quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
... no prebaiting allowed in Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Andrew, got your PM. Thanks for the explanation.

Lion hunting in Tanzania nowadays is in a mess, to put it bluntly.

Especially now they have this age limit on lions. Which I think opens the way to a lot of underhanded methods of obtaining one.

We have heard in the past about a hunter who was not allowed to shoot a lion on bait because his PH wasn't sure of its age. They had to call someone in the US, who I presume micromanage this sort of operation.

As a hunter, I think this is the sort of thing which should NOT be acceptable under any circumstances.

The PH in the field should be able to make the call. And if he says don't shoot, and the next client hunts with a different PH, with the same operator, allows HIS client to shoot, then there is something wrong somewhere, and it should be made public.

We have also heard in the past of some outfitters who have a dedicated team who check on the lions on their concessions. They have claimed that this team keeps the whereabouts of these lions to themselves. Not even telling the owners of the concession.

I find this very hard to believe. Especially as members of the owner's families and their close friends seem to get good lions, while other paying clients do not.

If one books a lion hunt, and for some reason does not manage to get one, does he get a refund on the high daily rate he has paid?

If this had happened in the past, I have not heard of it.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
... no prebaiting allowed in Tanzania.

Mike, how was the ride in on that turnip truck?

quote:

With any cat, as I'm sure you know, there are 101 ways to make sure the cat doesn't even look twice at a bait, let alone come to it......

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Andrew, got your PM. Thanks for the explanation.

Lion hunting in Tanzania nowadays is in a mess, to put it bluntly.

Especially now they have this age limit on lions. Which I think opens the way to a lot of underhanded methods of obtaining one.

We have heard in the past about a hunter who was not allowed to shoot a lion on bait because his PH wasn't sure of its age. They had to call someone in the US, who I presume micromanage this sort of operation.

As a hunter, I think this is the sort of thing which should NOT be acceptable under any circumstances.

The PH in the field should be able to make the call. And if he says don't shoot, and the next client hunts with a different PH, with the same operator, allows HIS client to shoot, then there is something wrong somewhere, and it should be made public.

We have also heard in the past of some outfitters who have a dedicated team who check on the lions on their concessions. They have claimed that this team keeps the whereabouts of these lions to themselves. Not even telling the owners of the concession.

I find this very hard to believe. Especially as members of the owner's families and their close friends seem to get good lions, while other paying clients do not.

If one books a lion hunt, and for some reason does not manage to get one, does he get a refund on the high daily rate he has paid?

If this had happened in the past, I have not heard of it.

Now that you have received Andrew's explanation, do you still say...."I don't believe a word of this"?

Although the rest of us are not privy to that PM, (explanation) maybe you should tell us if it did add anything at all to the veracity of of the story, without giving too much away of course.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Hi Sir, Anyone with a little imagination can do this, possibilities include:

Hanging bait too low so cats finish it and move on, hanging too high so the cat loses interest, leaving multiple scents around (e.g. a piece of clothing). Allowing team to make a lot of noise around the bait - the list is endless. Basically do the opposite of what you would do if you were truly trying to get the cat.

However none of these are foolproof, esp. with lions, who are their own animals. They may well ignore all of the above and be there anyway.

Far easier to hide behind the "6 year rule", who is to second guess a big name PH? This is another reason I disagree with the "six year rule" and I have little doubt in my mind that the scenario Fairgame described happened. I have had my suspicions about certain operators doing this for some time now. What is even more detestable is that they hide behind a veneer of being more "ethical" than the rest of us.

HAH!

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

With any cat, as I'm sure you know, there are 101 ways to make sure the cat doesn't even look twice at a bait, let alone come to it......

Shakari, I would like to hear some of these...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there are a LOT of shinanigans going on in the hunting industry.

Sadly, those affected by the misbehaviour of either the PH, the outfit that employs him, or the client, are kept as top secret.

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:
Saeed wrote
Especially as members of the owner's families and their close friends seem to get good lions, while other paying clients do not.

quote:

Ah, me lads, Oi could tell ya blood-curdlin' stories . . . .

But me 'troat, me 'troat.

It's so dry, ya know.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
This seems like a perfectly good forum to hang outfitters with second or third-hand stories...


Why not contact the outfitters and give them a chance to respond BEFORE complaints and serious negative comments are posted here??

Personally, I have been the 'victim' of some Internet Shenanigans (clients) and it cost me a lot of money and legal fees to make it stop... I wouldnt wish that on anyone...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there are a LOT of shinanigans going on in the hunting industry.

Sadly, those affected by the misbehaviour of either the PH, the outfit that employs him, or the client, are kept as top secret.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there are a LOT of shinanigans going on in the hunting industry.

Sadly, those affected by the misbehaviour of either the PH, the outfit that employs him, or the client, are kept as top secret.

I must admit that I am a tad confused by your replies to this topic.

Your initial response to Fairgame, when he started this topic was, "I don't believe a word of this" and yet in subsequent posts you say, "lion hunting in Tanzania is a bloody mess" and "there are a LOT of shinanigans going on in the hunting industry".

Any reason for the sudden re-assessment?

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there are a LOT of shinanigans going on in the hunting industry.

Sadly, those affected by the misbehaviour of either the PH, the outfit that employs him, or the client, are kept as top secret.

I must admit that I am a tad confused by your replies to this topic.

Your initial response to Fairgame, when he started this topic was, "I don't believe a word of this" and yet in subsequent posts you say, "lion hunting in Tanzania is a bloody mess" and "there are a LOT of shinanigans going on in the hunting industry".

Any reason for the sudden re-assessment?

I believe he was saying that he didn't believe that particular story. I don't believe he said at any point in time that these things never happen.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I don't think Saeed was questioning the PH. He was saying it may not or likely didn't occur like the client thought.

Brett

quote:

Outfitters in gov't concessions make most of their money on daily rates. They charge what the market will bear. So don't try to figure out costs and compare daily rates, it will just drive you nuts.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I just read what the man writes.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by john.d.m:
Personally if I thought this had happened to me I would be totally pissed
And, if I was 100% totally sure had happened to me, I would have told others
But, in the same vane, what would clients say to what happened to me? A quick account.
I shot a nice buff on 2nd day of trip,so rest of trip was going to be playtime, plains game,bit of fishing etc etc.
We set a bait for Hyena (don`t know if this is normal or not).
Got to hide early nxt morn (day 3) we disturbed troop of babboons,hell of a noise, so we just wandered to the hide and sat there, as it got light a very nice leopard came to the bait, we actually sat and watched it for 1 hour and 5 mins,P.H. was begging me to shoot it, telling me I didn`t realise the oppurtunity I had (I soon realised).
While we were sat watching it, P.H. was telling me about a client who had been out for 3 weeks for Leopard and was coming back for another 3 weeks 2 days after I was leaving.
After an hour P.H said I could send money when I got home, so I took the Leopard.
All the paperwork was in place and was "legal"for me to take it.
So in this instance, should I have said "no, It`s ok, I`ll leave it for the chap coming next week?
P.S this was free hunt, as a mate couldn`t go, all I paid for was flights and trophy fees and tips.

quote:

Originally posted by john.d.m:
Personally if I thought this had happened to me I would be totally pissed
And, if I was 100% totally sure had happened to me, I would have told others
But, in the same vane, what would clients say to what happened to me? A quick account.
I shot a nice buff on 2nd day of trip,so rest of trip was going to be playtime, plains game,bit of fishing etc etc.
We set a bait for Hyena (don`t know if this is normal or not).
Got to hide early nxt morn (day 3) we disturbed troop of babboons,hell of a noise, so we just wandered to the hide and sat there, as it got light a very nice leopard came to the bait, we actually sat and watched it for 1 hour and 5 mins,P.H. was begging me to shoot it, telling me I didn`t realise the oppurtunity I had (I soon realised).
While we were sat watching it, P.H. was telling me about a client who had been out for 3 weeks for Leopard and was coming back for another 3 weeks 2 days after I was leaving.
After an hour P.H said I could send money when I got home, so I took the Leopard.
All the paperwork was in place and was "legal"for me to take it.
So in this instance, should I have said "no, It`s ok, I`ll leave it for the chap coming next week?
P.S this was free hunt, as a mate couldn`t go, all I paid for was flights and trophy fees and tips.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Daily rates have very little to do with costs ... they have a lot to do with species and quota (supply and demand). Outfitters in gov't concessions make most of their money on daily rates. They charge what the market will bear. So don't try to figure out costs and compare daily rates, it will just drive you nuts.

The awkward part is what happens if you don't get your trophy. That's tough if you have a good opportunity and turn it down, but if you don't even get a shooting opportunity, then you are either exceedingly unlucky, or you have been taken. Either case, the outfitter should offer you some consideration for a future hunt.

Now it sometimes happens that you book a meat and potatoes hunt, and you luck into an extra, eg a leopard or elephant "for the trophy fee". This can only happen late in the season, when there is unallocated quota. A good reason to hunt late.

quote:

Originally posted by john.d.m:
Oh I think I`d recognise one fairgame, I been around abit mate