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I know, I know: You're thinking, "not another Mark Sullivan thread"! But if you bear with me you'll see that he's of secondary importance to some bigger issues that I'd like to raise. On a parallel thread regarding Mark Sullivan's becoming persona non grata at SCI this year, there was the usual clamor about the despicable nature of the man. More posters than not argued that Sullivan's hunting style - prompting cape buffalo to charge - was cruel and inhumane and incidentally beneficial to the anti-hunting community's propaganda machine. As I see it, there are three issues commonly raised in protest against Sullivan: 1) he deliberately wounds animals in order to film them dying at his hand in a charge; 2) the belief that getting buffalo to charge after they're wounded is cruel; and, 3) he likes to shoot his client's animals. Let's look at these in reverse order. As to the latter charge, I believe that there is abundant evidence that Mark Sullivan is fast on the trigger. Although you've got to admit, it's an enviable business model: Become a professional hunter; get other people to pay you to go on safari; and, shoot the animals that your client is hunting. Now, that's not to say that Sullivan does that with every animal or with every client. However, there's ample proof of that he shoots a lot of his client's animals - his videos provide all the evidence you need. Maybe his clients don't mind, but that's enough for me to never want to hunt with him. It's when you get to the other two and far more contentious issues that reality becomes somewhat obscured. An array of 'friends' and 'friends of friends' are quoted in angst-filled posts accusing Sullivan with ephemeral evidence of his deliberately wounding cape buffalo and goading them to charge. Since it's the bogieman Sullivan that is being skewered, the lack of any first-hand evidence is casually dismissed. Recently, Idaho Sharpshooter posted on the aforementioned Sullivan thread the following:
Rich's post (quoted in part above) is the prototypal attack on Mark Sullivan. Here we have a 'friend' who really knows the story behind the man. And as is often the case, it's a PH - though at other times by other posters it's a game scout or concession owner or some such person in the know. And interestingly, all of these characters who have damning evidence on Sullivan share a similar characteristic: They insist on anonymity due to their being, what, discreet? gentlemanly? demure? Or maybe just cowardly? In this case, Rich's PH 'friend' exclaims that Sullivan, a man well known as an "asshole" to "everyone in the industry", has more elephant charges in one of his annual elephant hunt videos than the PH friend has had in ten seasons! The only problem is that Sullivan doesn't put out an elephant video each year - in fact, from my research he's never put out even one elephant video. Ever. And as for the elephant charges, I've seen most of Sullivan's videos and I can't recall a single one. Not one. If you ask me, the asshole is the man who hides behind anonymity while assailing another man's character - especially when using demonstrably bogus evidence. And therein lies the problem with most of the screeds that savage Mark Sullivan as the anti-christ of the hunting world: There is no attempt to proffer real evidence of his deliberately wounding game, nor is there any apparent shame for failing to produce such evidence. As I have written before, and others have recently stated, buffalo charges can be provoked by not shooting backup shots when first available, coupled with a direct and aggressive approach on the wounded animal. Could such an animal have been killed several minutes earlier? Undoubtedly. Is that undue cruelty to the animal? Probably. That then leaves us with the last issue, prompting me to ask: If the undue suffering of hunted game is anathema to our community, is now the time to begin a discussion on the use of bow & arrow on cape buffalo? Or pistols? Or black-powder rifles? Or allowing a wounded buffalo 'to get sick for a while' before approaching for the coup d’grace? If it's a perversion to taunt a wounded cape buffalo into charging, what is it when a hunter's vanity has him choose a weapon where there is far greater likelihood of initially wounding or losing the animal he's hunting? I must admit that I don't foresee the same fervor in exploring these topics as there is for threads attacking Mark Sullivan. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | ||
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Mortally wounding a large animal with an arrow and waiting for it to bleed out shouldnt be associated with any kind of 'suffering' - hell some of them go back to feeding while they bleed out... In fact I dont think the word 'suffering' should be attributed to anything to do with big game hunting... that is what the animal libbers do best... presume that animals have the same emotions and senses ashumans and 'suffer' when injured. Nature is brutal and you dont hear animals complaining that someone stuck a horn through their guts... they just live or die... If you are wondering if an animal is suffering - go ask it!! As for Sullivan - I dont know him, I dont especially like what he does but I have never heard a client complain, they all LOVED their hunts with him. IMO - most clients book hunts to have fun - not to be judged by others. I guess though when you put yourself or allow yourself to be put in front of the camera that situation changes. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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As I posted elsewhere, my left brain said Buffalo, my right brain typed Elephant. The crux of the matter, is that Sullivan does this for the $$$ available from mouth breathers who see his videos as reality. I think he "gets off on it". If I ever hunted with him (not even remotely likely) any animal he put a bullet in without my express request would go on his license, and not out of my pocketbook. IMHO, if all of his clients did that he'd be out of business in thirty days. Matt: you tell us his clients love him, but none of them have posted here in his support. As the kids say "what's up with that?". Not one... Take a day or ten and find one willing to post here. Heck, take your time and maybe not post here again until you DO find one. We'll miss you... Rich | |||
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Here are my random thoughts on Mark Sullivan... First I have seen and analyzed all of his videos... Also I have personally talked with 2 of his Clients, both that have hunted with him more than once. Both of them had nothing but excellent things to say about him. EXCELLENT THINGS. Also, I have spent some time talking to Mark on at least 4 different occasions. I found him to be very nice and personable, and very "excited" about African hunting. I have found no evience of intentional wounding, to cause a charge. Instead of shooting wounded game from a far, he likes to close the distance, and do "IT" at point blank range. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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That is the best summation yet, of the Sullivan issue.  Most of the wannabees on this forum, who have an almost pathological hate of the guy, have never hunted with him or even met him. They just get caught up in the anti Sullivan circus because their various internet heroes happen to dislike him for reasons of jealousy or whatever other petty little reason they may have. If some of you guys are so bloody sure he does all the evil things that you accuse him of, then show some fucking proof, or keep your traps shut, and dream on!!! | |||
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Blah, blah..... No need to be so insulting John Frederick - methinks you protest too much. The proof, my friend, is in Sullivan's pathetic movies. He shoots more animals in self-defense in every movie than most PH's do in a lifetime. What does that tell you? Let's forget about the dozens of buffalo charges here and just look at his hippo charge movie. For God's sake - any fool can see that he pushed those hippos until they charged. Hardly anyone ever shoots a hippo in self defense, but Marky Mark manages to achieve that fairly regularly. Ridiculous. He is not the only one, but he is one of them. I know of others who are doing this and hopefully they'll receive the same treatment as Sullivan soon. Just so bad for hunting. I don't really agree with his ban from SCI, simply because there are others who are just as guilty of tarnishing the name of hunting and have not been banned. But it is obvious that he is an unethical hunter. Dream on? About what? Being a big bullshitter and glory boy like Sullivan? What a joke - I think I'll just continue hunting the way I've been taught, by those who actually know how to do it. Cheers, David | |||
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David, Don't waste any time on JF. Look at the posts he has made in his 23 days of membership on the forum. He is a troll who has been banned under other aliases. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Protest? I wasn't protesting, just stating some fairly obvious facts, Mr Hulme. Wanting an animal to charge and putting yourself in a position so that it can happen is a whole different ball game than wounding it intentionally, which is the accusation most often leveled at the accused. I have not met nor spoken to Sullivan (have you?). I have also been charged twice by hippos whilst unarmed and was confused as to why they took such an instant dislike to me, a bit like yourself.  I am pleased that your hunting practices are squeaky clean and beyond reproach. Given your current address and assuming you have lived there for a while or at least during your tuition, I am fairly sure if you had the "best" teachers, some of them are friends of mine, and yes, you are right, they do "know how to do it". Cheers,  | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lhook7: David, Don't waste any time on JF. Look at the posts he has made in his 23 days of membership on the forum. He is a troll who has been banned under other aliases.[/QUOT Gee Cap'n Hook, I only wish I was young enough to grow up and be like you, with your obvious immense talents as a hunter. Nice of you to notice how long I have been a member of this esteemed forum, you aren't stalking me, are you? | |||
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David: It's obvious that you're a big fan of the ad hominem attack, but what with your background I think you can do better than just hurl insults at Sullivan. You undoubtedly have more safari experience than I do, so please explain how it is unethical to "push" a hippo on land to charge before shooting it? Is this codified in some secret 'fair chase' provision of Boone & Crockett? Of SCI? Of PHASA? Or is it simply your ethics that you would like to impose on our community? I guess I have a difficult time grasping how agitating a hippo is unethical but shooting it with two 500 grain bullets isn't. And as for Sullivan being a "bullshitter", I can only assume you have grounds to believe him to be dishonest or a liar. Please provide some evidence to support that. That would certainly add some credence to your attacks. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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I blundered in my hastily written post this morning. It is not so much that it's unethical to push a hippo or anything else into charging, it is just plain wrong. This glory boy approach which is always about getting the footage is what gets people killed. All it takes is a foot in an antbear hole at the wrong moment. It may not be considered unethical by some (depending on your own personal principles), but who here will say they condone such a practice? Riling an animal up so it attacks before you kill it? What's the plan there? Who is trying to prove what? Above I wrote that 'it is not so much that it's unethical' and I wrote that for a reason. I personally still consider goading an animal into attacking to be unethical. I have no idea whether Mark Sullivan wounds buffalo intentionally, but either way it would make no difference to my overall opinion of the fellow. What I do know is that he draws out the suffering/killing of animals for the sake of the footage and in my book that's enough. KPete, I am a fan of any attack that targets those who depict hunting as something other than what it really is, and those who trash our tradition by being unethical, whether it's wounding animals intentionally or conniving with corrupt politicians. I would not like to impose my hunting ethics on you or anyone else. You're a big boy now, work it out for yourself. I am glad that I have avoided transgressing wildlife/hunting laws and casting aside principle for money whilst involved in this game. Not all aspects of my life have been that squeaky clean. At least it's something hey? Cheers, David | |||
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Oh yes, the bullshiter bit.... Mark Sullivan is a bullshitter and that is apparent on every video he's ever made. Forgive me because I cannot quote him, but I'm sure I remember something like this: Well, we were just walking along minding our own business and this hippo came boiling from the pan and charged us... Ja, right. It's amazing how many times these big movie maker chaps are just walking along minding their own business when all hell suddenly breaks loose. David | |||
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Having only talked with Mark at the shows and listened to stories from a couple of my clients who have hunted with Mark - both had issues with Mark but overall thought he ran a good hunt and one even hunted with him three times - I have no basis for trashing him simply because he promotes himself and sells videos. I see Craig Boddington's booth was showing videos of charges at this last SCI and wondered if that might have been one of the reasons Mark was uninvited? My question to those on this forum who are against pushing DG until it charges as unsportsmanlike is - which is more sporting, closing with an animal until it charges or sniping it from long range when it is not even aware of your existence? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Something in-between, I reckon. Seriously, if you hunt enough, you will find yourself in all kinds of situations and take shots at both close quarters and at some distance...Take it as it presents itself, I'd say. Of course one has to get up really close and personal when hunting an elephant in the Zam Valley and wanting to make a frontal brain shot, for example. In a situation like this a charge will often take place. I wouldn't consider that unsporting but I would consider waiting for an elephant to die from an arrow wound unsporting. That's just me and as KPete took the time to point out, we all have different standards we live by, insofar as hunting and life in general is concerned. Different strokes for different blokes. David | |||
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It's quite funny seeing everybody calling each other "assholes" and "liars" over the internet. I wonder if all would be so brave face to face? Pity we're not still in the golden age of duelling....... JCHB. | |||
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Yes, a great pity...However, this is not the case everywhere. Duels can still be arranged in certain places. | |||
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Very true. The same also apply to those who have a NDA with every client. Then they ride in the back of the truck when a buffalo he has wounded goes into thick bush. Not very brave I would say. | |||
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Are duels conducted at charging distance with open sights or blades, where it is more sporting - or at 600 yards? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Once again I ask does anyone have any proof that Mark makes his clients sign a NDA or is this just another rumor? I for one would much rather hunt hippo up close on dry land then snipe one from the riverbank as it comes up for air. | |||
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David Are there any particular"movie makers" besides Sullivan you believe should be heaped into SCI banned status. If so please state which, and for what reasons. Dave Fulson | |||
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Dave, Yes, as a matter of fact there are, Razor Dobbs for one. Still trying to make up my mind about a couple of others. You're a 'movie maker' aren't you Dave? Must take the time to watch some of your stuff some time Cheers, David | |||
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Phil, One could argue either way as to whether pushing an animal to charge is un sportsmanlike or unethical. What I can say with some degree of confidence is that for a PH it is unprofessional. I consider it unprofessional to put your trackers and client in unnecessary danger. 465H&H | |||
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I am hoping out TV shows and Boddington series are not on your list. I think Ivan gave Johnny some DVD's, I hope you will watch and enjoy Cheers Dave Fulson | |||
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465H&H, Is it unprofessional to expose your client to danger when that is what the client wants? After all that is why people sign up to hunt with Mark; they want to get up close and personal. Mark's clients know what they are getting into and its their choice to hunt with him. | |||
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465, Thanks for saying what I couldn't say in several posts.... Dave, let's be honest, there are movie-makers and then there are 'movie-makers'. I have always been a fan of Craig Boddington and that is unlikely to change. I look forward to seeing your DVD's. Cheers, Dave | |||
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Yes, it's unprofessional. It is hardly ever just the client and the PH in attendance - others need to be considered as well. If I was a PH and my client told me he would like to push the envelope, I'd tell him to sign up for a stint in some war torn corner of the world. Simply my opinion, because personally I wouldn't want to look for trouble for the sake of it. Why do we need to seek it out? Enough of it comes the way of dangerous game hunters as it is. Cheers, David | |||
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He doesn't have to stalk you. He can see that you're a newbie by the way that you screwed up the quotation of his post and the fact that everyone's join date is at the bottom of each post that they make. I don't have any opinions on Mark Sullivan because I've never met him, never seen any of his video's, read any of his writing or seen any of his posts online. I'm only contributing to this string because I like to point out "stupid" when I see it. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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hell, I might as well chime in---like everyone else I have watched his videos and spoken to him at SCI before. And he has been the butt of a few of my posts. I like his videos--very entertaining. What I get out of speaking to him and watching is videos is that it ALL IS SMIPLY ABOUT HIM. That's it, the hunts, videos etc is all about him and only him. I would never hunt with this guy. A safari IMO should be about the hunt and the hunters.. Does he stage his charges-------very likely for all reasons posted by others. Are his hunts more staged than those that hunt in small high fenced operations? or hunt drugged cats? --maybe not.  I don't know if he wounds animals on purpose but he certainly forces charges-that's his bag and I am not really bothered by it. If he wounds them on purpose, that is a different matter to me, anyway----I don't like that behavior. nor do I think it is cool to shoot others animals-------I wouldn't accept that from a PH--maybe other hunters are OK with it-not me. just my 2 cents nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
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As a single one time hunter in Africa (buff)I am offering some random observations - If I were ever the subject of public scorn, I would like to have Kpete in my corner. (I have always had a sympathy for people who speak up against the howl of the mob) I also have to note that in the course of a near month long sojourn in "the bush" (Chirisa safari district,Zim) I came to like my PH and so we both talked. One night after supper I told him that I had watched a film of Mark Sullivan shooting a buff at about 15 feet distance. (I shot my own buff as he turned towards me at about 35 yards distance -and, yes, that was close enough,thank you!- although, of course, time stood still and I had no time to be scared) My PH asked me if I noticed that in the film, Mark Sullivan had no sweat marks on the back of his shirt. I gathered that he thought the buff shooting had been staged. If one of his peers thought this about him I think it's telling. (BTW,I had a PH who did not shoot my buff) Finally, I want to note that no one of Sullivan's detractors ever seem to say that he was incompetent. (Being an Irishman myself, I had to end this post with a positive support for anybody named Sullivan!)  | |||
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Speaking from a client hunter perspective, "The issue,.." I have with Mark Sullivan is Mark himself. As a client I am not interested in spending hard earned money on my vacation or my families vacation to experience intentional charges, the ph intentionally taking my trophies for me or following up what look very obviously on the video to be intentionally wounded game. My last trip to Zimbabwe was a family affair. My wife and step daughter hunted every day with me and were a part of at least ten buffalo stalks. I'm not sure any of us would have been comfortable with the intentional wounding, (obvious from Mr Sullivans video,) or the follow up and intentional charge with a 16 year and a 45 year old lady in the line of fire so to speak. Additionally, the two ladies would not have seen the humor in being left behind while the ph and I go off alone to provoke the charge and finish the animal off. I have no doubt Mr Sullivan is a gentleman to talk to, provides a very accomodating and hospitable camp and would be a pleasure to ride around in the Cruiser with. However, based exclusively on Mr Sullivans videos which are produced in no small part to promote himself and/ or his business, I will not be contracting with his company to take my family on safari. That is my issue. | |||
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Guys, There was a member that left AR a couple of years ago that was quite unabashed about his support for Mark Sullivan. I believe he had hunted with him 3 times and said he had seen none of the antics that Mark gets bashed for. I hunted with a PH that had shared a camp with Mark for the duration of the season in the Selous and had nothing but good things to say about him. He thought a lot of the negative comments about Mark were the product of professional jealousy!!!! That gave me pause but it was his opinion. I think that if you book a safari with Mark you know what you are getting into and if you want to get in a wounded buffalo's face..........I don't believe that buffalo are intentionally wounded by Mark or his clients. I think there is enough bad shooting during a season to create all the opportunities necessary to "allow the buffalo to choose how he will die". The only real problem I have with Mark is that it seems pretty obvious that he draws out the follow up on a wounded buffalo to get maximum video time out of it prolonging the demise of the buffalo. I find that distasteful and unethical by my personal standards. Following that same vein I think it is unecessary to get in the buffalo's face before putting in the finisher and this makes the hunt unecessarily dangerous. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I don't think you will ever find many people who will admit haveing paid big money and have allowed the PH to shoot your animals.
The above with foul language and internet threats is the mark of a poster who has no base to debate from!
Right on David! All one has to do is watch his films!
IMO personally, I don't think it is unethical to "PUSH" any dangerous game to charge. That is the whole idea of Dangerous game hunting. However there is a big difference in "PUSHING" an un-wounded animal till he turns to fight, and pushing an animal that is wounded and already down,suffering,till he rises creakily to his feet so you can shoot him back down, when you could have finshed the mortally wounded animla with a final spine or brain shot instead. Pushing a dry land hippo till he charges is ethical, but when it is done by the PH who then shoots it as well on his client's ticket? What did the client get for his money, being allowed to watch MS shoot a hippo?
David there would be nothing wrong with pushing an unwounded hippo to charge for the client to shoot, but that is not what MS does! He shoots them himself! Not only puting himself, the client, and other staff in the area,in un-needed danger for his own gratification, and to get himself on film standing YET ANOTHER CHARGE, on the client's dime!
Phil, I know you are a Brown Bear man and have pleanty of occasion to have to go into the alders with wounded Bear. I would bet that the reason you had to go into those weeds with that bear is a poor shot from a client from a distance where the bear wasn't even aware of his existance! That is one thing, but to see a bear that is already wounded,in those weeds from 40 yds and shoot it yourself rather than letting your client finishe what he started is something I would not believe if someone told me you did. There is abig difference in HAVING to fend off a charge, and quite another in forceing one so you can shoot your client's animal!
Again Phil, they were/are usually done at close range, but duels usually do not start with one of the opponants already wounded, or being shot by one of the contestant's second instead of the contestant.
Agreed! and if you will notice, the Hippos goaded into chargeing are not wounded! That part is OK, but it would be the same in the water, or on dry land for the PH to shoot him for you, and expect you to pay for it.
That, I think, is the main objection most have with MS! He loves to shoot his client's game for them, but he knows which one to get close to! One thing you will notice is when a big male lion is wounded and down flopping around,you don't see MS advancing on him kicking dirt in the lion's face to get a charge. He has his client shoot the lion several times before closeing to thirty yards then theorws sticks to look for movement. If there is any he says hit him again. The wounded buffalo seems to be a better chance for MS to come out on top. I also doubt MS would be so willing to go into the alders with one of Phil's wounded brown bear and kick dirt in his face either, if he went in at all. I have an idea that would suddenly be Phil's job!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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NE450NO2 you are exactly 100% right,Mark Sullivan is a good person and a great PH,alot of the BS is just rumours and jealously,most of them rumours were started by some members of this site,its plan slander.Mark has done alot for the hunting world especialy dangerous game hunting and double rifles. | |||
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...maybe they just wanted to be movie (dvd) stars???...if so, would be a small price for "fame"... | |||
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I have to admit I have not watched his videos, but does he draw it out longer than the "take time to smoke a couple of cigarettes before following up" recommendation I seem to have seen? ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Charles, Waiting a short while for the buffalo to die on his own is often prudent. You then follow up the buffalo and ideally find him dead without endangering anyone. To draw out the approach on an already wounded buffalo to allow for extensive dialogue when the buffalo who is in sight could have been finished much earlier is a completely different thing. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Thanks for the explanation Mark. So it is more the time with the wounded buff on camera without shooting than the delay between shot and follow up? ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Usually the time between the moment when the wounded buffalo could be finished off and the charge is less than 1 minute. In other words is waiting 1 minute to see what the wounded buffalo is going to do unethical? | |||
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Just curious, where is it "obvious" in the MS videos, that he intentionally wounds game? It would appear that you like to go dangerous game hunting with the family (should have taken the mother in law too) as long as someone can eliminate the danger for you. If there was any perceived danger in your "vacation" I am sure you would not have exposed your 16 yo daughter to it. Maybe others, who have travelled half way around the world to hunt, don't mind a bit of an adrenalin rush. I have seen videos on this sight of "hunters" braining a hippo, in the water, from a very safe distance, wow that's brave! That's not hunting, it's sniping, and yes, even your daughter could pull off that stunt.  | |||
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