http://www.3dshoots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24082

What do you guys think?

I am not keen on this type of bow hunt.

Gerhard

I really enjoy bowhunting, especially if i am walking and stalking, i have only hunted three animals on foot with the bow, i have shot roughly 30 animals from a hide but we use the hide on our farm purely to manage the populations in a manner that does not put stress on them. to me hunting out of a hide has its drawbacks (no pun intended) and it has no real challenge to it, other than parking off for the whole day and keeping still in the same breath i have a client who is up in Zim at the moment on an elephant hunt with a bow, he is using a similar set-up if not more powerful. Problem is that with an ele its going to run a LOOOONNNNGGGG way before it expires. I admire him for wanting to take one with his bow and trying so lets see what happens.

IMHO whatever blows ones skirt up - as long as the animal is killed ethically and quickly. I plan on using my .458 FN next year on an ele and would much rather leave my bow at home.

sorry but but the mild side of me demands that an animal as magnificent and intelligent as an ele deserves a much quicker death than one by hemorrage. it is one of the reasons for the brain shot with a heavy rifle.

458Aubs...

I agree 100% with you.

I love bow hunting. But there is just to many things that can go wrong when hunting the big animals in Africa.

I did penetration tests on a Rhino after it was hunted with a rifle and I got the utmost respect for how solid these big animals are build.

I would rather use my 500 Jeff for animals from Cape Buff and bigger.

But thats just my 2 kwanza

Hi Gerhard,

If it can help you, check out this shot placement gallery : http://www.africahunting.com/m...e=viewarticle&id=196

Didn't Howard Hill kill an elephant with a bow (a long time ago)? He was shooting something like a 120 LB. draw weight long bow.
Peter.

I just met the women who killed an elephant with a bow. I saw it air on versus tv and she did a seminar this past weekend at the wisconsin sci show. It was a one shot kill, they don't know how long it took to die because they backed out for the night. I think you have a better chance of something going wrong with a bow, just way too many big ribs in the way. I think a rifle is far more ethical, just my opinion.

Here is a link to an elephant bowhunting thread over on bowsite. http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/b...messages=66&forum=36

These guys are talking about getting complete pass throughs on bull elephants. Impressive to say the least.

Gerhard,
You speak from ignorance. Most bowkills are quicker and more peaceful than rifle shots. After being arrowed the animal walks, trots or runs a short distance and lies down a dies. No great noise, no great concussion with the susequent release of adrenaline and histamines to drive the terrified animal onto the next ranch! Take some time and hunt with a good bowhunter using modern tackle and learn a few things.

DAL elephants are very,very different to your average animal shot with a bow.If you know about the physiology of an elephant you will what i am talking about. With my limited experience i have only been on one elephant bow hunt, had we not been there with rifles the animal would have been wounded and lost after a 'good shot' at 18 yards. Guys have and will kill elephants cleanly with a bow, but in my humble opinion it is best left to the fanatical/expert bow hunter who has extensive experience on thick skinned game. Most elephant and rhino bow hunts end with the report of a rifle.Maybe before you are so quick to judge Gerhard you should get your facts straight and come and spend some time in Africa hunting big game first hand .....

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
DAL elephants are very,very different to your average animal shot with a bow.If you know about the physiology of an elephant you will what i am talking about. With my limited experience i have only been on one elephant bow hunt, had we not been there with rifles the animal would have been wounded and lost after a 'good shot' at 18 yards. Guys have and will kill elephants cleanly with a bow, but in my humble opinion it is best left to the fanatical/expert bow hunter who has extensive experience on thick skinned game. Most elephant and rhino bow hunts end with the report of a rifle.Maybe before you are so quick to judge Gerhard you should get your facts straight and come and spend some time in Africa hunting big game first hand .....

I agree with all that Scott450 says - elephants are very, very different...

David

if you want to hunt DG with a bow you do it with a bow as back up if you are still prepared to do that you are welcome to hunt that animal.

its like going to a fight with mike Tyson and you are only 12 taking your brother Lennox to back you up. if you want the fight go prepared to do it yourself.

I agree completely with David and Scott that Elephants are very different indeed to all the other quarry species and indeed, I'm sure many/most people here will know that I have very strong opinions on what is and isn't an appropriate Elephant to take as part of a sport hunt........ and that I have no time or patience with those who take inappropriate Elephants, (someone once told me I was famous for my quote of 'any fool can shoot an Elephant and many fools do') but all that said, I'm not necessarily against them being bowhunted per se.

It doesn't matter whether you use a rifle or a bow if you place your shot wrongly, with either weapon, you've got trouble on your hands and a wounded animal and if you place the shot correctly, then you've got a dead Elephant either way. Choice of equipment is equally important with either weapon.

Don't forget the studies that Tony Tompkinson did for KZN Wildlife some years ago where he shot 100 animals with a bow and then replicated the shots on another 100 animals with a rifle. His report found that bowhunting caused no more distress than rifle hunting and in many cases less.

Also don't forget that the indiginous populations of Africa have been bowhunting Elephants for thousands of years...... and still are in some places.

I wouldn't want to conduct an elephant bowhunt myself but as long as the hunter is competent and confident with his weapon of choice and that choice was legal, I wouldn't criticise someone else for doing it.

Ive had so many arguments over what has been discussed hear.I do both bow and rifle hunting.My argument is there is witha rifle there is a legal limit set.You have to hunt with a375 and bigger.There has to be a good reason for this.If a elephant charges you you wont have time to pull another arrow never mind dropping a charging elephant or even forcing him to change direction.I know the ph is there but two guns have to be better than one.Steve mentioned that if you make a bad shot with a rifle or a bow you will have your hands full.Ive seen plenty tapes were the hunters first shot wasnt so good but has had the time to pull off a second that has been a fatal shot.i just dont see that happening with bow

Jimmara,

I see your point and although I wouldn't personally want to do a bow hunt for an Elephant, if I did do one, I'd have it stipulated in the contract and/or indemnity that the PH could shoot if he thought it necessary. I wouldn't be prepared to just watch the bloody thing wander away with an arrow in it and nor would I let it charge and not do anything about it. (obviously)

I guess it all depends on the competency of the client and the PH........ but that could be applied to all hunting.

Wasn't going to go anywhere near this one, but!! I agree with shakari on most all points for taking elephant with a bow.

Having never taken a ele with a bow somewhat limits my first hand experience but do have several friends who have done so. Let me say, the only reason I would not hunt ele with a bow now is at 65 years of age I simply cannot shoot a heavy enough bow to get the job done. Just for reference here, I have bowhunted for over 45 years, taking nearly 300 big game animals, and 17 African species in the mix. These include some pretty large critters, moose, eland, bear, kudu, gembsbok, zebra and elk etc. So I do have a little first hand experience in the overall issue. Size of the animal, has no bearing on this, period. If a razor sharp broadhead is pushed through the heart/lung area of any animal, it will die and very quickly. Just a plain, simple fact.

Ele with a bow is not a stunt, if done by a competent, experienced bow hunter. It should in no way be attempted by anyone with marginal skills and experience. As for backup with another bow, that's ridiclous and an obvious slant by someone who has no knowledge of bowhunting at all.

If the use of a bow is legal for ele, and attempted by a qualified bow hunter more power to them. Twenty years ago I would have been right there with them.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

On thin-skinned PG arrows are extremely effective, if you speak to most bowhunters, many get pass-throughs quite frequently when using 70lb bows, provided you do not hit any heavy bones.

Elephant are not just thick skinned, they are massive and have huge bones. I believe Howard Hill also used a 110lb longbow for many of his hunts and heavy arrows...that must have required some brute strength, training and technique! Yes you can do it and it has been done, but if you hit a rib square on or the scapula it is not going to happen. I watched Pete Shepley shoot a bull in one of his videos, he got good penetration, and the shot looked good, but the ellie went miles. It killed the ellie, but it had to be recovered from a neighbouring national park which it ran into with probably a double lung shot.

If he had hit the heart it would have been tickets, although it still may have run up to a hundred yards or so. Yes with modern high draw weight compounds, heavy arrows and good broadheads it has proven to be capable, but still there are lost of things that could go wrong. I also think it should only be left to professionals who have had a lots of bowhunting experience.

I'd never be strong enough to draw the bow.

Don't forget that howard hill shot a pretty ineffecient style of longbow and the arrows of the day weren't anywhere as good as carbons are. I'd be willing to bet that a modern 75 or 80 lb. recurve or longbow would far out penetrate his set up.

Also the ethics of hunting have changed a lot from Hills time and even Fred Bear shot an elephant but things didn't "go well" for either hunter....."what happens in Africa stays in Africa" definately applies in these cases.

I bet there wouldn't be a more thrilling hunt though and I'd do it in a second if I was able.


the chef

Guys
I am a bowhunter, as well as an elephant hunter, but personally will never mix the two. I too think an ele is ''different''. I don't have a problem if anyone else with the right combination of experience, maturity, proper equipment and common sense wants to give it a whirl. Richard Harland ,a real expert on all things elephant is totally against it. His argument is that no weapon that cannot INSTANTLY stop a charge is putting lives at risk for the sake of ego. I have also seen that exact situation in action and I can see his point of view. If, however, the client does not try to tie the P.H.'s hands insisting that no backup shots be fired if "the client'' feels it was a lethal hit , then I say do your best but do not say a word, not one , if the PH feels the need, for any reason , to place a backup shot into the fleeing animal. As I said, I enjoy bowhunting myself, but as a guide at home ,as well as a long time full booking agent in Africa, it seems that the larger the animal sought, the larger the ego of the seeker. Not in every case, but the majority.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Didn't Howard Hill kill an elephant with a bow (a long time ago)? He was shooting something like a 120 LB. draw weight long bow.
Peter.

Yep..so did fred Bear and many others. Years ago some African tribes shot them with poison arrows, killed them with deep, stake-lined pits, killed them by dropping heavy iron spears from way up in a tree; poachers even these days shoot them with antique, inaccurate muzzle-loaders with lead balls....yep, many ways to produce a dead elephant....if your not bothered by the prolonged suffering of such a magnificent animal as the african elephant.

Nothing penatrates that thick hide & bone, and kills quicker & more humane than a well placed solid from a heavy rifle!!

Why must we do this? Not many people hunt eles with a bow and the ones that do put a great deal of time prepairing for this hunt, with finging a PH that is willing to do it and using the correct equipment.

This crap of putting other hunters down for doing something you don't like, only gives ammo to anti hunters. If you don't like it, look the other way, but don't help anti hunters

While I pesonally would never hunt an Elephant with a bow it is because I can't draw a heavy enough bow any more. I have killed 3 Elephants with a rifle and actually did not get the first one I shot as it went into an area I did not have access to before he died. It was with a 375 H&H and a poorly place brain frontal shot . I'm sure he died from my second shot which was a heart/lung shot. My second was killed with a 470 NE and it was a heart/lung shot and it ran well over a hundred yards before expiring. My third was also a heart lung shot from a 416 Rigby at less than 20yards and it ran off and we didn't find it till the next morning (it was dusk when I shot it) and it had gone a good 2 miles before finally giving it up. In 1952 a friend and I went to Jackson to see a movie of an elephant kill by bow and a demonstration by the hunter, Howard Hill. I met him after the show and that started a life long love of archeryt for me. After meeting Fred Bear later in life and talking to him my love was reinforced. While I have never taken anything but small game with a bow it certainly has not been for lack of trying. I always wanted to try it in Africa but just never felt I could make the investment in time it required to me. I greatly admire anyone skilled enough to take an Elephant with bow and certainly do not think there is any thing in the least less than the most sporting doing so. It pains me to see some denigrate the sport and sportsman who does so.

This same old crap pops up every month like clock work.

Just because it can be done, on rare occasions, doesn't make it right. Just a stupid stunt, winding up with the PH doing the real hunt.

If it is so cool, just do it without a PH. I dare you!

I for one, am not knocking bow hunting. I have many avid bowhunter friends. But facts are facts: it is NOT possible to kill an elephant instantaneously with a bow; but it certainly is with a rifle, by way of a (properly placed) brain shot. IMO: A bullet in the brain is much more humane.
If its your dream to take an elephant with a bow....go for it, and more power to you! Just make sure you have a skilled PH who is backing you.

Will, excuse me!!
"If it's so cool, just do it without a PH. I dare you!" That has to be the most absurb thing I have ever heard you say? Why would doing it with or without a PH have anything to do with it being "cool". Nobody even said it was cool!! Where did you come up with that? I guess the same would apply for hunting ele with a rifle as well, huh? If it's so cool, just do it without a PH. I dare you!

Shootaway - that's the spirit, bash all the other hunters out there that don't agree with you and doing it "your way". Talk about some crap!!


Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This same old crap pops up every month loke clocl work.

Just because it can be done, on rare occasions, doesn't make it right. Just a stupid stunt, winding up with the PH doing the real hunt.

If it is so cool, just do it without a PH. I dare you!

Tanz - "Just make sure you have a skilled PH who is backing you." I think that statement would apply to anyone hunting ele no matter the weapon. From sling shot to RPG!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
I for one, am not knocking bow hunting. I have many avid bowhunter friends. But facts are facts: it is NOT possible to kill an elephant instantaneously with a bow; but it certainly is with a rifle, by way of a (properly placed) brain shot. IMO: A bullet in the brain is much more humane.
If its your dream to take an elephant with a bow....go for it, and more power to you! Just make sure you have a skilled PH who is backing you.

Like that's going to happen?? Don't hold your breath shootaway. About as likely as all you in Quebec moving back to France, heh?

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I wish all the bow hunters would be rifle hunters and cut the crap.

Why is it ok to make a double lung/heart shot on any other animal but not ok on an elephant?
The fact is a well placed arrow kills with much less stress prior to death than a gun shot.
I respect all forms of hunting if done legally.Iam booking an elephant hunt with a bow and the PH I am going to be using has told me that the elephant generally dies much more humanely when shot with a bow than with a gun with exception of the brain shot.
I suspect some of the arguments against bow hunting elephants is out of ignorance of the killing effficency of the bow, but I have no doubt many of these nay sayers are simply embarassed that they lack the balls to try it.

Plus 1 Dr. C Good luck on your quest and keep us posted!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I bow hunt first, gun hunt second. I can not explain why hunting elephants with either is not at the top of my list for things to do but that will probably be the last of the big five for me. It would make no sense to most but I would rather have another zebra or kudu than an elephant but a buffalo hunt does make my blood pump. That being all said,,,, for the big boys, my bow will stay in the case,,, the 416 rigby will be in the field. My hunting buddy eyedoc will take a bow after a buf in a heart beat and has 2 already with it,, but,,not me, personal preference,,, I want to make a big BANG for the dangerous stuff, It is not fear that makes it that way for me but it might should be,, just the way I want to do it. In fact Buffalo are next on the wish list for 2010.Even a good shot with a gun or bow can put any hunter in the stew pot with the big boys and the Ph is very important at that time. Maybe having a PH friend get stomped to death by a cow elephant makes me really cautious. Guess that is why the call it dangerous game hunting..

Dr.C as a bowhunter you no doubt have seen animals that didn't realize they were hit until they fell over dead. I've shot deer that went on feeding until they wobbled and toppled over. Everyone is going to jump on the bandwagon and say elephants aren't deer but elephants will surely bleed out fast if properly hit. Add to that that they might not realize something has happened and you have one dead elephant not too far from where you shot him. It's the sound of a gun that makes most game run after being shot, when they run from being bowshot they sure don't run far.

Some things to consider that are measurable though-how much blood does an elephant have and how much does it have to lose before expiring. How fast does the hear pump and at what volume. Once you know these answers it gets a little more predictable.

the chef

Have any of you ding dongs that can't see anything wrong with hunting elephants with a bow ever hunted one?

IMHO, going after an elephant with a bow is nothing but a stupid stunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Have any of you ding dongs that can't see anything wrong with hunting elephants with a bow ever hunted one?

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Have any of you ding dongs that can't see anything wrong with hunting elephants with a bow ever hunted one?

X2!

Yes,of course. I would not have posted if I did not have personal experience upon which to base my comment.

Taking large, thick skinned animals with a bow is a remarkable challenge.

I think a 'ding dong' is a cake confection, isn't it?

The elephant (bow) hunts that I watched on video were sorry affairs with the animals left to die a slow lingering death.

I don't know how representative the videos were of most hunts, but if they were a fair example of what to expect, the practice is to be despised.

Again, my opinion is only based on the material that I've watched, which might well be unrepresentative.

yep,if it ain't my way than its wrong,stupid, a stunt,ignorant.
none of us want to see any animal suffer a slow painful death.
but none of us are right to limit anyone elses weapon or style of hunting.
alot of passing judgement here imo
didn't say you don't have a right to your opinion.
minus the name calling.

quote:

I suspect some of the arguments against bow hunting elephants is out of ignorance of the killing effficency of the bow, but I have no doubt many of these nay sayers are simply embarassed that they lack the balls to try it.

Like this one?

OOPS, make that two, ignorance and no balls.

I'm sure from a fellow with a lot of elephant experience too, eh?

JPK

I would be curious to know what the PH's feel the level of competency is from the average rifle hunter compared to the average bow hunter.

So a guy using a bow is a stunt hunter....
Regardless of how skilled of a hunter he is, and regardless of how efficent of a kill he makes.
The simple fact that this person used a bow makes it a stunt. I DONT THINK SO!

So out of the thousands of old men shooting too big of a rifle, making shitty shots and having the PH actually kill the ele isn't a stunt..... RIGHTTTT.