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One of Us |
I realize this is probably up to who is doing the quoting but I never started thinking about it till recently. Perhaps I was assuming one thing while reading another. When a statement is made that X area or X outfitter is 90% successful on a particular species, say Leopard.... Does that mean that 90% of the allotted quota is shot regardless of how many hunters it takes to do it. Or does it mean 90% of the hunters going there are successful? It seems there could be a huge difference between the two. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | ||
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| One of Us |
Frostbit: First scenario: Assuming the area can sustain the allocated Leopard quota, eg. 5 tags available and all 5 are harvested, the area can be considered as 100% successful as the 5 hunters each took a leopard home. Second scenario: 5 leopard shot with 3 clients successful (60%) but the area still rates 100% as 2 were either missed or wounded/lost; 2 total misses would leave 2 leopard still on quota and can be resold with assumption they are taken (100%) - 2 wounded/lost still counts towards successful quota utilization (100%) and 2 clients out of pocket (and no spots). If the 2 tags go unsold the area has had a utilization of 60% but can still be rated as having 100% success (can't blame the area if the hunter can't hit the target at 40 yds). Third scenario: if it takes more hunters to utilize the quota there's a whole lot of BS going on behind the scenes (IMO)  | |||
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a great point, and a reminder that the consumer (hunter) needs to insist on clarification when a potential ph / booking agent is rattling off their "sales pitch". | |||
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| One of Us |
One cannot help conjuring up images of outfitters at the annual awards ceremony laughing among themselves about quota being sold multiple times. What might the record be for reselling a leopard tag? How about a lion tag? Yes, I know clients are terrible shots and have no eye for game in the bush but sometimes the leopard or lion are simply not there in numbers supporting the issuance of a tag, or in good conscience selling the hunt. How many times has the multiple selling of cat licenses actually made or saved the season for an outfitter? Obviously, in the long term we choose (hopefully) an outfitter based on his body of work or word of mouth, or thru posts on AR. It is AR that I have found to be of immense value to to the travelling hunter regardless of the experience level. Hunt reports are especially valuable IMO. Thanks Saeed!! | |||
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| One of Us |
All true but I never thought about what percentage of success statements meant until now. I don't care if the only leopard tag an outfitter has is resold 10 times. It's my hunt that matters. I just wouldn't want that hunt represented to me as a 100% success rate by an agent or a PH/outfitter. I think if I book a cat hunt especially in the future I will be asking that question specifically. I didn't start this thread because I felt any hunt I bought was misrepresented. I started it because I have seen these percentage figures used more and more frequently in discussion and I wanted an idea of what they actually meant. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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| one of us |
Jim, If I state in an ad that expected success rates should be xx% I mean the client's chances of succes are xx% based on the best information I have available. To state that success rates are xx% based on the number of animals killed of a particular species from the allowable quota is meaningless and deceptive. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Mark hit it dead center. Bye the way Mark, great mule deer buck on the tube the other night. A beauty in every way ! Dave Fulson | |||
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Dave, THX! I thought Tim and crew did a great job in their representation of the farm we hunted. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| One of Us |
So it's more an overall prediction than hard numbers (mathematical equation)? Thanks. I guess that way it's a tool to use for someone when talking with a particular booking agent about multiple areas e.g. if I were told area A has a 90% success rate and area B has a 60% success rate then it gives an overall feel for comparison. It's not hard numbers!! I think I have personally misunderstood that. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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| One of Us |
As an "off shoot" of this topic, as hunters, what do you think about an outfitter that sells more hunts than he has tags, and I am speaking in a proactive manner, i.e. PH-X has 1 lion tag and he sells 4 lion hunts before the first hunt takes place? | |||
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In my opinion, THAT is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, Outfitters will feel vindicated "NOT" shooting lions and can now oversell quota by a larger percentage. In years past perhaps overselling say 6 lions by two, now may go up by a couple more. Just sayin... Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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| One of Us |
Personally, I don't think that should happen. Certainly if you have one leopard (trying to keep lions out of this so it doesn't turn grammar school like so many other threads) on quota and the first hunter in doesn't score then that leopard is available for another hunter and should be booked accordingly. It could be offered to the next in camp as an add on. It could be marketed as a discounted hunt. I suppose there are options. How the heck do you pre-book three leopard hunts when you have one on quota? What do you tell hunter number 2 & 3 when hunter number one plugs it? ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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"An Outfitter" in the Selous, sells 21 day safaris. They all come with a sable in your "full" bag. Hunter xx shows up and is told there are no Sable left with your lion hunting adventure WTF? Somebodies got some splannin to do. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Andrew, to his credit, asked me if I wanted Roan during my Lion/Leopard. I suppose he is carefully planning his quota. He certainly does things the right way in my opinion. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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What if PH-X is up front with those booking the 4 hunts to the extent that he tells them chance of success is around 30%? | |||
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| One of Us |
I would jump on that roan opportunity, everywhere else you pay a "classic" area fee of I think 6,000.00 just to hunt them. but please verify this. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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To all their own, I wouldn't book it. If I'm pre-arranging airfare, time off, etc. I want the opportunity at my target animal maximized. Good area, good PH, and certainly the freakin animal on quota. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Plan on it. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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one of us |
One would think if a PH is doing this, at some point, this tactic will come to the surface and see the light. At that point, the PH would suffer his own greed and get what he has coming. I certainly book a hunt with a PH with this type of reputation. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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| One of Us |
You may be surprised that some of the more "prestigious" outfitters do this every season, particularly on the animals that have very limited quota and historically low success rate. | |||
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| one of us |
He's a crook! How would you like to be the PH that has to ride the clients around hoping to God that an obviously shootable lion does not show itself during the 3 ensuing safaris. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| One of Us |
Overselling quota can and does happen. It happens in TZ with regularity. While I have no problem with reselling quota that wasn't used, overselling quota is a major problem to me. I want no part of one of those hunts . Regarding success ratio, you owe it to yourself to inquire exactly how it was calculate. Do not assume you know. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's why I started he thread. You can bet if a PH, Outfitter, or booking agent gives me a % claim in the future I will ask some very detailed questions. Like I said if it's to compare one area to another that a booking agent represents that's one thing. But if I hear there's a 100% success rate then that better mean short of a earthquake I will get an opportunity at the primary target. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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| One of Us |
I have the same issues, obviously, when an outfit quotes percentages. 90% means that 9 out of ten 10 hunters killed a lion/buff/leopard/whatever in that concession with that outfit in the past 10 hunts. How could it mean anything else? Math is math, percentages are easy to calculate. It is much like a batting average in baseball. It is also a quantitative indicator of how many animals are available. | |||
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| One of Us |
Just got back from Cameroon. Jeff Neal, agent, told me to expect a shot at a bongo, mostly 90+%. Same for duikers that are called. I wanted to take forest sitatunga and my son a dwarf buff as well with a giant forest hog thrown in for good measure. He said - sitatunga success is about 10%, same for buff and hogs are purely luck of being in the right place at the right time. His percentages were dead on for bongo - every hunter there this year had a shot and 11 of 12 killed bongo. One hog was taken, one sitatunga taken, one buff taken. I counted what was in the skinning shed. I also like the way Wendell Reich describes his hunts - he offers a "reason expectation based on past experience with the area and PH". There are no guarantees but percentages should be backed up by numbers when possible. PS - we did get a forest sitatunga, sort of. Wait an read the hunt report -  | |||
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| One of Us |
I have discovered that a lot of the % quoted in the states are based on "shot opportunities".....which may be out of your comfort zone on range or not the trophy size you desired....buyer beware of statistics! | |||
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One of Us |
When checking references, how about asking for contact details of every single client of the previous season or current time of booking. It would be interesting to compare the information from each client in terms of what was claimed & delivered. JMTBW from armchair Bwana "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I would second requiring CURRENT references and CURRENT pictures. | |||
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One of Us |
This is fraud. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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| One of Us |
agreed, yet people continue to book, even after PH-X is fairly open about this practice. | |||
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One of Us |
Why don't you just tell us who you are speaking of then all can check it out to see if you allegations are correct. Mark may be able to verify or disprove and Fairgame might know them too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Why make an allegation against a specific individual if you do not know it is true? | |||
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Oh...my mistake...I thought you had said above that the PH was open about doing it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
If I had wanted to include a name, would I have referred to the person I was thinking as PH-X? Don't be a rabblerouser Lane, this isn't the beauty parlor.  | |||
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Chaps, You two have a problem with each other and it would be difficult to find space to make fair comment here. And this would apply to some other posts that I had a look at on my return. Much of your quarrel here can easily be conducted over the phone. Let us get back to PH-X and the dubious retail business of his Lion. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I personally dislike "shot opportunity" % most of all... When I once booked a "discounted because of cancellation" hunt in TAN, Gerenuk and Buffalo were on it, after I had committed and bought non-refundable airfare, I was told Gerenuk were no longer available. Two days after camp arrival, my PH got a call advising Buffalo were no longer available....I had a great hunt and took some great animals only available in TAN but I was not particularly pleased.....esp after seeing at least three record book Gerenuks and a lone Buff at 60yds estimated to be at least 45"..... | |||
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Brad, If you got something to say just spit it out...no need to beat around the bush. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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glad you had a good trip, but this sounds like a screwing. | |||
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I did, perhaps you should heed your own advice. | |||
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If the PH has been "open" (your words) about over selling quota...show some proof...like point to the thread or something. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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