quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Gentlemen:

We as hunters are losing the battle. We are fighting amongst ourselves. Hell, even hunters disagree on what is fine to hunt (for example elephants).

Here we are on AR yet again whining and complaining about SCI. Yet, few seem to be willing or abLe to do something about it.

I am a life member of SCI. While they regularly piss me off and/or puzzle me, I am going to support them. They are one of the few organizations for hunters advocacy. Should they do better? Hell yes they should .

What has gotten me all stirred up this morning ? See the pic below. This was in today's Orlando Sentinel.

This is Orlando! Not NYC, not San Francisco.

Gentlemen, we are having our asses handed to us while we just sit here and watch it happen. It reminds me of the social security disaster . We know it is there. We see it coming. Yet all anyone does is bitch and whine .

I am hopeful the survey wakes SCI up. Regardless , I am jumping in with both feet with the NRA. If the NRA comes through with what they say, they will be far more effective than SCI ever dreamed about . Regardless, I am going to continue to support SCI.

There may be some things occur that really rock SCI. That is all I am going to say for now.

Wake up gentlemen . If you don't , I truly believe the end is near.

Now carry on bitching about SCI.

Well, I'm a member of the NRA and DSC and am all for animal conservation and legal sport hunting. However, there are things such as feeding hungry children/orphans, helping widows, serving the needy who cannot help themselves, etc that are much more important to me than the survival of an elephant or rhino. IMHO we have all lost sight of what is truly important.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This whole african sport hunting needs to be put in pure cost benefit analysis and sold to the non hunting public in that context.

The days of wild african hunting are gone. I would use Bubye or Save as the standard going forward.

There are more than enough Agricultural and Resource economics departments at US land grant university. Maybe SCI or DSC gives money to one of them to do a proper scientific cost benefit study. Taking the rational approach cause the emotional approach does not favor hunters with pictures of them cutting tails of dead elephants.

Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This whole african sport hunting needs to be put in pure cost benefit analysis and sold to the non hunting public in that context.

The days of wild african hunting are gone. I would use Bubye or Save as the standard going forward.

There are more than enough Agricultural and Resource economics departments at US land grant university. Maybe SCI or DSC gives money to one of them to do a proper scientific cost benefit study. Taking the rational approach cause the emotional approach does not favor hunters with pictures of them cutting tails of dead elephants.

Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

An opinion perhaps but not a very well informed one. When you talk about 'no one's primary goal is conservation' - that may be true if the only hunting was the pursuit of trophy animals - where there may be no care for the meat or other factors in the pursuit .... but that is simply not the case. There are lots of reasons why people hunt - for meat it isnt always the 'rational economic agents' driving the hunter to freeze his arse off in a tree-stand for a week. Many hunters participate in the management of game species - yes that is called conservation - with many by-products - meat, enjoyment, trophy perhaps? Without hunting these game animals may not do so well - and locking them in a national park may not be best for them either. Some stewardship may be required and hunters are the best stewards - they want to preserve the game animals!

No doubt chicken/egg arguments can be made around that - but for the purposes of promotion to the general public .... 'Hunting Equals Conservation' is a perfectly valid representation... in my humble opinion.

Talk to MANY Aussie hunters and they will tell you very quickly that the main reason they hunt is to help conserve non-game native species and the 'environment'. Yes they go shooting invasive foxes, pigs and feral cats to do their part and yes of course they enjoy it too - but 'conservation' is a major driver.

'Blood Sport' ... no thank you very much. I can hunt for a week and go home empty handed and be totally satisfied with my 'sport'.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
An opinion perhaps but not a very well informed one. When you talk about 'no one's primary goal is conservation' - that may be true if the only hunting was the pursuit of trophy animals - where there may be no care for the meat or other factors in the pursuit .... but that is simply not the case. There are lots of reasons why people hunt - for meat it isnt always the 'rational economic agents' driving the hunter to freeze his arse off in a tree-stand for a week. Many hunters participate in the management of game species - yes that is called conservation - with many by-products - meat, enjoyment, trophy perhaps? Without hunting these game animals may not do so well - and locking them in a national park may not be best for them either. Some stewardship may be required and hunters are the best stewards - they want to preserve the game animals!

No doubt chicken/egg arguments can be made around that - but for the purposes of promotion to the general public .... 'Hunting Equals Conservation' is a perfectly valid representation... in my humble opinion.

Talk to MANY Aussie hunters and they will tell you very quickly that the main reason they hunt is to help conserve non-game native species and the 'environment'. Yes they go shooting invasive foxes, pigs and feral cats to do their part and yes of course they enjoy it too - but 'conservation' is a major driver.

'Blood Sport' ... no thank you very much. I can hunt for a week and go home empty handed and be totally satisfied with my 'sport'.

Matt - if you read the whole post as well as stuff you quoted its written in context of African hunting.

Also you can go hunt all week or all year and come home empty handed and be very happy. You cannot go to DSC or SCI set up a booth and not show pictures of dead animals. You don't go there and sell an experience where most likely you will not kill anything.

Hunting is a business - nothing wrong with it. People (outfitters, governments ect) need to make money, hunters need to get an expensive vacation and animals gets killed (and utilized) as part and parcel of it. The activity is the use of renewable resource and how it is harvested should be a function of ecology and economics.

This hunting as conservation is a nice marketing thing. Try getting SCI to get billboards/ads at airports with pictures of hunters next to dead animals. Its all public relations. The anti hunting guys are also a business - their in the fund raising business.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
My grandfather was a hunter, my father hunted my brother and I are hunters. 90% of all our friends are hunters. And these are not just American friends but friends all over the world. None of their children are hunters or interested that much in hunting. I have no children so what does that tell you. Just one man's story but reflective of the future I guess!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This whole african sport hunting needs to be put in pure cost benefit analysis and sold to the non hunting public in that context.

The days of wild african hunting are gone. I would use Bubye or Save as the standard going forward.

There are more than enough Agricultural and Resource economics departments at US land grant university. Maybe SCI or DSC gives money to one of them to do a proper scientific cost benefit study. Taking the rational approach cause the emotional approach does not favor hunters with pictures of them cutting tails of dead elephants.

Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This whole african sport hunting needs to be put in pure cost benefit analysis and sold to the non hunting public in that context.

The days of wild african hunting are gone. I would use Bubye or Save as the standard going forward.

There are more than enough Agricultural and Resource economics departments at US land grant university. Maybe SCI or DSC gives money to one of them to do a proper scientific cost benefit study. Taking the rational approach cause the emotional approach does not favor hunters with pictures of them cutting tails of dead elephants.

Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

Mike we might have to debate that over a cold one.

Currently I am looking at some 50,000 hectares across the river from me that is unexplored by hunters. Swamps and no roads and the only images I have are from Google earth. It is quite something to explore new territories.

The Kaounde tell me that there are numerous Sitatunga and two water features that this tribe avoids due to the presence of river monsters.

As hunters we may have to adapt and whilst the import/export of some species maybe affect us there will be lots of good country where a man can carry a gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This whole african sport hunting needs to be put in pure cost benefit analysis and sold to the non hunting public in that context.

The days of wild african hunting are gone. I would use Bubye or Save as the standard going forward.

There are more than enough Agricultural and Resource economics departments at US land grant university. Maybe SCI or DSC gives money to one of them to do a proper scientific cost benefit study. Taking the rational approach cause the emotional approach does not favor hunters with pictures of them cutting tails of dead elephants.

Also this whole hunting as conservation thing is a joke. Hunting is an economic activity (very expensive one). Conservation is a by product of a renewable resource that is harvested over time by rational economic agents. No ones primary goal is conservation - if it was that we would not be killing animals (its a blood sport) and instead give money to create massive self contained preserves or national parks. Again that is not going to happen and in Africa it would be all wasted. So hunting is a second best (not perfectly ideal) blood sport that yields the best outcome for animals and wildlife over time. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are killing animals for conservation - we are doing it for a blood sport.

Just one man's opinion.

Mike

Mike we might have to debate that over a cold one.

Currently I am looking at some 50,000 hectares across the river from me that is unexplored by hunters. Swamps and no roads and the only images I have are from Google earth. It is quite something to explore new territories.

The Kaounde tell me that there are numerous Sitatunga and two water features that this tribe avoids due to the presence of river monsters.

As hunters we may have to adapt and whilst the import/export of some species maybe affect us there will be lots of good country where a man can carry a gun.

Andrew

I am willing to forgo the hippo hunt in Nov to go check it out with you.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff SN:
I may lighten the mood a little bit. I took my 8 year old daughter to hogle zoo in Salt Lake City on Saturday. This poster about killing elephants from the top was everywhere when we went to see the elephants.
Just so you know my kid is very proud of her dad "whacking" an elephant as she calls it.
We had a woman who was an "expert" explaining to us to grim situation of elephants, and hunting them, when Katie (my daughter age eight) all by herself stepped up and asked the lady what she had done to save elephants. This "zookeeper expert or whatever you want to call her" gave Katie a blank look and could not answer. Katie then went on to tell her, "dad" had shot an elephant in Zimbabwe and she had seen the pictures of people that it fed. She then went on to tell her that dad gives money to DAPU which fights poaching, and so what had she done?
After a long awkward silence we headed to the white rhinos next to the elephants, when we left my daughter said "dad why was she so mad"? All I could say was kid you done good. This is one of the reasons I'm glad to be a father.
This happened on 5/9/15.

Thanks for reading. Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff SN:
I may lighten the mood a little bit. I took my 8 year old daughter to hogle zoo in Salt Lake City on Saturday. This poster about killing elephants from the top was everywhere when we went to see the elephants.
Just so you know my kid is very proud of her dad "whacking" an elephant as she calls it.
We had a woman who was an "expert" explaining to us to grim situation of elephants, and hunting them, when Katie (my daughter age eight) all by herself stepped up and asked the lady what she had done to save elephants. This "zookeeper expert or whatever you want to call her" gave Katie a blank look and could not answer. Katie then went on to tell her, "dad" had shot an elephant in Zimbabwe and she had seen the pictures of people that it fed. She then went on to tell her that dad gives money to DAPU which fights poaching, and so what had she done?
After a long awkward silence we headed to the white rhinos next to the elephants, when we left my daughter said "dad why was she so mad"? All I could say was kid you done good. This is one of the reasons I'm glad to be a father.
This happened on 5/9/15.

Thanks for reading. Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
My grandfather was a hunter, my father hunted my brother and I are hunters. 90% of all our friends are hunters. And these are not just American friends but friends all over the world. None of their children are hunters or interested that much in hunting. I have no children so what does that tell you. Just one man's story but reflective of the future I guess!