Oh Lord...I give up on this thread...

Maybe there is something on Oprah...

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
SG Olds,

First, it's LionHunter, not lionhunter, and if you wish to address me directly, please have the common courtesy to get it right.

Get over yourself.

Thanks so much for contributing. Perhaps you also wouldn't hunt Lion over "gutpiles"? Your 2 cents worth is worth, well, 2 cents. Oprah has more experience in Africa than some of the posters in this thread. Time to go

Cheers

SG Olds - That's actually funny, not to mention fairly accurate!!! Smart ass.

Aaron

SG Olds seems to have taken the debate...

i didn't see a choice for...I have no desire to hunt a lion

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Oprah has more experience in Africa than some of the posters in this thread.

Oprah hunts?

I think it was a figure of speech!

Walter said the following:

"I wish I had Oprah's money!

I would hunt 6 months a year!

I would hunt lion, elephant, and even quamodos!

They are supposed to be the most dangerous animals on earth!

I might even bribe my PH to go take a leak so I can kill it all by myself!"

I've hunted lions twice, and shot one lion late on my second safari for them. Between the two hunts, I spent 37 days in the field before taking one. The first hunt was with Roy Vincent in Zimbabwe, and the second with Cecil Riggs in Botswana. The lion I killed was taken after several miles of tracking on foot in the Okavango, and was one hell of a great hunt.

I'd love to do it one more time, hopefully someday with Alan Vincent in Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
That is what my research has led me to so far. How wrong am I and what other researches do I need to make?

Hmmm. Free range lion vs. canned.

First, bait isn't even needed for canned lion. Second, no wild lion's behavior or location can be reliably predicted by anyone, not from day to day or even year to year. We do get lucky, however, from time to time.

But what the hell, I'll assign some reading just to keep you busy and out of trouble.

Find a good dictionary. The OED is a good one.

Check out the definition of "tame" and compare it with the meaning of "wild".

Then check out "free" and compare that to "penned".

Compare and contrast "bait" and "guts".

Next read up on "chance" and compare it with "certainty".

And after that, see if you can spot any differences between "work" and "sloth".

Then, just for fun, compare and contrast "hunting" with "killing" - and "right" with "wrong".

quote:

Originally posted by filmit:

quote:

I have hunted lion as a PH. Something happened and I made a vow to never ever again have anything to do with any lion hunting, be it as PH, Hunting Outfitter or hunter

What happened, shit your pants?

No, not quite. But I was scared enough to know that I'm on a real lion hunt!

The reason for not wanting anything to do with lion hunting, other than condemming canned shooting, should, for almost any member of the public, remain confidential, but has nothing to do with being scared or not up to it in any manner. It is a very private affair that if fully told will reveal the truth of Bill R Quimby’s remark that: “Ethics are in the eye of the beholder!” What is absolutely ethical for one man [ and in this case a man with what may be generally regarded as a very good sense of ethics] is shamefully unethical to another. I’m the other! ‘Nough said.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:

quote:

Originally posted by filmit:

quote:

I have hunted lion as a PH. Something happened and I made a vow to never ever again have anything to do with any lion hunting, be it as PH, Hunting Outfitter or hunter

What happened, shit your pants?

No, not quite. But I was scared enough to know that I'm on a real lion hunt!

The reason for not wanting anything to do with lion hunting, other than condemming canned shooting, should, for almost any member of the public, remain confidential, but has nothing to do with being scared or not up to it in any manner. It is a very private affair that if fully told will reveal the truth of Bill R Quimby’s remark that: “Ethics are in the eye of the beholder!” What is absolutely ethical for one man [ and in this case a man with what may be generally regarded as a very good sense of ethics] is shamefully unethical to another. I’m the other! ‘Nough said.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew:

The second part of my personal definition of ethics goes like this: "Ethics are the standards acceptable to the majority of participants in a specific area."

For example, in Arizona and several other U.S. states, baiting of bears is illegal and considered unethical. In many Canadian provinces, it is widely accepted and practiced, and is considered ethical.

As do most people on this forum, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would accept the shooting of African lions that were raised elsewhere and released on a game farm specifically to be killed a short time later.

Bill Quimby

Bill,

I have absolutely no problem with your very accurate and true remark about ethics in the eye of the beholder, or the rest of your definition, or your view on ethics in general. I quite agree that ethics are in the eye of the beholder.

Like you, I too find it hard to believe that in the “world wide area” – of AR forum participants in the poll under discussion here – a full 26 %, or at this time 33 AR Forum participants, in the vote have voted that shooting a pen raised lion can be ethical. Those are their views, and although I do not agree and my vote is one of the 74% who consider it unethical. By no means do I say that these hunters are "unethical". As per your definition, given that we define the "area" in your definition as Sandhurst Safaris' Fletcher Game Farm, the vast majority of participants in that "area" will consider shooting a canned lion released in an area as ethical, and that makes the client, what I call a shooter, into a hunter who can claim to be "an ethical hunter in the Sandhurst Safari area".

It is not really the difference between the ethics of these lion "shooters" from my view lion hunting that pisses me of: It is the total lack of business ethics of many [not all, but many] Hunting Outfitters who offer such "shoots" and set the scene for the client to believe that he actually "hunts" a true wild lion. Some clients obviously swallow the bait, hook, line and sinker. They honestly believe that they hunted a true wild lion, one of the 172 that year, that have strayed in from Botswana. Does the fact that they honestly believe in something known by others to be wrong make them unethical? Others, methinks, may have or get doubts about the true status of the lion they shot, but suppress those instincts of wanting to find out if their doubts are founded or not, in fear of having to admit that they are wrong. I believe there is a third category, those that know for sure they were conned, either even before booking, or they realize it later, but still flatly refuse to admit that they shot a canned lion. If there is one statistic that I would really want to know it is this: How many of the 33 votes saying that shooting a pen raised lion can be "ethical" are really just saying so to avoid admitting to themselves that they were caught for a sucker by a HO and PH who set them up to believe they would hunt a wild lion? "Admission of guilt PM's" about this sent to me will be very much appreciated and you have my solemn word that these will be treated with absolute confidentiality about who the sender is.

Bill, I thank you for posting it as ever since reading your remark about “Ethics are in the eye of the beholder” I have developed what I regard as a very much more mature view on ethics. Each to his own!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

My feeling about canned lion hunting are pretty clear as from my previous posts.Last night i was talking to a very well known PH who has operations in zambia and tanz.He doesnt aprove of it and will never shoot one for himself like that but his whole take on the canned lion story is the more that get shot in captive the less pressure there is on the wild population..He said that most african countries have got two much quota for each area and that there are only a few operations that look maftre their lion population and make sure that only mature lions are killed.He said most outfitters will shoot all their quota and after 5 years their is nothing left.They then pack in there operation and move onto the next site leaving a once good area in a mess.

Damn SG Olds you stepped on some toes. Sounds like a fair discription of any "baited hunt" be it for Lion, Leopard, Hyena or Bush Pig. Bait is bait be it a leg or whole animial, but the "guts" are reserved for the drag. Damn it I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this string, but what the hell.

There should be the opportunity to vote for or against the statement 'I totally abhor all aspects of canned Lion hunting and everyone involved in it whether as supplier or customer should be named, shamed and tied to a tree for Leopard bait'.

Steve thats why there was 26% that voted for it.Because it was done in secret.If it was a open poll That number would be down to 2%

For a practice to be ethical or unethical I think we have to be comparing apples to apples. I might suggest that the hunting/shooting of a lion born in captivity, raised in captivity and spawned from captive lions is only related to hunting wild lions in that both animals look like lions.

In my mind shooting captive bred lions is not unethical "lion" hunting because the captive bred lions are so far removed from wild lions.

The whole lion breeding/shooting thing doesn't really wind me up one way or the other but I have been to the breeding facilities and I just can't make myself see one of those incredible lions as a trophy. They just are not anything like a wild lion except they look alike.

My 2 cents!

Mark

It would be best if we keep our "ethics" to ourselves and just let our actions reflect them.

But then again what fun would that be?

I agree that we all need to make our own decisions about most ethical issues, but I personally believe that the canned Lion shooting issue goes beyond personal ethical decisions....... I see it as probably the biggest threat to sport hunting in Africa that exists today.

I believe that if we don't stamp it out ourselves, sooner or later, the antis will use it as a weapon against us, and they won't use it to simply stop the practice, they'll use it to try to get all African sport hunting stopped or at least made so politically incorrect, it'll eventually die out.

Personally, I'd rather we police ourselves rather than have those buggers do it for us.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I agree that we all need to make our own decisions about most ethical issues, but I personally believe that the canned Lion shooting issue goes beyond personal ethical decisions....... I see it as probably the biggest threat to sport hunting in Africa that exists today.

I believe that if we don't stamp it out ourselves, sooner or later, the antis will use it as a weapon against us, and they won't use it to simply stop the practice, they'll use it to try to get all African sport hunting stopped or at least made so politically incorrect, it'll eventually die out.

Personally, I'd rather we police ourselves rather than have those buggers do it for us.

Steve, I agree with you 100%. I also have visited lion breeding farms in South Africa. At one, the young woman who managed the place was able to call three big-maned males to the fence by calling their names. When they padded up to her, she stuck her hand through the electric fence and scratched the ears of each animal and cooed as if they were overgrown puppies! She said she had raised them since they were cubs and that her brother was "releasing them into the wild." Hah! Their enclosure couldn't have been more than 5 or 6 acres, and was covered with the bones of donkeys they had eaten. This was near Taneen (sp?) in 2005.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I agree that we all need to make our own decisions about most ethical issues, but I personally believe that the canned Lion shooting issue goes beyond personal ethical decisions....... I see it as probably the biggest threat to sport hunting in Africa that exists today.

I believe that if we don't stamp it out ourselves, sooner or later, the antis will use it as a weapon against us, and they won't use it to simply stop the practice, they'll use it to try to get all African sport hunting stopped or at least made so politically incorrect, it'll eventually die out.

Personally, I'd rather we police ourselves rather than have those buggers do it for us.

Steve, I agree with you 100%. I also have visited lion breeding farms in South Africa. At one, the young woman who managed the place was able to call three big-maned males to the fence by calling their names. When they padded up to her, she stuck her hand through the electric fence and scratched the ears of each animal and cooed as if they were overgrown puppies! She said she had raised them since they were cubs and that her brother was "releasing them into the wild." Hah! Their enclosure couldn't have been more than 5 or 6 acres, and was covered with the bones of donkeys they had eaten. This was near Taneen (sp?) in 2005.

Bill Quimby

Yup. Look at these savage wild beasts:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a8_1237628558

Beautiful lions in the video clip. I think I would just as soon shoot my house cat. The "hunt" would be the same and I could afford the full mount.
kh

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
SG Olds,

First, it's LionHunter, not lionhunter, and if you wish to address me directly, please have the common courtesy to get it right.

So go give it some more of your "extensive thought" and you might want to give some as well to starting a contest you can't win.

WOW......Looks like somebody missed out on some essential care as a young child!

MR.LionHunter why the all this aggression and anger ?
If you need a hug Saeed will have Walter give you a big warm snugly with a wet kiss included free of charge..

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
SG Olds,

First, it's LionHunter, not lionhunter, and if you wish to address me directly, please have the common courtesy to get it right.

Get over yourself.

x2

SG,
Do yourself a favor and research a reputable outfitter in TZ, Zim and go hunt a lion using the baiting method.

Than read your description again and judge for yourself if it is accurate.

"Provided the fenced area is large and the lion population is totally self sufficient in every way i will have no problem shooting a lion in that area"

I was in the large group that answered "yes" to this question. I did answer yes to the theory of someday there being a technically high fenced, but for all intents and purposes a "fair chase" hunt. Somepalce large enough that a pride was started from breeding stock, but the later generations were born inside the fence (which they have probably never encountered), but not a pen, and the lions have had to hunt and kill for themselves, not having livestock set out for them.

I did answer yes to this question, but I don't think there is such an outfit available today. If it was I'd hunt there in a heartbeat.

Caleb,

The Save Valley Conservancy is just what you described. So when are you booking your lion safari?

Mark

Mark,

if I had the extra money laying around (guessing about $50K minimum), and the conditions are as you say I'd book today. As is I have to save up, and possibly decide on priorities (LD Eland vs Bongo vs Mtn Nyala vs lion)

Caleb - The lion hunt in the Save Valley is just as Mark describes! I have personally hunted lion there, it was a terrific hunt. From my understanding, LION were not originally released in the Conservancy either, they made it in there on the own, and established the population without any inside help! You should call Mark and book a hunt. Lion hunting is the ultimate experience!!

Aaron
Global Hunting Resources

So what would the group think about an RSA High Fence Hunt for Buffalo?

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
So what would the group think about an RSA High Fence Hunt for Buffalo?

Not my cup of tea and certainly not half the experience of hunting one in a true wilderness area.

1 in 4 on the AR forum have no problem with shooting captive bred Lions. Personally i am surprised at how high the percentage of people willing to shoot such lions. Looks like the blight is here to stay - with 25% willing to support it - even if it is by virtue of the fact that they believe it is ethical.

If in the past you have been duped and now realize that your lion hunt was in fact a lion shoot then you have my pity and shame on the outfitter/PH who took you for a ride. If you are one of the guys who wants to shoot a captive bred, semi-domesticated donkey fed lion by all means do what you want to do, if it blows you hair back that is your business. BUT please, please do not for one minute pretend that you have hunted lion, rather call yourself a lion shooter.

Enough said

The problem I see here is that all hunts of a particular type are being grouped and judged together. All lion hunts, whether canned or not, are not the same the same way that all cars are not the same.

Hunting wild lions fair chase can be a brutal experience. I have spent my last 63 days in Tanzania without see a shootable male lion. These hunts involved hours and hours of driving over sometimes brutal terrain. On my last hunt we had one bait that was 4.5 hours from camp one way!

Would you shoot a lion that you chanced upon while driving down some road to check baits ? It isn't canned. Would you shoot them in the lights in Zimbabwe on private property?

No doubt there are many problems with canned lion hunting. I personally know one big shot that shot a lion in a cage. Other times the lions are starved and placed on some dead animal that they won't leave. I have heard stories of the lions being drugged. I personally do not agree with these activities. Further, it seems to me that it should be fairly obvious what has happened in these instances. Having said that, I also know of at least one ranch in which the lions are roaming an area that you could not walk across in one day. They must kill for themselves or they don't eat. They are tracked on foot. I personally do not believe that the latter should be grouped with the former.

While I personally have a problem with caged, starved or drugged lions, I don't see the latter in the paragraph above being in the same category. I don't see why people that would shoot a kudu raised on a game ranch in SA complain about these lions.

I too said I would hunt a lion in a fenced area IF it was big enough and the lions were self sufficient. I have twice hunted in the Save River Valley conservancy and this is what came to mind when I read the description. These lions are inside a fence and yet they are wild. The question as written did not state a canned hunt.

I think many of us that voted for this option as acceptable would vote against hunting a canned lion. I know I would. But the fence does not necessarily mean canned. Not when the fence is over a million acres.

Larry & Eyedoc, my personal definition of captive bred is a small (ie zoo style) fenced area, being fed chunks of meat over the fence and growing up on a staple diet of donkeys, old cows and dead horses only to be released one day into a bigger fenced area where they are shot sooner than rather than later. These lions are not part of a pride, have no learnt hunting skills and have never been able to fend for themselves. There is nothing wild about them and they are very habitiated to human activity and being fed by two legged beings.

In light of the above i dont think that every Lion hunt on a fenced area can be classified as captive bred,but that is just my personal opinion.

Last year when we were visiting Johanesburg we took some of the kids in our family to a Lion park outside Johanesburg. Some of the Lions (which by the way had phenomenal manes) were looking a bit old and tired so i asked the lady what happens to them when they get old. Her straight out immediate reply was that they sell them to the hunters to shoot! And when i asked he about the tigers she said the same.......

No wonder hunters get such a bad name in the public domain