I keep seeing people raving about the ballistics of the .375 Ruger and how it trumps the ballistics of the .375 H&H magnum. Even Craig Boddington has spoken of this. Look at the external ballistics figures of both the .375 Ruger and the .375 H&H magnum and you will see that, as loaded by Hornady, both are within about 40 fps of each other. Try loading the .375 H&H with Reloader 15 and you'll see the .375 H&H is right there with the Ruger cartridge. Unfortunately, Ruger loads only Hornady DGX and DGS bullets, whereas, the numerous makers of .375 H&H magnum ammunition load this round with every great premium bullet on the market. I agree the .375 Ruger cartridge is a great design but I certainly do not think it is a better design than the .375 H&H magnum as far as dangerous game is concerned. Perhaps as a large plains game round but with its sharp shoulders, I think I would have a more difficult time believing it could feed as well as the slick feeding .375 H&H magnum. To each their own. I can actually see myself buying a .375 Ruger Hawkeye one of these days. Not for the extra performance as I believe there is no real difference when handloaded. Only because of the slick, carbine like design of the Hawkeye rifle itself. We shall see.

Thanks,

jfm

The Ruger 375 is slightly hotter, but I doubt if it makes any pragmatic difference when hunting. The real advantage is that Ruger makes dependable good looking CRF rifles for a very reasonable price. I am a lefty and bought one of their LH African 375 models second hand for a delivered price of $ 750. I took it to Zim and killed two tuskless cows with it. How can you beat that cost?

The Ruger case holds 5 or 6 grains more powder than the H&H so will either match the H&H design with less pressure or slightly better it with the same pressure. However in the field the difference is minimal. As for the shoulder angle and case taper, no one seems to complain about those on the 416 Rigby.

The real benefits that the Ruger design - in both 375 and 416 - is that they can be built on lighter, cheaper standard length actions.

quote:

Try loading the .375 H&H with Reloader 15 and you'll see the .375 H&H is right there with the Ruger cartridge.

I shoot R-15 in my .375 H&H and it shoots really well and I get and honest 2500 with 300 gr bullets. But...it will do little more with R-17...some rifles don't shoot as well though and I have not tried it in mine.

quote:

I keep seeing people raving about the ballistics of the .375 Ruger and how it trumps the ballistics of the .375 H&H magnum.

They have to find some way to sell more rifles.

To me the most practicle thing about the .375 ruger is its a beltless cartrige.

The real question you have to ask is...where do you find .375 Ruger ammo in Zim, Zambia, or Moz when your rifle shows up off the plane but your ammo did not. .375 H&H ammo, not the same problem.

I had that happen in 2008 in Zim. Gun arrived, but the ammo did not. I was able to shoot a my huge leopard (in the pic to the left of this post) using ammo borrowed from my PH (.375 H&H Nosler Partition). Couldn't have done that with the Ruger.

There is NO practical difference ballistically between the two - EXCEPT ONE! If you lose your ammo on the way to Africa, you can find 375 H&H but not likely 375 Ruger. If you reload 375 H&H and 375 Ruger, both can be bumped-up to produce 5000 ft.# at the muzzle. Check out the most recent Barnes reloading manual. That's plenty of horse power for Africa or anywhere else.

I doubt that five years after H&H introduced their 375 that you could find ammo in Africa either.

and the beat goes on.

It is great to have the ability to choose something different, but the differences are all intrinsic. The game being shot and the hunter doing the shooting will not be able to discern any tangible difference in effectiveness, if all shots from either are placed correctly the first time.

The Ruger will never replace the H&H.

If you really want something different go with a 375/404 JS.

I have often been asked how much better our own 375/404 is "better" than the 375H&H. And my answer has always been apart from the flatter trajectory, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing in it that kills any better.

I suppose we as hunters and shooters will always disagree on why a few fps and a few foot pounds of energy make all that difference.

This is actually no difference from those who keep telling us a 416 kills better than a 375. and 458 kills better than a 416.

Having hunted for so long, I have discovered that what makes the difference is WHERE you hit them, not with how much energy the bullet has.

All this with reason of course.

quote:

Having hunted for so long, I have discovered that what makes the difference is WHERE you hit them, not with how much energy the bullet has.

All this with reason of course.

+ 1 saeed ...

i have seen no difference in the effects on big game animals of the 375 ruger or the 375 h&h ... the difference is in the rifle and action not the bullet ..

+1 Saeed.

Based on my experiences with a heap of Water Buffalo from 318WR to 505 Gibbs and all and sundry in between, where you hit them is it.

quote:

Having hunted for so long, I have discovered that what makes the difference is WHERE you hit them, not with how much energy the bullet has.

All this with reason of course.

Plus 1 more.

Good bullet placement each shot = dead critter.

Poor bullet placement with any shot = trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The Ruger case holds 5 or 6 grains more powder than the H&H so will either match the H&H design with less pressure or slightly better it with the same pressure. However in the field the difference is minimal. As for the shoulder angle and case taper, no one seems to complain about those on the 416 Rigby.

The real benefits that the Ruger design - in both 375 and 416 - is that they can be built on lighter, cheaper standard length actions.

All true except for Phil not realizing that although the .416 Rigby has the sharpest of 45-degree shoulder angles around,
even P.O. Ackley would not go that far,
it actually has a lot of case taper,
way more than the 404 Jeffery, which has a minimal case taper, but only 8.5-degree shoulder.
The .416 Rigby is the opposite of the 404 Jeffery in both shoulder angle and case body taper.

I complain about the silly .416 Rigby shoulder angle all the time.
I do like the .416 Rigby case body taper,
same as the .338 Lapua Magnum case body taper.

... From my cold, dead hands,
... or when I go blind,
... but I will keep the shotguns if just blind.

Over on the big bore forum there was supposed to be a "race" between the Ruger and H&H. They had to be factory loads, but the H&H had to use traditional factory loads, not the newer Hornady higher velocity ones. They were going to shoot them side by side, cutting the barrel length to see which had, or maintained, the better velocity, if I remember correctly. Sort of a stacked deck IMO, but those were the rules. I think this started about 4 years ago (?) and last I read everything was ready, just had to go to the range...I think that was about a year ago.
Anyway, if it ever happens, maybe some questions someone has will be answered....

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I doubt that five years after H&H introduced their 375 that you could find ammo in Africa either.

Yes but I doubt you'll find 375 Ruger ammo in Africa (or anywhere else for that matter) 100 years from now.

quote:

The real advantage is that Ruger makes dependable good looking CRF rifles for a very reasonable price.

By dropping the longer actioned rifles Ruger was able to drop production of one action, one barrel, and one stock. The advertising effort got easier along with many other things a manufacturer and wholesaler needs to worry about. This is how Ruger is able to make the 375 Ruger rifles cheap.

But cheap doesn't mean better. That's where Ruger and a group of magazine writers went to work to convince the buying public that the merits of the Ruger cartridge were significantly greater than the merits of the .375 H&H.

The same thing happened with the Ultra Mags, the Short mags, and the Super Short Mags. The public was persuaded at first but, as buyers gained practicable experience, sales began to fall. What is left of those cartridges today?

Imagine a new 7mm magnum cartridge that has no belt, will work through an action 3/8" shorter, and, because it is crammed with powder and operates at higher pressures, it can exceed 7mm Remington Magnum velocities by a hair. Would it really be worth the effort? Would it really be any better?

quote:

By dropping the longer actioned rifles Ruger was able to drop production of one action, one barrel, and one stock.

You got it in one.


"The same thing happened with the Ultra Mags, the Short mags, and the Super Short Mags. The public was persuaded at first but, as buyers gained practicable experience, sales began to fall. What is left of those cartridges today?"


300WSM and 325WSM are the only really viable one's out here. Maybe the 270WSM.

.

Ledvm, If all you're getting with 300 grain bullets using R-15 is 2500 fps, you must be loading strictly for accuracy out of you rifle. I can usually get 2840 fps with 270 grain Barnes TSX and 2620 with 300 grain TSX bullets. Accuracy is superb in both and penetration has to be seen to be believed. I have a Winchester model 70 stainless synthetic classic rifle and I've been told before, these rifles have inherently fast barrels. I don't know if that is true but I guess it is possible.

Thank you all for posting,

jfm

If ammo can be loaded or in some cases reloaded to their maximum why don't the manufacturers themselves load to these same values and market the batches accordingly?

Federal has taken one step in this direction with its Safari Grade.

When I decided to have a 375 built I seriously considered the 375 Ruger but settled on the H&H instead.
My reasons were 1: The 375 H&H is a classic for Africa. 2: The availability of different ammo on the market for the H&H. 3: The Ruger only has 2 or 3 options on factory ammo. 4: Animals the world over have been being killed by the H&H for a hundred years & did not notice that they were being shot by a bullet going 40fps slower. 5: Oh, & lastly, I knew my P.H. had spare 375 H&H ammo available in camp, but not any 375 Ruger.
I do not regret my decision 1 bit.
LONG LIVE THE 375 H&H!

Fujotupu, I know Hornady markets their "Superformance" loads in .375 H&H but you can only get it in their own DGS and DGX bullets. The H&H ammunition in Superformance is 40 fps slower than the Ruger .375. Federal sells their "Heavy Magnum" ammunition. I believe they changed their 300 grain loads from 2700 fps to 2600 fps. Or at least they used to have this ammunition available. I agree with you that all manufacturers should have a standard and heavy loading for guns that are capable of the extra pressures. Thanks for your input.

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Ledvm, If all you're getting with 300 grain bullets using R-15 is 2500 fps, you must be loading strictly for accuracy out of you rifle. I can usually get 2840 fps with 270 grain Barnes TSX and 2620 with 300 grain TSX bullets. Accuracy is superb in both and penetration has to be seen to be believed. I have a Winchester model 70 stainless synthetic classic rifle and I've been told before, these rifles have inherently fast barrels. I don't know if that is true but I guess it is possible.

Thank you all for posting,

jfm

All I can tell you is that my rifle is very accurate with 300 gr TSX and 300 gr Banded solids...been shooting them a long time. I shoot 73 gr of R-15 in it and I get ~2575 fps out of it with the chrono 15 ft from muzzle. I have have re-checked it many times. That is a max load for that rifle. I know lots of folks say theirs do better...but that is all I get from mine. It is a conventional (blue/walnut) Win M-70. It shoots solids and TSX to exact same point of impact and less than an 1" with that load and 2525 fps suits me fine so I haven't worried about it much. I know from Mike Brady's testing...R-17 would yield more fps but some folks that have tried it say it is not as accurate as R-15. Thats all I know.

I know a PH in Zim. that should have two boxes of 375 Ruger if needed. He liked the look, compactness, and results of my Alaskan.

That is a start for finding this ammo in Zim.

Come along chaps its all in the mind with supercharging ammo to gain those few fps to squeeze out some extra 'oomph' to printing holes in a dime sized target is all hype.

With all the ranting and raving about the 375 H&H being the ideal all round DG caliber, etc.etc. have you all forgotten that it gained fame in its heyday, when there were no modern powders and all the other paraphernalia that goes with reloading?

Your target skills are more than ample if you can slot your shots into a 4" square - I would be on your side if you were popping Robins at 100yds (about 2 x 1") but not at a target which requires ideal bullet placement into an 8 x 8" target.

I would however agree on loading a personal choice of bullet for the game you have on the menu.

How should a PH react when a client who lays claim that he can shoot the head off a field mouse at a 100yds cannot hit the spot on paper?

Most PHs (and trackers)grin from ear to ear when the client consistently pops a group of 3 into 3" square dead on.

'Nuff said.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
and the beat goes on.

It is great to have the ability to choose something different, but the differences are all intrinsic. The game being shot and the hunter doing the shooting will not be able to discern any tangible difference in effectiveness, if all shots from either are placed correctly the first time.

The Ruger will never replace the H&H.

If you really want something different go with a 375/404 JS.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have often been asked how much better our own 375/404 is "better" than the 375H&H. And my answer has always been apart from the flatter trajectory, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing in it that kills any better.

I suppose we as hunters and shooters will always disagree on why a few fps and a few foot pounds of energy make all that difference.

This is actually no difference from those who keep telling us a 416 kills better than a 375. and 458 kills better than a 416.

Having hunted for so long, I have discovered that what makes the difference is WHERE you hit them, not with how much energy the bullet has.

All this with reason of course.

The above is just two examples of the voice of reason!

The biggest reason for sales of the 375 Ruger has nothing to do with it’s seemingly magic design or it’s mistakenly perceived leap over the old 1912 375 H&H!

If it had not been placed in two very neat looking “NEW” little rifles for the “GOTTA HAVE SOMETHING NEW” shooting range crowd, it would go the same way of the 376 Styer. Still being made but has faded to the very back-ground of the firearms industry. Like the short magnums of a few years ago that were to change the whole shooting world, now in the process of fadeing to the deep back-ground as well.

The simple fact is the un-seating of a tried and true cartridge like the 375H&H, that has held it’s own for just over 100 years and is still on top of the heap of large mediums, is not going to happen in my life time! As all above have said the only practical difference between the two ballistics wise, is in favor of the old H&H round with availability of off the shelf ammo in Africa, and if not for the two special purpose little rifles would not have sold at all.

None of what I have written above is to say the cartridge is not GOOD, because it is, but is not anything to crow about, because no animal will be able to detect the difference with identical shot placement.

......................................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I doubt that five years after H&H introduced their 375 that you could find ammo in Africa either.

The .375H&H was just another proprietary british also-ran cartridge along with the .350 rigby and .333 jeffery.

That is until winchester began to offer rifles for it in 1935.

And after WWII it basically became the only game in town, as kynoch gradually began to stop production of other cartridges...

.375H&H, a classic by lack of any other readily avaliable choice!


.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I doubt that five years after H&H introduced their 375 that you could find ammo in Africa either.

The .375H&H was just another proprietary british also-ran cartridge along with the .350 rigby and .333 jeffery.

That is until winchester began to offer rifles for it in 1935.

And after WWII it basically became the only game in town, as kynoch gradually began to stop production of other cartridges...

.375H&H, a classic by lack of any other readily avaliable choice!


.

Stir if you like but in 1917 five years after the 375H&H was introduced I doubt you could buy ammo of any type in AFRICA! The reason was most ammo was ordered in sealed soldered cans from the makers in bulk because there were wars going on all over Europe. About the only place in all of southern African that you could even hope to buy any type of ammo was in Nairobi Kenya, and the choice was slim to none!

About the only ammo even available even then was military rounds like 303 Britt, or the German rounds like 8mm and 9mm 9.3.

Ammo for doubles was still available up into the early 1950s, and only around 1955 some chamberings had been discontinued and was the reason for the then ill concieved 458 Win mag with it's early problems with hang fires and missfires because of the powders available to the makers. problems that could have been solved on the outset by just using the 375 H&H case in the full length mod 70 action. However, then it would just have been the 458 LOTT. The old 375 H&H just kept on rolling along!

The .375H&H was just another proprietary british also-ran cartridge along with the .350 rigby and .333 jeffery.

That is until winchester began to offer rifles for it in 1935.

And after WWII it basically became the only game in town, as kynoch gradually began to stop production of other cartridges...

.375H&H, a classic by lack of any other readily avaliable choice!

The .375 was never just another British also ran cartridge. It became popular almost immediately with African hunters. Even if it was the only thing offered, that does not negate its superb qualities of accuracy, penetration and killing effect beyond what calculations says it should be capable of. If the .308 was, for some reason, no longer being produced, would that mean the .30-06 Springfield is an also-ran? Only chosen because nothing else was available? I believe your logic may be skewed. Thanks for the post anyway as all are appreciated.

jfm

Winchester chose the .375 H&H over those and other cartridges for a reason.

JFM ?

Are you implying it was Winchester that made the 375 H&H mainstream ?

Perhaps in your world ! There is off course a world outside of the USA !

The 375 H&H was offered by other companies other than H&H prior to your 1935 date.

I have a lowly Jeffery from 1926 sitting here in my rack in 375 H&H

As to the 375 being the only show in town, nope! not ! there were many other "shows" in town also and again outside the realm of the US consciousness.

As to the availability of 375 H&H ammo again the contribution of Kynoch did not cease untill the early 70's and there were other again outside of the common US consciousness that could be relied on for ammo and of course rifles.

ALF, re-read the post. I never said Winchester made the .375 H&H mainstream. I never said the .375 H&H magnum was the only show in town. I was just re-posting a quote from TwoZero. It didn't show up as a quote though. My point was that it does not matter if the .375 H&H was the only show in town or not. It is still a great cartridge with excellent accuracy, penetration and shootability. Today, it's even better than it was due to modern powders and premium bullets.

Thanks,

jfm

I predict the 375 Ruger will replace the 375 H&H just as the 300 Win Mag took over for the 300 H&H. It is just a better cartridge. You old farts are just going to have to get use to it. I would sell those old fashioned 375 H&Hs while they still have some value.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Try loading the .375 H&H with Reloader 15 and you'll see the .375 H&H is right there with the Ruger cartridge.

I shoot R-15 in my .375 H&H and it shoots really well and I get and honest 2500 with 300 gr bullets. But...it will do little more with R-17...some rifles don't shoot as well though and I have not tried it in mine.

How many grains of RL-15 are you using? I use 69.5 and get 2,580 - 2,600 with 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards.

Out of the particular 5# canister of R-15 I have now (which I have had for a while)...I shoot "73"grains for an ave. vel. Of 2575 fps 15 feet from muzzle.

Amazing how different barrels can be. When I worked up loads for the gun years ago the groups tightened up as I worked through .5 grain changes and then loosened up after 69.5 The gun just loves that exact load.

The best I get with factory ammo is 1 1/2 inches at 100.

Jim,
Our rifles like the same velocity for accuracy it seems. R-15 is noted to vary from lot to lot as well. Maybe difference in powders, maybe difference in barrels, or maybe some of both. But your point does illustrate why I handload...would be hard to make a one recipe for all load that shoots well in all.