quote:

Originally posted by Neil Duckworth:
I would second Mike here on all of Martin's comments. The truth is that the maximum limit of a 40 pounder being shot is often ignored, a little money in the rangers pocket and a 60 pounder goes down. Re bulls crossing the boundary, they know what it's all about ,once they cross they change totally. The same way the crop raiders are, they know safe and unsafe zones.

They'd quickly learn the safe & unsafe areas if the parks had controlled hunting areas (as some do) so I don't see that as a problem....... the problem is with the possible corruption which is an entirely different matter...... and the answer to that is in the hands of the operators because no one can receive a bribe unless someone pays it so if you can't stop it being taken, the answer is to stop it being given.

So just in case some are not keeping up, we have three respected professional hunters that live and hunt in Zim all of whom have declared that commercial hunting in the national parks in Zim is immoral, unethical and abused. On the other hand we have a handful of folks that honestly I have no clue whether they have ever even been to Zim who have suggested that hunting in the national parks is no different than hunting in hunting concessions. What is even more interesting is that on other threads some of the same folks say this is all Zim's problem and they should deal with it. Then they want to ignore or argue with what the folks in Zim have to say about the problem. Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So just in case some are not keeping up, we have three respected professional hunters that live and hunt in Zim all of whom have declared that commercial hunting in the national parks in Zim is immoral, unethical and abused. On the other hand we have a handful of folks that honestly I have no clue whether they have ever even been to Zim who have suggested that hunting in the national parks is no different than hunting in hunting concessions. What is even more interesting is that on other threads some of the same folks say this is all Zim's problem and they should deal with it. Then they want to ignore or argue with what the folks in Zim have to say about the problem. Go figure.

On the other hand, we have Ron Thomson who is immensely experienced, has written several books on the subject of Africa conservation, is ex (Zim) parks and a widely acknowledged expert in the field who strongly advocates allowing controlled hunting in said parks.

We also have a good many parks in Africa that do allow controlled hunting in designated areas and make a long term success of it.

There are always at least two sides of any argument/debate and just because someone might not agree with you or others, doesn't necessarily make them wrong and you right (or vice versa)....... it just means a difference of opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So just in case some are not keeping up, we have three respected professional hunters that live and hunt in Zim all of whom have declared that commercial hunting in the national parks in Zim is immoral, unethical and abused. On the other hand we have a handful of folks that honestly I have no clue whether they have ever even been to Zim who have suggested that hunting in the national parks is no different than hunting in hunting concessions. What is even more interesting is that on other threads some of the same folks say this is all Zim's problem and they should deal with it. Then they want to ignore or argue with what the folks in Zim have to say about the problem. Go figure.

Exactly...leave it to the Zimbo's...then the Zimbo's respond and everybody wants to tell them their business.

Neil, Mart, Pete, and Nigel Theisen who lurks on AR...all highly respected Zim PH's who have lived their lives there and all agree on how it should be handled...why doesn't everyone listen to them?

Lane, I respect them to no ends, as I do you and Mike, and I do not imply that someone is right and others are wrong. I am asking, from an ecological standpoint, as custodians of these areas, why is it un-ethical and morally wrong to manage it by allowing controlled hunting for revenue?

More directly, why do THEY not get it organised , and at least have decent control over it? As Shakari rightly pointed out, Ron Thomson is one of the conservation greats off our modern times, and advocates this to no ends. He is a Zimbo.

I know they are respected( I respect them a lot) and well known, therefore their opinion is asked and valued. One of these days I might find myself in a debate about this topic with another hunter, or heaven forbid, maybe to a bigger audience. Then I want an informed and balanced answer ready.

If I did not care about this situation, I would not bother with it.

Hi Charl,
As it is right now...the level of corruption prohibits it from being done professionally and the economic incentive does not go to the right places.

Getting organized in Zim is easier said than done...just look what has been going on in the Save.

Right now...they (good Zimbo's) are more taxed with preserving what good they do have verses setting a new standard for hunting with in the country.

On another topic...sport hunting ele is NOT a real effective means of controlling park numbers in the herds.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
On another topic...sport hunting ele is NOT a real effective means of controlling park numbers in the herds.

Is it effective in controlling 'numbers' anywhere Lane?

I for one am not or was not questioning any of the Zim guys. I was questioning the premise (started by Saeed I believe) - that ALL National Parks should be off-limits to hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hi Charl,
As it is right now...the level of corruption prohibits it from being done professionally and the economic incentive does not go to the right places.

Getting organized in Zim is easier said than done...just look what has been going on in the Save.

Right now...they (good Zimbo's) are more taxed with preserving what good they do have verses setting a new standard for hunting with in the country.

On another topic...sport hunting ele is NOT a real effective means of controlling park numbers in the herds.

Lane is spot on. This thread started as a discussion about Lacey Act issues in Zim for hunts being organized in the current political situation in Zim. You cannot divorce this discussion from the situation on the ground in Zim today, in the here and now, not some hypothetical nirvana. To have some esoteric discussion about hunting in national parks is fine but to suggest that some generic answer is the right solution for Zim given their present circumstances is ridiculous. This is the same place where privately owned farms are being seized for war vets that are too young to have even fought in the war, where the government attempts to seize one of the countries largest game conservancies, etc. I stand by my statement, commercial hunting in Zim's national parks today, given the current situation in Zim, is immoral and unethical.

I totally agree with Martin, Pete and Neil. NO COMMERCIAL hunting to be done in Parks. Too much room for abuse!! If culling has to be done, then let the professionals do it. If you want a cheap, non trophy hunt, then go do it in a safari area with a reputable outfitter who offer those hunts. CMSafaris and Mokore Safaris both offer those types of hunts. This way you have not worry about your reputation or the Lacey act.

Cheers Guys

Thanks guys. Thierry, I support you guys where I can, but never myself will hunt in Zimbabwe soon. I believe in any case that at least 2,5% off what you guys make goes to the dictator that raped your country to the shambles it is today. With all the rest down the drain, the Safari industry is his own cash cow....So I will not spend any money there until that changes as I believe it helps him, but that's just me. This is not my interest in this at all...

I was trying to get a prospective client informed. Then this whole issue started to take a new shape (as it does most of the time on AR) and I questioned the moral and ethical issues that was raised.

Lane and Mike, thanks for explaining, it makes a bit more sense now. I still think, properly controlled and regulated park hunts is a good way of generating a sustainable income for the park management, and reducing numbers. Cleary with the political state as it is, it is not feasible.

And gents, I know these areas well, but do not hunt there. I was in Hwange in 2012 and drove up and down the valley with a friend of mine, hunting Tigers in the Zambesi. It used to be one of my families favourite holiday spots during the nineties....Flippen sad what is has become....

Any case, this is my swan song on this, just wanted some clarification, which I got....sort off....:-)

I know you guys will have an awesome season!

Cheers for now!

quote:

Too much room for abuse!!

And that sums it up. People worried about conservation in Zim must cling to an extreme doctrine because of incompetence, endemic corruption and the resultant epic apathy. Of course saying it like that would be career limiting for them. All we can do is support the good guys as best we can.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Thanks guys. Thierry, I support you guys where I can, but never myself will hunt in Zimbabwe soon. I believe in any case that at least 2,5% off what you guys make goes to the dictator that raped your country to the shambles it is today. With all the rest down the drain, the Safari industry is his own cash cow....So I will not spend any money there until that changes as I believe it helps him, but that's just me. This is not my interest in this at all...

I was trying to get a prospective client informed. Then this whole issue started to take a new shape (as it does most of the time on AR) and I questioned the moral and ethical issues that was raised.

Lane and Mike, thanks for explaining, it makes a bit more sense now. I still think, properly controlled and regulated park hunts is a good way of generating a sustainable income for the park management, and reducing numbers. Cleary with the political state as it is, it is not feasible.

And gents, I know these areas well, but do not hunt there. I was in Hwange in 2012 and drove up and down the valley with a friend of mine, hunting Tigers in the Zambesi. It used to be one of my families favourite holiday spots during the nineties....Flippen sad what is has become....

Any case, this is my swan song on this, just wanted some clarification, which I got....sort off....:-)

I know you guys will have an awesome season!

Cheers for now!

Frankly, I could not careless how much of the money goes to support Mugabe, our friends who are running the safari industry need our support.

I know I have stopped hunting in Zimbabwe since 1991, due to the fact that the people I hunted with no longer hunt in Zimbabwe.

If they did, I would still be hunting with them, regardless of what Mugabe gets.

Supporting them far out weighs the fact that he gets of the money.

Actually, if we apply the same rules, and see what other politicians are doing in the world, we would not be spending any money in any country!

Saeed, you are 100% correct. The folks like Martin, Buzz, Myles, Neal, Thierry and a host of others like them are all that stands between sustainable hunting in Zim and the annihilation of the game populations. They do not just need our support they deserve it.

+1000 to both Mike and Saeed statements

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you are 100% correct. The folks like Martin, Buzz, Myles, Neal, Thierry and a host of others like them are all that stands between sustainable hunting in Zim and the annihilation of the game populations. They do not just need our support they deserve it.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hi Charl,
As it is right now...the level of corruption prohibits it from being done professionally and the economic incentive does not go to the right places.

Getting organized in Zim is easier said than done...just look what has been going on in the Save.

Right now...they (good Zimbo's) are more taxed with preserving what good they do have verses setting a new standard for hunting with in the country.

On another topic...sport hunting ele is NOT a real effective means of controlling park numbers in the herds.

Lane is spot on. This thread started as a discussion about Lacey Act issues in Zim for hunts being organized in the current political situation in Zim. You cannot divorce this discussion from the situation on the ground in Zim today, in the here and now, not some hypothetical nirvana. To have some esoteric discussion about hunting in national parks is fine but to suggest that some generic answer is the right solution for Zim given their present circumstances is ridiculous. This is the same place where privately owned farms are being seized for war vets that are too young to have even fought in the war, where the government attempts to seize one of the countries largest game conservancies, etc. I stand by my statement, commercial hunting in Zim's national parks today, given the current situation in Zim, is immoral and unethical.

Well said Mike and Lane.

Who are the operators who hunt the national Parks?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Who are the operators who hunt the national Parks?

This should be interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Thanks guys. Thierry, I support you guys where I can, but never myself will hunt in Zimbabwe soon. I believe in any case that at least 2,5% off what you guys make goes to the dictator that raped your country to the shambles it is today. With all the rest down the drain, the Safari industry is his own cash cow....So I will not spend any money there until that changes as I believe it helps him, but that's just me. This is not my interest in this at all...

I was trying to get a prospective client informed. Then this whole issue started to take a new shape (as it does most of the time on AR) and I questioned the moral and ethical issues that was raised.

Lane and Mike, thanks for explaining, it makes a bit more sense now. I still think, properly controlled and regulated park hunts is a good way of generating a sustainable income for the park management, and reducing numbers. Cleary with the political state as it is, it is not feasible.

And gents, I know these areas well, but do not hunt there. I was in Hwange in 2012 and drove up and down the valley with a friend of mine, hunting Tigers in the Zambesi. It used to be one of my families favourite holiday spots during the nineties....Flippen sad what is has become....

Any case, this is my swan song on this, just wanted some clarification, which I got....sort off....:-)

I know you guys will have an awesome season!

Cheers for now!

Frankly, I could not careless how much of the money goes to support Mugabe, our friends who are running the safari industry need our support.

I know I have stopped hunting in Zimbabwe since 1991, due to the fact that the people I hunted with no longer hunt in Zimbabwe.

If they did, I would still be hunting with them, regardless of what Mugabe gets.

Supporting them far out weighs the fact that he gets of the money.

Actually, if we apply the same rules, and see what other politicians are doing in the world, we would not be spending any money in any country!

This is true. With the f--ktard we have in office now, you could argue that none of us US citizens ought to be hunting at home!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Thanks guys. Thierry, I support you guys where I can, but never myself will hunt in Zimbabwe soon. I believe in any case that at least 2,5% off what you guys make goes to the dictator that raped your country to the shambles it is today. With all the rest down the drain, the Safari industry is his own cash cow....So I will not spend any money there until that changes as I believe it helps him, but that's just me. This is not my interest in this at all...

I was trying to get a prospective client informed. Then this whole issue started to take a new shape (as it does most of the time on AR) and I questioned the moral and ethical issues that was raised.

Lane and Mike, thanks for explaining, it makes a bit more sense now. I still think, properly controlled and regulated park hunts is a good way of generating a sustainable income for the park management, and reducing numbers. Cleary with the political state as it is, it is not feasible.

And gents, I know these areas well, but do not hunt there. I was in Hwange in 2012 and drove up and down the valley with a friend of mine, hunting Tigers in the Zambesi. It used to be one of my families favourite holiday spots during the nineties....Flippen sad what is has become....

Any case, this is my swan song on this, just wanted some clarification, which I got....sort off....:-)

I know you guys will have an awesome season!

Cheers for now!

Frankly, I could not careless how much of the money goes to support Mugabe, our friends who are running the safari industry need our support.

I know I have stopped hunting in Zimbabwe since 1991, due to the fact that the people I hunted with no longer hunt in Zimbabwe.

If they did, I would still be hunting with them, regardless of what Mugabe gets.

Supporting them far out weighs the fact that he gets of the money.

Actually, if we apply the same rules, and see what other politicians are doing in the world, we would not be spending any money in any country!

This is true. With the f--ktard we have in office now, you could argue that none of us US citizens ought to be hunting at home!

JPK

...but sadly true!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Who are the operators who hunt the national Parks?

Here is one. Proudly proclaiming hunts in Mana Pools. And a PHASA award winner to boot.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6461033791

What we would like to know is the Zimbabwe outfitters participating in these hunts.

Indeed , surely these South Africans are not operating alone ?

Name the Zimbabwean operators. It has to be common knowledge by now amongst the Zimbabwean outfitters who they are .

Jan Dumon, Agree the South Africans has to have A Zim outfit they are working with, I would like to know as well, although there are MANY bad apples in South Africa I sometimes think they point fingers at us to fast. There has to be helped from inside ZIMBABWE. Zim is a great place to hunt and always will be.

What you find is that these companies are often fly-by-night-companies owned by black Zimbabweans (often with ZANU PF ties) with no clients that offer a black PH who got his license via a bribe. They use the SA operator as cover and to provide unsuspecting clients.

This will probably draw fire on me...but is still often the case.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
What you find is that these companies are often fly-by-night-companies owned by black Zimbabweans (often with ZANU PF ties) with no clients that offer a black PH who got his license via a bribe. They use the SA operator as cover and to provide unsuspecting clients.

This will probably draw fire on me...but is still often the case.

Once again Lane is spot on. And for that very reason I think you are going to find the Zim operators reluctant to jump up and start naming names on an online forum. They have enough problems to deal with already without worrying about stepping on the toes (or better said the wallet) of some deputy minister, council big wig, etc. Personally, I have no clue who the charlatans are.

And should you think that the problem is confined to elephant, think again:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...701033091#2701033091

Curious that the person making the report did not want their name used or photo shown. Presumably because they knew what they did was wrong . . . if not legally, certainly morally and ethically.

To Name the Zim operators that hunt in the park, is opening a can of worms. Everybody in Zim has succumbed to doing something , that could be questioned, including some of the Zimbos on this forum. this is simply because of the incredibly complicated political atmosphere. ethics are different in each one of us. Some of the Zimbos that are hunting in the park, are doing it the proper way of keeping it under wraps, and as ethically as possible and within the specs. the problem has been the 20% that screw it up for the rest of the people. Is it not better for parks to get the $ for these animals that ARE going to get shot regardless, as they are broke? The problem is parks have seen the $ value to this and now there is no stopping it and the quota might be increasing. so the only alternative is to stop Ration hunting for $ in the park. Full stop. I doubt this will ever happen!!!!

As for the Lacy act, Martin, it might be perfectly legal to hunt on "Contested" land, but is it correct? Clients might not care, because it's perfectly legal. But it is perfectly legal for a 50 year old man to have sex with a 18 year old girl..... Until it is your daughter? Too say that if the zimbo's could control these properties, they could help stop the abuse, clearly means you had not gone down that road, or have you? White zimbo's can't be part of this. There is too much emotion involved there. this was not the 18 year old giving consent. this was torn away and raped from them. Ask yourself, would you approve if it was your land?

Muck Racker, good point!