I have seen, but not actively hunted , some nice rams in Tanz, Zim & Moz. I'll be hunting the Eastern Cape/Stormberg area soon and I'd like a impala. How do they generally compare in size to their northern kin?

Smaller but you shouldn't be disappointed with their inferior size as they are a species of their own (Southern Impala).

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Smaller but you shouldn't be disappointed with their inferior size as they are a species of their own (Southern Impala).

Let me firstly admit that I have no particular knowledge about the relative size of the horns of impala rams from the EC Stormberg area. I assume that they will be typical of those found in the whole of the Eastern Cape.

Yes, they [at least as far as the size of their horns] are generally smaller than the rams found in eg. Rooibokkraal area in Limpopo Province. But they are most definitely NOT a different "species"! At best a relatively isolated local conditions adapted population, and one with generally smaller horns, but not different species or even a different subspecies!

Unless you are an "inches" hunter, I see no reason why you cannot have a wonderfully satisfying hunt for one of the "bigger horned" individuals to be found on the area where you are hunting. You decide what you would want more: (i) A really "inferior" and far below average for the area specimen from Rooibokkraal with xy" horns, or (ii) a real upper 5 % of the population trophy from Stormberg with horns of (xy-2)"?

By all means go to the Stormberg EC area and enjoy your trophy impala hunt, and regard the actual inches as just incidental!

I guess it depends on whether you're a lumper or a grouper but there are generally acknowledged to be three different sub species. Details HERE. and HERE

I always reckon impala are very underrated. Spend some time watching the herd (or group) and you'll soon see there's always no end of inter-relating going on between them.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Smaller but you shouldn't be disappointed with their inferior size as they are a species of their own (Southern Impala).

I believe there are two subspecies but I personally find that hard to believe if I see the pictures of the trophy quality coming out of Uganda and compare it to RSA....

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

I believe there are two subspecies but I personally find that hard to believe if I see the pictures of the trophy quality coming out of Uganda and compare it to RSA....

Caracal

There are 3 sub species. (See my links above). The ones you see in RSA are the southern impala or more correctly aepyceros melampus melampus and the ones from Uganda are east African imapala or more correctly aepyceros melampus reddilis.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

I believe there are two subspecies but I personally find that hard to believe if I see the pictures of the trophy quality coming out of Uganda and compare it to RSA....

Caracal

There are 3 sub species. (See my links above). The ones you see in RSA are the southern impala or more correctly aepyceros melampus melampus and the ones from Uganda are east African imapala or more correctly aepyceros melampus reddilis.

Steve,
when it comes to subspecies it very much depends on the source you use. This is supported by molecular data:http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/550/0

Caracal

I agree. Hence my earlier comment about lumpers & groupers but I was using RW as my reference (perhaps I should have mentioned that) because it's the most commonly used source for hunters.

Just a rough guide.
The EC Impalas are generally 20-22" some times you can crack 23-24" I have taken 25" before but not every year.

I took a 24 1/4" impala in KZN in 2004 several days into my hunt. If you're patient, your PH will find you the impala you desire. I don't get all hung up on inches though. The only reason this one was measured is because it was the largest ever taken by the PH and on the concession hunting.

Just how do you: "Took" something??
George

I have been very lucky when it comes to impala. took a 26.5 and a couple of 24's outside of Kirkwood in the Eastern Cape.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Just how do you: "Took" something??
George

African way of saying "harvested". Catch up.

quote:

Originally posted by impalaslayer:
I have been very lucky when it comes to impala. took a 26.5 and a couple of 24's outside of Kirkwood in the Eastern Cape.

You truly deserve you nickname!
That's enormous.
I took a 25 1/2 in 2006, and thought that was big for EC

I sent some pics to leopard valleys and maybe he will be kind enough to post for me.

Sorry, Impala
will do, as soon as I get home to my PC tomorrow

quote:

regard the actual inches as just incidental!

Good advice for all species.

_________________________
“... Hence my earlier comment about lumpers & groupers but I was using RW as my reference (perhaps I should have mentioned that) because it's the most commonly used source for hunters”
-----------------------------------------

Steve:

At the risk of opening up yet another sophmoric debate about SCI and its perceived problems, I respectfully disagree with your statement that the Rowland Ward record book is the most commonly used source for hunters. I suspect that statement is not supported by the annual sales of the RW record books over the more than three decades that SCI’s record books have been available.

Be that as it may, as you say, it depends upon whether you are a lumper or splitter, but I found five subspecies of the species Aepyceros melampus (impala) in a quick check of my sources:

SOUTHERN SUBSPECIES
A.m. johnstoni --- (eastern Zambia, Malawi, northern Mozambique, and extreme southern Tanzania),
A.m.katangae --- southeastern Congo),
A.m. melampus --- (southeastern Angola, Namibia, Botswana, southwestern Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, South Africa, Lesotho and Swaziland),

EAST AFRICAN SUBSPECIES
A.m. rendilis --- (Kenya, Rwanda, southwestern and northeastern Uganda, and Tanzania south to the Selous)

BLACK-FACED SUBSPECIES
A.m. petersi --- (southern Angola, northwestern Namibia)

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by impalaslayer:
I sent some pics to leopard valleys and maybe he will be kind enough to post for me.

and here they are . . .

Bill

The lumpers/groupers/splitters issues are always open to debate but my guess is as time goes on, science will probably change things yet again as it has done with the sable but of course, we won't know for sure until it happens.

As for most commonly used: I still reckon RW is the better/most commonly used reference source. If nothing else, the RW book and system etc was established in 1892 or so (1892 being the first publication date) and SCI only established in 1972 and consequently RW has a head start of around 80 years.

I don't know when the 1st SCI record book was published (you might though?) and although it was probably post 1972, I've used that year to measure the time difference.

Only personal opinions though and mine are not worth any more that anyone else's.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Bill

The lumpers/groupers/splitters issues are always open to debate but my guess is as time goes on, science will probably change things yet again as it has done with the sable but of course, we won't know for sure until it happens.

As for most commonly used: I still reckon RW is the better/most commonly used reference source. If nothing else, the RW book and system etc was established in 1892 or so (1892 being the first publication date) and SCI only established in 1972 and consequently RW has a head start of around 80 years.

I don't know when the 1st SCI record book was published (you might though?) and although it was probably post 1972, I've used that year to measure the time difference.

Only personal opinions though and mine are not worth any more that anyone else's.

Steve:

The first SCI record book was released in about 1980. As SCI's publications director starting in 1983, I edited and published the books until I retired in 1999.

(C.J. McElroy was "editor" in name only in its earliest years before I was officially granted the title.)

Although the Rowland Ward books indeed were first published in 1892, it was a long time before they truthfully could be called a reference source for anything other than the hunting feats of the wealthy Brits who patronized Mr. Ward's taxidermy services.

Longevity does not translate into wide use, though. Even today, the number of Canadians, Americans and Mexicans (some 30 million hunters in all) who have heard of the RW books can be measured in a few thousands. And, of those who know the RW books exist, the number of those who have actually seen one would be infinitesimal.

Since the first SCI record book was published some thirty years ago, a conservative estimate of the number of books SCI has sold to hunters around the world would exceed 120,000. I would guess that number far surpasses the number of books published by Rowland Ward over its entire 80 years of publication.

As for which book is a better source, that's a highly subjective matter. I must confess that I'm biased.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Just how do you: "Took" something??
George

I don't know, I took his life, so yeah, I "took" something.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
[
Steve:

The first SCI record book was released in about 1980. As SCI's publications director starting in 1983, I edited and published the books until I retired in 1999.

(C.J. McElroy was "editor" in name only in its earliest years before I was officially granted the title.)

Although the Rowland Ward books indeed were first published in 1892, it was a long time before they truthfully could be called a reference source for anything other than the hunting feats of the wealthy Brits who patronized Mr. Ward's taxidermy services.

Longevity does not translate into wide use, though. Even today, the number of Canadians, Americans and Mexicans (some 30 million hunters in all) who have heard of the RW books can be measured in a few thousands. And, of those who know the RW books exist, the number of those who have actually seen one would be infinitesimal.

Since the first SCI record book was published some thirty years ago, a conservative estimate of the number of books SCI has sold to hunters around the world would exceed 120,000. I would guess that number far surpasses the number of books published by Rowland Ward over its entire 80 years of publication.

As for which book is a better source, that's a highly subjective matter. I must confess that I'm biased.

Bill Quimby

Thanks Bill........ So RW has 88 years on SCI......

I'm also biased so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree & (hopefully) respect the other's point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
[
Steve:

The first SCI record book was released in about 1980. As SCI's publications director starting in 1983, I edited and published the books until I retired in 1999.

(C.J. McElroy was "editor" in name only in its earliest years before I was officially granted the title.)

Although the Rowland Ward books indeed were first published in 1892, it was a long time before they truthfully could be called a reference source for anything other than the hunting feats of the wealthy Brits who patronized Mr. Ward's taxidermy services.

Longevity does not translate into wide use, though. Even today, the number of Canadians, Americans and Mexicans (some 30 million hunters in all) who have heard of the RW books can be measured in a few thousands. And, of those who know the RW books exist, the number of those who have actually seen one would be infinitesimal.

Since the first SCI record book was published some thirty years ago, a conservative estimate of the number of books SCI has sold to hunters around the world would exceed 120,000. I would guess that number far surpasses the number of books published by Rowland Ward over its entire 80 years of publication.

As for which book is a better source, that's a highly subjective matter. I must confess that I'm biased.

Bill Quimby

Thanks Bill........ So RW has 88 years on SCI......

I'm also biased so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree & (hopefully) respect the other's point of view.

Hi Steve.

We can agree that the Rowland Ward book is 88 years older than SCI's. However, I would hope you also might agree that the Rowland Ward book wasn't much until Steve Smith took it over in about 1984 or 85.

Bill

Bill

Hmmmmmm. That's a good question.

Uncle Stevie was VERY kind to me when I was first starting out. He was a lovely bloke & I'll never forget him or his kindness to me....... & I certainly agree he made a massive difference to RW but that said, I reckon pre Stevie Smith RW had far more overall credibility than SCI ever had & post Stevie Smith RW even more so.

I'd certainly agree he was the best thing that ever happened to RW publications.

Incidentally, & more generally: Shortly before he died, Stevie Smith wrote a magnificent book called 'The Hunter & The Go Away Bird' that I'd highly recommend to anyone & everyone.

Agree with you on Steve's book and his contributions to the Rowland Ward book, but that's where it ends. As you said, we can agree to disagree.

I only met Steve one time, and that was over dinner in June 1983 on my first trip to South Africa. His accidental death was a shocker.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
Agree with you on Steve's book and his contributions to the Rowland Ward book, but that's where it ends. As you said, we can agree to disagree.

I only met Steve one time, and that was over dinner in June 1983 on my first trip to South Africa. His accidental death was a shocker.

Bill

Too right it was. Just goes to prove how fickle the finger of fate really is!

One from Limpopo South Africa

I have shot 2 impala in the Selous and one in Masailand; the Masailand impala is shorter than my Selous animals, but it is noticeably more massive - the difference is striking.

They do make a beautiful mount, but my last two are skull mounts below 2 caribou and a sable that are all over the French doors leading out to my pool. Looks cool.

My last Impala I took in Masaai land landed up going 28"

Some beautiful impala here. This one is from the Selous.

Jkhunter and blacktailer simply awsome!!! Congratulations

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by impalaslayer:
I sent some pics to leopard valleys and maybe he will be kind enough to post for me.

and here they are . . .

Beautiful impala and lovely taxidermy/presentation