quote:

I agree they can be made to fire under the right circumstances. I believe a cocked gun is at higher risk for this than a gun that has been put on safe but cocked. Further, I have personally witnessed twice where a gun fired the instant the safety was disengaged. I will take my chances gentlemen.

Larry,

I am not arguing with you and you have a very basic misunderstanding of how and why that is so dangerous.

In a striker blocking system such as a M-70 or a M-98 or Weatherby Mark V or some other type firing pin blocking safety you CAN NOT place the safety on after the firing pin has been released. It is mechanically impossible.

If your rifle has trigger blocking safety that allows it to be placed on after the firing pin has been released you are in EXACTLY the same boat as not having a safety on at all.

The firing pin is relaxed and lying just off the contact point with the primer. Jar that rifle (drop it out of the back of the truck for instance) and it can very easily cause the firing pin to strike the primer with enough force to cause the rifle to fire.

Please feel free to handle rifles any way you want but I need everybody reading this to know is how irresponsible and dangerous carrying a rifle that way is.

The obvious difference being that if a rifle malfunctions and fires when the safety is released you the hunter should have had 100% directional muzzle control when that safety was released. If it goes off because the rifle was accidentally dropped there is no, none, nada, zero muzzle control and it's jokers wild on where that bullet is going to wind up.

Obviously if you have a safety engaged and it is a proper firing pin blocking type safety there is no way the rifle can fire from being dropped or jarred minus a severe mechanical breakage in the safety mechanism.

The AD you described sounds like you had some kind of major gum, junk and or dirt in your trigger mechanism or you bolt shroud area.

Does anuone have practical experience of a rifle going off when dropped with a round in the chamber but bolt not cocked?

[Quote]

Larry,

That is EVEN MORE DANGEROUS!!!

DO NOT carry a round in the chamber on a dead bolt! IE You are carrying the round in a chamber after you've relaxed the firing pin spring by holding the trigger back and closing the bolt on a live round. ....[quote]

It is the same as carrying a 1911 hammer down on a live round. A sharp blow to the muzzle or the hammer can overcome the firing pin spring and drive the firing pin forward with enough force to fire the round. It is very mechanically possible. This type of situation got Ruger sued into making the new model Blackhawks with the transfer bar safety. I had never even heard of dropping the firing pin on a live round in a bolt action rifle until I had some afikaaner friends telling stories about all the ADs they saw while teaching rifle work to local shooters/hunters. Do what you want and believe what you want. For me it is either live round up the spout and safety on or full magazine and empty chamber.

I know it's not necessarily smart, but I crry with an empty chamber as long as possible. Once I chamber a round, I either carry on the sling, or preferably in my left hand, cradled and pointed up, in a totally safe direction. Ive taken falls; rifle was never pointed undsafely.

Thanks Buzz for letting us know you visited Ant and that he is in good spirits. I wish him a speedy recovery!

Oh my! It has indeed been a tough year. Our small prayers for as easy a recovery and rehabilitation as possible.

Good to remember the huge destructive power of the rifles used for hunting DG. Accidents are avoidable.

Everything I have beena asked to do by the PH's most of the time go against all of the gun safety rules that I have ever learned or taught. It has and still does bother me to carry a chambered round with soneone in front of me. Safety, no safety, disconnecting sears or what, it just isn't right. I like the sling on my rifles but when I come to a tree branch that I have to bend over to get under, I unsling my rifle and hand carry it, conscious of muzzle direction. When I have used the PH's "African carry" I am always conscious of muzzle direction and am still nervous. I am more comfortable with the Blaser S2 where the sears are not engaged without cocking it with the safety like "knob" but still break open the action when crossing an obstacle. I feel so sorry for the Anthony but the hunter has to feel terrible. God give them both some peace of mind. What a way to ruin a hunt.

Good to hear Anthony has a strong spirit and is doing as well as can be expected.

Some of my thoughts on this matter, and lets not forget they are my thoughts.

When I'm hunting, anywhere, no one but me carrys my rifle unless I am physically incapable of carrying it. My rifle, my responsibility.

I have carried my rifle "decocked" with a round in the chamber almost forever. Never had any problems.

I have walked around Zimbabwe with my PH and 2 trackers for 21 days carrying a loaded rifle with the safety on, wasn't comfortable to begin with, but got used it.

Walking around in an area with things that can do you endless harm in a short space of time, is asking for trouble IMHO.

Don't use a sling at all when hunting. Have one in the pack, but don't use it when hunting anymore.

African carry is no more or less dangerous than any other carry position, it all depends on.....

If you have a firearm in your hands, in ANY state of readiness from loaded and cocked with safety off, to broken into 3 pieces, the muzzle of your firearm should not cover another person unless your intention is to shoot that person, period.

Most of the above goes out the window if an accident occurs, as it seems to have in this case.

Just my 02.

EDIT: And your finger stays off the trigger unless you intend to shoot. If you need to manipulate the trigger for any other reason, the firearm should be pointed in a safe direction (A safe direction is a direction in which ANY unintentionally fired shot shot will be safely stopped and contained, with NO human injury and at most, minimal property damage)

There is no such thing as an Accidental Discharge, it is called Unintentional Discharge. The firearm fires when you intend it to, or when you do not intend it to..not accidentally.

Godspeed in your recovery, Ant! I'll join the others in contributing to the "Boddington fund".

quote:

The firing pin is relaxed and lying just off the contact point with the primer. Jar that rifle (drop it out of the back of the truck for instance) and it can very easily cause the firing pin to strike the primer with enough force to cause the rifle to fire.

ManMagnum (I think that's the name of the South African magazine?) had an article several years ago about this type of carry. It did several tests and found that about every rifle would fire upon dropping it on its butt if in this (the above described) condition.

Surstrike is right and Larry and CF are wrong on this one. Magnum magazine did print the article by Charlie Haley about 10 years back- Charlie and I were called to the sceen.

Wealthy rancher in his late 50's shot through the heart with his own rifle which was lying about 20m from the body. Local police had correctly determined the shot was fired from some distance away (not suicide) and ruled foul play- It was just at the start of the farm invasions and there were many rumours. Long and short of it, Farmer carried rifle with chamber loaded but de-cocked and it takes a 'drop' of about 6" to fire a Mauser (or M70) in such a condition.

I have seen a couple of weatherby's that would reliably fire when you took the safety off, and several other makes that would fire as the safety was disengauged if the trigger had been pulled while the safety was on.

IF the rifle goes off when you are taking the safety catch off- that is a snag- but at least it is generally pointed down range and you know you have a faulty rifle. If it can go off with a relatively small knock then the type of carry is unsafe, or the rifle is unsafe and should be binned.

Ideally you want a rifle that will only ever go bang when you pull the trigger. An M98 (or M70) used as designed is like this. An FAL or M16 is the same - unless somebody has installed a 'civi' trigger. So is a Krieghoff or (say it quietly) a Blaser...Having a bullet hole through my hand from a rifle that went off when cocked and on safe (but pointed in an unsafe direction- into the palm of my hand) I fully appreciate that there are many 'other' rifle types out there.

quote:

I have carried my rifle "decocked" with a round in the chamber almost forever.

You have been lucky so far - as you probably know, the pin is 'resting' on the primer; it also happens to have some pressure from the spring.
Nothing more than an invitation to disaster - I would rather have it on the 'safe' position and it would do no harm to(or have a gunsmith) check the locking mechanism and trigger sear for wear and tear - one doesn't 'bin a rifle' for something which can easily be fixed.
Ultimately it all boils down to handling the firearm with common sense.

quote:

Farmer carried rifle with chamber loaded but de-cocked and it takes a 'drop' of about 6" to fire a Mauser (or M70) in such a condition.

It depends on how much sear engagement there is. Typically, a light trigger pull is gonna go off easier than a heavy trigger pull. 6" or 6' seems irrelevant, does it not? Is that not correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

Ideally you want a rifle that will only ever go bang when you pull the trigger. An M98 (or M70) used as designed is like this. An FAL or M16 is the same - unless somebody has installed a 'civi' trigger. So is a Krieghoff or (say it quietly) a Blaser...Having a bullet hole through my hand from a rifle that went off when cocked and on safe (but pointed in an unsafe direction- into the palm of my hand) I fully appreciate that there are many 'other' rifle types out there.

FWIW, (About 5 years ago) I had a Blaser that decided to develop the intermittant fault of discharging as soon as it was cocked and we were able to (intermittantly) reproduce the error in camp & at the gunshop.

To cut a long story short, the rifle was sent back to Blaser who had it for several months and eventually returned it with a note saying it's impossible for a Blaser to AD & the rifle is fine........ BUT they had replaced everything they could replace.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
I chatted with Ant who I have to say was in high spirits considering. He is a remarkable young man.


The facts were the rifle was on a sling it was dropped and the safety was ON and the rifle still went off. [B]Regarding walking with an empty chamber-PH or client- if I had followed those rules I certainly would not be around to be writing this.B][

.............And if that clienrt HAD followed those rules, Ant would still have both his arms!

quote:

quote:
Farmer carried rifle with chamber loaded but de-cocked and it takes a 'drop' of about 6" to fire a Mauser (or M70) in such a condition.



It depends on how much sear engagement there is. Typically, a light trigger pull is gonna go off easier than a heavy trigger pull. It depends on how much sear engagement there is. Typically, a light trigger pull is gonna go off easier than a heavy trigger pull. 6" or 6' seems irrelevant, does it not? Is that not correct?

Will,

While I agree that it's irrelevant how far you have to drop a rifle to make it fire. You are also misunderstanding the mechanics of why the rifle can and will go off so easily in a "decocked" and loaded configuration.

The trigger and the weight of the trigger pull HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!The trigger is out of the picture it's already been pulled and is already released, sear engagement, spring weight, creep, crunch and everything else to do with a trigger has already been done and is out of the picture.

The trigger has been released by holding the trigger back and gently lowering the bolt on a live round. The firing pin is in it's forward and fully extended position as is actually resting just on the face of the primer. In fact if you really think about it the pin is being held back and slightly under spring pressure by it's contact with the primer!

The rest is basic physics. Drop the rifle with enough force and the pin jams itself into the primer causing it to fire.

When you really think about it and consider the mechanics of it there isn't a sane logical person alive who would ever consider carrying a rifle in that condition.

MacD37

Yes he would but as terrible a story as Ants is you would be seeing a whole lot more stories of DEAD PH and CLIENTS squashed by this and that!I am afraid that it is not even a point worth discussing.

I will take the risk of safeties doing their job and clients and PHS practicing safe rifle handling vs hoping that an unpredictable possibly wounded elephant, lion or buff letting me walk past his hidy whole with an unloaded gun!

Put it another way hunting close to 20 years now I have experienced 2 AD luckily with no dire consequences. In those same 20 years I can assure you I have experienced a whole not more then 2 totally unexpected charges from elephants alone and if I had had an unloaded rifle I would not only have lost a limb but a life or two.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
When you really think about it and consider the mechanics of it there isn't a sane logical person alive who would ever consider carrying a rifle in that condition.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
MacD37

Yes he would but as terrible a story as Ants is you would be seeing a whole lot more stories of DEAD PH and CLIENTS squashed by this and that!I am afraid that it is not even a point worth discussing.

I will take the risk of safeties doing their job and clients and PHS practicing safe rifle handling vs hoping that an unpredictable possibly wounded elephant, lion or buff letting me walk past his hidy whole with an unloaded gun!

Put it another way hunting close to 20 years now I have experienced 2 AD luckily with no dire consequences. In those same 20 years I can assure you I have experienced a whole not more then 2 totally unexpected charges from elephants alone and if I had had an unloaded rifle I would not only have lost a limb but a life or two.

Point taken! I understand your position,as a PH but you are not a client that you seldom know before he hits camp!

I wish Anthony a fast recovery and a return to what he loves.

In my former life, I walked thousands of miles in pursuit of "dangerous game" with various loaded weapons in all types of terrain, weather and visibility. There is no excuse for anyone to "flag" another person with their weapon or cause an AD. (flagging is the unintentional pointing or passing of a firearm at another person because of negligent handling.) Where I come from, flagging or an accidental/negligent/unintentional discharge will get you boarded and probably sent down the road to a conventional unit. That is after possible verbal and physical abuse.

Safe firearm handling and muzzle awareness can never be compromised; no excuses; zero tolerance.

I have hunted with several PH's. A couple used the "Africa Safe" method, i.e. closing the bolt on a live round with the trigger pulled so as not to cock. One of those PH's was a mechanical engineer who refused to believe that such method was dangerous. I put a small piece of plastic tape on a casehead and chambered it in the Africa Safe manner. The poor fellow just about shit himself when I showed him the firing pin impression on the tape.

He is not unusual. In my observation, PH's tend to not well understand the mechaics of firearms and do not take good care of them. Of course, clients can also be guilty. I spoke with a hunter who had his bolt freeze up on a very expensive Asian sheep hunt. The fellow had no clue as to how the bolt could be disassembled with no tools. (It was M70.)

If you are going to carry a firearm, you damn well should understand it.

A client has just 'amputated' a toe with his .500NE...Getting to be a rough season.

At least the client knows who is at fault on this one (he pulled the trigger)..Been two years since that appy blew a toes off with his Lott...Gun accidents are actually far more common than many folk realise but very seldom is anything worse than pride seriously hurt.

This was posted on AH last night. Thought I would share:


My name is Mark Howland and I am the Father of Anthony who was injured in the accident on
Wednesday last week and had to have his right arm amputated as a result.

He was looking for a warthog for his client when the accident happened. I understand the client dropped his weapon while crossing a small stream and the safety failed and resulted in an AD which hit my son in the elbow from behind. The round was a large calibre soft nose and virtually separated the bottom of his arm from the top.

At the time he was about an hour and a half away from his vehicle which was a further hour and a half from the closest airstrip. Under instruction from Anthony, his staff fashioned a stretcher, as well stemming the bleeding and carried him out to his hunting vehicle. He was then driven to the airstrip by his driver. They arrived at the airstrip to be met by a medical air rescue service with a doctor in attendance. He was then flown to Harare and admitted to hospital. His arm was immediately amputated and he was transferred to the hospitals high care unit.

The wound was inspected on Friday and was found to be healing nicely. He has been recovering
Quickly and was moved from high care to a general ward on Saturday. Today, Monday he will be having
The wound sown up and we hope to have Anthony home later this week.

Many thanks for your time. I hope this slightly fuller account of the accident clears a few things.
Kind regards,

quote:

When crossing anything whether it be a fence, rocks, a stream, etc the gun should be handled differently. A double should be broken open. That is a basic rule drilled into me many years ago.

All shooters regardless of age should be made to memorise 'A Father's Advice'

If a sportsman true you'd be
Listen carefully to me. . .
Never, never let your gun
Pointed be at anyone.
That it may unloaded be
Matters not the least to me.

When a hedge or fence you cross
Though of time it cause a loss
From the breech the cartridge take
For the greater safety's sake.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
A whale of a difference between quail hunting and DG hunting.
Some people think otherwise.

fujotupu,what has accidently shooting some one because you didn't break open or unload a double rifle before hopping a stream got to do with quail hunting? The arm would have been lost no matter what they had been hunting, simply because that old rule applies no matter what you are hunting!

There are times when firearms need to be handled differently LIKE HOPPING ACROSS A STREAM, or climbing over an obstacle, even when hunting elephant or buffalo!

Every PH or Guide I've hunted with for the first time cautioned me to load the magazine of the bolt rifle and to close the bolt on an empty chamber when we leave camp, and at some point along the spoor, I have been instructed to load the chamber, safety ON and carry in my hands,from that point on. The PH did the same for the final stalk or when going into very tight bush. Not that he needed to tell me that, but he did not know me, so took the time to make sure this was done.

The animal I'm hunting being dangerous does not negate safety rules. The firearm is dangerous all the time, not just when hunting quail!

I can assure you Buzz can work a bolt to put a cartridge in the chamber so fast you would not see it , only hear the clicks a millisecond before you heard his first shot in any surprise attack! That man is deadly fast with that big Ruger! I think Buzz would admit to you that he is very cautious of a new client he doesn't know till he sees how he handles his rifle, and I'm sure he isn't shy about telling him how and when he wants the client's rifle to be loaded, and handled! I've seen Buzz's work with Mike Jines,and others and I think he will tell you that Mike needs no instruction on firearms handling. I’ve personally seen Mike handle his rifles and I certainly would not venture to give him any advice!

The important thing here is Ant's recovery and to hopefully make readers here more careful, because that is also important!

Someone in this thread made the comment about seeing many double rifle hunters commiting some real poor handleing, and I have to agree, I've marveled at that myself! I think also this is, as the writer mentioned,because these fellows in a lot of cases have little experience with hunting with double rifles. The double rifle is a zebra of a different stripe, and has it's own special handleing problems that are far different than with a bolt rifle. In this respect the Krieghoff double rifles are one that negates some of those problems in regard to safety!



....................................................................

I think he was referring to the comments about carrying an empty chamber when DG hunting.

I thought the rule was unload or break open the gun when crossing a fence etc / pass the gun over before crossing yourself.

MacD37:

My comment regarding quail hunting was to differentiate/compare between bird shooting and DG hunting.

If there is an instance of a precarious crossing or climbing to be done I will pass my rifle to the nearest person then retrieve it once the obstacle has been negotiated.

My law is no chambered round in camp or on the vehicle. Alighting from the vehicle and proceeding on a stalk means you're on a business errand - jacking a round up the spout as you're about to conclude business is not on my list.

That's how it has always been and continue being as far as I am concerned. Everyone else can do as they please.

I quote Buzz:
""I will take the risk of safeties doing their job and clients and PHS practicing safe rifle handling vs hoping that an unpredictable possibly wounded elephant, lion or buff letting me walk past his hidy whole with an unloaded gun!""

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
There is such thing as an accidental discharge.

It's carelesness from either the gun builder or the person carrying the weapon.

I agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
I thought the rule was unload or break open the gun when crossing a fence etc / pass the gun over before crossing yourself.

It would more than likely be a rule typically applied on English pheasant and grouse shoots - not a rule/law in Africa.

Does anyone know if Anthony has a family to support? I'm just trying to think through the enormity of the adjustments that lie ahead for him, not only ghost pain, therapy and other medical/physical issues but rebuilding career plans. Sounds like he was a wonderful and promising PH. They do amazing things with orthotics these days.
On this general subject, I am simply amazed that more PHs aren't injured from behind by clients. How many videos have we seen where the client's bore is sweeping the PH's bum on a regular basis, especially when crawling?
When you think about it, a PH's job is to hunt in close proximity with stranger after stranger whose gun-handling habits are completely unknown.

I have just been trying to get around all this since the news broke. What a terrible accident. I don't know Anthony but from what I can gather he is a determined and mentally strong young man. He will need to dig deep in the months and years ahead for sure, but will be able to draw inspiration from other guys some of us know who have suffered similar injury.
Wishing him all the best in his recovery and hope to hear he's up and about and getting involved again soon.

David

Bill

Ant is not married and no kids as far as we all know! Just chatted with him and they operated on him to close up his arm. He says that its darn painful at the moment as you could imagine but that he expects to be out in a few days. Cheers Buzz

Good to hear he may be out of the hospital soon.

Any firearm with a round in it's chamber can be made to fire. Safetys that block the sear are better than those that block the trigger.
Bolt guns with sear blocking safetys are stronger than double rifles or rem 700 actions. I find doubles to be easier to handle in a safe manor, easier to break open and get back in action. There is only one true safety and that is muzzzel control, even during a fall you must maintain muzzel control at all cost. You never sweep your crew period!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think he was referring to the comments about carrying an empty chamber when DG hunting.

I think several people here have misunderstood my voicing my preference for empty chambers as a safety measure.

Because of this suspected misunderstanding, let me explain a little better.

It seems most have taken that to mean I don't load the chamber till we are on a buffalo, and that is not the case at all.

As was stated by one of the PHs in this thread, If using a bolt rifle I load the magazine, and leave the chamber empty and place the rifle in the rack in the hunting car. When buffalo tracks are found crossing the road and it is determined that the spoor is fresh enough that we might be able to catch to them, I retrieve my rifle from the hunting car, and if the country is fairly open I still do not chamber a round, and may carry the rifle on a sling or PH carry. If’, however, the bush is tight or the spoor is HOT, I will then chamber a round, safety ON and carry the rifle in both hands port arms.

With a double rifle it will be completely unloaded till the bush gets tight or the spoor is hot, then it will be loaded safety on, and carried in both hands till the buffalo are sighted.

Gentlemen I’ve around the barn a few times at my age and though I’m quite old I do not have a death wish. Heaven is my home, but I can assure you I’m not homesick. So you can be assured when an unexpected charge from his HIDEY-HOLE as BUZZ puts it, my rifle will be fully loaded because the only way the buffalo would have a HIDE-HOLE is if we are in tight bush or among large rocks. In that type country my rifle would be ready to do battle. I hope this clears up the empty chamber thing, if not well…………that’s alright because what I do has no effect on what others choose to do!

..........................................................................................................

JAO, no dog in this fight. I have never hunted anything that could be remotely considered DG, however even non-DG situations there is a point where either the guide or PH needs to tell the clients to chamber a round or 2 inthe case of a double, or the client needs to be paying enough attention to what is happening to know when to get a shell into the chamber/chambers.

The thing that needs to be concentrated on right now is prayers and Best Wishes for recovery for both the PH and the Client. Again, JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The thing that needs to be concentrated on right now is prayers and Best Wishes for recovery for both the PH and the Client. Again, JMO.

CHC, you are absolutely correct! It seems we/I got off track here, and maybe that was my fault, if so, I apologize for that. We should have started another thread even though the subject is a valid one considering the number of these things happening this year!

Certainly we all feel very sorry for ANT's injury, and I'm sure the client is second guessing his own actions as well, and we all feel his pain too. I can’t imagine being responsible for a thing like this, but nobody is immune. In any tragedy there is always a benefit in learning what NOT to do in similar situations.

Now I will leave this thread and move on to other things! ........................BYE!

I heard the tragic report over a week ago from friends that were headed to visit/hunt with his outfitter. The word I received was it was a 500 NE Double, was dropped and went off!
Does anyone know if the PH is related to the famous old Elephant hunter and now author Richard Harland?
With the miracles of modern medicine and the prosthetics now developed (unfortunately) for our badly injured troops coming home, perhaps he will be able to continue his chosen professsion with one of these devices??
Let's not be too critical until we know all of the facts...it certainly was a horrible accident not intentional and hopefully not reckless!
My thoughts and prayers to all involved.

Ant, So sorry to hear of this terrible accident.I wish you well buddy and a speedy recovery.All our thoughts are with you during this time.

Ant - great to see you in such high spirits.

He was rearing to get back out when I saw him - You are in our thoughts and prayers Ant!

One of his quotes that made us smile with him -
"that double rifle killed an elephant and a buffalo on that safari - it however didn't get me...!"

See you tomorrow brother!