Gentlemen:

We as hunters are losing the battle. We are fighting amongst ourselves. Hell, even hunters disagree on what is fine to hunt (for example elephants).

Here we are on AR yet again whining and complaining about SCI. Yet, few seem to be willing or abLe to do something about it.

I am a life member of SCI. While they regularly piss me off and/or puzzle me, I am going to support them. They are one of the few organizations for hunters advocacy. Should they do better? Hell yes they should .

What has gotten me all stirred up this morning ? See the pic below. This was in today's Orlando Sentinel.



This is Orlando! Not NYC, not San Francisco.

Gentlemen, we are having our asses handed to us while we just sit here and watch it happen. It reminds me of the social security disaster . We know it is there. We see it coming. Yet all anyone does is bitch and whine .

I am hopeful the survey wakes SCI up. Regardless , I am jumping in with both feet with the NRA. If the NRA comes through with what they say, they will be far more effective than SCI ever dreamed about . Regardless, I am going to continue to support SCI.

There may be some things occur that really rock SCI. That is all I am going to say for now.

Wake up gentlemen . If you don't , I truly believe the end is near.

Now carry on bitching about SCI.

Larry while I really admire everyone's passion on elephant hunting the reality is there are governments outside of Africa who have a lot more money, power, and influence than SCI. SCI talks a good game, but when it comes to actual dollars and peddling influence, they have very little impact on decision making.

The only thing that African countries understand is the almighty dollar. If tourists and hunters would boycott a country altogether, then we as a community could sway opinion - and of course that isn't going to happen. At the end of the day, it's all about money and who is offering the most.

I am not suggesting that we simply give up, but we need to put dollars and influence in the hands of those who are really doing something to keep hunting open in Southern Africa. I am not sure that SCI is the avenue to make that happen.

http://www.huntingreport.com/c...ion_force.cfm?id=360



Antis File Petition to List All Elephant as Endangered


Written By John J. Jackson III, Conservation Force Chairman & President
(posted May 2015)

In February 11, 2015, four anti-hunting organizations filed a petition to list all elephant as endangered under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The petitioners are The International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW), Humane Society International (HSI), The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and The Fund for Animals (FfA). The petition is 130 pages long and obviously took months to prepare by pseudo-experts.

What is unique about this petition is its emphasis that legal trade endangers elephant. As unprecedented as the recent poaching crisis has been, less than ten pages are devoted to that. Fifty-five (55) pages build a case that legal trade is over-utilization that endangers the elephant. Five (5) pages address loss of habitat, fifteen (15) pages are directed at inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms and one page (1) covers disease as a threat. They are emphatic that legal trade has stimulated illegal trade, therefore legal trade has to be eliminated.

The antis take full advantage of the FWS suspension of trophy imports from Tanzania and Zimbabwe. They quote heavily from the suspension findings and FWS news releases about the rationale behind the suspensions. In doing that, they take a great deal out of context and demonstrate a lack of genuine knowledge about elephant and elephant management.

The FWS is required to make a 90-day finding whether or not a review is warranted and that takes a year or more in practice. In fact, the height of the recent poaching crisis has passed and is behind us. The poaching may not yet be at a level that can be sustained but it is close to that point.

There is too little reason to bear the costs of so many elephant without legitimate use and value. Also, I fully expect the suspension of elephant imports from Tanzania and Zimbabwe to be lifted long before the elephant can be listed if the petition does survive the 90-day finding process.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Larry while I really admire everyone's passion on elephant hunting the reality is there are governments outside of Africa who have a lot more money, power, and influence than SCI. SCI talks a good game, but when it comes to actual dollars and peddling influence, they have very little impact on decision making.

The only thing that African countries understand is the almighty dollar. If tourists and hunters would boycott a country altogether, then we as a community could sway opinion - and of course that isn't going to happen. At the end of the day, it's all about money and who is offering the most.

I am not suggesting that we simply give up, but we need to put dollars and influence in the hands of those who are really doing something to keep hunting open in Southern Africa. I am not sure that SCI is the avenue to make that happen.

Take hunting dollars out of the equation and then the Anti's will step in and fill that void. Kenya, Botswana as prime examples.

Larry is correct. My son is 10. He will not get to hunt lion and elephant in his life. So carry on keyboard warriors. We lose every day while nattering about SCI or DSC or whether some dead and gone African hunter buggered little boys.

SCI may be screwed up but they and Conservation Force and now NRA are all we have. As they say lead follow or get out of the way.

Likely the war is lost, but I for one intend to go down swinging.

Jeff

Opus:

I got your PM. It doesn't surprise me at all. In fact, I suspected as much.

Hunting advocacy, for me at least, is not just about elephant hunting and/or African hunting. it is about ALL hunting in ALL locations.

Some entity needs to step up. I really don't care which one. Just look at Kathi's article just posted.

I am like Jeff. I plan on going down swinging. I am not giving up. Something has to be done by someone.

My guess is that in 25 years or less, there will be very few wild African animals outside of Kruger-like preserves. You will have to come here to Texas to hunt for plains game in high fence areas.

My only concern is - is SCI the best organization to be counting on and investing in to protect access to hunting in southern Africa? From my perspective, maybe not so much. Unfortunately, I have not seen any other groups succeeding at a positively influencing governments to protect hunting access.

Botswana has so much money that they really do not give too much of a flip about hunting dollars, however, other countries do need hunting dollars to support the government. They are already feeling the pinch in lost revenues with the elephant and lion bans. Sooner or later, the loss of revenues will sway them to reopen access.

As I mentioned, if we as hunters want to make an impact, simply boycott those countries with restrictive hunting regulations. Of course it will destroy the outfitters, but that's the only effective way to make a point.

My only caution is be careful of organizations in this country playing on the hunting bans in order to raise more funds. Simply because they historically have done little to nothing to sway governments either way.

Larry, honestly, Africans I believe are to blame! We are ofcourse talking about African Eles and Rhino, ? CORRUPTION !!!!!!!

Should some of us start an web site " Hunters for Conservation " or something and start distributing scientic reports and articles expressing evidence stating that hunting save the variety of species, funds from hunting encourage development in different U-countries ( not only Africa ) etc etc...

I do not know how, but surely there must be someone out there that is a communication spescialist that also hunts ? Or several ? Mixed together or owned by some other organizatons or ( maybe would be best ) just Hunters. Financed by sponsorships etc etc...

Someone has to talk together. Saeed has been able to establish AR. Mayebe someone else are able to establish HFC ? First meeting set up in Dallas nedt year !! ?? Put in the market by mouth amongst fellow Hunters. pay a contribution of 50-100 dollars each making that someone or Group establisg and ditribute the web site ???

I am just an Accountant... but love to hunt in future ! Just a thought ...


Morten

The only problem is, your $100,000 is trying to compete with someone else's $100,000,000. The only statement that we can make as a hunting community is a boycott and then you are most certainly going to hurt the outfitters first and foremost.

The last two organizations that had any real influence in Africa was the The Shikar Club and Game Conservation International under Harry Tennison and others. They established many parks and tried very hard to keep northern Africa open for hunting, but ultimately failed due to government collapse and tribal wars.

At the end of the day, hunting in Africa is going to ebb and flow depending upon the whims of the people in charge. And unfortunately, the people in charge are infantiles...

I AGREE WITH LARRY AND BWANA BUNDUKI. I also think the end is near if we cannot make a concerted effort. At least my money is going to support the groups that can help us. And Bwana Bunduki......I do not think my grandson will ever have the opportunities that I have had. At least my daughters got to go!

I am with you Larry.

We have a problem of the most serious magnitude. There are 2 groups that need to be influenced. These are:

Governments
The non hunting public

The NRA has the numbers and political clout to impact the US government. Even if SCI was functioning perfectly, it doesn't have the numbers or the clout to have the same impact on government.

I really don't see anyone attempting to influence the non-hunting public. I see a lot of preaching to the choir which, of course, accomplishes nothing.

Complaining herein about SCI is accomplishing nothing.

Finally, Morten, as you know, I am "just an accountant" too!

Which group / association / etc is not what we need to focus on... the anti's and (left-wing) media IS!

If we can afford to hunt elephant, we can afford to support all the groups fighting for our rights / sport. We can all do as much as each of us can.

Yes I know Larry. I think all of the AR members have the same goal - we want to hunt and we believe hunting is something good with regard to keep a sound and stable amount of wild life.

However, I do not believe that some organizations in US are the best to distribute our goals. NRA and SCI is discussed a lot on AR mainly between american Hunters. I think you are correct ; SCI has a very small number of members and have trophy hunting as main goal. There is a good deal of stories about SCI members with negative comments. NRA is, as I understand it, an organization to protect the rights of an american to own guns. That is not what we really want either.

You speak about goverments and the non hunting people. From my part of the world I do not think to be honest my government care a lot about African elephants. Maybe NRA can do a job against the US government. My thought was that the non hunting People need facts and facts that are neutral.

My experience is that when I tell People I want to hunt elephants, People eyes get wide open and they ask - but is'nt that illegal ? And is'nt the elephant a threatened animal ? Then I start telling them about numbers of legal Licenses sold by the 5 countries that sell, the numbers of elephants in Africa in total, numbers in Zimbabawe, numbers in Botswana, Camp Fire Programs, increasin encounters between farners and elephant, destroyed crops, payments from osafari operators to villages and Parks ( Myles showed me the numbers from CMS side - impressive ampounts of dollars ) .... I tell about all meat the villagers get etc etc... People's attitude turns around quite a bit and they start to understand. Some even say ; hey why do we not get these stories....

Because this is not the goodies sold by journalists, Green People etc etc. The tragic accident with Ian Gibson was another example of how media turns something into a selling story...

I do not have the final answer and I agree with Opus1 - but if something is not done... and it is posssible to start something with relatively small amount of Money. I feel very strongly about that, but I do not know how to start...

Anyone having any ideas out there ?

Morten

It really is frustrating! What CAN we do? I will talk to anyone that will listen about the endangered Elephant propaganda, and it really is amazing how many that ask me about it go on to find out that it really is propaganda.

How can we do more?
What avenues?


.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Should some of us start an web site " Hunters for Conservation " or something and start distributing scientic reports and articles expressing evidence stating that hunting save the variety of species, funds from hunting encourage development in different U-countries ( not only Africa ) etc etc...

I do not know how, but surely there must be someone out there that is a communication spescialist that also hunts ? Or several ? Mixed together or owned by some other organizatons or ( maybe would be best ) just Hunters. Financed by sponsorships etc etc...

Someone has to talk together. Saeed has been able to establish AR. Mayebe someone else are able to establish HFC ? First meeting set up in Dallas nedt year !! ?? Put in the market by mouth amongst fellow Hunters. pay a contribution of 50-100 dollars each making that someone or Group establisg and ditribute the web site ???

I am just an Accountant... but love to hunt in future ! Just a thought ...


Morten

GREAT IDEA but in all honesty I think you are better off doing it on Facebook in the first instance. Facebook is the medium to reach out to the non-hunting public. With Facebook we can distribute whatever materials and media we wish... links to documents and research, images, video, commentary... members can help make the content go viral.

We (collectively) have the resources to do it - We have professionals to administer accounts and such, members with Facebook expertise set it up and link content, active members source material and encourage everyone to donate funds to 'promote it' on Facebook to the widest audience possible. This could be up and running within a week.

Look at the 'reach' that some of 'our' people have... Eva Shockey has over 700,000 people looking at her linked material alone. You KNOW they arent all hunters.

There is a huge issue with societal ADD. We have an electorate for example that chooses it's leaders from 30 second sound bites. Emotion takes the place of logic and reason. I used the example somewhere else that most of your US whitetail deer hunters see no need to shoot an elephant. Hell we aren't even managing to educate other hunters. THAT is how badly we are failing.

We are getting our ass kicked.

Jeff

Further to my Facebook idea - there already is an established 'Hunting for Conservation' FB page. Perhaps the owner of that would be interested in having a bunch of us jump onboard and pump it up with content and $$ for promotion?

https://www.facebook.com/pages...974598473852?fref=ts

What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
There is a huge issue with societal ADD. We have an electorate for example that chooses it's leaders from 30 second sound bites. Emotion takes the place of logic and reason. I used the example somewhere else that most of your US whitetail deer hunters see no need to shoot an elephant. Hell we aren't even managing to educate other hunters. THAT is how badly we are failing.

We are getting our ass kicked.

Jeff

A post I can finally relate to. You are on target. Most hunters are way out of synch with what the people on here are talking about..... or SCI in its current form.

You look at Safari magazine and see a few rich guys buying genetically enhance bucks in a high fenced whitetail operation. You see guys going to Tanzania.......... oh ya a lot in common with who? Who has disposable income for a $200K safari? Some on here and many in the SCI top ranks.

Even here on AR........... Saeed no disrespect intended, nor for some of you. But look at the realities. Your average US hunter has nothing in common and quite frankly agrees with much of what they see about killing else.

The big fix that is needed is connecting the common every day hunter in all the countries that currently have hunting......... with the orgs that can do it.

NRA...... great if you are a Yank.

SCI..... works for international issues as well as USA

DSC......... good org. Lacks putting money on the ground in other places than TX and Africa.
Sorry but true, that is the way it is viewed.

AR.......
Small sections of the shooters/hunters. Much smaller than the members think. Many people rich and famous have no idea about
AR...... you/we think above our importance. Which is not much.

D

Larry,
The problem with SCI is that they frequently (really read most of the time) trip over their own genitals...IE: the lion debacle.

Then when someone gives them a jock-strap (IE: as Aaron and I did)...they use it as a slingshot!

Really ......

The Norwegian is on the right track here. IMO the reason we are failing is because we are unable to paint the picture of why hunting has an important role in conservation and show it to hunters and non-hunters. Note hunting is not the only solution but part of the solution in many places.

The anti hunters are kicking our asses because they are experts on painting a picture that shows a bad image of hunters and puts us in the same brackets as poachers.

I think the majority of non hunting people in this world don't have much of an opinion on hunting. These are the people we need to win over before the anti's do with their misleading campaigns.

Exactly as Morten mentions, I have many a time started talking to people about hunting and to begin with they are very anti and didnt even think it was legal. But once you explain how it all works they understand and walk away with a positive opinion on hunting.

We need someone who can paint this picture to the world. Someone who can do research in the success areas where hunting is part of a long term sustainable conservation plan and prove to the world that it works.. And there are many of these place here in southern Africa that are doing really well. But no one seems to be able to show it.

quote:

Originally posted by poacher458:
The Norwegian is on the right track here. IMO the reason we are failing is because we are unable to paint the picture of why hunting has an important role in conservation and show it to hunters and non-hunters. Note hunting is not the only solution but part of the solution in many places.

The anti hunters are kicking our asses because they are experts on painting a picture that shows a bad image of hunters and puts us in the same brackets as poachers.

I think the majority of non hunting people in this world don't have much of an opinion on hunting. These are the people we need to win over before the anti's do with their misleading campaigns.

Exactly as Morten mentions, I have many a time started talking to people about hunting and to begin with they are very anti and didnt even think it was legal. But once you explain how it all works they understand and walk away with a positive opinion on hunting.

We need someone who can paint this picture to the world. Someone who can do research in the success areas where hunting is part of a long term sustainable conservation plan and prove to the world that it works.. And there are many of these place here in southern Africa that are doing really well. But no one seems to be able to show it.

Very well put.

quote:

Originally posted by poacher458:

We need someone who can paint this picture to the world. Someone who can do research in the success areas where hunting is part of a long term sustainable conservation plan and prove to the world that it works.. And there are many of these place here in southern Africa that are doing really well. But no one seems to be able to show it.

We have loads of people right here on AR, who can paint this picture very well.

Ok - so ideas comes up.

It is possible that Facebook as you say Matt could be a start ? The technology is there and the distribution is there on a world wide basis.

Should the Facebook " Hunting for Conservation " have a seperate web site ? Should we invite scientific people to make their work public on these media ? How to organize it so that the non hunting mass believe in what is written and presented in public ?

Should we organize a new " AR " just as an scientic information site ? Should real life stories be presented ? Should we make an international Board of members deciding what to present ?

Should someone get together and sit down and decide to do something ? Deciding an international chapter of something ? And link it to Facebook Hunting for Conservation ?


Come on guys - speak up ?


Morten

More than convincing the public you need to convince the Governments and their burocrats. To do that you need convincing documents - similar to what IFAW have submitted lately. Those aren't cheap documents to prepare and are what ultimately government decisions are based on. The issue is that the large Anti orgs are producing convincing documents every month backed by scientific and economic papers supporting their applications.

The US and other Governments, are not going to ask the public to vote, yes or no, but will use the most convincing documents and reports to guide their decision. At the moment, the Anti's are winning that race.

We also need a number of pro-hunting spoekespersons " a la Joubert".

Saddest part of it all is that we are such a minority and when majority dictates what minority should or shouldn't not do, you get the point.
Well, that's tough deal.
Bottom line, we have to fight tooth and nail and also hopefully get Republican
administration in couple of years
Out last hope...
Thanks Larry for bringing this up

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Gentlemen:

We as hunters are losing the battle. We are fighting amongst ourselves. Hell, even hunters disagree on what is fine to hunt (for example elephants).

Here we are on AR yet again whining and complaining about SCI. Yet, few seem to be willing or abLe to do something about it.

I am a life member of SCI. While they regularly piss me off and/or puzzle me, I am going to support them. They are one of the few organizations for hunters advocacy. Should they do better? Hell yes they should .

What has gotten me all stirred up this morning ? See the pic below. This was in today's Orlando Sentinel.

This is Orlando! Not NYC, not San Francisco.

Gentlemen, we are having our asses handed to us while we just sit here and watch it happen. It reminds me of the social security disaster . We know it is there. We see it coming. Yet all anyone does is bitch and whine .

I am hopeful the survey wakes SCI up. Regardless , I am jumping in with both feet with the NRA. If the NRA comes through with what they say, they will be far more effective than SCI ever dreamed about . Regardless, I am going to continue to support SCI.

There may be some things occur that really rock SCI. That is all I am going to say for now.

Wake up gentlemen . If you don't , I truly believe the end is near.

Now carry on bitching about SCI.

Well, I'm a member of the NRA and DSC and am all for animal conservation and legal sport hunting. However, there are things such as feeding hungry children/orphans, helping widows, serving the needy who cannot help themselves, etc that are much more important to me than the survival of an elephant or rhino. IMHO we have all lost sight of what is truly important.

Ummm, hunting is what feeds the children/orphans and widows...

It does not matter what you think about this issue, we always get to the same conclusions, and yet hardly anyone ends up doing anything.

The solution happens to be quite undefined.

The media is poison. It misleads and continuously misinforms the non-hunting public.

Besides this, there are far more anti-hunting campaigns than pro-hunting campaigns, or at least that is the feeling that I get. If I get this feeling, the non-hunters are likely to get it too.

And as several have previously stated, there is no organization that stands for the -general? widest? broadest?- idea of hunting.

In my country there has always been a very strong hunting tradition. Certainly, those families in which at least one of the members has been linked to the countryside understand the importance of hunting.

However, the problem underlies in the new generations. There is no contact whatsoever of these generations with the countryside. It is incredible when I realize that some have never even seen a live wild boar, not to say a roe deer, for example.

We have the facts, and most importantly we have the WINNING facts. The solution underlies in finding how to transmit them, and who to transmit them to.

Hey I resemble that remark. Not sure what to think of it but I agree with you premise but hope we can still discuss African Hunting subjects in the African hunting forum?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Larry while I really admire everyone's passion on elephant hunting the reality is there are governments outside of Africa who have a lot more money, power, and influence than SCI. SCI talks a good game, but when it comes to actual dollars and peddling influence, they have very little impact on decision making.

The only thing that African countries understand is the almighty dollar. If tourists and hunters would boycott a country altogether, then we as a community could sway opinion - and of course that isn't going to happen. At the end of the day, it's all about money and who is offering the most.

I am not suggesting that we simply give up, but we need to put dollars and influence in the hands of those who are really doing something to keep hunting open in Southern Africa. I am not sure that SCI is the avenue to make that happen.

Take hunting dollars out of the equation and then the Anti's will step in and fill that void. Kenya, Botswana as prime examples.

Larry is correct. My son is 10. He will not get to hunt lion and elephant in his life. So carry on keyboard warriors. We lose every day while nattering about SCI or DSC or whether some dead and gone African hunter buggered little boys.

SCI may be screwed up but they and Conservation Force and now NRA are all we have. As they say lead follow or get out of the way.

Likely the war is lost, but I for one intend to go down swinging.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Ummm, hunting is what feeds the children/orphans and widows...

In the USA? I wasn't aware of that.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Ummm, hunting is what feeds the children/orphans and widows...

In the USA? I wasn't aware of that.

No reason why it cant and does in some areas... Hunters For Hungry

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Ummm, hunting is what feeds the children/orphans and widows...

In the USA? I wasn't aware of that.

Actually yes, there is a lot of game meat programs that do just exactly that even here in the US. AND ALSO, hunting meat and dollars also feed a whole bunch more Africans. Cutting off their protein source and revenue source is hurting them and the governments are hardly stepping in to assist. So most of the locals who once depended on hunting revenues have now turned to poaching to feed themselves.

So you guys are going to tell me that a program such as Hunters for the Hungry, a program for which I provide probably 15 deer a year for, will solve all of our food shortage problems for the needy here in the USA ? Seriously? I'm sure you're well aware these same people need clothing, shelter, medical care, etc? Come on now.....My wife is a social worker, I know better. If that were true then why are there still people starving here?

It does feed some, but most are fed by our tax dollars through EBT cards and such and they eat better than many of us.

quote:

So you guys are going to tell me that a program such as Hunters for the Hungry, a program for which I provide probably 15 deer a year for, will solve all of our food shortage problems for the needy here in the USA ? Seriously? I'm sure you're well aware these same people need clothing, shelter, medical care, etc? Come on now.....My wife is a social worker, I know better. If that were true then why are there still people starving here?

That is as accurate as it gets concerning the hunters for the hungry programs.

Unless things have changed in the past 5 years or so, the same type program in the state of Pennsylvania was shut down by "Concerned" citizens because the meat was NOT USDA inspected.

In this part of Texas, it is almost impossible to give processed feral hog meat away, because people on welfare have came to expect/accept better quality.

UEG
They may not eat better but the ones I see are definitely fatter.

JGRaider.
You are one of those misguided individuals, that infiltrates our ranks and say shit that don't make any sense and most likely you are fine with antis.
Driving sports car doesn't feed children but nobody is banning them. So is smoking, drinking etc. you get the point.
You are fucked up in your head to say shit like this. Really Dude