Lion hunting is probably the most discussed,debated and contentious topic amongst African conservationists, both those that hunt and those that don't.It is without a doubt the most threatened of the Big Five in terms of both human encroachment on its habitat and public opinion on whether Lions should be hunted or not. There are many "leading" conservationists who would love to see all Lion hunting banned right across Africa. The captive bred/canned lion debacle in RSA has also drawn a huge amount of attention to the debate. As hunters we have got our work cut out for us to ensure that Lions remain on quota's throughout Africa. In light of the above please contribute to the poll below

Question:
I want to hunt a Lion

Choices:
But it is too expensive and i never will
I am saving and it is very important that i do one day get one
I may want to hunt a lion one day but it is definitely not a priority
Money is no object and i will shoot a lion

Question:
If you answered Yes to Questions 2-4 above please answer the following

When i hunt my Lion

Choices:
I will happily shoot a captive bred Lion as long as the hunt feels good to me
It is more important that i get my lion than how i get it
I will only shoot a free range wild lion
Provided the fenced area is large and the lion population is totally self sufficient in every way i will have no problem shooting a lion in that area
I will try to shoot a free range wild lion but if i dont succeed then captive bred is what it will have to be
Captive bred Lions are the way to go, i really couldnt be bothered with a wild lion hunt

Question:
I personally believe that shooting captive bred lions is

Choices:
Ethical
Unethical

 

Interesting so far

No choices for already did it the hard true way...

I have hunted lion as a PH. Something happened and I made a vow to never ever again have anything to do with any lion hunting, be it as PH, Hunting Outfitter or hunter - once I win a lotto! But I do not want to force my opinion on anyone else - it is a free choice and I respect lion hunters just as much as people who does not want to hunt a lion for whatever reason. I do however loath the captive bred and released lion shooting, particularly if the hunter is fooled, or at least they pretend to be fooled, into thinking that they are really 'hunting' a wild lion.

The poll could be improved by adding the two questions: Do you wish to hunt a lion, with Yes/No choices. The next question should be: Have you already hunted a lion? Yes/No.

Athird possible question: Were you fooled or conned, or was there an attempt to fool you, into shooting a captive bred lion masquerading as a wild lion? Yes/No

I'm sure the poll now will reveal that many who in the past thought they were lion hunters, will reveal that they in fact realize that they were mere "shooters" of a canned lion! Pity, but it is true!

In good hunting.

If you add the choice

quote:

I have hunted lion as a PH. Something happened and I made a vow to never ever again have anything to do with any lion hunting, be it as PH, Hunting Outfitter or hunter

What happened, shit your pants?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
No choices for already did it the hard true way...

Granted but a few years ago there was only one way and that was the hard true way, the rot of captive bred and canned hunts is a relatively new blight. The focus of the poll is what the future holds.

Andrew thanks for your suggestions, i tried to edit but it will mean that the votes are reset which is something i dont want to happen. Maybe you can put a more scientific poll/questionaire together and try again later.

I agree with Andrew on many levels! However, I would love to hunt free range lion on foot but I could never afford it today. Many years ago I could have hunted lion, and had little interest in doing so. My main object of hunting Africa has always been Cape buffalo to the absolute disregard for all other game there. Things change over time, and procrastination, put the lion out of my reach. That is too bad, and now the lion is in trouble and I don't wish to exasorbate that, not that I could aford to.

I think anyone who hunts lion today needs to think real hard about where and how he hunts them, and how many he hunts. I would support a ban on males for a time to give the lion a chance to come back. The quota could be a dry female lioness only for a time. This would have less impact on the population of lion, and a foot hunt tracking of a female is more dangerous than the same hunt for a male. Shooting a female out of a tracked pride, is more dangerous, IMO, than with the male, because of the likelyhood of a multiple charge from her sisters, when she goes down.

All this is simply opinion, of one who has not hunted lion, and may be scientificly flawed!

NOW! Leoaprd, just give me the chance!

I will consider a lion hunt if 2 criteria are met.

1. It is a hunt in wild unpopulated africa and
2. We don't hunt over gutpiles.

Folks - There seems to be alot, or at least a few misconceptions of Lions, lion hunters and lion hunting in general! Please know that I ask only the questions to get a feel for where you guys are coming from and where you are getting your opinions or info, not to be confrontational.

MacD37, you mention the Lion is in trouble. Where are you referring to? Many places the lion is doing quite well in fact!

Taking male lion off quota, and replacing it with female lion, how's that gonna work? Especially in places like much of Zambia & Tanzania for example, where Lion is often one of the top money generating species, money that is ALSO used to fund ALL of the ANTI-POACHING programs that protect all species, including lion! Remove the Lion from the quota in Zambia and watch how fast the entire Zambian hunting industry collapses, and the animal conservation & Anti-Poaching efforts come to a grinding HALT (ZAMBIA is only an example) I assure you, hunting Male lion on foot (tracking) is no less dangerous than hunting lioness on foot! Honestly, not that either is really all that dangerous in the first place. Exciting yes, extremely dangerous, no!

SG Olds - I never heard of hunting Lions over gut piles either???

Just trying to get a feel for other's thoughts, opinions!

Aaron

Can't answer the poll - see avatar pic.

Gut piles???

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Folks - There seems to be alot, or at least a few misconceptions of Lions, lion hunters and lion hunting in general! Please know that I ask only the questions to get a feel for where you guys are coming from and where you are getting your opinions or info, not to be confrontational.

MacD37, you mention the Lion is in trouble. Where are you referring to? Many places the lion is doing quite well in fact!

Aaron, you are absolutely correct there are places where the African lion is in no danger at all. Tanzania Game Trackers, has a real plan for conserving the African lion. They have been photographing all the lions in their concessions, and keeping track of them, allowing only 5 yr olds and older to be taken, and then only when they are not dominate males of a pride with many cubs. If a doninate male is taken from a pride with many cubs, and another male takes over, he will kill every cub in that pride, so the females will go into estrus, and he can put his own cubs on the ground. Satalite males over five yrs old do not present this SHOOT ONE, kill 15 sittuation.

quote:

Taking male lion off quota, and replacing it with female lion, how's that gonna work?

If you shoot dry females for a time, no cubs are lost as they are when dominate pride males, are taken, so that when you shoot one lion, one lion is all that dies!

quote:

Especially in places like much of Zambia & Tanzania for example, where Lion is often one of the top money generating species, money that is ALSO used to fund ALL of the ANTI-POACHING programs that protect all species, including lion!

The hunts for lion are real money generators, for sure, but we are not talking only about money here, but the best way to help the lion population.

quote:

Remove the Lion from the quota in Zambia and watch how fast the entire Zambian hunting industry collapses,

Lion hunting is a money machine, but for every lion safari booked anywhere. there will be fifteen Cape Buffalo/ plains game safaris, especially now that the average male lion hunt is in the $50K up range. I think the hunting industry can survive quite well with out the lion, and substituting the dry female for a time to let the populating grow, will only make the Lion hunters shoot a large female, in it's place if that is all that is available.

quote:

and the animal conservation & Anti-Poaching efforts come to a grinding HALT (ZAMBIA is only an example) I assure you, hunting Male lion on foot (tracking) is no less dangerous than hunting lioness on foot! Honestly, not that either is really all that dangerous in the first place. Exciting yes, extremely dangerous, no!

Just trying to get a feel for other's thoughts, opinions!

Aaron

The reason for my saying the Female lion is more dangreous to hunt by tracking is, that the females will almost always stick together, while the males will split off if pushed hard.
If a female is shot in the presense of the other females, and especially if there are young cubs there many times the females will charge in mass. If there are two or more males in a pride, they will usually split away from the females, and when one is shot the other will most times run. The danger with the male lion is when he has been wounded, because if you push after the wound, he will sooner, or later charge you. The females charge to protect the fallen female, and the cubs in the pride, with out being wounded, because that is their job to protect each other, and the young!
You get a multiple charge you are in trouble, far more so than with a single wounded male. I don't want either, but nothing is more dangerous that a group of mad females protecting their kids!

I could very well be all wet, but I've been wet before, and I didn't shrink. It strikes me that you have hunted lion a lot, from your post, while I have only observed others in the endeaver. In the final analysis, the above is only my opinion, right or wrong! However there is no denying that the African lion is in crisis, because of loss of habitat, and human encroachment, though there are pockets where they are in fine shape!

I should have been clearer. I mean bait when I say gut piles. I hope Botswana reopens some day but I bet I never hunt african lions.

MacD37 - Yes, I have hunted lion alot. In fact 13 times over the past 12 years, taking a total of 10 lions, plus I went with clients on 3 additional lion hunts! Not that it makes me an expert by any means, but I certainly have done it a fair bit.

Trust me, there is not a scenario I haven't heard of when it comes to lion conservation, lion hunting, shooting only 6 year old lions, saving the cubs, etc, etc, etc. Believe me, NOBODY wants to see the continued longevity of the lion more than me. For the sake of spending the rest of the week typing back and forth, I will stand on this. VIABLE, SUSTAINABLE sport-hunting is the single biggest factor in keeping the LION around for a long time, period.

You missed the point on the monetary value of the LION. It's not about the money the outfitter profits, it's about what a vast portion of the money does to help CONSERVE the lion, along with the game he depends on to survive. The money generated to support anti-poaching efforts through lion hunting is HUGE. Also, take away the Lion's value to the local tribes, communities, etc, and see how long they continue to see the LION as wanted member of the community. Without value to most of them, the lion is simply a pest, and they would work to eliminate him, rather than preserve him, guaranteed!!

I have numerous GOOD friends who operate as outfitters in Zambia & Tanzania, we have talked about this at great length. Removing LION from their quota, in most cases would be financially devastating!

Trust me, under no circumstances are lioness more dangerous than a 500lb. pissed of LION!

SG Olds - I too hope Botswana re-opens lion hunting, but I doubt they ever will. I have hunted lion in Botswana, it is without a DOUBT the ultimate lion hunt! There is nothing like tracking a big male lion, or in my case two of them. We got within 26 yards of two big males, they never knew we were there, til it was too late. Unfortunately however, most other places tracking lion would be virtually impossible! Without baiting throughout most other locations, your chances of success would be almost ZERO!

Aaron

Aaron, point taken!

Guys, lion hunting is expensive but its not impossible. I hunting in 05 in Masailand for 30 grand. Yes that is nothing to sneeze about but its far less than what you see some lion hunts for.
Bought it 60 days out. Got my lion on the 5th day.
This year you should be able to do that price or better.

Scott, it's not an option in the poll, but I would chose not to hunt lion. I can't explain why I have absolutely not one little urge to hunt lion, very similar to hunting grizzly bear, just dont want to.Now elephant, that is a hunt I truly look forward to.

In most Lion country where I've hunted them, stalking would produce nothing but blisters. One shouldn't be quick to disparage baiting for Lion until they have some experience at it. I baited a total of 32 days in two countries before I took my big boy. During that time I recall zero opportunity for a stalk.

Simply hanging a bait is no guarantee of anything but a piece of rotten meat. It means checking every bait daily, thus forsaking other hunting (except for additional baits), topping them, covering them and generally devoting 90-100% of your safari time to hunting the Lion.

I'd probably enjoy hunting lion, whether I got one or not, but I've never even considered it because most any hunt would be way out of my tax bracket. Assuming there are enough around to have hunts as part of the population management plan it's important for those hunts to have a lot of value. I'd guess that if their greatest value is in hunting them then they are less likely to be shot by poachers or simply as dangerous vermin. I'm sure they aren't as easily targeted as rhino or elephant, but outside patrolled high fenced areas I'll bet they are very hard to protect.

I shot my lion in 97 . I had a permit and just bumped into him and his girlfriend while hunting elephant. In those days almost every elephant hunt had a lion on their license. Jack Atcheson Jr. made sure I had one because he said, "you will be doing a lot of walking and you never know when you might see a lion". In those days a lion trophy fee was 3500 dollars. Zim isn"t really known for producing great maned lions but I was really lucky to get one. Things like that make you appreciate your outfitter. It is no doubt my best trophy after six trips to africa.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
Guys, lion hunting is expensive but its not impossible. I hunting in 05 in Masailand for 30 grand.

Hold of on that Swimming pool or new Car etc and a Lion hunt is still an option.
I hunted my Lion in the Zambezi valley by tracking which was hard and hot work but was great.
Ps, No shortage of lion in the Chewore are.

With nearly 80 votes the pole is looking very interesting, the most encouraging stat for me is that 72% of voters believe that shooting captive bred lions is unethical.

I also think it unethical to shoot captive bred Lions. But on the other hand dead is dead and to the Lion the end result is the same. Perhaps the only ethical or way to kill a lion in our politically correct society is through lethal injection.

Iam shocked at the amount of people that will shoot a caged lion.Theres just no sport in it.Any clown with a gun can shoot a caged lion.

I hunted lion in 2003 and 2006 both in Tanzania. Lion hunting is a grind. Hot sweaty work. These are my most prized trophies and to denigrate the event by blasting a caged raised tabby is simply disgusting to think about.

On the other hand we are a microwave society now. Why book a 21 day full bag safari, hunt your ass off and have a very good chance of going home empty handed, when you can pop over to RSA and blast you a kitty at a fraction of the cost and be done in one day?

I guess 28% of the respondents and I would have nothing in common and even though we all "hunt" there would be no common ground for friendship or mutual respect.

Jeff

Bunduki,
The 28% are not hunters. I would not want to be considered in the same breath as those egotistical, blood lust, parasites. There is not respect, no excuse, no rational reason for behaving in that manner. It is rape, it is greed, it is absolute self absorbed indulgence of the most base kind.

They are not hunters and barely human.

everytime i pick up a sporting gazette or a sci book or one of these hunting books that a PH has advertised in and you see one of these pics of a hunter with his lion that looks like its just walked out of carlton hair international.Does the client sitting there with such a bid smile realise how stupid he is.That every self respecting hunter is laughing at these big cage lion hunters.For those people out there that have shot a lion like this and brag to there friends how they shot the king of the beast.Shame on you

I didnt vote in the pole because i have no desire to shoot one. I support everyone that wants too hunt lions.

30 grand for a cheap lion hunt !!!!!!!!!
Not only would i have to save up for 6-8 years how would i ever get 3-4 weeks off from work.

It just goes to show you the vast variety in the hunting community.

Question 8 cannot reflect a real situation. The opnly way you could come close to reproducing the scenario you are trying to reproduce if one would accurately identify a wild lions territory and then fence it. Even then, territories change continously so at some point the fence would prevent that lion form being "self sufficient in every way". And even then, there is the chance of "cornering" the lion you are hunting against one part of the fence which would remove the "ethical" aspect of that hunt. You fence 1 million acres and you hunt only the lions that live in the core well away from the fence and then maybe.

lionhunter,

Just because you do not agree does not mean anyone "was quick to disparage" bait hunting. I myself have given it extensive thought and in fact have bait hunted other animals.

At the end of the day I would rather remember a lion hunt that was more than a game of patience, sitting on my butt. It is all about the quality of the memory which is why in the end that I hunt. We simply define "it" differently.

Gather your own memories as you see fit and I shall do the same.

SG Olds,

First, it's LionHunter, not lionhunter, and if you wish to address me directly, please have the common courtesy to get it right.

Secondly, you admittedly have not hunted Lion, so your opinion is exactly that, and, like some assholes, it smells. You are the one who used the term "gutpile". If you think hunting baited Lion is a simple matter of "sitting on" your "butt", then you didn't read my post. Lion hunting is always hard work and what you see in a video or T.V. show does not depict the reality of what leads up to the kill.

So go give it some more of your "extensive thought" and you might want to give some as well to starting a contest you can't win.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
SG Olds,

First, it's LionHunter, not lionhunter, and if you wish to address me directly, please have the common courtesy to get it right.

Excuse me but wasn't this a poll of each person's own opinon? Everyone had a chance to post their answers on the poll...what makes someone think they need to claim their's is the only pro view? If you want to do a lion behind wire do it if you don't want to do it don't...plain 'n simple.

Again, just as in the elephant hunt with a bow thread, we have people here who thinks anythig THEY would not do is wrong for others to do.

Why?

What happened to that old saying "when in Rome do what the Romans do!"

I thought the whole idea of actually going on a hunt is to enjoy the whole hunt. Not just the method of killing.

I have been hunting lion every year, for so many years, and have managed to shoot a few.

I have sat on baits for days, and managed to shoot some.

I have followed lion for miles and miles, and never managed to see them.

I have followed lions for 15 minutes, and shot two.

Which hunt did I enjoy best?

All of them. I have wonderful memories of watching lionesses and hyaenas feeding from the baits, and went back to camp empty handed.

I ave watched lioness and cups come to feed on the bait, and when they have left and the hyaenas came managed to shoot one.

I have followed lion tracks for almos a whole day - until they crossed into the next concession - and came back empty anded. But had wonderful memories of all sorts of animals we saw on that walk. Including seeing one of tebiggest warthogs, but were not able to shoot it as we were following a lion.

Trouble is some peple claim they would or would not do something here on the Internat.

In the field, howvere, they go and do the exact opposite of what they claim.

I have had first and experience of this.

For anyone to claim THEIR'S is the only way to hunt a lion, or any other animals, has not hunted enoug.

I have hunted lion over bait and by tracking them.

A tracking hunt is far superior, in every respect, to a hunt over bait.

That is NOT to say that there is anything wrong with a hunt over bait. I have done it and will do it again.

But a tracking hunt is the epitome of lion hunting. Nothing can compare to following a lion through the bush. Unless it is following several lion through the bush, and I have done that, too.

Lion are arguably the most frightening, and possibly the most dangerous, wild animals on earth. No sane man is without fear when tracking a lion.

We humans have been on their menu since we came down from the trees. Man-eaters are common even today. They kill and eat dozens of humans per year throughout their range.

Nothing has ever filled my blood with adrenalin like the grunting, coughing roar of a lion ahead of me in thick bush.

It focuses the mind!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I have hunted lion over bait and by tracking them.

A tracking hunt is far superior, in every respect, to a hunt over bait.

That is NOT to say that there is anything wrong with a hunt over bait. I have done it and will do it again.

But a tracking hunt is the epitome of lion hunting. Nothing can compare to following a lion through the bush. Unless it is following several lion through the bush, and I have done that, too.

Lion are arguably the most frightening, and possibly the most dangerous, wild animals on earth. No sane man is without fear when tracking a lion.

We humans have been on their menu since we came down from the trees. Man-eaters are common even today. They kill and eat dozens of humans per year throughout their range.

Nothing has ever filled my blood with adrenalin like the grunting, coughing roar of a lion ahead of me in thick bush.

It focuses the mind!

Great post.Encourages someone thinking about going on a GOOD lion hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I have hunted lion over bait and by tracking them.

A tracking hunt is far superior, in every respect, to a hunt over bait.

That is NOT to say that there is anything wrong with a hunt over bait. I have done it and will do it again.

But a tracking hunt is the epitome of lion hunting. Nothing can compare to following a lion through the bush. Unless it is following several lion through the bush, and I have done that, too.

Lion are arguably the most frightening, and possibly the most dangerous, wild animals on earth. No sane man is without fear when tracking a lion.

We humans have been on their menu since we came down from the trees. Man-eaters are common even today. They kill and eat dozens of humans per year throughout their range.

Nothing has ever filled my blood with adrenalin like the grunting, coughing roar of a lion ahead of me in thick bush.

It focuses the mind!

Great post!
How many lion did you shoot? How many times did you hunt for them?

If i ever hunt lion tracking is the only way I want to hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
Guys, lion hunting is expensive but its not impossible. I hunting in 05 in Masailand for 30 grand.

Hold of on that Swimming pool or new Car etc and a Lion hunt is still an option.
I hunted my Lion in the Zambezi valley by tracking which was hard and hot work but was great.
Ps, No shortage of lion in the Chewore are.

Thanks for this VALUABLE info.

mrlexma et al,

Since I am not a lionhunter I thought I would would run by you my understanding of canned v. baited lion to see if my understanding is correct.

My understanding of Canned Lion hunting is:

A male lion is raised in an enclosure in South Africa similar to pen raised whitetail at the Sanctuary or Bison on any number of ranches in the US. When the lion is of "shootable" age or mane size he is transported/sold to another High fenced South African ranch which could be big or small but likely not more than 10,000 acres. The distinguished SCI multiple hunt donating outfitter sells the hunt to a wannabee "LionHunter". The PH sets out baits and when a bait is hit a blind is built with a custom designed shooting hole and gun rest that fits his "LionHunter" who then sits and waits gun at the ready for his lion to turn up at a pre-measured 50 yards. If the lion does show up, "LionHunter" is faced with task of hitting a stationary 1 foot square target area from a solid rest at whatever the exact range is, say 52 yards as confirmed by lazer range finder.
I also understand that it may take days for this lion to show up in which case you are in for days of desperately hard sitting, maybe reading, maybe watching mongoose or ratel or whatever chew or attempt to chew the bait. I also understand that with luck the flys from the rotting animal will attract bee-eaters which you might get photos of. Eventually with luck Mr. Lion shows up and your PH gives you the OK. At this point I as the future "LionHunter" must suck it up and somehow hit a 1 foot square that denotes the lions kill zone with my very expensive custom rifle from a dead rest at a rangefinder measured 53 yards. If by some miracle I manage this shot on target, the lion will spin and run off. (With any luck the PH will not put in too many backup shots). After several roles of tums we will take the track as they say. It is probably during this time that I will be killed or severly mauled, but if my shot was true I will find my dead lion and I will then be a "LionHunter" and can tell all my friends everything about lion hunting because I will then be an expert.

My understanding of a wild lion hunt over bait is:

This is real lion hunting. Everyone who is anyone including many many expert lionologists at AR say this is the way to go. I do my research and book with a top shelf outfitter in say Zambia or Tanzania. The Outfitter will have extensive knowledge of his area which will not be fenced, he will know where his areas lions hang out and their travel routes. He will do extensive anti-poaching to keep the cattlemen out and to preserve a large number of antelope so the lions have food and he probably will make sure there is year round water so the lions do not have to leave. He will know that if the lions leave they likely get poisoned or otherwise dealt with by the people who live outside the hunting area. The lions I suspect know this invisible boundry also but I cannot say for sure.
When I show up the PH will take me to the range to make sure I am not a complete danger to myself and others with a gun and then the hunt starts. The PH will have me shoot some bait, maybe a handy buffalo, zebra or hippo. The PH will set the baits where he knows they are more likely to do some good. I hopefully will not be allowed to pick these spots or hang the baits myself. He will explain the difficulty of baiting a lion to both inform me, impress me and just in case it fails to work, he pre-warns me that there is no sure things. I know that if Mr. Lion refuses free food for a couple of weeks or so I am out of luck.
The PH will check the baits each day and will bring me along to make me feel like I am participating and to shoot any extra bait animals he may need for his plan. With any luck but mostly the PH's skill and knowledge of the lions in his area we will find a bait eventually hit by a "good" lion. My PH will build a blind with a custom gun rest and peep hole for me and the range to the bait will be measured and cleared. I will likely be looking at a well under 100 yard shot off a dead rest. My PH will explain the kill zone and that I am not to shoot until he signals me. He will determine when (early or late or both) we will sit quietly in the blind and I will follow his instructions. Depending in part on luck I may be in for a long hard uphill slog of sitting. I know it will be tough, but I think I am tough. If luck favors us the lion will show up and my PH will signal its ok to shoot. Then if I can make a dead rest shot at say 60 yards into the precise center of the 1 foot broadside kill zone, just maybe nobody will be killed on the follow up although they probably will. If I choose a good PH with a little luck and if I can make the shot when my part of the hunt comes, then I will thereafter be able to say I am a real "LionHunter".

That is what my research has led me to so far. How wrong am I and what other researches do I need to make?