I have been invited by friends in RSA to go kudu hunting with them...
What is the legality of hunting in South Africa without an outfitter? ( I am Canadian ).
Is this possible? Special permits?
Thanks!!

In Limpopo - as long as you're not paying anyone to hunt you don't need an Outfitter. You'll need a letter of permission from the landowner and depending on whether you're hunting on open land or a fenced game ranch a hunting license.

If there is any form of payment involved I.e money changes hands between you and someone else in lieu of the hunt and you don't use an Outfitter your hunt will be illegal.

If you're hoping to take trophies back home best you use an Outfitter.

Best,

Every Province has it's own game act and the requirements/wording varies but in most if not all, it's illegal for an overseas hunter to hunt without a PH accompanying him and a PH needs an outfitter to do his paperwork and without the PHs register form that needs to be countersigned by an outfitter being sent to the game dept, you almost certainly won't get export permits and if you actually get caught hunting you could possibly face a range of charges where some penalties might include jail time and/or fines and confiscation of equipment used during the hunt.

If you visit the PHASA website and have the patience to read them, you'll find most of the Provincial game acts there.

Quite honestly, RSA is chokka with young, inexperienced, newly qualified PHs all looking to get time under their belt and if your friends use their loaves, they should be able to find one that's willing to accompany you for next to nothing anyway and the landowner will almost certainly be an outfitter so you could probably have them arrange for you to hunt legally at minimal extra cost so it's hardly worth the risk.

Does it happen? - sure it does but if you do it, you need to keep very quiet about it for your own good.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
In Limpopo - as long as you're not paying anyone to hunt you don't need an Outfitter. You'll need a letter of permission from the landowner and depending on whether you're hunting on open land or a fenced game ranch a hunting license.

If there is any form of payment involved I.e money changes hands between you and someone else in lieu of the hunt and you don't use an Outfitter your hunt will be illegal.

If you're hoping to take trophies back home best you use an Outfitter.

Best,

Chris,

I've just checked the Limpopo act and Chapter 5 2nd para on page 57 says:

"Hunting of wild and alien animals by clients

50. (1) A client may hunt a wild or alien animal only –
(a) if the hunt has been organised by a hunting-outfitter; and
(b) under the supervision of a professional hunter.
(2) A hunting-outfitter and professional hunter –
(a) must ensure that the client hunts in accordance with this Act; and
(b) may give the client any lawful instruction which the client must obey at all
times"

Page 14 of the Act has the definition of a client as:

“client” means any person who is not normally resident in the Republic, who pays or rewards
any other person for or in connection with the hunting of a wild or alien animal"

I appreciate the OP is Canadian but it might be a good time to point out that had the issue applied to a US citizen the good old Lacey Act would also come into play.

So, according to that definition, if you dont pay anyone (even if you are from another country) - you are not a 'client'.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So, according to that definition, if you dont pay anyone (even if you are from another country) - you are not a 'client'.

(As I was taught to understand it) Only if you're a resident of RSA.

If you are not a resident then you need a PH & Outfitter.

That said, they don't define resident. It could be if you hold permanent residency or if you hold temporary residency etc.

Common sense would suggest however that a tourist hunter living outside the Republic is not a resident unless he also holds permanent residency and if he did, then he wouldn't be a tourist hunter.

I presume that South African resident hunters fall under Section 31 of the Act? Could non-residents not hunt under that section too (with property owners written permission). It doesn't seem to preclude them from doing so.

I didn't write the act and don't claim to be any kind of an expert on it but it's generally accepted that a local does not need a PH/Outfitter etc and that a non resident hunter from overseas does and that's how I was taught it should be interpreted.

FWIW, As I see it Chapter 5 2nd para on page 57 says:

"Hunting of wild and alien animals by clients

50. (1) A client may hunt a wild or alien animal only –
(a) if the hunt has been organised by a hunting-outfitter; and
(b) under the supervision of a professional hunter.

and if caught breaking saif Act, the consequences could mean at least a temporary stay in an RSA jail plus possible confiscation of equipment used for and (I think) also to access the hunt which could possibly include even vehicles etc and that to me ain't worth the risk....... esp as the cost of doing it properly could be fairly minimal.

All that said, I'm not the internet police and whilst my advice would be for overseas hunters to stick to the interpretation I've mentioned it's entirely up to them and whoever accompanies them.

I personally find it rucking fidiculous that 9 Provinces should each have a separate game act and to me it the country needs one act to apply everywhere in the country and whilst they're at it, they should make the bloody thing easily understandable instead of (seemingly) making it so damn complicated!

The way I read that - Chris Troskie's interpretation is spot-on!!

I believe that Canada (and Australia and other countries) have similar provisions to the Lacy Act too... but perhaps less punitive beurocrats?

Like I said, I'm not the internet police and quite frankly, I'm retired now and don't give a flying fuck what people do about it but I would suggest they contact PHASA and ask their advice at the very least.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
In Limpopo - as long as you're not paying anyone to hunt you don't need an Outfitter. You'll need a letter of permission from the landowner and depending on whether you're hunting on open land or a fenced game ranch a hunting license.

If there is any form of payment involved I.e money changes hands between you and someone else in lieu of the hunt and you don't use an Outfitter your hunt will be illegal.

If you're hoping to take trophies back home best you use an Outfitter.

Best,

Chris,

I've just checked the Limpopo act and Chapter 5 2nd para on page 57 says:

"Hunting of wild and alien animals by clients

50. (1) A client may hunt a wild or alien animal only –
(a) if the hunt has been organised by a hunting-outfitter; and
(b) under the supervision of a professional hunter.
(2) A hunting-outfitter and professional hunter –
(a) must ensure that the client hunts in accordance with this Act; and
(b) may give the client any lawful instruction which the client must obey at all
times"

Page 14 of the Act has the definition of a client as:

“client” means any person who is not normally resident in the Republic, who pays or rewards
any other person for or in connection with the hunting of a wild or alien animal"

I appreciate the OP is Canadian but it might be a good time to point out that had the issue applied to a US citizen the good old Lacey Act would also come into play.

Steve, I believe this Ordinance is applicable to "clients" as per the definition you made mention of. The way I understand it (and was taught) is that if a non-resident does not pay or reward another person in connection with the hunting of a wild or alien animal he is not (by definition of the law) a "client" and therefore this particular Ordinance is not applicable to him / her.

The term "reward" could become very technical in this instance and would be another discussion point altogether but if there is no reward whatsoever the hunter cannot be a "client".

I am not aware of other legislation that governs hunting of wild or alien animals by non-residents in Limpopo Province save for Ordinance 12 of 1983 which is the same Ordinance you referred to.

I'm no legal expert but the way I do understand the law is that an Act or Ordinance such as this can only become relevant if ALL the elements as per definition are present. I.e. if the person who hunts is not a "client" then the Ordinance does not apply to him/her.

Best,

Chris

(FWIW) This has come up before and last time it did, I checked with PHASA and was told they do need a PH/Outfitter but as you know I'm now retired and no longer a member but you probably are and are free to check with them if you wish.... I'd certainly be interested to hear if their advice has since changed.

As far as reward is concerned, I'd think that money must pretty much always change hands somewhere because the land owner would usually be paid something for camp use and animals and that to me is reward.

I appreciate a lot of people would like to hunt without a PH and/or on the cheap but it would of course mean PHs & Outfitters lose work/business & as I understand it means those hunters & indeed those who are also assisting might be breaking the law & could face serious consequences both in RSA & in the case of the visiting hunter, also at home.

BC Hunter,

Don't feel too badly about needing to hire an outfitter, a good one is worth his/her weight in gold. The rule seems fairly universal, eg: Americans must hire an outfitter in Canada for most, by far, big game hunts.

Just done some checking and in September 2011, a more or less similar issue but in the EC arose and it was discussed here:

PHASA's reply to me at that time was:

"Dear Steve,

Thank you for the mail. You are correct in the way you interpret the law, such hunts are illegal" etc

In the early 1980s, before South Africa's provinces adopted their "Outfitter/PH Protection Acts," I enjoyed great casual hunting with friends on their properties. I even sometimes borrowed their rifles and hunted with just one or two of their farm workers. No money changed hands, but I did take them hunting whenever they visited the States.

Unfortunately, those days are long gone. Just borrowing a rifle can get a foreigner and the rifle's owner in trouble.

Steve: Each of the 50 U.S. states has its own set of laws governing hunting and fishing. Most of us like it that way.

Bill Quimby

Quite a lot of us would be in the position of knowing landowners in RSA and may get the opportunity to hunt with the landowner.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

Steve: Each of the 50 U.S. states has its own set of laws governing hunting and fishing.

Bill Quimby

Damn but that REALLY is ripping the arse out of it!

The lawyers must have made a fortune!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Quite a lot of would be in the position of knowing landowners in RSA and may get the opportunity to hunt with the landowner.

I'm sure some do but if it's illegal, it'd be very silly indeed to admit to it on a public forum.

I get told I can't do things all the time... until you delve into it and find out that you actually can...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I get told I can't do things all the time... until you delve into it and find out that you actually can...

Matt

I'm not telling you what you or anyone else can & can't do. I don't care what anyone does & as I said previously, I'm not the internet police.

All I'm doing is point out what is legal & illegal but if you want to delve I suggest you start by contacting PHASA & ask them.

Oh BTW. I should have pointed out that when I had that communication from PHASA in September 2011, we were talking countrywide rather than just in the EC.

So what if I was just visiting a friend who had a large ranch that happened to have animals on it and my friend said "hey Hasher let's go and kill some of these springbuck so we can have more biltong"?

No trophies just culling for meat and my visiting a friend?

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
So what if I was just visiting a friend who had a large ranch that happened to have animals on it and my friend said "hey Hasher let's go and kill some of these springbuck so we can have more biltong"?

No trophies just culling for meat and my visiting a friend?

I'd assume that would depend on the RSA definition of resident/non resident etc but again, the people to ask would be PHASA.

FWIW, the usual definition of a client is basically a hunter from overseas who is a non resident of SA as defined by the Aliens Act of 1937.

Is a non-resident (visitor/tourist)to RSA or most any other country for that matter, legally permitted to handle (as in shoot) a firearm, let alone shoot game animals?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Is a non-resident (visitor/tourist)to RSA or most any other country for that matter, legally permitted to handle (as in shoot) a firearm, let alone shoot game animals?

No idea I'm afraid but I'd guess he might be if at a licenced range & under the supervision of a qualified range officer.

As I understand it, a non-citizen found anywhere in South Africa (including a hunting area or shooting range) in possession of a borrowed firearm without its licensed owner being with him will find himself in deep doo-doo.

Steve: If you had to contend with any of our federal agencies, you also would prefer state control of fish and wildlife. In practice, having 50 state wildlife agencies, each with its own rules for hunting and fishing, is not as confusing as you might think.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Is a non-resident (visitor/tourist)to RSA or most any other country for that matter, legally permitted to handle (as in shoot) a firearm, let alone shoot game animals?

As I have it a South African who is a "non resident" of e.g. Namibia may hunt in Namibia unaccompanied or do I have this wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
As I understand it, a non-citizen found anywhere in South Africa (including a hunting area or shooting range) in possession of a borrowed firearm without its licensed owner being with him will find himself in deep doo-doo.

Steve: If you had to contend with any of our federal agencies, you also would prefer state control of fish and wildlife. In practice, having 50 state wildlife agencies, each with its own rules for hunting and fishing, is not as confusing as you might think.

Bill

Hopefully I'll never have to find out buddy. LOL

I guess all countries/states have a few bizarre game laws and Portugal is no different either. Here we can night shoot for something like 3 nights either side of the full moom but at no other time and no light allowed anytime........ and I have to wonder why you can shoot a pest species such as a wild boar at close to full moon but no other time and why one can use night viz but not a spotlamp?

Then again Salazar made it law for every house to have a bidet so why should I expect logical reason!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Chris

(FWIW) This has come up before and last time it did, I checked with PHASA and was told they do need a PH/Outfitter but as you know I'm now retired and no longer a member but you probably are and are free to check with them if you wish.... I'd certainly be interested to hear if their advice has since changed.

As far as reward is concerned, I'd think that money must pretty much always change hands somewhere because the land owner would usually be paid something for camp use and animals and that to me is reward.

I appreciate a lot of people would like to hunt without a PH and/or on the cheap but it would of course mean PHs & Outfitters lose work/business & as I understand it means those hunters & indeed those who are also assisting might be breaking the law & could face serious consequences both in RSA & in the case of the visiting hunter, also at home.

Steve,

I am a member of PHASA and respect their views...

Yet, PHASA is not a governing body and its office is not staffed by people with an intricate knowledge of the laws that govern trophy hunting. I'm not saying that they lied to you. I am just interpreting the Ordinance literally and when doing so I come to the conclusion that a non resident hunter cannot be a "client" if he does not reward or pay someone to hunt in Limpopo Province. As if he/she is not a "client" then the Ordinance has no relevance to him/her.

I would strongly advise/ urge ANYONE who wants to hunt Africa to do so with a PH through a reputable Outfitter. That way, at least the client would have some sort of assurance that the hunt would be above board (legal to the extent that permits and paperwork would be in order and trophies may be legally exported)

But if I were not an Outfitter and decided to invite a friend from the States or wherever over to come and visit free of charge and hunt a kudu for the fridge while he's here.... As far as I'm concerned there is no law prohibiting me or him from doing so.

Chris

Like I said, I'm not the internet police & I don't care what anyone does but I certainly admire the courage & gung ho attitude of anyone brave enough to take your assurance over that of PHASA & not even bother to check further. (I might not however admire their intelligence though)

If I were in that position, I'd want the absolute bare minimum of a letter from PHASA or the Game Dept confirming what I planned to do was absolutely, positively, definitely legal.

Bottomline:
trophy cannot get out if an outfitter did not sign off on it. LEGALY.

No outfitter will sign off on it (any case reputable one) unless he knows where, and how the hunt will take place. Too much at risk.

This involvement will cost money

just my 2c's

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Chris

Like I said, I'm not the internet police & I don't care what anyone does but I certainly admire the courage & gung ho attitude of anyone brave enough to take your assurance over that of PHASA & not even bother to check further. (I might not however admire their intelligence though)

If I were in that position, I'd want the absolute bare minimum of a letter from PHASA or the Game Dept confirming what I planned to do was absolutely, positively, definitely legal.

Translated reply from Adri Kitshoff (CEO of PHASA):

Chris, you're right. If there is no remuneration of any nature. It is however a loophole that is abused immensely...

I want to stress again that I am not condoning illegal hunting. Hunting clients (by the definition of the Law) should not fall for the salesmen / non Hunting Outfitters who offer them cheap hunts.

But it is possible for non residents to hunt legally in my Province without having their hunts arranged by a Hunting Outfitter and without being guided by a PH.

Hope that settles it.

Best,

Interesting that Chris.... I was told differently in 2011 but there you go....... I have to wonder what effect that has on trophy export as well because as I understand it the taxidermist needs a copy of the PH register get the export permit from the game dept.

I also wonder what all those newly unemployed Limpopo PHs will do now people don't need their services because they can pay an overseas agent who can pay into an Outfitters overseas bank account so that no (visible) remuneration takes place.

Maybe I retired at a good time!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Interesting that Chris.... I was told differently in 2011 but there you go....... I have to wonder what effect that has on trophy export as well because as I understand it the taxidermist needs a copy of the PH register get the export permit from the game dept.

I also wonder what all those newly unemployed Limpopo PHs will do now people don't need their services because they can pay an overseas agent who can pay into an Outfitters overseas bank account so that no (visible) remuneration takes place.

Maybe I retired at a good time!

Steve, please refer to my initial post:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
In Limpopo - as long as you're not paying anyone to hunt you don't need an Outfitter. You'll need a letter of permission from the landowner and depending on whether you're hunting on open land or a fenced game ranch a hunting license.

If there is any form of payment involved I.e money changes hands between you and someone else in lieu of the hunt and you don't use an Outfitter your hunt will be illegal.

If you're hoping to take trophies back home best you use an Outfitter.

Best,

With respect, the matter you referred to dating back to 2011 had completely different case facts. This was a so called "self catered" hunt offered at a daily rate of $200 or whatever. There was remuneration involved and therefore whoever would have signed up for that hunt became "clients" according to the definition of the law... Different ball game.

There is nothing new to the Law and I don't believe PHASA has made a turnaround in this regard. They have always and still do condemn illegal hunting which has been going on for a long time and it is and has been a thorn in honest Outfitters and PH's flesh)

In short; I don't believe there will now suddenly be "unemployed PH's" as nothing has changed.

If someone wants to take the risk of "paying someone who pays someone to hunt something in Africa" they'd be stupid. They may save some money by not paying market related trophy fees and not paying market related daily rates but they'd risk not ever seeing their trophies again and they'd risk getting arrested.

Ultimately; what you pay for is what you get.

Perhaps it is better if hunters are aware of these provisions - so that they can be better informed and vigilant of the hunts being offered. Ignorance of the law isn't much of a defence.

Chris, has the facts as explained and taught to me and what I was tested in during my PH exam in Limpopo.

No remuneration, you are not a "client".

Gifts can certainly be exported. Get the proper paperwork in place. Landowner and CAE numbers and the taxidermist, shipper will send them on their way.

It is not a method to market hunts for sure. If money changes hands and on PH & Outfitter are involved you are illegally hunting.

Shooting a Springbok on your buddies farm, who cares. Purchase a Safari that is another question.