quote:

Ledvm,
I'm now confused on which post

.465,
http://forums.accuratereloadin...281052321#1281052321

Ledvm,

Thanks for the reminder. Obviously, I agree completely with your premis that you can have too much velocity. Ganyana also believes this and has posted that position numerous times. I was simply stating that another way to increase penetration, assuming that it is desireable, is to increase bullet weight and reduce velocity. Using that method will usually allow more penetration with out causing bullet deformation.

Ganyana believes and I agree that at the normal velocity 2,550 fps for 300 grain solids in the 375 H&H you can expect bullet deformation or worse, Going to the 350 grain at 2,200 to 2,300 will probably solve that problem.

465H&H

I should have mentioned this one little bit before, as it does go along with what you both are saying.

I was corisponding with Randy Garrett of Garrett cartridges just over a year ago in the pursuit of developing a new bullet that would mark the next step in extreme bullet penetration and design...another revolutionary step...ya, ya, ya, I know.

Well, he layed it all out for me, how a bullet should be designed, and as to why velocity does adversly effect penetration. His perfect sweet spot was: as heavy a bullet as can be shot while still being stable (the very difficult part) and attain an impact velocity of 1500-1800. He seen little gain with 1800-2000, and as you can imagine, an exponentially declining curve to near zero. If one could graph this (I'm out of time today), you would see it look very much like a ballistic trajectory, with the meplat diameter being the decisive factor in where the peak falls.

To give you a little understanding of it. In his testing, and it was VERY extensive, he chose his rounded flat nose 540 Hammerhead's with a meplat of .360 for the 1550fps spot. He went to a truncated cone with a meplat of .330 for his 420's at 1925fps. He also noted he tested over 700 grain bullets in his .458, and penetration was going exceptionally well (guessing around 1700fps) until the bullets started to tumble/veer off course in the latter part of their penetration.

So, to sum up. One should adjust the weight of the bullet to suit this velocity window according to how powerful your cartridge is. Now, you know we cannot do this. If that was so, then we would be shooting 700-800 grain bullets in our .458 mags, and 1000 grains in our big .50's, with twist rates on par with an M-16. So I guess the point is to try a few bullets with your combination and find the one that works best for you. And that's the beautiful part, you can test! That's what's fun about it!

Another point I like to bring up, is that it's not all about penetration. As Michael and many others have pointed out, you only need so much. If 50 inches is the mark, then go with a bigger meplat to accomidate. When this cannot be done, as with feeding reliability, you need a bullet to expand slightly...this is why I like what GS did so much! If I shoot such a powerful cartridge, I am looking to do more damamge; bigger shocked area, faster recovery, greater chance of drop-on-the-spot performance! Shoot 'em fast and USE the energy you have given the bullet, shoot it slower and let it reach the area it needs to. Tada! A smart bullet (as much as can be said about an inanimate object)

...off my soap box now :-)

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Ledvm,

Thanks for the reminder. Obviously, I agree completely with your premis that you can have too much velocity. Ganyana also believes this and has posted that position numerous times. I was simply stating that another way to increase penetration, assuming that it is desireable, is to increase bullet weight and reduce velocity. Using that method will usually allow more penetration with out causing bullet deformation.

Ganyana believes and I agree that at the normal velocity 2,550 fps for 300 grain solids in the 375 H&H you can expect bullet deformation or worse, Going to the 350 grain at 2,200 to 2,300 will probably solve that problem.

465H&H

.465,

I knew you believed the same as I. I was just elbowing you in the ribs for not defending me more vehemently as some scathed me on that post. Just ribbing you a little . Keep up the good info you present!

465H&H

quote:

I have noticed that the GS FN solids tend to have more nose distortion than North Forks and NF would be my preferred choice when I use a FN mono-metal solid.

This is probably your perception because the recovered FNs were fired at higher speeds than the NF FPs you have seen. If there are similar speed and caliber comparisons available, I would like to see them. If there is a difference, it would be interesting but of little significance in differing performance.

quote:

Increase the speed to 2,400 and above and they all go to hell.

No, they dont. As speed rises, at some point, some fail catastrophically because they distort in an uncontrolled manner. Not always, but often enough to make a statistic of it, they snap in half, bend in half or shatter completely. Some curve and veer off path (not always but often enough...)

Some distort in a controlled manner and keep on trucking, doing what a solid is supposed to do: Straight and deep.

Hello Gerard,

I think we are saying the same thing in general. It appears that all solids have a velocity envelope where they will not deform. Exceed that velocity and they can go to hell quickly. That velocity varies depending upon bullet construction. What is the make of bullet Number 3?

465H&H

The bullet in #3 is described here.

But we are not saying the same thing. In my book "going to hell quickly" means something like disaster striking. The GSC FNs above that struck up to 3000fps kept on doing what they were supposed to, no disasters. We regularly hear of successes with GSC FNs with 375s and 416s where the impact speed is far above 2400fps. Thus far we have heard of no horror stories.

The picture of your GS that hit the elephant leg and deformed into a mushroom shape looks similar to the Woodleigh in Pic #3. Both killed the elephant. You can't say one is a failure and the other was not a failure. That makes no sense at all.

465H&H

God only knows how Harry Manners and Wally Johnson managed to nail thousands of ele's in the 40's and 50's with off the shelf Winchester .375's and ammo. Just lucky I suppose, or blissfully ignorant.

quote:

God only knows how Harry Manners and Wally Johnson managed to nail thousands of ele's in the 40's and 50's with off the shelf Winchester .375's and ammo.

Probably in the same way as what millions of Americans drove hundreds of millions of miles in their Fords and Chevys in the 40's and 50's. Imagine all that pig iron clunking around.

Fortunately, technology has advanced so that we can drive hundreds of millions of miles in greater safety, with less breakdowns, more fuel efficiently, and faster now.

quote:

Originally posted by VVarrior:

quote:

God only knows how Harry Manners and Wally Johnson managed to nail thousands of ele's in the 40's and 50's with off the shelf Winchester .375's and ammo.

Probably in the same way as what millions of Americans drove hundreds of millions of miles in their Fords and Chevys in the 40's and 50's. Imagine all that pig iron clunking around.

Fortunately, technology has advanced so that we can drive hundreds of millions of miles in greater safety, with less breakdowns, more fuel efficiently, and faster now.

Interesting, although banal analogy.

Banal analogy to highlight a banal remark. Very appropriate.

This has turned into a very interesting thread, not just a big argument, but a good exchange of ideas and thoughts.

How slow can a .375 GSC 270gn or 300gn FN be fired and still work well in a .375 H&H?

Not silly slow, but will also be shooting a 350gn Woodleigh PP at 2350fps and wanting the GSC FN to shoot as close as possible to the same trajectory out to 150 yards or so?

Not to shoot Elephant or Buffalo at 150 yards of course.

But when using a .375 GSC FN in a dedicated light load for small PG/Whitetail meat load, how slow can they be loaded down to? Again not a DG load.

Allen

This is a 500gn Woodleigh fired from a 458 Lott(modest load)It was recovered from the broken back leg of a cow elephant,
What would be a modest load? 2100fps?

The 380gr GSC FN that broke the elephant femur was fired from a 416 Rigby at a mv of some 500fps more.

What do we know from these two incidents?

The Woodleigh broke the femur of a cow elephant and stopped.
The GSC FN broke the femur of a bull elephant that is twice the size and went another 36 inches.

The Woodleigh is a 500gr RN
The GSC FN is 120gr lighter at 380gr

The Woodleigh mv was about 2100fps
The GSC FN was 500fps faster at about 2600fps

The Woodleigh deformed in an uncontrolled manner, and split its jacket. The deformation left it dart stabilised but not shoulder stabilised, rendering further penetration a directional gamble.

Had the GSC FN struck at 2100fps, the deformation would have been slight. The GSC FN deformed as it should at 2600fps, it remained shoulder stabilised and became dart stabilised. This ensured further linear penetration.

There is little comparison in the deformation of Woodleigh and the GSC FN. The FN remained flat fronted, effectively sheilding the shaft from flow pressure and the Woodleigh deformed haphazardly. The FN can be relied on to continue to act as a solid should, because of the controlled deformation - it was designed to do so, instead of break up or shed chunks hapazardly.

In the past, Dan posted several pictures of GSC FNs that hit bone at similar speeds to the Woodleigh and higher. The deformation was nowhere near to that seen with the Woodleigh.

What would have been the result if the Woodleigh struck at 2600fps?

I don't think one can say that they are the same. They do not even look the same. The Woodleigh has a rounded mushroom shape and the FN is still flat fronted with a sharp edge that promotes shoulder stabilisation and will sustain cavitation to a lower speed than a rounded mushroom shape.

quote:

Posted 15 January 2010 19:12 Hide Post

Increase the speed to 2,400 and above and they all go to hell.

Not true at all.

I shot several 450 grain North Fork FN into my elephant in 2005 when it was down and none deformed. they all went 62 inches or more penetration. And left larger than caliber wound tracks through skull.

I have posted many pictures here of those bullets.

No deformation at 2550 fps and 1-12 twist.

Extra twist helps.

Andy

Andy,

With all do respect what I was saying was that all bullets have a threshold of velocity where they go to hell. For some it is 2,400 fps, some at a velocity above that and some a velocity below that level depending on how they are constructed. I should have been more clear.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
This is a 500gn Woodleigh fired from a 458 Lott(modest load)It was recovered from the broken back leg of a cow elephant,
What would be a modest load? 2100fps?

The 380gr GSC FN that broke the elephant femur was fired from a 416 Rigby at a mv of some 500fps more.

What do we know from these two incidents?

The Woodleigh broke the femur of a cow elephant and stopped.
The GSC FN broke the femur of a bull elephant that is twice the size and went another 36 inches.

The Woodleigh is a 500gr RN
The GSC FN is 120gr lighter at 380gr

The Woodleigh mv was about 2100fps
The GSC FN was 500fps faster at about 2600fps

The Woodleigh deformed in an uncontrolled manner, and split its jacket. The deformation left it dart stabilised but not shoulder stabilised, rendering further penetration a directional gamble.

Had the GSC FN struck at 2100fps, the deformation would have been slight. The GSC FN deformed as it should at 2600fps, it remained shoulder stabilised and became dart stabilised. This ensured further linear penetration.

There is little comparison in the deformation of Woodleigh and the GSC FN. The FN remained flat fronted, effectively sheilding the shaft from flow pressure and the Woodleigh deformed haphazardly. The FN can be relied on to continue to act as a solid should, because of the controlled deformation - it was designed to do so, instead of break up or shed chunks hapazardly.

In the past, Dan posted several pictures of GSC FNs that hit bone at similar speeds to the Woodleigh and higher. The deformation was nowhere near to that seen with the Woodleigh.

What would have been the result if the Woodleigh struck at 2600fps?

I don't think one can say that they are the same. They do not even look the same. The Woodleigh has a rounded mushroom shape and the FN is still flat fronted with a sharp edge that promotes shoulder stabilisation and will sustain cavitation to a lower speed than a rounded mushroom shape.

It isn't clear how far either bullet penetrated before they hit the femur. That can vary considerably depending on where the bullet entered the elephant. Especially, if the entry was on the elephants opposite side of the femur that was broken. A further three feet of penetration would not in all probability hit anything that would hasten the elephants death. In either case the elephant would have been stopped (they can't walk on three legs) and a follow up coup de Gras shot would be necessary to kill the elephant. Either would have eventually died but with out a follow up shot it would be a long and painful death. The results would be the same with either bullet.

I have a hard time believing that the bullet is a Woodleigh. Steel just doesn't bend like that. I have fired close to a hundred into elephants and buffalo and never seen that kind of action. If indeed it was a Woodleigh it obviously came from a defective batch as it certainly isn't normal. The RN you pictured is obviously not a steel jacketed bullet and is probably a Hornady with out the steel jacket. To compare that with a good steel jacketed bullet such as the Woodleigh would be as bad as comparing one of your bullets with a A2 hemispherical RN monolithic.

If your FN bullet is designed to expand as you have stated, how can you claim it is a solid? Obviously it is a very slow expanding bullet but it certainly doesn't fit the definition of a sold.

465H&H

Frankly, gentlemen, (and I really do yield to your expertise in facing mzou at close quarters) much of the argument sounds like what the medieval argument was about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. I repeat my question as an interested onlooker - Why do elephants appear to drop (in TV films) -on the spot- from a skull shot? Is it because the bullet gets to the brain (understandable) or is the elephant simply stunned -and then finished off off camera? I repeat my first post query - Is the elephant simply not that good in withstanding a bullet? (unlike a buff?) - or am I simply mixing up apples and oranges and making unfair comparisons?

quote:

Why do elephants appear to drop (in TV films) -on the spot-

Ele that drop to the shot and stay down are usually shot through the brain. This ALWAYS the goal with head shots on ele. If you see the back legs buckle first, it is usually the case.

Almost all PH's have hunters immediately put in "insurance shots" when ele goes down immediately and appears "brained".

They may not be actually shot through the brain in some cases but the bullet has passed close enough to the brain to cause major trauma to the brain.

465H&H

465H&H,

quote:

I have a hard time believing that the bullet is a Woodleigh.

It is a Woodleigh. The shape of the cannelure indicates that. The Hornady cannelure (when it is present) is different.

quote:

If indeed it was a Woodleigh it obviously came from a defective batch as it certainly isn't normal.

We cannot speak for any other manufacturer but we have not had defective batches of FN bullets since we started making them in '96. We await the first report of a GSC FN solid that failed. It is bound to happen but, so far, it is 13 years and counting.

quote:

If your FN bullet is designed to expand as you have stated, how can you claim it is a solid? Obviously it is a very slow expanding bullet but it certainly doesn't fit the definition of a sold.

I am at a loss to understand how you can fail to read over the obvious so per/consistently. Let me spell it out in simple terms:

1. All solids deform in the impact range from 1500fps to 3000fps.

2. GSC FN solids fit the definition of a solid, the same as other solids that bend, break or squirt their lead cores at lower speeds than where GSC FN solids expand in controlled fashion.

3. GSC FN bullets are designed to expand in a controlled manner, rather than break, shatter or bend in half. This expansion happens at elevated speeds where other solids break, shatter or bend in half.

3. In other words, at speeds where other solids will fail through bending, breaking or squirting, GSC FN solids will deform in a predesigned manner that preserves the integrity of shape that enables the GSC FN solid to continue acting as a solid should act.

So our information reads:

When stresses on the bullet become severe, GSC FN solid bullets expand in a predesigned manner so that the deformed bullet continues to perform as it should.

Information from some other manufacturers should read:

When stresses on the bullet become severe, (insert appropriate brand name) solid bullets break, bend, shed chunks or squirt their cores and the deformed bullet does not continue to perform as it should.

Gerard,

We are getting much closer to agreement. I was unaware that you have this statement available in your advertising. "When stresses on the bullet become severe, GSC FN solid bullets expand in a predesigned manner so that the deformed bullet continues to perform as it should."

I would suggest that it would be more informative for bullet manufacturers to give a recommended velocity range for all solids as well as for soft points. That range should be clearly marked on every box of bullets and the range should take in individual caliber and weight differences. It should state that bullets may deform at speeds above the recommended velocity range. You could then add your take on GS solids that are launched above those figures. I must say that I would use your bullets in my double rifles with confidence. Mainly because they would not exceed the velocity level where your bullets deform and I seldom use my doubles for anything but elephant. I prefer bullet weight over velocity.

By the way. I have used North Fork FN solids of 480 grain weight in my 465 Nitro double and they have stabilized well , grouped and regulated well as well as two killed elephant with deep straight line penetration. Make some 480 grain .468 diameter bullets and I will shoot a few elephants with them next November.

Have a great day!

465H&H

465H&H, Gerard,

Perhaps I can act as a translater, without taking sides or advocating for one or the other, between two English speakers who are talking past each other, or seem to be.

Gerard notes that all solid bullets change shape at even low impact velocities.

As velocities increase, Gerard has designed his bullets to yield progressively in a manner which does not detract from the mission of a solid bullet, deep, straight line penetration.

Gerard notes that other solid bullet makes can catastrophically fail in manners which detract from a solid bullet's mission. Such failures as bending, breaking, squiting their cores reduce or end predictable straight line penetration while GS Custom's designed in yeild does not.

Gerard does not advocate using his bullets only at speeds which would ensure an absence of any deformation and is confident that his bullets continue to penetrate deep and straight despite designed yeild brought about through increased velocity or impact with hard targets like elephant leg bones and his bullets' track record supports his conclusion.

465H&H want to use bullets that do not deform and has used Woodleighs without deformation at speeds in the 2100-2250fps. He has used North Forks at about 2100 without deformation and looks forward to using GS Customs at similar speeds without deformation.

465H&H, an important point is that Gerard doesn't believe that his bullets won't deform at, say 2100fps, but he doesn't think the deformation his bullets might experience at that speed, and much faster, is relevant.

Now, leaving the translator role, which I hope has been helpful, my experience with Woodleighs reveals much deformation that Gerard would probably consider catastrophic. Bending, splitting, flattening (always some core squirting, but ussually only to the extent of leaving a small lead "tit" extruded through the hole in the steel jacket at the base of the bullet.) All .458", 500gr Woodleighs. All at ~2145fps mv. I believe from our other correspondence that my bend, split, flattened collection of Woodleighs is larger than 465H&H's, despite his greater sample. But one thing is for sure, all of the bullets were recovered from dead elephants and the great majority were the bullets that killed the elephant with a brain shot. All that tumbling, bending, splitting, squirting when beyond the mere tit occurred beyond the brain of the elephant, past when the bullet has done what a solid is designed to do, provide deep, straight penetration. There was one exception, and that was a solid into a tusk socket and the tusk in it. This bullet was bent and split and flattened. It did not tumble, but was on its way trying to. See below for a similar experience with a North Fork.

I have no experience with Gerard's bullets but do with North Forks. Shooting .458" 450gr NF's at 2220fps I can tell you that some will be recovered without any visible deformation, like many Woodleighs. But some will have varying degrees of nose deformation, so only one approaching the high speed deformation shown in Gerard's photos. One with a divot on one side of the nose veered slightly in its ~48" of travel in the elephant. One was a squashed banana that penetrated half way through a tusk socket and the tusk in it.

Overall, two things stands clear, a greater proportion of the Woodleighs look like hell and, except for the NF from the tusk, all of the copper FN's penetrated further than any Woodleigh.

I think there is much merit in Gerard's asgument that programmed, designed in yield is the better solution to deformation that will happen at high speed, but also at low speed, Producing predicatable results with programmed, designed in yield.

JPK