This is a tribe that occurs now and again throughout Africa and seemingly more common towards south of the continent. The breed is generally small in stature, however now and then you will come across a big one and this is an example of the latter.

A client recently told me that he had hunted Tanzania for Lion and came away empty handed but claimed the PH turned down a big full blonde male because it was so called under age. However the next client who came in shortly after him shot the very same Lion off the very same bait the first client had provided.

I must admit when I heard this I was somewhat sceptical thinking that my client was a little sore about not getting his cat, however unknown to me and the Tanzanian operator client A and B were good friends and later had ample time to agree that Shenanigans were probably more widespread that what they had originally thought.

Has anyone else come across this tribe?

did client A stay around after his hunt was over to watch client B shot the cat?? story sounds like sour grapes to me

Is it possible that client B had made some form of additional renumeration promise to obtain a lion that client A may not have been interested or willing to come forth with?

Sour grapes or not, one could see how a lion hunt could be sold and resold in a single season if no one shoots the lion(s).

A complete naivete like me would never know whether this has happened to me or anyone else, but for the PH's I have hunted with I feel confident that it has never happened.

But who would ever know for sure, eh?

To me, this is the telling part of the story.

Client A evidently had an opportunity to take this particular cat.

For some reason, the PH determined that the cat was Too Young????

Unless there was a long gap between Client A's hunt and Client B's hunt, how did that cat go from too young to shooter?

[quote]A client recently told me that he had hunted Tanzania for Lion and came away empty handed but claimed the PH turned down a big full blonde male because it was so called under age. However the next client who came in shortly after him shot the very same Lion off the very same bait the first client had provided.[/quote]

I'm recounting a story told to me by a good friend who's an agent. He was on a hunt for leopard in Moz. Got a leopard on bait in the tree...could see the cat just fine, wanted to shoot. The Ph wouldn't let him, couldn't figure out why, later after some serious questions in camp, found out the cat was being saved for another hunter.

He was furious to say the least, why even let me sit in the blind if that was the case...his thoughts.

I think this goes on quite a bit, bigger named clients or bigger wallets Phs promise a bunch of stuff at shows....just my opinion!

Perhaps the lion celebrated his 6th birthday during the short period between hunts, and became of legal age. Forget the moon phase, one needs to know the birthdays of the local male lion population.

It is interesting to learn that the Shenanigans are of African origin. I believe that they traveled across the Bering land strait as sighting of the tribe have been found throughout North American Hunting camps.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
It is interesting to learn that the Shenanigans are of African origin. I believe that they traveled across the Bering land strait as sighting of the tribe have been found throughout North American Hunting camps.

quote:

It is interesting to learn that the Shenanigans are of African origin. I believe that they traveled across the Bering land strait as sighting of the tribe have been found throughout North American Hunting camps.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I'm recounting a story told to me by a good friend who's an agent. He was on a hunt for leopard in Moz. Got a leopard on bait in the tree...could see the cat just fine, wanted to shoot. The Ph wouldn't let him, couldn't figure out why, later after some serious questions in camp, found out the cat was being saved for another hunter.

He was furious to say the least, why even let me sit in the blind if that was the case...his thoughts.

I think this goes on quite a bit, bigger named clients or bigger wallets Phs promise a bunch of stuff at shows....just my opinion!

The names of the PH and Outfitter should have been blasted over forums such as this. He showed great restraint because had it been with the wrong client some serious and immediate action could have taken place.

This goes straight back to a thread I posted a few months ago, dealing with some unwritten code about not naming names in situations like this.

Can someone explain to me, what is accomplished by not revealing the names of guides/outfitters/PH's, that are pulling this kind of crap.

As I stated in that post, if someone has that type information and decides not to share it for some altruistic reason, and I spend money for a hunt and it turns out that way, if I ever catch up to that person, it ain't gonna be pretty.

At some point each of us have a duty to warn others about these type operations and get them out of the business.

If this were to happen to me, I'd be extremely upset to say the least!!!

I'm not a thick wallet type of guy but I can save up and have fun hunting Africa. To know that a PH took my money knowing he wasn't going to let me squeeze the trigger would outrage me and I'd try to take him down or at least take some skin with me. Last I heard, the trophy fee for a particular species is the same regardless of the trigger yanker. Just so happens I may not be able to add extra animals to the bag, but my money would still spend the same for that one species as it would the high roller.

That'll be $0.02 please!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

It is interesting to learn that the Shenanigans are of African origin. I believe that they traveled across the Bering land strait as sighting of the tribe have been found throughout North American Hunting camps.

+1

+2 Sheep and Goat hunts

It would have been, shall we say, interesting; if either client had gone ahead and shot said cat.

What would a PH do, client paid for the cat, and the baits, and then shot it? That tale, told in front of a large audience at said PH's booth at DSC or SCI and the ensuing questions...

Answer A: take lots of pictures.

Rich
DRSS

Rich, I think if you will go back and look, that is what caused the problem, client B did shoot the cat, the same one that the PH told client A was too young.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
This is a tribe that occurs now and again throughout Africa and seemingly more common towards south of the continent. The breed is generally small in stature, however now and then you will come across a big one and this is an example of the latter.

A client recently told me that he had hunted Tanzania for Lion and came away empty handed but claimed the PH turned down a big full blonde male because it was so called under age. However the next client who came in shortly after him shot the very same Lion off the very same bait the first client had provided.

I must admit when I heard this I was somewhat sceptical thinking that my client was a little sore about not getting his cat, however unknown to me and the Tanzanian operator client A and B were good friends and later had ample time to agree that Shenanigans were probably more widespread that what they had originally thought.

Has anyone else come across this tribe?

With all due respect, without naming names, I don't believe a word of this.

I think this post is made in the hope of getting others to post similar incidents, if any, that had happened to them.

So if this is true, who are the actors involved in this thriller?

I think I see a similar pattern of Shenanigans to almost all of fairgame's post

I would think that this could be one of those cases of the outfitter having only one lion on quota with two lion hunts lined-up.

It would be much easier for the PH to tell client A that the lion was too young(thereby saving the qouta for client B), as opposed to having to face the prospect of guiding client B for 21 days while praying that a good lion doesn't show up.

I doubt this story. Too many coincidences....

It would have been pretty easy for the hunters to confront the PH at the SCI convention in Reno.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

With all due respect, without naming names, I don't believe a word of this.

I think this post is made in the hope of getting others to post similar incidents, if any, that had happened to them.

So if this is true, who are the actors involved in this thriller?

There's more holes in this than a seine net.

Can it happen? - sure it can but it can happen in any country (including Zambia) but it's extremely uncommon and if you book with a reputable company, it won't happen. As for it happening in Tanzania, the quota system there would make it considerably less likely than many other African countries.

There's also the fact that if someone didn't want a particular client to shoot a cat then there are plenty of easier and more diplomatic ways of doing it than simply telling him he can't shoot the cat that's on the bait...... all you gotta do is make sure the cat won't go to the bait in the first place.

Frankly and with all due respect to everyone a lot of what's here is nothing more than second or third hand gossip and whoever dreamed it up in the first place was almost certainly dreaming.

Saeed - Sent you a PM

All the rest - I am not sure why I would want to make this up? But for those non beleivers then rather treat this as an example. This sort of thing does happen and I am afraid this is the dirty side of the safari business. To sell something that you do not have is fraudulant and I consider it a criminal offence. But many of you shrug it off as a bad experience.

The account is second hand and I do not feel that I should make public or extend my client's details to this site, but have given Saeed all the client information he requires to confirm it.

To be honest (again) I would like to see a system in Africa whereas, if you as a client, do not get a good shot at your priority animal or you feel that your safari is not what was sold to you then you should get you money back or alternatively the safari should be downgraded? This would soon seperate the men from the boys?

Mike - You will note the 'similar pattern' to my threads are that they are my opinions or notes from the non glamorous side of safari hunting. One day in Africa you will come across the Shinanigans and don't say you have not been warned.

Excuse the grammer/spelling.

Andrew,

No-one said you'd made it up. They said they didn't believe it..... which is two very different things.

Regarding your lion, it could be that the guy who told you about it wasn't being entirely accurate.... esp as the vast majority of Tz concessions get 4 lions per block per year and most either don't or can't sell half that number. Therefore apart from anything else, it's unlikely that a PH or outfitter etc would have anything to gain by sending a client home without a lion.

With any cat, as I'm sure you know, there are 101 ways to make sure the cat doesn't even look twice at a bait, let alone come to it...... so why on earth would anyone want to get the cat to bait, put the client in front of it and then tell him he can't shoot it?

If something like that is going to happen, it's most likey to happen in a country where a licence can be re-cycled by the outfitter and even then, the way to do it would be to make sure the cat didn't come to the bait in the first place rather than to get the cat to bait with the client in front of it and then tell him he can't shoot it.

Don't be too sure, Steve, I have had my suspicions about this kind of thing for some time now...and to quote Forrest Gump - "that's all I have to say about that"

I just can't see it mate. Firstly, there's not many blocks take 4 a year, let alone more. I know several areas that haven't taken a lion for at least 3-4 years. Secondly, they could probably juggle quota if they needed to and I still fail to see why anyone except an idiot would bring the cat to bait, put the client in front of it and then tell him he can't shoot the cat, when all he has to do is set the bait up so no self respecting cat would go near it...... certainly, no reputable PH or outfitter would do that.

I appreciate there's always the occasional dodgy operator or two but that can be said of any industry and assuming the client did his homework, he'd know good from bad up there fairly easily.

Just being the Devil's Advocate, Steve, but although everything you say is correct there is another scenario where:
--PH has plenty of lion quota for booked hunts
--PH has new client for lion then return client/friend/high roller for lion on next hunt.
--PH would like both to get a cat, baits well, but tries to avoid the big lion he knows about
--the best lion he knows about and which he was "saving" for his returned client/friend/high roller come to the bait of the first client

Then mate, all the clients, including the high roller is hunting with the wrong outfit..... but if the PH/outfitter really wanted to do that, he'd hunt lion in a different area to the area where the big boy would be.

I'm not suggesting it's impossible or never happens just that it rarely happens and the PH and outfitter would have far easier ways to do it if he really wanted to than let the client see the animal and have an opportunity to shoot it and tell him no.

There's also the issue that many PHs let alone clients couldn't always absolutely positively identify one individual lion from another weeks apart. Firstly, there's usually more than one big boy around and secondly, they're very often/usually related and would very probably look similar.

Frankly it smells like second/third hand BS to me.

fairgame,

Maybe time for you to put up a resume. Doesn't take much to type on a 'puter, on AR or any form of news media for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by silkibex:
Just being the Devil's Advocate, Steve, but although everything you say is correct there is another scenario where:
--PH has plenty of lion quota for booked hunts
--PH has new client for lion then return client/friend/high roller for lion on next hunt.
--PH would like both to get a cat, baits well, but tries to avoid the big lion he knows about
--the best lion he knows about and which he was "saving" for his returned client/friend/high roller come to the bait of the first client

This is exactly what I am talking about - caveat emptor

Andrew, got your PM. Thanks for the explanation.

Lion hunting in Tanzania nowadays is in a mess, to put it bluntly.

Especially now they have this age limit on lions. Which I think opens the way to a lot of underhanded methods of obtaining one.

We have heard in the past about a hunter who was not allowed to shoot a lion on bait because his PH wasn't sure of its age. They had to call someone in the US, who I presume micromanage this sort of operation.

As a hunter, I think this is the sort of thing which should NOT be acceptable under any circumstances.

The PH in the field should be able to make the call. And if he says don't shoot, and the next client hunts with a different PH, with the same operator, allows HIS client to shoot, then there is something wrong somewhere, and it should be made public.

We have also heard in the past of some outfitters who have a dedicated team who check on the lions on their concessions. They have claimed that this team keeps the whereabouts of these lions to themselves. Not even telling the owners of the concession.

I find this very hard to believe. Especially as members of the owner's families and their close friends seem to get good lions, while other paying clients do not.

If one books a lion hunt, and for some reason does not manage to get one, does he get a refund on the high daily rate he has paid?

If this had happened in the past, I have not heard of it.

this sort of thing happens to sheep hunters all the time. especially when it comes to things like marco polo. the amount of the tip you are going to leave there dictates the size of the sheep. here its is not at all infrequent to have the outfitter holding say 3 tags and books 6 hunters. if the first 3 guys shoot the sheep, then the next 3 are lead around the mountain for their time and get the explanation of thats hunting for you

Andrew,

Perhaps the similar pattern I recognize is that you tend to post about things that are second hand stories and hearsay and then ask people's opinions about a contoverserial story where the facts are questionable.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Then mate, all the clients, including the high roller is hunting with the wrong outfit..... but if the PH/outfitter really wanted to do that, he'd hunt lion in a different area to the area where the big boy would be.

I'm not suggesting it's impossible or never happens just that it rarely happens and the PH and outfitter would have far easier ways to do it if he really wanted to than let the client see the animal and have an opportunity to shoot it and tell him no.

There's also the issue that many PHs let alone clients couldn't always absolutely positively identify one individual lion from another weeks apart. Firstly, there's usually more than one big boy around and secondly, they're very often/usually related and would very probably look similar.

Frankly it smells like second/third hand BS to me.

Your last comment was initially what I thought.

Note John the first hunter had studied Lion well and felt that the Lion that was being turned down was an old male and he remarked that it was pure blond and quite magnificant, and maybe it did have some identifying marks but I am not sure? However what are the chances of someone coming in a couple of days later and shooting it's identical, slightly older twin off the same bait under the same tree? Note John's opinion was based later on the photographs shown to him by his friend. John did not complain when he told me this around the campfire but rather shrugged it off as Shinanigans. It was me who felt he got his fingers burnt.

John is no bullshitter and I found him a quiet and unassuming man, one of those gentlemen who made his money from working his hands, and was more than willing to spend his hard earned cash to hunt and experience Africa.

Not sure what you mean shakari when you indicate it would be easy not to have shown him the Lion or for the Lion not to turn up? I think they probably drove into the beast whilst checking the bait? A fairly common occurence when hunting cats.

This is not an inquisition about one client and one operator but more I am interested to know of similar incidents where the client had felt that his or her safari had been little more than an expensive walk in the park? Maybe Shinanigans are more widespread than we think? For starters JTHunt seems to agree with me here?

I am off to the bush for a few days and look forward to reading your opinions at a later date.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
fairgame,

Maybe time for you to put up a resume. Doesn't take much to type on a 'puter, on AR or any form of news media for that matter.

I'll field this one......he's hunted more dangerous game than you and I have drempt of put together! Andrew Baldry of Pro Hunt Zambia. One of the kind of people I wish we had more of around here.........people who for sure actually know what they are talking about and do this for a living.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
To be honest (again) I would like to see a system in Africa whereas, if you as a client, do not get a good shot at your priority animal or you feel that your safari is not what was sold to you then you should get you money back or alternatively the safari should be downgraded?

Andrew, something we can agree on. I would totally support something of this nature, because I think it is CRAP...to think you would pay all that money and then return empty handed!!!!! People don't book hunts with the expectations of not getting their animal. Period.

I still don't understand why the daily rate increases 150-400% just because you're hunting "dangerous game". Sure there are cost to bait, but 400% more, I don't get it. Same ph, same truck, same tracker....The Dangerous part doesn't really come to to play, because if it's supposed to be some sort of HAZARD pay, then the Ph shouldn't get a rifle.

I have no doubt that this sort of thing happens from time to time with certain outfitters.

Whenever humans are involved in commerce, no matter the field, there will be underhanded and dishonest operators.

If we didn't have to worry about crooks, our lives would be much more enjoyable - but that ain't gonna happen on this side of Elysium.

I think it depends on that plains game rate and dangerous game rate you compare. Comparing a RSA plains game rate to a Tanzanian or Zambian dangerous game rate that's ludicrus!!! The government fees and logistical costs make one infinitely more expensive than the other. As far as the differnce between a plans game and dangerous game price in the same wilderness area I would imagine there wouldn't be a large difference due to logistics and government fees.

Brett

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
To be honest (again) I would like to see a system in Africa whereas, if you as a client, do not get a good shot at your priority animal or you feel that your safari is not what was sold to you then you should get you money back or alternatively the safari should be downgraded?


Andrew, something we can agree on. I would totally support something of this nature, because I think it is CRAP...to think you would pay all that money and then return empty handed!!!!! People don't book hunts with the expectations of not getting their animal. Period.

I still don't understand why the daily rate increases 150-400% just because you're hunting "dangerous game". Sure there are cost to bait, but 400% more, I don't get it. Same ph, same truck, same tracker....The Dangerous part doesn't really come to to play, because if it's supposed to be some sort of HAZARD pay, then the Ph shouldn't get a rifle.

Andrew,

Your assuming in your post that all clients will approach the success or lack of as it applies to taking their game with integrity.

Oryxhunter

You still don't get it. It's still hunting which is not always a successful endeavor in the killing of animals. When buying a safari your being sold the opportunity to hunt and hopefully it will be in a great area, with a good outfit and PH at the best time of year. Dead animals are not what is being sold or at least I don't offer that.

If you book a spendie hunt and your told up front that you have anything less than 100% chance of killing your game that means you or somebody will not get their desired species.

DG safaris are expensive for a number of concrete reasons but the bottom line is that they are and you or I have very litte control over that. Your indignation is no more appropriate here than it would be if you were comparing a KIA to the big Mercedes. They both get you from point A to B but is it the same expereince? Of course not. I'd like to be able to hunt multiple times per year in Africa but I can't afford it. If you want to hunt DG I'd suggest you make a plan rather than complaining about what you have no control over.

Mark

Withregards to costs differing between PG and DG on the same concession.Firstly some govt licences like the mini and classic in Zambia have a large price difference, that is normally built into the daily rate hence the higher rate on the classic hunt. Outfitters have a fixed govt cost on their concessions, like most businesses they only really make money on the top end products and if they didnt sell the Classic DG hunts at higher rates they would never be able to afford the concession and fund the outfit...or make a small profit; small being the operative word.

PH's deserve to be paid more on the DG hunts, anyone who has ever hunted DG understands that and it needs no explanation.

Prices are also a function of supply and demand and generally the premium DG outfitters and PH's sell out 2-3 years in advance. Like anything good they are in high demand

Mark,
I'm a savy guy and a business man, and I understand wanting to get the most for my services as reasonably possible. Let me point out, Andrew was the one with the reduced rate if unsuccessful idea, I just applauded that idea. Also, I'm not complaining about anything, I thought this was a forum, where people could have discussions. And I'm very happy to know that in 90 in days I'm going on a leopard hunt, so it will be my 1st DG experience, I'm hoping it is as good as you make it out to be.

Now, you are very well know and experienced, so I would like to ask you a question.

If I decided to book a dangerous game hunt, how about a leopard. To my knowledge, average daily rate is say 900? ( I use that figure because I've seen it advertised on many websites, brochures, ect) Now, lets say I book the same camp, same ph, same everything but for plainsgame. What will my daily rate be? Won't it be lower?

You say they are selling the DG experience, does that mean ph are providing less of an hunting experience guiding plainsgame?

I'm not trying to a jerk, just truely trying to understand, obviously there are fixed cost, and profit needs to be made, but at what point, is the market going to stepback and say "whoa this is ridiculus"...much like what's happened to plainsgame hunting. The market price has fallen to the floor. Because of competition and safari hunting in africa has become a buyer's market. Where once, people had to use agents, and had little access to operators, communication has become a breeze and exposure is limitless.

I believe, that many outfitters are pricing out their market and their future markets at the current rates. Just my opinion.

Oryxhunter,

I addressed Andrew's comments and I believe in an alternate universe were humans did not take adavantage of eachother his idea would be very doable.

This is an open forum and you can say about anything you want but your continuing mantra seems to be that you expect tangible results from your investment in a safari, you think others should also expect the same result and your still basing your measure of success on these same tangible results. As long asthis is your or anyone else'sattitude about safari you eventually will have a very disappointing safari.

OK! I'll play. Here's a real life example. You can book a plains game hunt on well known Conservancy for a daily rate of about half of what a leoaprd hunt is. The leopard is worth far more because there are only probably five on quota for the season and only five hunts can be legitimately offered. In the case of common plains game there is more quota thans lots open for the hunts. The Conservancy may never sell every kudu, impala etc it has avaiable but the cats usually sell out 1 to 2 years ahead. Leopard are more valuable because they are less abundant and more desirable.

It also does take more expertise to hunt leopard successfully than it does to spot and stalk plains game. A first year PH might do most of the plains game hunts and do an excellent job but the guys with the extensive cat expereince are what a client wants for his leopard hunt. This PH's time is more valuable so you pay for it.

Oryxhunter wrote:

"I'm not trying to a jerk, just truely trying to understand, obviously there are fixed cost, and profit needs to be made, but at what point, is the market going to stepback and say "whoa this is ridiculus"...much like what's happened to plainsgame hunting. The market price has fallen to the floor. Because of competition and safari hunting in africa has become a buyer's market. Where once, people had to use agents, and had little access to operators, communication has become a breeze and exposure is limitless."

You are entitled to your opinion and in this case your wrong. I don't know where your information is coming from but I don't agree with any of the above. There is a downturn in the economy and it has effected to a varying degrees almost everyone's bottom line but this is a temporary situation.

Where has the price fallen to the floor? Operators that were doing well before the present economy are still doing well. Marginal operators could be in a more precarious situation.

If you think the Internet has replaced the real life expereince provided by a responsible booking agent your revealing your own lack of expereince.

Mark