Ndumo game reserve invaded
2010-10-01 09:25



Dries Liebenberg, Beeld
iDurban - Game rangers were chased from their outpost after which their camp was damaged and a suspension bridge destroyed in the Ndumo game reserve in the north of KwaZulu-Natal last week.

According to Radley Keys, DA spokesperson for environmental affairs in KwaZulu-Natal, the two incidents on Monday and Friday last week are attempts to allow land invasions to continue unimpeded in the eastern part of this park of international importance.

Conservation circles were abuzz on Thursday, warning that this state of affairs could have serious implications for South Africa in the international community.

Ndumo's flood basin wetlands, similar to those of the Okavango, have been given international conservation status according to the Ramsar agreement. They also form part of the proposed Lubombo Transfrontier Park which South Africa is involved in along with Mozambique and Swaziland.

Bush cleared for farming

All the game in the eastern part of the reserve has already been destroyed, the crocodiles Ndumo is famous for have left the area, and the bush is being cleared unhindered to make space for farming plots, said Keys after he and other members of the KwaZulu-Natal legislator's portfolio committee for agriculture and conversation visited the area last week.

"It's a crisis. There's total anarchy," said Keys.

The invasion of this part of Ndumo, east of the Pongola River, comes as a result of a land claim which was awarded to local residents in 2000.

However, nothing came of government's promises of agricultural assistance outside the park, Keys said. Then, in 2008, people chopped down 20km of Ndumo's eastern border fence.

According to an informed source, the land invasions are also related to the influx of people from Mozambique. The border between these two countries splits the Tonga tribe in two.

If the eastern part of Ndumo is lost for conservation, it places the future of the whole reserve in danger," Keys said.

Well-known game conservationist Dr Ian Player says this reserve is one of the most important bird-watching destinations in Southern Africa.

Suspension bridge destroyed

Last Friday, after a tourist was confronted, a group of people destroyed a suspension bridge across the Pongola River which lends access to the east of the park, Keys said.

On Monday a group of people attacked the game guards' outpost at the Mpholwe pan. The game guards were chased away before the buildings were damaged.

Police were called in to patrol the area after this incident, but as far as he knows, no charges were laid, said police spokesperson Jay Naicker.

Lydia Johnson, MEC for environmental affairs, condemned this "criminal behaviour". She is worried that it might hamper talks with local communities to find a solution for the problems surrounding the land claim.



- Beeld

And South Africa wants to bid for the 2020 Summer Olympics....good luck with this level of civil disorder.

And the savages prove once again to be savages!!

That is why I keep telling everyone who wishes to hunt Africa to go right now.

Because one never knows what might be happening next year.

What a sad situation.

I used to love ZIM, then I loved SA, now I love ZAM....hope I am not a curse!!

This is the beginning of Zim disease in RSA. Other ominous sign: the minister of agric says game farms should be put to more productive use, hunting is a rich white man's game like golf. The land could be better utilized raising corn or potatoes, according to the minister.

In 10 years, 90% of the private game farms in RSA will be gone. Just like Zim.

What a shame! A beautiful place in S.A., and it is heartbreaking to know what is happening to it!

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
What a shame! A beautiful place in S.A., and it is heartbreaking to know what is happening to it!

A beautiful place you can say again. As place with great memories for me; as in 1970 I spent most of my honeymoon there!

Unfortunately it is us [that is the collective plural and anonymous 'we'] who asked for this type of thing to happen! 'We', through our elected governments, threatened South Africa with sanctions if a ‘one man one vote’ election was not soon to be held. ‘We’ staged mass demonstrations in support for the terrorist savages who were planting and detonating bombs in Church Street Pretoria and MacGooses' Bar and churches many other places killing and maiming innocent people in the name of "The Struggle". 'We' voted "Yes" in 1984 to hand the country over to the savages as was mentioned by Aaron.

Now that very self same 'we' are very unsatisfied with the end result of our actions. Fact is that the self same savage terrorists that 'we' supported and voted for are now the ineffectual ANC government who is, to quote a brilliant AR signature, “...unable to rise to mediocrity …” and allows such invasions to happen. Shame on us!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

May be you should have asked your grandparents why they did not hand over civil rights before 1948!

What have Europeans achieved in Africa after 500 years of plunder? Were they all very genteel "civilized" Christians doing God's service for the blacks? I doubt that the black indigenous people could do a fraction of the damage even in a 1000 years.....there is a very small fraction left.

quote:

This is the beginning of Zim disease in RSA. Other ominous sign: the minister of agric says game farms should be put to more productive use, hunting is a rich white man's game like golf. The land could be better utilized raising corn or potatoes, according to the minister.

In 10 years, 90% of the private game farms in RSA will be gone. Just like Zim.

Russ, that statement is not accurate.

The area in question is an area that has been in a state of conflict for hundreds of years. It holds no sway on the political process other than to give subjective reporters something to chew on. The people there are still very primitive and actually would be more of a thorn in the flesh of the Zulu based ANC leadership there as they are not to be controlled nor have they in the centuries of bloody conflict

The way the story is written does not reflect the reality of the situation. Land invasions come and then stay, this is far more likely to be a tribal dispute than anything else.
As for the crocodiles and game not being on the flood plains, it could have a lot to do with the fact that they are in the grip of a terrible drought. All of the crocks and hippos have moved into the remaining pools and are taking refuge. It is the same in Hluhluwe Umfolozi where all the crocks and Hippos are in Hluhluwe Dam. Grazing disputes are nothing new and will be dealt with as usual. Not newsworthy other than for some cockroach reporter trying to fuel the fire.

Now watch this space, when a real conservationist like Dr Ian Player has more to say than, " Its an important bird watching destination" then take heed. But short of that its not worth the paper its written on.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
May be you should have asked your grandparents why they did not hand over civil rights before 1948!

What have Europeans achieved in Africa after 500 years of plunder? Were they all very genteel "civilized" Christians doing God's service for the blacks? I doubt that the black indigenous people could do a fraction of the damage even in a 1000 years.....there is a very small fraction left.

I am not going to get too excited here, I hope. I have issues with your comments Andrew, big issues. But at least you are an African and more entitled to an opinion about Africa than nakihunter, whom I'm sure has absolutely no clue about Africa.

Nakihunter, spout off all you like about Africa in general, I don't give a damn. But I advise you to keep your opinions about one little African country between the Limpopo and Zambezi (check your atlas) in check, because I have no doubt that I will shred that opinion on this forum. My forefathers, working alongside black Zimbabweans, built this country into what it once was. Generations later, we get on just fine with most all of this country's inhabitants - black, white, Shangaan, Shona, Tonga....

The real savages are the clueless liberal first worlders who are doing such a fine job of destroying Africa by pandering to evil dictators and doing nothing to help the average African do something for himself, as they send in another load of food aid to be SOLD by their African representatives to the hungry masses.

Come and join me for a few weeks on the Borderline walk and I will show you real Africa and real Africans. And try to avoid being brainwashed further by all the crap you read in the media and 'history' books.

Here in Zimbabwe, the new independent government did more damage to this country in months than the colonials did in 100 years. This is what most of my black friends tell me anyway.....

I am so sick of hearing about what 'did' happen or what might have happened. Can't we just move forward? I guess we never will with all the close-mindedness, on both sides of the fence.

I have no opinion on New Zealand.

Have good day, David

Well put Dave.

Scott Hayman

David, excellent reply!!
My family has first hand experience of Africa at work, but I wont go into detail as there are far too many sad stories.
Nakihunter before you ever decide to reply on this forum about things you have no knowledge of or first hand experience of, think very very carefully about what you post.

Dear Naki as I have said before, you really do not have a clue. If you wish to educate yourself try call up the Daily Dispatch and read a little of what is actually taking place with a terrorist "government" running matters into the ground.
After 500 years of plunder, schools, hospitals, roads,were up and running, and all is being run into the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
May be you should have asked your grandparents why they did not hand over civil rights before 1948!

What have Europeans achieved in Africa after 500 years of plunder? Were they all very genteel "civilized" Christians doing God's service for the blacks? I doubt that the black indigenous people could do a fraction of the damage even in a 1000 years.....there is a very small fraction left.

I think black African rule has done more damage to African countries than has been done by the occupying powers before.

There is absolutely no doubt in mind mind about this whatsoever.

I stopped posting in the political forum a while back as it was a waste of time trying to have an intelligent debate with idiots. This part of AR is different and I genuinely respect people here.....so

1. I have said before, that I get pissed off with ethnocentric and Eurocentric comments here. Such comments should be made in the political forum. JMHO.
2. I believe in loving God and then my fellow human beings. I believe in human rights and in treating others with respect. So I get pissed off when terms like "savages" are used for one type of social unrest while the GWBs & Tony Blairs wage unjustified wars and destroy lives of millions of civilians - with no end in sight.
3. I respect Andrew's position on ethical fair chase hunting & have corresponded with him by email before. But I do not respect his views above. In fact I am surprised by them.
4. For those who feel that I should not post about Africa and that I need to read up more ....my reply is that I am human citizen of the world just as you are. I have been well educated in history, sociology & politics - I am well aware of the various achievements of Colonialism. Please read different perspectives of history & not just the Western one. You will see that for every school, hospital and road built, many generation were brutalised. This is true not just of the West but of any invading civilization. In South Africa, many tribes were forcibly relocated from their historical homes so that land could be allocated to the minority in power. This happened even in the 1960s & 70s. How come no one has mentioned this savagery? What do you expect from such communities who have inherited such a hopeless situation? Do you expect them to thank you for the schools or do you expect them to want to get back their ancestral home / land? Keep in mind that Germany just finish paying last month the last part (about $100 million) towards the penalties it was levied as a result of its FIRST WW aggression!! What reparation will be paid to all the other tribal communities with no written history?
5. I am NOT a "Liberal" like some assume. I do not believe that the "liberal versus conservative" categorization is even relevant in today's world, including the US. Our plural society is far more complex than just a simple separation based on 200 year old philosophy from a very small part of the world.
6. David, you and your family are to be commended. Yes I would love to walk with you on those historical trecks you write about and I have said so before in your threads. But that is not the history of Africa. As I said earlier, the evils of Colonialism are as savage if not worse than anything we see now. In fact the current social unrest is a direct result of such colonial excess. It is not pretty, it not good, it is not right. But that is what it is. We fool ourselves if we do not recognise and learn these lessons from history.
7. Again - just look at history and read up on anthropological research. Every tribal society in the world - be it in Africa, South America, North America, Australia or Asia - has been exploited by others who had a feudal or capitalistic system. The Industrial revolution left an even bigger gap in cultural, social and technological paradigms. To expect such tribal societies to just accept what has been forced on them is naive.
8. I agree with Saeed to some degree - much of Africa is not well governed. But you also see improvements in many parts of Africa. Various NGOs have started recognising new African owned businesses which are becoming competitive in the global market. Countries like China, Brazil & India have made huge progress in the last 30 years. So will Africa.

My suggestion to those who want to rant again...please try and learn a new language from a different continent (Not just within the Colonial environment). Try and speak it, understand its poetry, family folklore & ties etc. Then you might begin to have a better understanding of social issues that are not compatible with yours. To understand those issues is to be human (NOT liberal).

Dear Naki, when you can speak the language, understand the poetry [?],have knowledge of customs, etc,etc. I can speak isiXhosa, and have worked with the folk of this part of the world for most of my adult life [rapidly approaching 60] after a liberal education in New Zealand. I have taken time to learn the history of this part of the world and continue to take an interest in the history unfolding before my eyes, and man, you still do not have a clue.

What are the causes and what are the reasons? Please note that the cause and the reason may not be the same! You may know the language and culture but do you appreciate the real problems since you are still looking at it from a colonial perspective! You cannot offer a colonial solution to a tribal civilization and expect them to accept it happily. It is as simple as that. The same goes in the middle east - where the west is trying to offer a colonial solution to an Arab environment that is far more complex than the West understands.

I see this in so many other societies including NZ. People here with a Colonial perspective still keep blaming the Maori without understanding their own perspective. It is a small step in logic then to claim that indigenous people are somehow inferior to the colonials......This some how become a moral high ground & a cultural high ground of savages versus civilized people.

I wish some one would list the 100 most savage acts in the last 100 years and see who the real "savages" are!

Had a great hunt in this area in 2006. Sounds like we all should avoid this area like the plague now.

Maybe I'll hunt someplace safer like Zim

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nakihunter:
6. David, you and your family are to be commended. Yes I would love to walk with you on those historical trecks you write about and I have said so before in your threads. But that is not the history of Africa. As I said earlier, the evils of Colonialism are as savage if not worse than anything we see now. In fact the current social unrest is a direct result of such colonial excess. [QUOTE]

Sir with all due respect , you are talking crap.
I can assure you that the horrors and tragedy brought about by Mugabe and his henchmen against their own people have nothing whatsoever to do with colonialism. It is about power , pure and simple.If you beleive otherwise of this conflict or of the vast majority of many other African conflicts, then quite frankly you simply do not know or choose not to accept the facts.Zimbabweans white and black are facing the same trials and the vast majority of them are on the same side of good.

Davids comment about seeing and meeting the real people on his borderline walks was intended I believe to show that we are in fact all the same and that the effect of colonialism is and has long since been forgotten by the vast majority of free living Africans, myself included.The real problems facing Zimbabwe today are simply about power and greed. Colonialism is simply an excuse to hide behind. Whilst we have bleeding hearts like yourself, The likes of RG Mugabe will be able play on your heart strings about the evils of the past and how badly they were treated......whilst at the same time murdering thousands of his own people .......or is that the fault of colonialism too.....put blame where it is due and stop looking at the past to explain current evils.

You talk about languages and poetry, I speak Shona, Ndebele and understand Shangaan better than most. I learnt those languages because they were spoken by those around me and to converse fluently is respectful in this pat of the world.

With the exception of South Africa , most of Africa has been free of colonial rule for over 20 years. The Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, Angola, Uganda, Ethiopia, The Sudan, Somalia ........go on blame Colonialism for the diamond conflict in central Africa, or the the civil war in the Congo.....all of which occurred many years after the demise of colonialism. Am I to beleive that it is not PC to call someone who murders 200 people in a village a Savage, simply because he lived once in a country under Colonial rule. How far do we go back then good sir?? Are Charles Manson or Ted Bundy not savages because the British once ruled America?? No they are Savages because of their actions , pure and simple.

Finally, I would love to hear your opinion on another form of Colonialism. The Zulu ruled most of Southern Africa and the offshoot from that tribe was the Ndebele who ruled most of what is now Zimbabwe. African folklore itself tells of the washing of spears and the earth running red with the blood of their victims. This was long before the white man and his colonies.
Now tell me again that 200 years of white colonialism in Africa is the cause of Africas woes. I have a very good and long time friend, who is black and who is a Professor of African history. He will tell you quite simply that "Colonialism gave and took away, it was fleeting. Tribalism is African, and its shadow will live violently in Africa forever."

I will say again
You are talking crap

(IMO) ZimFrosty has it dead right when he quotes his friend as saying "Colonialism gave and took away, it was fleeting. Tribalism is African, and its shadow will live violently in Africa forever.".

However,(although he seems to have missed his own point) Nakihunter also raises the excellent point that Africa's current woes will never be fixed with western solutions and as I see it, the sooner all the NGOs, western governments and God squad do gooders etc all f**k off home and take all their ridiculous good intentions, hare brained schemes and rose tinted spectacles home with them, the better.

The truth is they do far more long term harm than good. - In fact, I think they're a useless bunch of tossers that don't do any f**king good at all.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
(IMO) ZimFrosty has it dead right when he quotes his friend as saying "Colonialism gave and took away, it was fleeting. Tribalism is African, and its shadow will live violently in Africa forever.".

However,(although he seems to have missed his own point) Nakihunter also raises the excellent point that Africa's current woes will never be fixed with western solutions and as I see it, the sooner all the NGOs, western governments and God squad do gooders etc all f**k off home and take all their ridiculous good intentions, hare brained schemes and rose tinted spectacles home with them, the better.

The truth is they do far more long term harm than good. - In fact, I think they're a useless bunch of tossers that don't do any f**king good at all.

quote:

Sir with all due respect , you are talking crap

quote:

Sir with all due respect , you are talking crap.

NakiHunter
Just as a matter of interest, how much time have you spent in Africa, or indeed in the middle East ????? Must be years and years for you to have formed such an in depth and profound view on the evils of Colonialism in those parts of the world.
And by the way, I choose to learn languages from my own part of the world as well as local folklore and tradition. My interests lie in learning and being part of my own enviroment, rather than passing comments and judgements on countries and histories of which I have had no personal experience.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
(IMO) ZimFrosty has it dead right when he quotes his friend as saying "Colonialism gave and took away, it was fleeting. Tribalism is African, and its shadow will live violently in Africa forever.".

However,(although he seems to have missed his own point) Nakihunter also raises the excellent point that Africa's current woes will never be fixed with western solutions and as I see it, the sooner all the NGOs, western governments and God squad do gooders etc all f**k off home and take all their ridiculous good intentions, hare brained schemes and rose tinted spectacles home with them, the better.

The truth is they do far more long term harm than good. - In fact, I think they're a useless bunch of tossers that don't do any f**king good at all.

+1

Naki, do you honestly believe in the pile of dribble you spouted?
Its quite sad that an obviously well educated person can believe these views.

What is happening in most African countries right now is all about a grab for personal wealth and power and has f%@#k all to do with the results of the excesses of colonialism. I doubt if any of the politicians with their hands in the cookie jar could even spell the word. They use Apartheid and Colonialism as excuses and the rest of the world lets them get away with it. Is Bob not one of the wealthiest men in the world? To say Africa is not well governed is like saying Hitler had some small issues!!!

You talk about savagery.....you have no idea until you witness what an African is capable of doing to his fellow African, no idea what so ever.

You really need to open your eyes and forget what you have read in textbooks.

Gentleman

I think the point is the age old problem of theory and practice.One can sit in a westernized cold country overseas and read a lot of opinions of the so-called historians or politicians. But to really understand you have to experience the situation.Often people with very strong principles quickly change their minds when they experience it first hand. I have read the books of Bell, Selous, Capstick and PJ Schoeman. But believe you me,the first time I experienced a tusk less cow in the jess, hunting took on a complete new meaning for me.Be careful to be prejudice on another mans opinion, for every man has another angle.

May I please request people not to swear at me even with special characters. Let us be respectful & civil about this honest debate.

Most of you are still stuck in a white colonial mind set. Just because you live there and speak the language does not mean that you have a tribal mindset. Yes you are honest, decent and good people but you are clouded by your colonial myths and history. You are still protecting the European way of life and not the African way of life. Yes the Euro- African way of life is what matters to you now. I understand that it is a matter of survival and protecting what is your identity. You expect the natives to think & become like you and some how feel that that is the "right & better way".

The Zulu rule was NOT colonialism. It was tribal rule all the way. It was not feudalism & capitalism replacing tribal way of life but just one tribe dominating the other as has happened for thousands of years. Colonialism and its evil was seen when the Apartheid regime turned the Zulus against the rest by creating artificial homelands with differences in privileges. The results of those modern policies are still being felt. Most of you still do not get it. The tribal way of life is destroyed and the conflicts that result cannot be resolved by European schools & hospitals. Yes Mugabe is a monster but created by the colonial system. He is not a tribal. Yes it is about power and greed & evil - again not from the traditional tribal system but from a post colonial system. Yes they now use tribal loyalties to survive but that is not the tribal society but a modern corruption that is totally dysfunctional.

Yes population explosion is a real problem. If you did some sociological research you will find that it is direct consequence of forcibly changing the way of life of a civilization. When nomads settled in a river valley their population exploded. When the Australian aborigines became urbanised, their population exploded in the towns but not in the outback. The same goes for the Samoan, Tongan & other Pacific island communities. There are more Samoans now living in NZ & Australia than in Samoa! All this change happened in less than 50 years! Now you have people with a tribal mindset & way of living but without the skills, tools or ability to live successfully in the urban alien world. It is now starting to happen in parts of Mongolia & Tibet. With global warming it will surely happen in Siberia.

Yes Ted Bundy was a monster. Just read my post again - my objection is to people stereo typing some people as savages with often an ethnic bias. Which of you has the understanding & awareness to call GWB, Chaney & Blaire as savages when they opposed the rest of the civilized world including France & Germany and went on the war path that has destroyed so many innocent civilians for generations to come? How many of you or your ancestors fought for human rights of the natives in Africa 20, 30 or 80 years ago? Yes you are proud that they fought for Britain. No it was the same story then - grab power, money, gold, land etc. and oppress the natives.

Yes some of you now see the Zim situation as all being on the same side. Were you on the same side 30 years ago or 50 years ago? Yes it is not good for people's farms and properties to be invaded and taken away at gun point. But some how it was ok to do that to the natives 30 to 100 years ago! See my original post - it was in reaction to Andrew's rant about voting for universal franchise. Are you still saying that the natives are not equal to you as human being?

I find it amazing that some of you can claim that your, your parents' and grand parents' generation was some how less savage & less responsible for the current mess.

Human conflict sometimes forces an equilibrium of win-win or lose-lose - in the case of Zim you are all now on the same side only because of Mugabe & his evil. If not for such evil, there would be a bigger chasm between the natives and the Europeans. Ian Smith did not look for a win-win solution and neither are some of you today. A real sad state of affairs.

The colonial mindset is to take advantage of the native and replace their way of life with an alien one. Nothing has changed.

Nakihunter, why did you leave your country of origin?

To add value and contribute to other as well as myself and my family Ann.

That is called entrepreneurship! Big risks involved!

Now...what is the point of your question?

Naki how is it that you are equating tribalism with european civilization, I have often heard your arguments and still fail to see how starving to death or dying of measles is a noble thing. Tribalism is by definition us against everybody else. Civilization is finding common grounds for different peoples to co-exist. Yes this commonly means some form of commerce, which seems better than killing the men ,raping the women and hualing off what we dont burn. The evil west may not be to your fancy but has saved millions more lives than any other scheme of living.

SSR

Cross L

The view that tribal people were poor and died of disease before the colonials saved them is a fallacy. If you look at the history of most colonized people you will see that the invaders / settlers brought in deadly diseases as well. Many of the civilizations decimated by small pox, cholera, measles etc. were a result of disease from cooler climates being brought to warmer areas in the middle ages and later. Yes tropical diseases also were carried back to the cooler climates.

Tribes did not starve to death in isolation. Yes they went through cycles of climatic seasonal changes of drought famine etc. However they did starve to death when they were forcibly restricted to reservations and forced to adapt to a new way of life that was alien to them. A hunter gatherer tribe cannot become a farming or an industrial society for many generation let alone do that successfully. No they just cannot change over in one or two or three generations. Yes individuals can succeed but not the whole society.

I would like to correct you on a few issues Sir. Firstly I did not equate European civilization with tribalism. Secondly tribalism is not defined by "us versus them" . Tribal societies are based on complex kinship and other social rules and structures. There are rituals and rules for organizing clans sub clans & families. Who can marry & cannot marry whom, what is the definition of incest across generations, etc. There are also strong traditions of gift exchange related to various ceremonies. What gift to whom means what etc. For example it would be an offense for me to give a "saree" to a another man's wife or even to my sister -in-law. Even in war there were rules & rituals. It is feudal & capitalist societies (colonial) which have a "us & them" boundary. European colonials have integrated well in South America but not so in Africa. In South Africa it is said that "the Indians were not white enough then and are not black enough now!"

Where the Europeans colonized other feudal societies like in Asia, the socialization process worked both ways. English became a global language in less than 100 years and absorbed many words from the colonies. For example the word "jungle" is from India as are many words in the English language. Mathematics with the use of "zero" came to the west (Einstein said so). Today India is the largest English speaking country in the world. So working together & interacting happened where civilizations had their own systems that could not be replaces and uprooted completely by the colonials. Tribal civilizations do not have that kind of robust and permanent structure and are easily disrupted and destroyed. The native Americans are a good example as well.

In other words tribal civilizations did not have the mechanism to survive the industrial revolution. It has taken over 300 years for Asian feudal societies to become industrialized and that has not happened to a very high degree yet. Yes China, India, Malaysia etc. are now emerging industrial societies but they still have a large part of the feudal elements still operating in the rural areas. This results in serious contradictions and social conflict.

It is worth understanding that Western Europeans (including the US, Canada, Australia, NZ) are a very small part of the world's 6 billion people. The world is a very big place if we want to really look around.

Nakihunter,

If you want people to stop swearing at you then stop talking so much shit. All your posts reaffirm what I stated in my first post - you are clueless about Africa, a wannabee know it all. You are completely wrong when you say we are 'stuck in a white colonial mindset.' What gives you the right to judge the rest of our mindsets? Talk about generalization!! Don't lump everyone into the category YOU want them to be in. And you persist in harping on about how educated you are. Ridiculous.

If you read frosty's post properly, you will see that he suggested Zulu rule was a form of colonialism - he equated it to colonialism, he didn't say it was colonialism. What we do know is that it was murder, mayhem, tyranny.... I suppose you'll argue that as well, in your never-ending quest to defend the poor, oppressed black Africans?

Know this pal - I do have a tribal mindset, I belong to the white tribe of Africa and am very proud of it. I do not have any beef with any other tribe, it is only people like you who cause tension between different ethnic groups. If we didn't have to contend with all the do-gooder 'feel sorry for ourselves because we are white' crap from people like you, life would be a lot easier for everyone.

"You expect the natives to think & become like you and some how feel that that is the "right & better way".

Ha ha ha ha. You write dung like this and want us to take you seriously? Request us not to swear at you? Get this - we don't want anyone to be like us, they never can be. We are proud of who we are, as every people should be.

'Most of you still do not get it.'

No, you don't get it and you probably never will, because you will forever be stuck in the 'feeling sorry for myself, blame the past' mindset.

My family arrived in the lowveld of then Rhodesia in 1918, followed shortly afterward by the Whittall family. When the land invasions began in the year 2000, the locals backed us and they still do. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

How dare you look for excuses for the actions of murderers, shame on you.

I like to think I would not have supported the Rhodesian Front had I been of age, but I do know that they did 1000 times less damage to this country than what the present regime has managed in much less time.

'Yes population explosion is a real problem. If you did some sociological research you will find that it is direct consequence of forcibly changing the way of life of a civilization. When nomads settled in a river valley their population exploded. When the Australian aborigines became urbanised, their population exploded in the towns but not in the outback. The same goes for the Samoan, Tongan & other Pacific island communities. There are more Samoans now living in NZ & Australia than in Samoa! All this change happened in less than 50 years! Now you have people with a tribal mindset & way of living but without the skills, tools or ability to live successfully in the urban alien world. It is now starting to happen in parts of Mongolia & Tibet. With global warming it will surely happen in Siberia.'

Blah, blah - so it's the colonials fault that Africans can't stop themselves from breeding like rabbits? It's called responsibility buddy - nothing to do with anybody else how many kids one decides to have or not have. If you can't afford to feed them, don't have them. No wonder this continent is in such a mess - always blaming everyone/everything else for all its woes and being backed to the hilt by liberal first world ignorance. Your chirping reminds me of a London born and bred greenie who chains himself to a tree and bleats about how we should stop shooting OUR 'endangered' elephants. No plan, no plan at all....

I warned you to buckle your beak regarding Zim.....Who took the natives farms at gunpoint here 30 to 100 years ago? What drivel. THERE WERE NO FARMS HERE BEFORE THE COLONIALS CAME. Only a few scared shitless Shonas skulking in their caves hiding from the rampaging Matabeles. Matter of fact, The Shona tribe owes its very survival to the colonials who thought that their systematic slaughter by the Matabele was not quite cricket and put an end to it. Did you know that 80% of the Rhodesian army were black volunteers? With all your education, did you know this naki?


'I find it amazing that some of you can claim that your, your parents' and grand parents' generation was some how less savage & less responsible for the current mess.'

You do not have enough knowledge of me or my forefathers to find anything about me/them 'amazing'. Furthermore, I claim nothing about my family, I state it.



'Human conflict sometimes forces an equilibrium of win-win or lose-lose - in the case of Zim you are all now on the same side only because of Mugabe & his evil. If not for such evil, there would be a bigger chasm between the natives and the Europeans. Ian Smith did not look for a win-win solution and neither are some of you today. A real sad state of affairs'

Some more dung here. Race relations here were never as bad as you'd like them to have been, or as you'd like the rest of the world to believe they were/are. You seem disappointed that there is not a bigger chasm between the natives and Europeans, wonder why that would be? FYI, we like to refer to ourselves as Zimbabweans, not Europeans or natives. Yeah, I speak for my black buddies too.

I am not going to swear at you, just advise you to go and tend your sheep or something. On the way down to the sheep pen, try and find a life and stop concerning yourself with the lives of others in other lands. We don't need your considerably less than two cents worth - biased and uninformed opinion has caused more grief here than anything else. Deal with your own hassles, we'll deal with ours. I don't care if you are an educated man of the world or whatever. If you feel the need to save black Africa from the savage whites, why don't you write an article or two for the Zimbabwe herald. They would be sure to accept anything you wrote, because they are just as clueless as you.

God knows why I bother responding to your posts. Your mind is made up and will never change, regardless of what more informed/experienced fellows say. I have met your type before - one-tracked and a danger to society. You are far more close-minded than any colonial who ever lived.

One final chirp....Neither I nor my family feel the need to be 'commended' by you or anyone else. We have just been living our lives in the land we love, simply that. We did not steal anyone's farms at gunpoint, murder the locals or anything else you would like us to have done in order to justify your ridiculous stance.

David Hulme - proud African without a chip, living today, not yesteryear.

The invitation to join us (my black buddy and I) on the walk still stands.

Bye, David

David thanks the passionate but restrained response.

The specific issues you have with me must be seen in the light the other posts. I am trying to address Zim, SA and other members who posted earlier. 30 to 50 years ago farms were occupied in SA. In many cases it was not farms but it was property. Entire villages and tribes were resettled far away form their ancestral homes. This is no secret and very well documented as you know.

Murder & plunders happened all through world history. Yes SA used the Zulus & IFP to target the ANC & the ANC were no angels either. But my point is that those are the consequences of oppression & tyranny. People will revolt in anger and this will be impossible to control or moderate. To condemn one & not the other is being one-eyed.

My comments about "most of you" referred to some posters who took umbrage to my earlier comments without understanding the issue from both sides. You might be an exception.

Yes I have a right to speak out about ethnocentric prejudice.

No I do not want you to feel sorry for yourself. Just don't blame it all on the black. Take some responsibility yourself and your earlier generations. To make Ian Smith into a hero is as bad as calling Mugabe a hero. To not acknowledge that Smith's policies were divisive and oppressive and a major CAUSE of today's mess is to be dilutional.

I never condoned Mugabe. I just point out that he is a consequence of historical mistakes. Would your current situation have been so bad if Mugabe had not been isolated so much by the west? Would China have got such a strong hold in ZIM? No I do not wish that the division between the Zim whites & blacks was worse as you suggested. However someone else did allude to it in their post.

Thanks for the offer for the walk. I would sincerely lover to accept it some day.

Believe me I do respect your views and wish you well. Sorry if I upset you in any way. That is not my intention. I am just passionate about accurate history. I find it so rich and meaningful when understood from all perspectives rather than just ones own.

Naki

Thank you for illustrating to us all what the mindset is of all who choose to fight for the sake of fighting, to find every mole hill and to turn it into a mountain and to fight for every cause that is presented to you, because like a sheep you will eat any grass that is fed to you. Stop reading papers and get your feet covered in some African dust. When you have walked a few miles in Africa then with your shoes in one hand and your cap in the other you may try and find a real solution to the problems.

You have given us a first hand education on what our self declared enemies the "Anti Hunter"and "Greenie" use as their modus opperandi. The dissemination of false information written in a convincing way by absolute quacks and fed to the sprouting minds of a deprived youth that just love a bit of shit in the morning.

David, thank you. I really do enjoy your writing.

Ian
Are you saying that the Apartheid regime was a heroic regime? Are you saying that it was good for the blacks?

I do not understand the relevance of the Greenies and anti hunters here. I may not have walked in Africa but believe me I have walked many, many miles in bush, mountains, dust, rain, under hot sun & under the stars. Yes I have been with tribal people and slept in their huts and eaten their food.

I am an arm-chain bwana as far as Africa is concerned but I am not a library nerd! My human spirit truly understands the smell of dust, the scratch of thorns and the sticky feel of sweat.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
That is why I keep telling everyone who wishes to hunt Africa to go right now.

Because one never knows what might be happening next year.

What a sad situation.

Unfortunately true.
How long did hunting last in India after the English left?
I should think Its a similar situation.

Good point Oz. About 25 years. Population explosion and loss of habitat just finished it. Today the national parks are small and relatively secure but for continued elephant poaching.

But the damage had been done before the English left in 1947. 90% of the tigers were gone by then.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:


. I may not have walked in Africa

TA DA!!!!! and in that my point is proven. You know squat about Africa.

Dave, please let me buy you a beer sometime?

Naki, I think it is time for you to sign off on this post? Mugabe: a consequence of historical mistakes???????? He is a evil, self serving, megalomaniac who is about a 1000 times more racist than any "colonialist".
And you want us to stop swearing?