Would you hunt a client who showed up a rifle which was missing its safety? Say the safety had been removed and you were hunting dg and pg. Would you let the client hunt with that rifle or would you make them use something else? Just wondering. Thanks for the replies.

Brian

If the rifle is fully functional otherwise, and mechanically sound, yes, I think I would. He would just be kindly asked, and moved to load when we are about to shoot...IT will also be constantly in the back of my mind that he does not have a safety. Remember it is not the weapon that fire itself, but the man operating it.

I want the client to shoot what he shoots the best, and that would be his own rifle.

It is an interesting one...why the thread? Has this happened to you?

It is not a very easy question to answer. It depends on a lot of things. The person involved will give the answer. What is his attitude towards responsibility and safety. What terrain we are hunting in?

If I agree, a round will only be chambered once we see the animal and from then on he will walk infront with me closely behind him.

A good rule for me is also that the client and myself always declare the status of our rifles to each other when we get on a vehicle, enter the camp, go through fences etc. Declaring the status means telling the other person and physically opening the bolt and pushing your small finger in the chamber.

After spending some time with a person on the shoot in range, you get an idea of his rifle handling skills, for instance the position of his trigger finger while he is taking aim. If it is on the trigger I will get very nervous and I will doubt his safety. A persons rifle handling skills will give the answer.

The basic reply is: "Yes!" It is the client's hunt and he who pays plays the tune, well mostly.

The reason as to why no safety will have a marked influence on my behaviour and handling of the client.

If cleint gets to camp is is absolutely amazed and start accusing some airlines for messing with his rifle, that he is sure had a safety when packed, and that his rifle was well maintained and cared for, that is one scenario.

Client may take rifle form the case for first time in camp and make clear statement to PH: I detest safeties. IMHO they give a false sence of security. My firm belief is that safe handling is much more important than having a mechanical device to make otherwise unsafe actions appear safe. Since many years ago I have made it a rule that I do not ever use or rely on a safety. Whenever possible I even remove the safety from each rifle that I ever hunt with. The safety on this rifle is ME - I who handle, only load when ready to shoot and point the muzzle in a safe direction at all times!". Well, that's quite a different scenario?

Another client may take rifle from case, get ready to shoot at sighting in range and say: "Oh shit! My safety's gone. How am I ever going to handle the rifle safely without a safety?" I would be much more careful with this last fellow than the former one.

Please now tell the story behind the question, ifthere is one?

In good [safe] hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

Perhaps the better question is:

What would you do if the client showed up with a workable 45-70 rifle, had a IED strapped to his chest, a couple of electrodes protruding from his neck, and wearing an orange baseball cap that says "I LOVE SADDAM"?

Actually I was just asking because I just acquired a cz full stock 9.3x62 and the safety is not very user friendly. I have already inadvertetly put the safety on while cycling the bolt about fifty times in a few hundred cycles. I never use the safety feature on a rifle when I am hunting in NA. So I was just wondering what some African PH's would think if I showed up in camp and had a rifle that didn't even have one. I would hate for Ganaya to think I was planning on shooting him in the arse!

BWN,

1. Why not convert to a 2 pos swing safety?

2. Robert Ruark's safety fell off so he walked around with the bolt handle in the up position. I think I would just walk around with an empty chamber.

I usually keep a round in the chamber. There are circumstances where I leave the chamber empty until go time. My safety is between my ears (I know that sounds cocky) and that is what I rely on. I would not be opposed to a ph who said no problem but keep the chamber empty till I say. No problems.
I just thought it would be an interesting topic.
I am sure that given enough time I could get used to the safety on this gun, by why should I if the only time I am ever going to use it is whenever I can beg, steal or borrow enough money to go hunting in Africa?

500
I though about the wing safety, but then why spend the cash if it isn't going to get used anyway?

With all due respect, this is just nonsense. Walking around with a loaded rifle with no safety; how bad can rationalization get?

I have posted the cure to accidentally engaging the safety on a CZ. If you are interested you can search for it, or go over to www.go-on-safari.com

Well Mr. Stewart with all due respect, exactly how long have you been a ph? I cannot seem to find that information. How many clients have you guided/hunted with in Africa?
Yes, I am sure you have posted a cure because, as we all know, you are the foremost expert on all things hunting and rifle related.
By the way, how are book sales? See I find it to be a great deal of nonsense that you feel it necessary to pimp your book with every post you make. But, to each his own.

Here is a plug for you (don’t say I never did anything for you) –

Once you’ve been amongst them, there is no such thing as you not knowing everything.
"Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $55 postpaid, P.O. Box 104, Spring Hill, Kansas 66083

No! Maybe in a blind.

300Mag:
Would you go hunting in NA with a total stranger who doesn't use a safety? I have seen two PHs who don't use the safety but rather keep the bolt partially raised. That makes me nervous as hell!

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
I usually keep a round in the chamber. There are circumstances where I leave the chamber empty until go time. My safety is between my ears (I know that sounds cocky) and that is what I rely on. I would not be opposed to a ph who said no problem but keep the chamber empty till I say. No problems.
I just thought it would be an interesting topic.
I am sure that given enough time I could get used to the safety on this gun, by why should I if the only time I am ever going to use it is whenever I can beg, steal or borrow enough money to go hunting in Africa?

Wow
You just thought it would be an interesting topic?
So why did you attact Will? Was it because, deep down, you knew that he was right? Will may be the only one with the balls to say it, but he is right, you are wacky if you think a round in the chamber with no safety is even a topic to be debated. What if a small tree branch hits the trigger, or a blade of grass, or???????????

Wow.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
[
Wow
You just thought it would be an interesting topic?
So why did you attact Will? Was it because, deep down, you knew that he was right? Will may be the only one with the balls to say it, but he is right, you are wacky if you think a round in the chamber with no safety is even a topic to be debated. What if a small tree branch hits the trigger, or a blade of grass, or???????????

Wow.

Jason

JBROWN, you just beat me to it! I was about to say that if he is in the bush while I'm there please let me know where, so I can be on the other side of the concession!

BWN300Mag, Why can't you learn to use your safety? I simply can't see the reason for your not learning to use a safety, and if not, then I suggest you leave the chamber empty till you get ready to shoot, or get another rifle. Once a bullet flies, you can't bring it back, and the poor bastard it hits, is in bad shape, if alive at all!

Don't tell me you can always control where your rifle is pointing, because you can't! If you happen to trip, and fall, you main reaction is to keep from bending your nose on the ground, not where your rifle is pointing, and I think you know that.

It is amazeing to me, that anyone in the world would admit he couldn't learn to use a safety, that has been used successfully, by hundreds of shooters world wide. Then to suggest, that it is, somehow, safe to be around you with a rifle's chamber loaded and no safety, is just short of insane, IMO!

You picked a good rifle, that is a definite up-grade,from your other rifle, if the BWN in your screen name indicates BROWNING !

No flame, I just can't seem to get it sraight in my head,how your thought process works, in this case!

AND NO! I'm not a PH, but I die, if shot, the same way a PH does!
..........Damn!!!!

quote:

You picked a good rifle, that is a definite up-grade,from your other rifle, if the BWN in your screen name indicates BROWNING !

Mac -- I believe BWN is Perry/PWN375 of DRSS fame's brother, so not a Browning.

I have hunted with my safety off quite often on final, close range stalks, or final, close range follow ups of dangerous game animals.

I keep my finger off the trigger and outside the guard - until. In my view, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that practice, assuming that one follows the golden rule of gun handling and keeps the muzzle always in the right direction.

Rifles are not mysterious death machines that go off by themselves and deliver bullets in directions they are not pointed.

Would all the crazies please line up on the left.

Too many people out there (even some who should know better) are apparently afraid of guns.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I have hunted with my safety off quite often on final, close range stalks, or final, close range follow ups of dangerous game animals.

I keep my finger off the trigger and outside the guard - until. In my view, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that practice, assuming that one follows the golden rule of gun handling and keeps the muzzle always in the right direction.

Rifles are not mysterious death machines that go off by themselves and deliver bullets in directions they are not pointed.

I as well, but that is a lot different from walking around the woods days on end with no safety, and the chamber loaded. Even that is not especially bad, if alone, but on Safari, who is ever alone? There are rarely less than three along with yourself, with individuals changeing places every ten minutes. Certainly one loads the chamber in the final stalk, but not for hours of walk about! I guess if it doesn't bother you, then do as it suits you, but not around me, please!

Here in the Free State where I do most of my hunting there is absolutely no need to load the chaber until getting to the final stalk stage. Animals are most often seen from literally miles away. Then you plan the initial approach to get to , say 500 yards or so, from the animals. It is now that the final trophy evaluation is made and the final stalk planned. From now on the client goes in front and trackers and other stay put until needed. Now, or even when we are quite a bit closer a round may be chambered, as with most rifles this may be a bit noisy and can give away the game. I personally like the client to keep his bolt open, but the round chambered until setting up for the shot. Only when properly set up, on shooting sticks or whatever other rest is to be used, do I tell the client to close the bolt, which is a very quiet operation in most rifles. A safety is only used when something happens, like the selected trophy moves or changes postition, that requires the client to move his shooting set-up. Even then an open bolt is preferred over a safety ON. Part of the reason for this preference is that I know that very few rifles can actually fire a round with an open bolt. I can also at a glance see that the bolt is open. But there are endless variety of safeties in rifles, all of which I simply cannot know or easily see by looking at the client's rifle if the safety is on or off.

Hunting in dense bushveld, where quiet walking can get you well withing a distance where the game WILL hear even the best attempt at quitely chambering a round before you even see the game. Here a safety is a must, or the hunter must be prepared to risk loosing some shooting opportunities through game hearing him chamber a round.

But all other aside, I basically agree with BWN300MAG that the best safety is the one between the ears!

But to repeat the answer: Yes I will hunt a client with no safaty on his rifle, but my handling of the situation would be quite different than if he actually had a safety on his rifle.

In good [safe] hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

Sorry for the tardiness of this reply, but I have been either on the road to, from; or in Wyoming, since Friday - no internet access, no cell phone signal, it was great. So here we go.

LJS -
It would depend on the person, their background, their attitude towards it, etc.

Jason -
Wow, I thought it would be interesting to hear what a seasoned ph had to say. I was not attacking Will, I was merely respnding in kind. Will is a big boy he can stand up for himself if he feels he is under attack. Deep down (and outwardly) I can’t stand Will, he is right once in a while and in those rare instanaces I give him due credit. As for your opinion of me, see the comment posted a little later in this response from my experience with Ray Atkinson. If you use the nut between your ears, you keep aware of small branches, and keep the trigger guard covered where is the problem? And by the way, I never asked for a debate, just the responses from some ph's here. If a blade of grass trips your trigger, you may want to get that looked at. It may be set too light for safeties sake!
A wise man named Ray Atkinson told me last year at DSC:
"If they don’t like what you have to say - Fuck em...99% of them don’t know what the hell they are talking about anyway... " That may not be his exact words (there was lots of drinking going on between me, Pierre, him, and the honorable JudgeG at the time) but that is basically the gist.

MacD37 -
I never said I couldn't learn to effectively use the safety. I also never said when I am hunting with others I carry a loaded, ready gun. I said sometimes I do - like when I am hunting alone. For the record, my main reaction, the thing I am most concerned with if I fall while carrying any firearm is to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. So, yes I can control where my gun is pointing at all times, it is called being aware of ones surroundings. If others cannot do this, maybe they need to spend more time working on it rather than behind a cpu offering advice. My thought process works like this - I know how to handle a firearm, I do it safely, I pay attention to what is going on. I do not rely on machines to provide for my safety or the safety of those around me. Relax, I will be sure to never ask you on a hunting trip.

MR -
Correct, that is who I am (if he will own up to it at this point) and BWN happen to be my initials.
“I keep my finger off the trigger and outside the guard - until.†- Gee so do I.

Will -
I guess you will be at the head of that line of crazies - every team needs a captain, yes?

Andrew McLaren -
Thank you for all your posts and the useful information they contain. It is appreciated.

In closing let me say, damn people lighten up! I have a gun with a safety I do not particularly favor. I was not trying to start any controversy and get everybody up in arms. I just wanted some responses from some ph’s which I got.

By the way, I was in Wyoming pronghorn hunting with three other people. Rarely were we more than ten feet from one another and low and behold, my gun was loaded and off safe most of that time and nobody got shot. I guess we squeeked by this time.

quote:

If you use the nut between your ears, you keep aware of small branches, and keep the trigger guard covered where is the problem? And by the way, I never asked for a debate, just the responses from some ph's here. If a blade of grass trips your trigger, you may want to get that looked at. It may be set too light for safeties sake!

The grass is different all over africa, but the places that the grass grows tall, it also grows thick. I can tell you from experience that there is some stuff in Zimbabwe that would have no problem tripping a trigger. As far as keeping the trigger guard covered, I doubt that you could do that for long.

Having the safety off on the final approach is fine. If you want to hunt with no safety just leave the chamber empty. That is what a lot of hunters do here in the US.

If you really want to know what PHs think of your plan don't ask them here on a public forum where they have to act diplomatic if in front of all these potential customers. Send them an email. I would bet you will get some interesting replies.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:


A wise man named Ray Atkinson told me last year at DSC:

"If they don’t like what you have to say - Fuck em...99% of them don’t know what the hell they are talking about anyway... "

I wonder if he still felt that way after we all had our say about that hunt.

Well I hunted with a PH's rifle a while ago and it did not even had a safety. I didn't find it too hard to chamber a round as required, or chamber one leaving the bolt open until required to be closed. That just what he asked me to do. So I guess that PH wouldn't have a problem.


***

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
A wise man named Ray Atkinson told me last year at DSC:
"If they don’t like what you have to say - Fuck em...99% of them don’t know what the hell they are talking about anyway... "

I used to check which direction the wind was blowing to see what Atkinson's views or opinion was from day to day. Or maybe just try to work out what he was trying to tout (ie sell) to in the current post at the time.

PS
Isn't their a quote something like:

"You can fool most of the people most of the time, but not all of the people all of the time."

Is that similar to that "99%" quotation of Atkinson?

At least you have told us what he thinks of 99% of the members of AR.

Maybe someone can get the Moderator to send out a message to all the members that this post has turned into another mindless piss-on-somebody fest.

I think this is a useful thread. Nice to know who on this board to never hunt with under any circumstances.

MR, I'm not afraid of guns at all. I'm just leery of fools too arrogant to have any respect for them.
--------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
MacD37 -
I never said I couldn't learn to effectively use the safety.

quote:

Actually I was just asking because I just acquired a cz full stock 9.3x62 and the safety is not very user friendly. I have already inadvertetly put the safety on while cycling the bolt about fifty times in a few hundred cycles.

BWN300MAG,The quote above from your other post, is what I based that comment on! I guess I read it wrong!

quote:

I also never said when I am hunting with others I carry a loaded, ready gun. I said sometimes I do - like when I am hunting alone. For the record, my main reaction, the thing I am most concerned with if I fall while carrying any firearm is to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. So, yes I can control where my gun is pointing at all times, it is called being aware of ones surroundings. If others cannot do this, maybe they need to spend more time working on it rather than behind a cpu offering advice. My thought process works like this - I know how to handle a firearm, I do it safely, I pay attention to what is going on. I do not rely on machines to provide for my safety or the safety of those around me. Relax, I will be sure to never ask you on a hunting trip.

................GOOD!

No one hunts with me with a loaded chamber, cocked and off safety if I know about it.

No one can permantently prevent an accidental discharge. All they can do is prolong the happening if they handle guns often enough and hope to GOD they are pointing the gun in a safe direction with the damn thing does go off.

I have no problems if the gun is loaded and on safe or chamber empty and off safe (which is how mine is transported frequently) so long as the person hunting with me doesn't point the gun at me regardless of the condition. To do other wise tempts fate and fate doesn't give a shit how competent or careful you are or think you are with your gun. Hunt with a safety you can operate or hunt with the chamber empty. To do otherwise is the same as walking around with your finger on the trigger. Hubris can kill you or, more importantly, someone who hasn't signed on for the risks.


Boet, I ain't a PH but you are wrong on this topic. Leave the safety alone or get one you can operate.


Perry

I think I can answer the question for one PH since he doesn't post here. A couple of years ago I hunted PAC elephants with PH Brent Hein of Zimbabwe. I usually carry my pre-64 Mod 70s with the safety in the middle position when in thick cover. He was very unhappy with me doing that and told me that the trackers were very concerened about it. I tried to explain that it was perfectly safe with this model rifle to no avail. It led to some pretty lively discussions. Based on that I feel pretty safe in saying that he would not let you carry your rifle with the chamber loaded and no safety or the safety off. I do agree with BWM that the best safety is the one between your ears and watching the muzzle is of paramount importance but no one can always control what touches the trigger or where the muzzle is ponted when you take a fall. To say you can is the heiht of foolishness. I agree with Brent completely and would walk out of the woods if any hunting partner tried such a stupid trick with me, hoping that I wouldn't get shot in the back on way back to the vehicle.

465H&H

After having investigated several "accidental discharges" I have com to the belief that they fell more into the "negligent discharge" catagory.

Dutch

Hold center.

Perry has it right. Safe firearms handling and proper use of a mechanical safety are mutually supportive - the mechanical safety saves you when you fuck up and safe handling techniques save you when the mechanical safety fails. Anyone who blindly trusts a mechanical safety is courting Trouble and anyone who relies only on "the safety between his ears" is dangerously arrogant.

The fact that some have posted in this string, on this forum of all places, that they think it acceptable to stalk game or make the final approach to game with a round in the chamber and the safety off sends chills down my spine. All of the reasons for needing an effective, well designed safety are magnified at that time, especially when stress is present. I can't conceive of why you would even WANT to do such a thing - what in the world is it that you think you gain? If getting the safety off impairs the speed with which you can mount your rifle, aim, and fire by a quarter of a nanosecond, then either you are not yet competent enough with that particular weapon to be using it in the field, or the safety design is a cluster-fuck to begin with (and there are many, many of those). If the safety is one that is cumbersome enough to tempt you to punch it off before the butt touches your shoulder, GET RID OF THE GUN.

I once hunted with a guy who had hell's own time getting his safety off quickly. He was constantly getting it stuck part way forward(it was a tang safety). Of course, he insisted that it was no problem, that he had his safety "between his ears". His AD very nearly killed me. The safety was off when I took the gun from his hands. No one can say that I'm not an easy going guy. That man was still alive when he left camp that night.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
The fact that some have posted in this string, on this forum of all places, that they think it acceptable to stalk game or make the final approach to game with a round in the chamber and the safety off sends chills down my spine. All of the reasons for needing an effective, well designed safety are magnified at that time, especially when stress is present. I can't conceive of why you would even WANT to do such a thing - what in the world is it that you think you gain?

Talk about arrogant. Ignorance is truly bliss.

Have you ever followed half a pride of angry lions for hours and then days on end, in brush so thick that you could not see hide nor hair of any of them, no matter how close you got?

Have you ever stalked them to spitting distance, and heard, but not seen, as many as half a dozen of them grunting, growling and making any variety of other pissed-off noises that defy human description - including, more than once, the short, snarling, barking roar that you and your PH are convinced presages a coming charge?

Have you ever had multiple lions circle back at you, and stalk you, even as you thought you were stalking them? Hunkered down so low in the grass that you could barely see the outline of their backs, as they crept toward you, and gathered their hind legs beneath them, ready to come for you?

Have you ever been charged by a lion from twenty yards?

I have.

If you had experienced any of these things, then perhaps you might appreciate that under such circumstances, every bloody second counts.

You might understand that, with nothing between you and the lions, you want your rifle at port arms, or even shouldered, and ready to fire - at multiple moving targets, in some cases moving quickly in a low crouch and heading straight for your throat - with safety off and your trigger finger straight outside the guard.

On the other hand, it seems that you lack the capacity for that kind of understanding. It is easy to prescribe behavior for all occasions when your experience of the most harrowing is nil.

btt

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Maybe someone can get the Moderator to send out a message to all the members that this post has turned into another mindless piss-on-somebody fest.

And I thought you would be grateful that we turned attention away from you.

A slightly different tack to this topic.

Safety with say a M70 style bolt action vs a traditional double rifle. Both loaded.

Carrying a loaded bolt action rifle with a safety on which locks the firing pins, perhaps loaded just for the stalk, but rounds in the magazine.

vs

Carrying a loaded double rifle with rounds in the chamber for the whole hunt in dangerous game territory, RELYING on the double rifles safety ALONE.

????

Interesting take on some of the more extreme safety conscious comments here. Hunting in dangerous game country is not shooting at some rifle range.

Perhaps safe rifle handling is the key to both scenarios in any case. Having said that I want a deent safety on any rifle I own, but can cope quite adequately if one is not there but slightly modifying behaviour.

But one reason I do like the concept of the Krieghoff double rifle decocking "safety" which to me is quite easy to use with some practice and experience.

btt2.

Have we heard from everyone?

Four PHs only.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
With all due respect, this is just nonsense. Walking around with a loaded rifle with no safety; how bad can rationalization get?

I have posted the cure to accidentally engaging the safety on a CZ. If you are interested you can search for it, or go over to www.go-on-safari.com

Bill,

Would this be what you are alluding to:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This has been noted in the past here and on NitroExpress.com.

At first I thought it was a non-issue until I did it myself at the range. I pointed this out to CZ but have not heard if there is any decision to change the design. CZ has a point that if you put the safety ON then it should be ON and be unable to pull the trigger. But if you accidentally do it in the heat of the moment in a charge or the appy test, well that could be a problem!

I have modified my CZ's such that when the bolt is thrown forward, the safety, if ON, is pushed to the OFF position.


Others might want to consider this modification.

The whole idea of trying to hunt with a rifle that has no safety is utterly stupid!

It might be fine when one hunts on a farm where the animals are all known by name to the farm guide.

But, to even consider hunting in areas that have dangerous game is very silly indeed.

When we are hunting in a wild area - as spposed to hunting on a fenced farm - I load the rifle as soon as I am out of teh truck, and put the safety on. The rifle remains loaded at all times until we get back to the truck.


Attempting this with a rifle that has no safety is asking for trouble.