Im planning on getting a CZ in .416 Rigby as soon as it gets at Sportsmans Warehouse.

But, am a little bit concerned about the recoil.

I plan on loading up 350 gn bullets @ 2000 fps or so to start. shoot it a lot and then work my way up to 400gn @ 2400 fps.

Getting the Rigby instead of .375HH as a one gun safari. Bigger than needed for PG but will work, make a good Buff gun and decent Ele gun.

With practice can the Rigby be shot as well as a .375 in most field shooting positions?

Part of the fun is using a big bore (well, sorta big bore).

I will use it for things that don't need such power but just to shoot it.

Is recoil comfortable with practice?

Big bores are fun right?

I guess I'm just needing a little reasurance.

Allen

Recoil is definitely manageable/comfortable with practice and yes, big bores are fun.

If you are willing to work your way up with loads and lots of range time you should have no problem. Also do yourself a favor and get a set of shooting sticks or make a standing bench and do lots of shooting unsupported. Most of your shooting should be done away from the bench.

If you are still nervous, find someone with a 416 Rigby within driving distance of your home and try it out. I think you will find that the recoil is not very bad.

Do you currently have a 375? If not then that may be the better route.

As cheap as CZ's are, I would recommend a 375 first and see how it goes. You can do everything with one and it is less brutal than a 416.

If you are not careful a 375 can give you all the scope eye you probably could ever want. A 416 is not a walk in the park as many imply, and is really a standup instrument and not an all positions rifle.

I would try a 416 Rigby first if possible. The recoil would not bother me but then I shoot a CZ in 458 Lott from the bench. The CZ has a nice cushy recoil pad and a well designed stock which makes it more comfortable for me to shoot than my 12 guage Mossberg 500 shotgun shooting slugs.

That said, there is nothing wrong with a 375 H&H Magnum for a one gun safari rifle even if the targets included elephant and buffalo.

Another opinion to consider -

But first, do you have any experience with a bigger bore rifle, even a .375 level cartridge? If not, you will be entering a different world of recoil. Shoot someone's big bore first, preferably in a stock that fits you well. If you already know about good stock fit and how to manage recoil WITH a good "cheek weld" and trigger control, follow-through, etc. then...

I want to say I've discovered after much application of what I've been learning at AR and on two safaris, plus shooting off sticks vs. just the bench, the following:

(a) my tolerance level ends with my .300 H&H Remington 721 ("classic" stock with added leather pad and Beartooth comb raising kit to get 14" LOP and proper eye-scope alignment) when shooting off sticks. My .375 WeM Bruno ZKK 602 and .416 Rigby CZ 550 Safari Magnum rifles simply translate too much shock to my head. Again, that is when keeping my head down / cheek on the stock until the rifle stops recoiling.

(b) off-hand is another matter, and even the Rigby is "fine" for up to 10 shots at a practice session, involving maybe three rifles

(c) in hunting situations one certainly handles much more recoil without noticing it. However, practice having gone before you can have learned to flinch / mishandle recoil so technique can be flawed. retreever's method of shock-absorber arms needs a lot of practice, including building up your grip as well as tricky trigger control while doing the "pull-me-push-you" thing with fore-end and pistol-grip stock portions. It DOES manage recoil quite well. Also, you can practice mechanics with a rifle of smaller caliber, hopefully similarly configured to your new Rigby.

Long-winded reply, but I'd have been interested in the details in your position myself. Cheers!

BNagel

All the previous gentlemen have given you good advice.This is a very subjective area to venture into. Much depends on your recoil tolerance, which can be inceased thru with practice. It also depends on stock design and fit. My CZ 416 Rigby is in a Brockman laminated stock with a Kick-eze recoil pad and is Magnaported. It is stout from the bench but is a pussycat offhand or sitting. A mercury tube or Dead Mule recoil reducer in the buttstock is a good idea. If you can, try a .375 and 416 so you have some experience for comparison. Many 375's have a sharp jab while 416's, 458's have more of a hard push. You are on the right path with your idea of working up to the heavier loads. Once you get used to it you are going to really like the 416 Rigby. Good luck, Russ Green.

I would agree with getting a 416 and learning to shoot it. I don't agree that the 375 is the ultimate in comprimise DG rifles and much prefer a 416 if thick skin game is involved in the hunt. I would rather shoot a 416 than a 12ga with 3"mag loads and I "feel" the recoil of the 3" goose loads or rifle slugs more than a 416. I ran through 40 rounds of 416 the other day and that was off a bench so it's not all that hard to shoot. I own and shoot three different 375's and see no advantage. Learn to shoot the 416's and I doubt if you'll ever regret it.

Allen,

I cannot shoot a light weight 416 prone. (8 1/2 pound Dakota).

I can shoot a 10 pound with scope 375 improved prone. (Recoil between a 375 and 416).

The CZ is fairly light in either caliber.

You can shoot a 416 as you suggest, gaining confidence, starting w lighter bullets and working up.

A mercury tube does help!

And dont be afraid to use a bag of bird shot between your shoulder and stock when shooting off the bench when doing load development.

Andy

The recoil on the .416 is real and quite stout by my standards. When I first got mine I had no trouble shooting 20-30 shots a session standing.

After awhile I developed a flinch and installed mercury recoil reducers (Thanks Lawndart!). The recoil is less now but probably mostly due to added weight.

My gunsmith has a theory though: Practise with lighter calibers and only shoot 10-20 rounds a year with the heavier guns.

This advice is for us who like big calibers but are a bit shy of recoil -boha and others seem to shoot .500´s all day with no problem.

I´d never part with my .416, it´s a superb round.

Rifle weight and stock design. Overlooked but very important.

I have an M98 Mauser Magnum in 416 Rigby and it is a pleasure to shoot, even off a bench.

The rifle, without scope, is 9.5 pounds. And the stock is perfect for me.

You'll hear a lot about fit, and it is important. In my mind, though, nothing is more important regarding fit than length of pull. Too short, and you'll be spliting your nose or hitting yourself in the eye. Too long, and you are looking at serious shoulder pain.

My 2 cents.

I too am new to the big bores, and the recoil does take time to grow accustomed to. I may have had an advantage in that I was brought up with an ultralight (6lb.) .30-06, but my Sako .375, and my CZ .416 Rigby are a whole different world.

My advice is to buy a PAST(?) recoil pad, and make sure you only shoot your biggy a few (4-8)times each session. Alternate betweenthe biggy and someting tame(I use my .308)--this helps me at least reinforce the calm squeeze I am looking for. I have been shooting mine for a few months now, and I am growing more and more accustomed to the recoil.

Do what you need to do at the range. You never (should never) notice recoil or noise when hunting.

A 6 pound .30-06 is instant abuse.

Use a lead - sled off the bench to start-it really tames the big boomer's.

Ouch! A 6lb 30-06.I bet thats fast recoil.I like a big shove better.

Anybody else notice this,I went to look at .416s
Ruger RSM & CZ 550 Safari Magnum. I thought I would love the RSM pretty wood 1/4 rib barrell band and all.

Handled it and it felt stiff, kinda like swinging a crowbar. I thought oh well this is what a mag size action feels like.

Then I picked up the CZ 550. It was in .375 but still, what a difference! TOTALLY surprised me. It pointed nice, sights lined up for my eyes, lenth of pull just a bit long.

So CZ 550 safari Magnum it will be as soon as it gets in.

I talked to Dennis Olson, changes to be made..

Metal: Add barrell band, wing safty, straighten bolt handle, add metal grip cap, smooth up action check feeding, trigger job, Double cross bolts,reinforce wrist if he thinks its needed.

Wood:Cut forearm to 8.5"w/ebony tip,thin down forearm a bit,thin down pistol grip area too big for my hand to more like the 06 550 grip size,reshape cheek pice to oval (British style) he said plenty of wood there, rechecker.
Shorten length of pull & add 1" pachmayer if its not already a pacmayer pad.

Does Pachmayer make a red decelerator?

Then practice practice practice!
Allen

I wouldnt start with a 416. I think a best starter would be a 375. I started with a 375, bought a 416 then sold it as recoil aside I dont think its really any better. The 375 is cheap and fun to shoot on anything from whitetails to elephant.

IMHO, it is on par with shooting a 3.5" turkey load out of my SBEII, if not less recoil.

Too much has been written about shoulder bruising big bores and their god awful brutal recoil. So much that many people are psyched out before they even fire off a round.

Just remember that many, many hunters and shooters have mastered big bores. A .416 is as manageable as any other caliber as long as it's chambered in a well and properly made rifle that's of proper weight for caliber.

You've got the right idea about fixing it up.

I'd invest the bucks and trick out the CZ to make it a truly well conceived and properly made rifle--basically, I would add a heavier profile barrel, then glass bed the action in a nice piece of walnut, with a steel grip cap, an ebony fore end tip and a straight buttstock (although the CZ 550 American isn't terrible), with a larger butt profile (i.e., wider and deeper) that's fitted with a good recoil pad (I've always liked the Pachmayr Decelerator), and then I'd make sure it was the right heft for caliber--9-10 pounds unscoped.

Also, the stock needs the right length of pull. IMO, a big bore rifle needs an LOP that's a bit on the long side.

I like a few other things, too, like a three position, Model 70 style safety, a straight bolt handle with a solid bolt knob, a simpler trigger moved back toward the rear of the trigger guard, good NECG/Recknagel sights, barrel band sling swivel, double cross bolts, etc., but a lot of that is just personal taste. If your tastes run the same way, American Hunting Rifles, Inc. or any number of other semi-custom and custom smiths can fix you up nicely. And the fellow you're talking to, Dennis Olson, has a great reputation as a big bore gunsmith.

In other words, the stock CZ .416 is a great rifle for starters, IMHO.

In any case, don't worry or even think about the recoil. Just go out and shoot your rifle with the right positive attitude and approach. And practice. A lot. You will, in all likelihood, surprise yourself.

This is my CZ actioned .416, slicked up and made to my specs by AHR:



Good shooting!

Kind of depends on what you are used to. If your regular deer rifle is a .243, you will definetly have an issue w/ recoil from a .416Rigby. If you have an elk rifle, say a .300 or 338winmag, the recoil will be a step up but managable. Your idea of starting w/ 350gr bullets @ 2000fps is a good one, then push the vel. of those to 2400-2500, then start w/ the 400gr @ 2000fps & work up.
I shoot a 10# scoped .404jeffery & the weight is just about right. I shot 300+ rounds before I went to Moz. for buffalo w/ it & took it as my only rifle. I had no problems taking game out to 200yds or so & managed to get only one scope cut in all those rounds off the bench & in the field, on the last shot of the hunt, go figure.

Speaking of light 30-06's a guy on I think the cabela's or basspro forums supposedly had a 4 1/2" 30-06, 16 inch barrel with a wire stock and some light action. That's some crazy recoil.

What is the furthest distance you would shoot PG with .416 Rigby w/400gn @ 2400 fpsAllen

Some thoughts/questions.

I have seen a few guys talking about building .404 Jeffery and .416 Taylor rifles and keeping them fairly lght. Don't remember what "light" was called.

A 400 gn .416 or .423 bullet going 2400fps would recoil some what similiar regardless weather it's a Tayler or Jeff or Rigby I know less powder and more pressure (Taylor to Rigby)
would be somewhat less recoil.Correct?

But when you say Rigby folks think you need more rifle weight and hold on to your hat.
Is the recoli that differnt between a .404J and .416 rigby? At like velocity.

Also wouldn"t a 400gn .416 Rigby @ 2200 fps still be a pretty good rig? On a factory CZ
rifle thier built on the same action. Hence same weight gun. Could always open it up more if needed.
Allen

Now you know why it seems like a Platters convention here with so much smoke in your eyes.

A 400 gr. bullet leaving at 2400 fps is the same from wherever it is coming, except on AR.

Fear not there will be a flood of reports that a Taylor will recoil less, or is it more, than a Rigby, and the other way for a Remington.

But is 2200 fps good enough? Now you have started a real controversy!!

Most of the felt recoil calculators I have seen show more recoil when more powder is used, even for same weight, same caliber bullets, same velocity. So technically, 2400 fps with 103 grains of powder will generate more recoil then 2400 fps with 85 grains of powder. My personal experience is that a huge muzzle blast and flash seem to add to the shock of the experience although they may not technically increase recoil.

Indeed, the powder is part of the momentum transfer to the rifle. If one can tell the difference in 20 grains of powder, I bow to their sensitivity.

The .416 Rigby is a lot different in recoil than a .375, which is exactly why you see so many people hunting with a .375. For some it is all they can shoot accurately. The best advice I can give you is to shoot it a little a lot. In other words start out at 3-4 shots in a session after you have shot some .223's, .270's etc. Then pick it up fire a couple or three and put it up. Recoil is cumulative, ask any trapshooter. It is much easier to shoot a few times a day a couple times a week than to go out and shoot 20 rounds at once, develop a flinch, then try to cure it. I still don't shoot my RSM over 5-6 times an outing, but I'm in the country and shoot 3-4 sessions a week. That Ruger feels heavy and awkward until you pull the trigger, I wouldn't want it any lighter. Recoil to me involves thresholds, anything up to a .270-7x57 is non existent, then from a 7 Mag through a .338-.375 is another level, the .416-.458 is in another class. I would recommend putting a Leupold in 1.5-5x or 1.75-6x on the big rifles just because of eye relief. There may be another brand that approaches the eye relief of these, but I'm not familiar with it. I turn them up to 6x and put it far enough forward that I can just barely use it. Most shooting will be at lower power and this will make sure you have max eye relief in hunting positions which is a lot different than practice.

You are right Allen, for the most part a 10# .416Rig will recoil the same as a 10# .404j or .416REm. if the bullets are the same weight & vel. The 20gr of powder added to the Rigby is like knocking 1# off your rifle weight, or pushing the bullet 120fps faster. I can certainly tell the diff. in recoil between 350gr buulets @ 400gr bullets at the same speeds. This is off the bench mind you, standing or sitting, it all feels about the same.
Going to a .416rem, Taylor, Jeffer allows you to build a rifle on a slightly smaller/lighter action than a .416Rig. You could then add the weight into the bbl. if you wanted & still have two rifles that weight the same but feel diff. under recoil. In the CZ it would matter little except for maybe magazine capacity.

Allen,

I am currently doing the exact same thing that you are planning.

I owned a CZ Lux in 375 H&H. It was a great rifle. I never had any problems shooting it off the bench while working up loads. I just felt that it was too heavy/clubby for a 375 H&H.
I also wanted something bigger.

I got rid of it and found the exact same rifle in 416 Rigby. I prefer the Hogback style stock. Stock style is purely personal preference IMO.

I am looking to retain the European styling, combined with practicality. I felt that the schnabel forend needed to be redone to go with the hogback style stock.

Had I gone with the classic American style. Just didn't fit me. I would have then gone with an ebony forend and class American styling.

It is at Marc Stokeld's this moment.
1. Barrel is cut to 600mm.
2. barrel band
3. new trigger & three position safety
4. Patridge front sight and rear peep. Integral express sight removed (personal preference)
5. The whole stock is being trimmed. The forearm being shortened and schnabel reshaped. Refinished and recheckered. (Once again personal preference)
6. All metal being rust blued
7. Action cleaned up w/ a heavier magazine spring.

All topped with a Talley QR rings and Leup.1-5.

I did shoot it a half a dozen times before I sent it to be reworked. I did not find the recoil objectional but it is more than the 375.

When I get the rifle back. I am going to use a lead sled for load development off the bench. When that is done, I am going to start with 350gr light loads and progress to 400gr light loads then on to full power 400gr loads.

Then practice, practice, practice.

I don't think that I am too recoil sensitive, but I did own a 35 Whelen in Rem 700 classic that I sold because of the recoil factor. That was the worse rifle I have shot. In fact, I still cringe whenever I think about shooting it.

The worst I have shot was a very light Savage .300WM with hot loads (not my gun).
Rock hard recoil pad and light! Im guessing. Dont know the real weight it sure didnt feel 7lbs.
It didnt hurt it was just so fast of recoil impulse it was not comfortable.

I had a Winchester model 94 in Marlin 444. With factory loads rocked you back a bit but was a blast! Cant remember but i think mag held 5. If you cranked it off as fast as you could work the lever it was a blast.

The recoil on the 94 wasnt all painful and it only weighed 6.5 lbs.

Don't laugh but here's the best I ever received regarding recoil... A looooong time ago when I was still in college I shot a friend's dad's Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 Mag -- an awesome beast at that time. Shot it poorly and it gave me an owee(sp). My friend's sage advice? "It's gonna hurt you anyway so you might as well shoot it straight." I've never been bothered much by recoil since.

Rifle set up is VERY important. Proper LOP, if scoped good eye relief (proper scope set forward), a good pad and the rifle should be of decent weight. In my case, I shot for too many years rifles NOT properly set up and my biggest fear in moving to the bigger calibers was getting wacked with the scope. I can stand the recoil to my body but stay away from my face! Once I set up my rifles properly (and with good technique...NO stock crawling, proper hold, etc.) things seemed to come together.

I used to think my Rem 700 300 Win was a beast. It had too short of LOP and the scope was set too far back and on recoil the scope hit my shooting glasses every time. Now I KNOW my RSM 458 Lott set up right will not hurt me if I do my part (proper rifle control for a bigger rifle).

In mho there is a noticeable change when going from a 375 to a 416. A 400gr@2400+ will recoil more than a 375 300gr@2600. The 375H&H is such a sweetheart round I will always have one or more rifles in this caliber. It is VERY shootable round and in a CZ/RSM a pleasure. My Rigbys are more starchy for sure and require more disipline to shoot well. Upper end Rigby loads (400grs@2500+) are almost the equal of my Lott loads IMO. A word on shooting bigger bores from field positions...make sure you are comfortable with it and then hold the rifle the SAME as you have practiced with. Two years ago on a deer hunt I missed a Mulie as I somehow decided to do a free recoil prone shot with my RSM 416 Rigby. Sure enough my shot was high. The bigger rifles just demand more control and consistency and I was fool enough to ignore it.

For a fun all around rifle the 375 is the ticket. If you want a bigger round and are willing to work up to it the Rigby is a winner. Bigger rifles are fun, but they demand a certain mindset that you WILL learn how to shoot them. My favorite round now is the 458 Lott and I shoot it quite a bit, with my favorite pastime of vaulting ground squirrels.

Buy the rifle you want, shoot the heck out of it and go from there. Many people here have a battery of rifles from 375, 416, 458 and above. Chances are the choice you make now about caliber won't be your last one

John

I've been thinking (not always a good thing)!

Any advantage of the .404 Jeffery over the .416 Rigby, built on the same size action same barrell contour same stock?

Afew grains less powder, same speeds, 2300 to 2400 fps.

In .416 Rigby I can get 4 down with Wiesners floorplate whitch is all I really want. .404 4 maybe 5.

Recoil? If I can't shoot the Rigby I probably can't the Jeffery either, if same exact rifle and at same velocity. 404 mabe a "little" less recoil?

Possibly easer to load the Jeffery down to 2100 -2200 fps? because of Rigbys larger case.

Man I HATE being obsessive. I split hairs to to the point of stupidity.

404 416 404 416 404 416

$- Rigby brass a little more costly, 404 have to rebarrell and new sights, more bullet selection in .416 higher BC & SD in .416. Not that it really would make a difference. sigh...

Thoughts guys?
Allen

Allen, my solution was to buy one of each. My 416 Rigby is a CZ, my 404 is built on a Model 70 action. The 404, in my rifle's configuration, only holds 3 down. My experience shooting both of them (they weigh about the same) is that if you load them to the same muzzle velocity with the same weight bullet they feel the same in terms of recoil when you shoot them. Felt recoil at 2400 or 2500fps, compared to say 2150fps, makes all the difference in the world, at least to me. It's not that easy to get a 404 to shoot 2400fps in my experience, without getting up there in pressure and the things I want in an African caliber are low operating pressure, easy bolt lift, relative immunity from problems due to excessive heat, etc. The 416 has a lot of advantages over the 404 in terms of bullet availability and variety, flexibility for the reloader, existence of factory ammunition and relatively cheap rifles available from CZ and Ruger. It can also be used effectively at much greater ranges with higher velocity and better BC. The 404 is a custom rifle, there is no factory ammo, bullet availability is very restricted, at "African" operating pressures it doesn't have the velocity of the 416s. If you can only buy one, buy the 416 and download it somewhat in the beginning, or forever if that's the recoil level you handle well.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenBosely:
I've been thinking (not always a good thing)!

Any advantage of the .404 Jeffery over the .416 Rigby, built on the same size action same barrell contour same stock?

Afew grains less powder, same speeds, 2300 to 2400 fps.

In .416 Rigby I can get 4 down with Wiesners floorplate whitch is all I really want. .404 4 maybe 5.

Recoil? If I can't shoot the Rigby I probably can't the Jeffery either, if same exact rifle and at same velocity. 404 mabe a "little" less recoil?

Possibly easer to load the Jeffery down to 2100 -2200 fps? because of Rigbys larger case.

Man I HATE being obsessive. I split hairs to to the point of stupidity.

404 416 404 416 404 416

$- Rigby brass a little more costly, 404 have to rebarrell and new sights, more bullet selection in .416 higher BC & SD in .416. Not that it really would make a difference. sigh...

Thoughts guys?
Allen

Just get a 375 and shoot the barrel out.

Thanks Wink,
I was wondering if the .404 worked at "African" pressures @ 2400 fps. I like the low pressure of the Rigby, not that I really "need" it but I like it.

You answerd a few questions I had. I will go with the Rigby as I first planed. Before I got to thinking to much!

The Rigby does seem to have some advantages, at least for me.Better bullet selection, higer BC,simpler as far as getting the rifle its self, Ect..

No one thing is that big of a deal, but when taken all together. The Rigby will I think be the better choice, at least for me.

Thanks everyone for all you input and information. This board has been an unbelivable wealth of information and learning!

I dont post very often because i dont have enough experance to offer anything useful and besides i type so slooow! But I read thru most every day. I really enjoy this board and have learned much.

After I get the Rigby I'll post about my learning expernce shooting and reworking the CZ
and let every one know how it turns out.

Allen

Allen, I don't have ANY experience with Rifles in this class. I am planning to purchase a CZ in 416 Rigby in preparation for a Cape Buff hunt. I did a search here for cast bullet loads for the 416 so that I could start with lower end load and work my way up, and so that I can shoot the (*&) out of it before ever placing my deposit. I think if you do the same search you will find many alternative loads to do your 'breaking in' with. Keep us posted, and I'll do the same. Hope to get mine this fall.

Iuse to have a cz 416 in my company upgraded by Amestoy Hoffman a well known local rifle gunsmith you will not feel the recoil hunting ,i fired this rifle in aftosa controll killing and the only defect is the price of the ammo in my country.juan

quote:

Originally posted by AllenBosely:
Thanks Wink,
I was wondering if the .404 worked at "African" pressures @ 2400 fps. I like the low pressure of the Rigby, not that I really "need" it but I like it.


Allen

Allen, I think the classic Kynoch loads for the 404J with 400gr bullets were more like 2150fps rather than 2400 fps. That said at 2150 my 10.5lbs 1909 Arg M98 is still considerably more of a handful recoil wise than my 9.5lb 375 H&H.

Whoever said it above is right - .416/404 is another class altogether & to me at least substantially more in recoil. I have fired both my 404J and the CZ Rigby (hogback) both scoped one after the other. The Rigby seemed to kick a bit more that the 404 but not much diff between the two. Of course you can really soup up the velocity of the Rigby.

The other consideration is that the Jeffery will fit in a slimmer & shorter package ie M98 or M70 size.

Regards'
JohnT

if you reload, start at 2100 with 400gr, and shoot 40... add a grain.. repeat until you get to 2400...

you won't "know" it kicks anymore that a 35, if you work up to it.

as I've said before, a 416 rigby doesn't kick THAT much more than a 375... and dang if it's not repeatedly confirmed by the shooters

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Indeed, the powder is part of the momentum transfer to the rifle. If one can tell the difference in 20 grains of powder, I bow to their sensitivity.

Bill,
come on down!! I'll show you, in about 10 mins, that anyone can tell... a 416 AR, with ~78gr of powder, in the same weight gun, is FAR less recoil than a 416 rigby, same bullet at 2400 fps, same weight gun.

The taylor, at 2350, is about 3/4 the felt recoil of a rigby at 2400... seriously

jeffe

Jeffesosso, So I would have noticeably less recoil in a 404J as compared to the Rigby?

Even with the same bullet wt. and velocity? In identical guns save for caliber?

Because of less powder?

It would make that much differance?

Here is another question (aint I just full of em?) does pressure affect felt recoil?

ie.. more recoil or faster recoil impulse?

Thats a good idea go up a grain at a time
with a lot of shooting at each increment.

Allen