I need some solid advise from y'all.

This is a bit of a loaded question, but I need to get the load down on how an American citizen can get prosecuted on Lacey Act violations for hunts conducted in hunting areas in Zimbabwe, now in control off "listed" individuals. I know there is lot to it but this is what I am getting at:

I am doing shows and selling my hunts for South Africa and Mozambique. My friends from Zim are selling what they have. We compete friendly in the same market? Right.

Now I just finished a show and lost a big hunt out to another South African. Client wanted a Buffalo Plains Game hunt. I do not have any Elephants to hunt in South Africa. I made a good deal to the client on his inquiry and he was ready to drop the hammer on the hunt.

He stopped by an hour or so later, telling me that he spoke to this other South African Outfitter at the same show, and the guy gave him the same deal as me, but also offered him a Trophy exportable Elephant for $25,000.00 trophy fee only!!

It smelled to me, so I walked over to this guy's booth and asked him about this Elephant hunt. He told me that it was one of those areas (I know some of them well) in Gwaai. They have a legal Zim PH, with a Zim Land Cruiser, a CITEs quota of two bulls, and all the trimmings.

The only ILLEGAL thing I see here might be a Lacey Act violation. I need to know how this works. The guy was pretty sure of his case.

My inquiry is partly because I got stumped on the hunt as well, BUT the main reason is that I do not want a very nice, 60 year old guy, on his first African trip, walk into a shitty hunt in a dodgey area in Zim. And he is NOT going to shoot his Buffalo there....I am sure of it. I know there is not a lot of Plains Game there either.


He already paid a small deposit, I think.

I just do not want to sound like the grumpy outfitter that lost out to someone else. I want to give him the straight facts. If he still wants an Ellie bad, I will put him onto Phillip or Buzz or Carl.

Fair enough? Let me know any and all info. Would love to hear from Marty, Buzz, Pete, or some of the folks here with some legal knowledge of the whole deal....

Oh, and it was also touted to me to be perfectly legal to shoot ration Elephants in the park? For only $6,000.00 an Elephant, but no bulls over 40lbs? Is this true? He said, that the white Zim PH's do not participate in this practise out of principal. What principal might this be? The way I see it, is that if parks give say 50 permits for "ration" Ellies per year, and get $6,000.00 per hunt, it's great for them. Why would you guys not support this? I'm not in the know, so please inform me.

I never really followed this when it came up in the past, but I would like to know how it works, and how I can explain this to the uninformed fine folks of rural America that wants to hunt an Elephant.

I'm not asking about how hunts work in Zim, I am in the know and up to speed on that. I am asking about a specific area, the Hwange Park, the Lacey Act, and the legalities surrounding these hunts for American citizens?

Let's keep emotions out of this, and get the facts going. I think we need to get this out on the "drum beat" as well, if we can get a uniformed, constructive debate going.

Charl,

If I were in your postion I would contact Martin Pieters, martin@bulembisafaris.co.zw and ask him. I would also contact the US Embassy in Harare and ask them.

465H&H

Charl

I'm no expert (and that's what you need) but FWIW, I think you're dealing with at least 2 separate issues.

Firstly, the Lacey Act that prohibits American residents (or is it citizens?) from breaking any game law anywhere in the world & allows them to be prosecuted in the US for breaking said game laws.

Secondly, Their hunting on seized land/doing business with someone on the banned list.

Either way, you have my sympathy because we've been in a similar (but not identical) situation.

Some years ago, we had a bloke all set to book a Tanzanian hunt with us & at the last moment, he pulled out & told us he was going to book with a very well known skellum........ we warned the client to be careful but he went ahead & then lost his trophies because the guy he'd booked with didn't pay the T/Fs to the Govt............. then the client came back to us & had the bloody sauce to ask us to help him get his trophies back!....... Talk about taking the piss!

I reckon the advice from 465 (above) is probably dead right.

USF&W has to find out that he did something illegal. If paperwork is in order from Zim, they won't likely find out.

That is it in a nutshell.

I see this often. Clients want a hunt, scour the internet looking for said hunt, then wind up booking with a guy I KNOW is shady as hell.

Do you say something?

I have gone both ways depending on the situation. Usually, I say nothing. If I do say something, it is always in a situation where I cannot offer them the hunt they want.

9 times out of 10, it will bite you in the ass to say something. You look like you are trying to trash another hunt. Even if you are right! Even if you are protecting him!

A few years ago a "new" African hunter got sucked into a deal hunting Buffalo in the Caprivi and Lion in the "Kalahari" with a booking agent who had some TV show. "Gunny" Lee Ermey was going to hunt with them and make an episode on this show. Ok, so we all know what "Kalahari" means (captive bred Lions). Well, the client didn't know, and nobody told him. He expected a real wild Lion. The Booking agent wouldn't answer the simple question, "Where is this Caprivi Hunt?" She would say, "In Namibia" or not answer at all. I don't think she even knew.

I decided, after a few days of deliberating on the subject to tell him.

I told him what he had bought. I think it embarrassed the man that he got suckered into this hunt. I regretted telling him.

The end result is he went on the hunt, never got moved to the Caprivi to hunt his Buffalo. Shot his drugged Lion. The story of his Leopard hunt was another story. He refused to shoot the Leopard. I don't blame him.

It was hiding under the truck.

Should I have kept quiet? Maybe. It didn't change his decision. It embarrassed him. and made me look desperate to sell him a hunt.

I still battle with it when I see someone get suckered into a hunt that I know is a bad deal.

Even after saying "it will bite you in the ass", I think I would tell him. He is doing something illegal. It's a felony if he gets caught.

I think the only thing you can say to him is, "Look,I WILL NOT take you on this hunt and not take a dime from anyone you do book with...but you need to not do this as planned for XYZ reasons. In stead, if you are truly set on Zim and elephants, go with guy XYZ with the full knowledge that I am telling you this with no financial interest whatsoever". If he chooses not to believe you, then you have done all you can.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
I think the only thing you can say to him is, "Look,I WILL NOT take you on this hunt and not take a dime from anyone you do book with...but you need to not do this as planned for XYZ reasons. In stead, if you are truly set on Zim and elephants, go with guy XYZ with the full knowledge that I am telling you this with no financial interest whatsoever". If he chooses not to believe you, then you have done all you can.

Thank you. This is what I will do. Sold his Buffalo 5 minutes ago in any case!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
I think the only thing you can say to him is, "Look,I WILL NOT take you on this hunt and not take a dime from anyone you do book with...but you need to not do this as planned for XYZ reasons. In stead, if you are truly set on Zim and elephants, go with guy XYZ with the full knowledge that I am telling you this with no financial interest whatsoever". If he chooses not to believe you, then you have done all you can.

FWIW, I think this is the right thing to do. No guilty feelings for not telling the poor sucker, no qualms about looking like you're pissing in someone's cheerios either. Might end up earning you a client in the long run.

JPK

My thought/understanding was that the Lacey Act was only broken/invoked if you transport an illegally taken animal across either state or international lines. In other words if he does an illegal hunt and leaves all trophies there he is in the clear by USA rules. That said I'm not a lawyer, I don't think it's a good idea doing these hunts, and I think you're right for telling him.

Brett

Brett, you are correct on the INTENT of the Lacy Act and how it SHOULD work. But the anti-hunter run USFWS has tried to expand the original intent of the law to include leaving the US to violate a foreign law...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...691095141#7691095141

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm

Lacey Act 16 USC section 3370
United States of America

United States Code Annotated Currentness. Title 16. Conservation. Chapter 53. Control of Illegally Taken Fish and Wildlife.

Statute Details
Printable Version
Citation: 16 USC 3371 - 3378

Citation: 95 Stat. 1073

Last Checked by Web Center Staff: 11/09

Summary:

The Lacey Act provides that it is unlawful for any person to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law whether in interstate or foreign commerce. Violation of this federal act can result in civil penalties up to $10,000 per each violation or maximum criminal sanctions of $20,000 in fines and/or up to five years imprisonment. All plants or animals taken in violation of the Act are subject to forfeiture as well as all vessels, vehicles, aircraft, and other equipment used to aid in the importing, exporting, transporting, selling, receiving, acquiring, or purchasing of fish or wildlife or plants in a criminal violation of this chapter for which a felony conviction is obtained where the owner should have known of the illegal transgression.


Personally & considering the penalties, I wouldn't take any chances & if I did, I wouldn't mention it to anyone.

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42067.pdf


Page 3 and 4 of this report has some good information.

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:
My thought/understanding was that the Lacey Act was only broken/invoked if you transport an illegally taken animal across either state or international lines. In other words if he does an illegal hunt and leaves all trophies there he is in the clear by USA rules. That said I'm not a lawyer, I don't think it's a good idea doing these hunts, and I think you're right for telling him.

Brett

Brett,
While I know of no evidence that it has ever been used to prosecute anyone in this way...what Steve says is correct. The act of breaking a game law in a foreign country IS a violation of the Lacey Act...whether or not anything is imported or not.

It is just difficult to prosecute with out the evidence.

Wendell,
This is precisely why I hunt with friends, or worst case, with friends of friends.

Charl:
It's very unlikely that I'll ever have the chance to make such a hunt. BUT: Know first hand that IF there's some question of such a hunt being illegal, or the seller being a scam artist. I'd damned sure want to know before it was too late.

I feel someone in your position should consider having a few handout copies of this Lacey act on hand just for such folks that don't have a clue to read up on things before they screw up.

Just my opinion, but, I'd sure appreciate it if you/anyone else would be considerate enough to suggest "I" go talk to so n so about it and find out more first.

Thank you sir, and thanks for posting this question.
George

The sad part is that we have had individuals here, who despite the fact they got advised against going on very shady hunts. They still persisted and gone.

They seem to think they either know better, or could not careless.

We as ethical hunters/Professional hunters are duty bound by our conscience to inform prospective clients of any possible violations. It can border libel, so need to be up to date about the situation.

Those that choose to ignore it must face the consequences.

Can any of the Zimbabwean outfitters on the forum comment on the hunt in question ?

It strikes me that the bigger issue in this case is the client might possibly find himself hunting on seized land rather than the possible Lacey Act violations and for that (former) issue, I'd suggest someone like Martin Pieters would be the best to give accurate, up to date advice.

I believe ' appropriated land ' and ' Lacey act 'violations are not one of the same.
Most ' appropriated areas' are NOT listed as being illegal to hunt.
Ethically and morally each to their own.

So in my opinion, unless the land in question is listed as a ' banned area' or unless the beneficiary is listed on the ' banned list' then I believe it can be hunted.
Due diligence should be conducted in all areas one chooses to hunt regardless of where and who you hunt with.
As far as i am aware ' ALL sanctions on listed individuals were lifted recently bar a few individuals, I am not sue if this means the listed individuals are on or off any ' banned list'.

I wish it were clear as it would be far better for local operators to conduct safaris in these appropriated areas thus maintaining standards, preserving wildlife, adding value through anti poaching, water and roads and generally making sure wildlife remains for future generations.
This would reduce the number of unscrupulous foreign operators taking advantage of these areas, I must add that there are several good foreign operators conducting legal hunts throughout Zimbabwe, so I not pointing fingers at everyone and I am not generalizing.

Thanks Martin. Would you care to comment on the " Ration Elephants " that are supposedly available inside the Park.

Jan

Commercial ration hunts within parks estate.

Legal but ethically and morally wrong. They are tame, who wants to shoot a tame elephant with a name!
My 11 year old son walks up to them on a daily basis!!!

Rules


No export
Maximum size
Various restrictions on who and where you can shoot.

If rules are broken, hefty fines

Anyone who conducts a hunt in a national park is totally against conservation and what we as hunters strive for.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Jan

Commercial ration hunts within parks estate.

Legal but ethically and morally wrong. They are tame, who wants to shoot a tame elephant with a name!
No export
Maximum size
Various restrictions on who and where you can shoot.

If rules are broken, hefty fines

Anyone who conducts a hunt in a national park is totally against conservation and what we as hunters strive for.

Well said Marty

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Jan

Commercial ration hunts within parks estate.

Legal but ethically and morally wrong. They are tame, who wants to shoot a tame elephant with a name!
My 11 year old son walks up to them on a daily basis!!!

Rules


No export
Maximum size
Various restrictions on who and where you can shoot.

If rules are broken, hefty fines

Anyone who conducts a hunt in a national park is totally against conservation and what we as hunters strive for.

Thanks Martin , that clarifies things.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Jan

Commercial ration hunts within parks estate.

Legal but ethically and morally wrong. They are tame, who wants to shoot a tame elephant with a name!
My 11 year old son walks up to them on a daily basis!!!

Rules


No export
Maximum size
Various restrictions on who and where you can shoot.

If rules are broken, hefty fines

Anyone who conducts a hunt in a national park is totally against conservation and what we as hunters strive for.

Marty,

One conservationist who has made a case for hunting in Hwange was Ron Thompson in his book "Mahohboh". Have things changed since it was written?

465H&H

They have always shot elephant in Hwange just not on a commercial scale !
Previously the shooting was conducted by either national parks rangers for training and for rations or by an experienced culling team! The method of population control by authorities is sanctioned and above board and is conducted after scientific research.

I reiterate anyone who shoots a park bull in Hwange national park is not a hunter! Might as well shoot a barn door.
I am sure there are some on AR that have shot elephant inside Hwange on a ' so called hunt ' shame on you.
Elephant should be hunted not shot!!

+1 and AMEN to that!

quote:

who wants to shoot a tame elephant with a name

What you might call a "canned elephant"

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:

I am sure there are some on AR that have shot elephant inside Hwange on a ' so called hunt ' shame on you.
Elephant should be hunted not shot!!

So you don't think there should be any trophy hunting at all inside Hwange or other National Parks?

100% no commercial hunting within a national park!

Love that logic, the parks need money, the country needs money, but "Hell no, don't shoot semi-tame elephants for money, just kill 'em for nothing."

quote:

100% no commercial hunting within a national park!

Agreed

Need to cull or sort out a problem animal? Its the Park Ranger's job; the meat, hide etc. can be disposed of accordingly and the ivory is State property.

Love that logic ,parks need money , country needs money , " let's rape and pillage the resources regardless"!!!
Seriously !!

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
100% no commercial hunting within a national park!

What Martin says here has been a cornerstone of policy for close on 50 years in Zimbabwe. There are plenty of areas close to/bordering on National parks where one may legally hunt any animal. The whole idea is based on INVIOLATE areas (National Parks) that provide an INVIOLATE resource and are surrounded by a ring of hunting areas that provide a BUFFER to the Park, while in return , the Park provides a protected source of future stock should we infallible (?!?) wildlife managers manage to cock up.

So YES, Martin is 100% right. There are plenty of areas in Zim and Tz and elsewhere to go and have a good hunt. LEAVE THE PARKS ALONE as far as commercial hunting is concerned, and I have not even touched on the PR side of this.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
100% no commercial hunting within a national park!

What Martin says here has been a cornerstone of policy for close on 50 years in Zimbabwe. There are plenty of areas close to/bordering on National parks where one may legally hunt any animal. The whole idea is based on INVIOLATE areas (National Parks) that provide an INVIOLATE resource and are surrounded by a ring of hunting areas that provide a BUFFER to the Park, while in return , the Park provides a protected source of future stock should we infallible (?!?) wildlife managers manage to cock up.

So YES, Martin is 100% right. There are plenty of areas in Zim and Tz and elsewhere to go and have a good hunt. LEAVE THE PARKS ALONE as far as commercial hunting is concerned, and I have not even touched on the PR side of this.

From Martin Pieters:

quote:

They have always shot elephant in Hwange just not on a commercial scale !
Previously the shooting was conducted by either national parks rangers for training and for rations or by an experienced culling team! The method of population control by authorities is sanctioned and above board and is conducted after scientific research.

Yep, sounds pretty damned inviolate to me.

BTW I want to be clear that I am not suggesting that shooting park elephants is true hunting. What I am stating as a fact is that IF elephants are going to be killed in the park anyway, for whatever reason, then a paying client with accompanying park rangers, PH, etc who would pay for the priviledge is better for the Park, Country, and economy as a whole than letting a park ranger or shooter on a salary kill him. If it offends your sensibilities of true hunting, ehhhhh, don't call it true hunting.

I want a hunt not a shoot as much as anyone.

My quandry is that Bell and others were probably hunting bulls that we would call tame, or at least uneducated. I'm not sure exposure to people makes elephants less agressive. In any event, hunting such naive bulls then was laudible, doing it now is not.

Somewhat confused.

I welcome comments.

It wasn't laudable, it wasn't hunting, it was business.

I understand where Martin is coming from. This does however leave the question : when Elephants cross the park boundaries into hunting areas , is it then OK to hunt them ?

Jan , I have been operating for 21 years as a PH in Zimbabwe and I have spent almost my entire life ( when not at boarding school )in national parks ( Hwange mainly ) and hunting camps.
I have witnessed many, many times reactions by elephant in particular when confronted by humans, on the park side they are docile, to the point of being tame ( tolerant is a better word ), the very same elephant cross the border and they KNOW where they are!!
Their reactions towards people change and they become a completely different beast.
So yes, they are hunted outside the park, that is why there are buffer areas,campfire forestry, private land and safari areas. I personally conduct a lot of hunts on the boundary of Hwange and enjoy it immensely.

That is where hunting should take place, NOT inside a park, it is absolute bullshit and it is only happening because of where Zimbabwe is at the moment.

The system has issues right now due to financial constraints ( call it whatever you want ) and we as custodians should not under any circumstances abuse our role.

Martin

There is seems to be a bit of contradiction here.

Both Jonathan and Martin are right, hunting should not be done inside the park.

But, as shooting them for culling is done by park personnel inside the park, do the elephants actually make a distinction of who is shooting them?

Here is where Gatogordo has a point too.

If a reduction in population is necessary, why doesn't parks allow extra quota outside the park?

That might also include bulls and cows.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Love that logic ,parks need money , country needs money , " let's rape and pillage the resources regardless"!!!
Seriously !!

Truth be told it has nothing to do with raising money for National Parks or the national treasury, it has to do with corrupt bureaucrats using their positions to feather their own beds financially. Every one of Martin's posts above have been 100% spot on. If you are engaged in commercial hunting inside a national park in Zim, regardless of what the law says or some form signed by some corrupt bureaucrat says, you are acting in an unethical, immoral manner completely antithetical to the conservation interests hunters should support.