10 years ago sso factory ammo
and powders might be a bit different today.

I would expect a 404 with a 27 inch barrel and the
slightly larger bore to be OK for 2600.

On the surface Ray's velocities with IMR 4831
suggest his chronograph is a Chrony
However, I have see too many calibres over the years
give velocities much higher than expected with
powders that would be regarded as being too slow.

Mike

.

I have as yet not heard of a load that has gotten
the 416 Rem to 2600 fps on a 400 gr bullet.

2500 in a 24 inch 416 Remingvton would probably equate
to about 2575 or so in a 27 inch barrel.

Increasing the bore size from 416 to 423 should
give another 20 f/s with equal pressure

That takes us to 2600 in a 416/423

Is the 404 case larger than the 416 Rem case?

Mike

.

The 404 case ( 115 gr) capacity is smaller than the 416 Rem case (142 gr)

That is a big difference.

27 grains of water would be about 23 grains (or more) of powder.
I would have thought the 404 was about the same capacity
as the 416 and if anything a bit bigger.

Are you sure of those figures. If they are right then
Ray is pure bullshit but so are others that are saying
they get 90 something grains in the 404.

By the way, if 2400 is the upper end of the 416
Rem with 400 grains then the 375 Imp would be at
about 2600 plus with 300 grains. A 450 Ackley
would be at upper end at 2260 with 500 grains.

I wonder if the extraction problems with the
Rem 416s were the product of 2 things:

1)Rem 700s often have poor primary extraction
because of poor placement of the bolt handle
and a poorly made extraction cam.

2) People being anti Remington and so....you
know the rest of the story.

Mike

.

Alf,
I suggest you go back to the drawing board...I suspect that you have the 416 Rigby and 416 Remingtons case capacity mixed up...

I am looking at a 404 case and a 416 Rem case and I can tell you from looking that your figures are wrong..the 404 is considerably bigger, now if I have to go out in the cold and get a case capacity I will, but I should not have to...

Also try shoveing a 404 into a 416 box my good man, your just a mite short of center I think....If that doesn't work then drag out a loading manual and read the powder charges.

Alf,

I suggest you go back to the drawing board...

I suspect that you have the 416 Rigby and 416 Remingtons case capacity mixed up...



Ray,



I don't suspect he has them mixed up, I know

he has them mixed up



A 140 grains plus of water would put the 416 Remington

case capacity right at the big Wby case capacity.



Mike

Mike,
I'm sure the overflow would fill our swimming holes, I say holes, because Texans and Aussies don't have swimming pools, ta da

.

Alf,

Those figures don't seem to be very good.

The difference between a 416 Remington and
416 Wby is much greater than 10 grains of water.

I imagine a 416 Rigby would be about only 5 grains or
so smaller than the 416 Wby.

Mike

Yup, according to the Barnes manual, the case capacity of the 416rem is 105 gr water and the 416 Rigby is at 132.5 gr water. Even the 416 weatherby has only 140 gr. I was very suspect of the 142 gr capacity of the Rem mag. After all it is a 375 case blown out. The 375 has only 96.37 gr of water. I do not have figures on the 404. 115 is about right though I 'spect. It is a pretty big case. It is no trouble to get 93 gr of H4831 in there with a 380 gr North Fork.

Alf,
You must still have it wrong...I still don't want to go out to the shop and measure them but try this for now:

Specs on 416 Rem
Head 532 on belt
Case at head is .512
Shoulder is .487
Lenth of case is 2.850


Specs for a 404 Jefferys:
head is 543.
case is 545 at base (note it is a rebated case)
shoulder is .530
length of case is 2.875
Not even counting the long sloping shoulder that holds a good deal of powder. The 416 does not have this...

By comparison tell me how in the hell a 416 Rem has more powder, water, gravel or feces capacity than a 404 Jefferys?????...

I think its back to the drawing board for you or maybe this time you should stand in the cornor or 30 minutes!
If I am wrong then you may expell me from the thread!!

Ray,

If the 404 is 4% larger than the 416 Remington then
that will gain 1% in velocity, say about 25 f/s over the
2500 a 416 Rem will do. Add another 20 f/s to the 416 Rem
for the increase from 416 to 423.

That puts us at about 2550 for 24 inch barrel. Add 75 f/s for
your 27 inch barrel and we are at 2625 f/s

To keeps things together I have owned an early 416 Wby which
had the 24 inch barrel plus the brake. That would go over 2700 f/s
with 400 grainers. I guess it would be at 2800 or so with a 27 inch
and a bit over 2800 if it was necked up to 423.

In a nutshell, your 2600 plus in a 27 inch barrel is nothing
special.

I suspect Alf is doing more collecting and picture taking
than shooting and chronographing

Mike

.

Anyway with that I will bow out for I have
no taste for inuendos and will certainly not
willingly hang around to be slandered
by the likes of Mike or any other.

Alfy boy,

One day you will get your own data rather than
relying on reading

Stick with posting pictures of Mausers etc.

By the way, you chose to stay with this thread,
you chose to stay with the thread where I attacked
the anti gunner Balla Balla, you chose to post
on this site's Political Forum when it first started

AND

in each case it was too much for you.

Go and take some more pictures

Mike

OK,

Here's my $.02-worth. I tried Ray's IMR loads and have been very happy with the results, except that there is no way I can load 95 grains without crushing the case in the press. I hunt with 92 grains of 4831, which produces 2,380 fps with the 400-grain Swift A-frame. However, I can not get either a Barns or an A-Square mono-metal to seat over this charge without crushing the case.

With the Monos, I shoot 78 grains of Re. 15, which is a little light, but still gives me 2,300 fps. Been told that this will kill anything on earth, up to and including a T-Rex, should one be so lucky to get a CITIES permit for one.

ALF,

I have checked the capacity of the Norma 404 brass we used.
It has a capacity of 113.5 of water, just as yours.

.

ALF,

I don't have the exact figures with me right now - I am not at the lab.

But, we matched our bullets to the bore of our rifle barrel.

I wonder if this is a reason why our velocity is higher than expected?

We had no problems with accuracy at all, as most of our loads shot less than an inch.

I will try posting the details here in the morning.

Sheesh! And all along I thought the .404 Jeffery was a few grains greater case capacity than the .416 Remington. I am flabbergasted. I still say that Varget is the best powder of all for the .404 Jeffery. Just stop stoking when you get to about 2400 fps with most 400 grainers, and stop stoking when you get to about 2500 fps with the 380 grain North Fork SP and FP, and you will have no pressure worries and no compressed loads, and no temperature sensitivity issues with VARGET.

If I wanted to shoot heavily compressed loads I would just stick with the .458 Winchester.

It is fun to disagree with Ray now and then. Quite refreshing, since it happens so infrequently. Forget the IMR 4831 powder for the .404 Jeffery unless you are looking for a 400 grainer at 2275 fps in a 24" barrel.

Does Ray have a stash of magic gunpowder labeled "IMR4831?" Lot-to-lot variation has been known to occur.

RIP

the 122 grains of the Remington 416 vs the 113 grains of the 404

Not only is the 404 smaller but it is a lot smaller.

But somehow I think those numbers are wrong.

Mike

Mike

Do you actually have a .404 Jeffrey rifle yourself?

NitroX,

Not only do I not own a 404 Jeffery I have never even seen one in the flesh.

But I seem to remember Ross Waghorn saying the 404 was slightly bigger in capacity than the the 416 Remington.

The 404 is about .540 on the head and with a very parallel body and the 416 is around the .513. So a 404 should be about 11% bigger up to the point where the 404 shoulder starts. The 416 Rem would be bigger from that point on.

Mike

Mike,
I cannot verify, as I am on the road. Wonderful how this site can stimulate the measuring of case water capacity.

I do recall that the .375 RUM has about 120 grains of water capacity, and the .375 Weatherby only has about 109 or 110 grains of water capacity. Both of these are blown out, cases of course, and the .404 Jeffery does have a long, skinny neck, long sloping shoulder and some body taper too ...

I will measure some Norma .404 Jeffery and Remington .416 Remington brass whenever I can, just for meself, since I once lived in Missouri, and take after a mule in that way.

I was shocked by my ignorance.

VARGET IS STILL THE BEST POWDER FOR THE .404 JEFFERY!!!

RIP,



The reason I think the 404 can't be 9 grains smaller in water capacity than the 404 is because too many people have said in reference to Atkinson's load that they can only get around 93 grains of IMR 4831 in the case....I just can't see how one would get 93 grains into a case that is 9 grains smaller in capacity than the 416 Remington.



By the way, I agree with you on powder for the 404 capacity/bore diameter.



But I am not prepared to discount Ray's velocity claims with IMR 4831 because over the years I have seen several instances of higher than expected velocities with powders that are regarded as being too slow. And that has been using Ohler chronograph, not Chrony.



Mike

So Alf how many grains of IMR 4831 can you get into your 416 Rem case and still seat a 400 gr bullet? I still can't believe that a blown out 375 case is bigger than a standard 404. If that were the case Saeed should have just stuck with the 375 Weatherby than the wildcat 404/375. Barnes manual says the water capacity is only 105 for the 416 rem mag. I can see a few grians difference from one brand of brass to another but you are saying it is 17 grains more than Barnes manual says? What is the highest velocity you have been able to attain with the 416 Rem. My understanding is that 2400 is tops with the Rem mag and maybe even a stretch to get there. Lots of loads out there that go past 2500 in the 404. What ya say? Good hunting. "D"

OK, this BS has forced me out to the shop where I did all the tests and photographed it...I will be glad to send these photos to anyone who would want them...or to someone that wanted to post them on this board, but they really prove nothing that couldn't be challanged.


The 416 Remington fired Rem case will hold 102.3 grs. of IMR-4831 to the top, and it will hold 106.0 grains of water...

The 404 wins as is obvious by just looking at the case...It holds 5.3 more grs. of IMR-4831 than a 416 Rem....It holds 4.1 more grs. of water than the 416 Rem...A far cry from Alfs figures..

I won't even go into how much difference there was with my RWS cases compared to the Remingtons inasmuch as RWS brass isn't available anymore in 404 but its water capacity was considerbly more than the 404 Norma brass due to its harder and thinner brass I suspect.....

I don't want to get in a pissing contest (as Alf referred to it), but the figures he touts do not coincide with mine..I don't consider disagreeing with him a pissing contest, I would prefer to call it a discussion, in which he challanged my loads safty and my findings..

The bottom line is I will continue to use my loads and my Ohler, and that will be my guide...He is welcome to his opinnion and should do likewise.

New RWS cases hold 117 gr of water to overflow and the Norma case holds 107 gr. water on adverage. My once fired cases are having 2 gr. increased capacity meaning I have a slightly larger chamber.

Lb404,
That is my exact findings also, and I have a good supply of once fired RWS that I put aside some time ago. They are loaded with my 95 Grs. of IMR-4831 and Northfork softs and GS Custom flat nose solids, there is no compression as the powder filled to the shoulder juncture..I have hoarded them for hunting only...

Hopefully, RWS will come to their senses with the advent of the many cartridges that are now on the 404 case....

In a effort to keep Ray from freezing while running (OK, hobbling) between the shop and the house I offer this.

Below is a picture of a Brand new, unsized, unfired, BeLL 404 Jeffery case filled with water.


This picture shows the case and Ohaus beam scale with the water from that case. The reading is 112.2


I admit this is the first time that I have ever done this.

Rusty,

Is that Bell 404 brass for your 404 being made on the Montana action?

Mike

Yes, that's the one. John Ricks is doing the work.