On a brain shot on Elephant in a .375 H&H would there be any terminal difference's
between a 270/300 gn FN Mono bullet vs a Woodleigh 350 gn FMJ, if they both hit the brain?

From what I've read they both should have enough penetration.

Then, excluding any difference's in penetration.

Would the FN be more effective than the FMJ since the FN should create a larger wound channel?

But since it's a brain shot, would the slightly larger wound channel make a difference? If so
where would the difference show up?

The FN vs RN FMJ has been gone over a lot. I just was wondering under this specific shot if it would
make a difference in real world conditions.

So in other words would a brain shot on Elephant with a .375 H&H would have the same results regardless if the bullet was a FN or RN FMJ?

Allen

It's more a case of deformation and break up.

FMJs can and do deform and/or break up whereas a mono solid will almost always stay true.

I'd highly recommend the GS Custom FNMS as the best on the market...... I love 'em to bits!

I have shot a bunch of elephants with head shots using RN solid Woodleigh bullets and have never had any problems with bullets breaking up, not penetrating straight or not penetrating sufficiently. Saying that, either a FN solid or a Woodleigh RN solid will work well. On a charge situation, I would much rather have the extra bullet weight of the 350 grain Woodleigh over any 300 grain bullet. The 375 is marginal on it's ability to turn an elephant with a brain shot that misses the brain or hits a non-vital portion of the brain. The 350 may just give you a little edge over the 300's. If you decide on a FN solid whether mono-metal or conventional be sure that they will feed in your rifle. Many times they won't where most rifles are adjusted at the factory to feed RN solids.


465H&H

quote:

On a brain shot on Elephant in a .375 H&H would there be any terminal difference's
between a 270/300 gn FN Mono bullet vs a Woodleigh 350 gn FMJ, if they both hit the brain?

Not if they both pass through the brain. Dead is dead.

Any .375 non-expanding bullet that actully passes through the brain is going to produce the exact same result. The trick is getting them to pass through the brain.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Not if they both pass through the brain. Dead is dead.

Any .375 non-expanding bullet that actully passes through the brain is going to produce the exact same result. The trick is getting them to pass through the brain.

A good and accurate answer.

FWIW, I stole this pic from 500Nitro and hope he won't mind my posting it. ( Iassume he's in the States just now)

The shattered bullet is a good example of a FMJ failure. This one failed to penetrate the skull of an Elephant and broke up instead:

The question wasn't about TBS solids but Woodleigh solids.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
[QUOTE]On a brain shot on Elephant in a .375 H&H would there be any terminal difference's
between a 270/300 gn FN Mono bullet vs a Woodleigh 350 gn FMJ, if they both hit the brain?

Not if they both pass through the brain. Dead is dead. (/QUOTE)



I have shot elephant where the bullet passed through the brain (usually the outer margins of the brain) and they weren't killed. Don't count on the above statement.

465H&H

465... the pic was to illustrate how a FMJ bullet is more likely to fail than an MS, not to point out a fault in any particular make, which is why I didn't identify the make.

However, if someone is determined to use a FMJ bullet, I'd say the Woodleigh is the best choice by a country mile.

I'd still prefer a GS Custom FNMS if I had the choice though.

Allen,

You might want to check out this thread on the Big Bore Forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/2861098911
Whether you agree or disagree that testing material has any relationship to actual hunting conditions...the straight line penetration of the FN monometals vis-a-vis the traditional RN FMJ is definately demonstrated.

Good luck in your hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
465... the pic was to illustrate how a FMJ bullet is more likely to fail than an MS, not to point out a fault in any particular make, which is why I didn't identify the make.

However, if someone is determined to use a FMJ bullet, I'd say the Woodleigh is the best choice by a country mile.

I'd still prefer a GS Custom FNMS if I had the choice though.

Here is a FN mono-metal solid that bent in half on an elephant head. So now are we even? That is not to say that all FN mono-metal solids will fail, just to show that they can fail also. I have noticed that the GS FN solids tend to have more nose distortion than North Forks and NF would be my preferred choice when I use a FN mono-metal solid.

Another possible choice would be the new Hornady DGS solid. I have had extremely good results with it in the 458 Win, but be sure it will feed 100% of the time in your rifle.

Steve, you need to try some of the North Fork solids but I imagine they may be hard to come by in SA. Let me know and I will bring you a box on my next trip through there.

465H&H

I support Steve on the GS Custom bullets, I like the meplat on a bullet. I have found better straight line penetration as a rule.
I have not had any Woodley or North Fork experience so do not feel qualified to comment.

Having said that, a well placed shot is a well placed shot, and will drop your elly.
I refer to the thousands of elephant that were shot with 6.5 and 7mm rifles by the professional ivory hunters of yesteryear.

Steve, I am at home in soggy Durban.

465,

Very unusual picture there. I've seen a lot of FMJs of carious brands fail like that but not monos. I'll be interested to read Gerard's opinions on that one!

You're right, I've never used Northforks but would be very interested to try some. Thanks for the offer!

500,

Sorry mate, if I'd known you were home, I'd have waited for you to post your pic!

At least you've got some rain..... we haven't seen any for a couple of weeks now!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
[QUOTE]On a brain shot on Elephant in a .375 H&H would there be any terminal difference's
between a 270/300 gn FN Mono bullet vs a Woodleigh 350 gn FMJ, if they both hit the brain?

Not if they both pass through the brain. Dead is dead. (/QUOTE)



I have shot elephant where the bullet passed through the brain (usually the outer margins of the brain) and they weren't killed. Don't count on the above statement.

465H&H

465H&H

This is not the first time I have read of brain shots failing to kill an elephant. I would like to know how you confirmed that the bullet passed through the outer portion of the brain. Did you open the skull, and which part of the brain was hit?

Shikari,

I also believe Ganyana has posted some pics somewhere and has seen some FN monos fail but I don't remember where I saw it.

JBrown,

I didn't open the skuls of the elephants in question so I can not say how much tissue damage occured. I will take the time to open the next one that it happens on and I will photograph the damage. I have had quite a few go down on head shots that from the entrance hole indicated that they should have penetrated the brain. On two cases we went back to the carcass and examined the now cleaned skull and the entrance and exit holes showed that the brain would have had to have been impacted. In both cases it appeared that the bullet went through the outer margins of the brain (temporal and occipital areas)but missed the rear portion of the brain. Ganyana has seen the same on elephants whose skulls were sectioned.

465H&H

Revisiting this thread will refresh memories.

quote:

I'll be interested to read Gerard's opinions on that one!

There is lots of evidence to explain what happened. We know that smaller meplats set back more than large meplats. When the set back turns the following section of the nose into an ogived (curved) shape, it tends to allow the bullet to start rotating about its CG. If the size of the meplat is not sufficient to allow shoulder stabilisation forces strong enough to resist the rotation, and the bullet is not even close to being dart stabilised, it keeps on rotating. Bullets bend when they tumble in target.

Had the bullet deformed more (and more quickly), the expanded meplat would shield the following body from drag, the bullet is closer to being dart stabilised (or is dart stabilised) and is heavily shoulder stabilised. It tries to keep going in a straight line. Less drag gives deeper penetration. Tumbling creates massive drag and reduces penetration.

From Left to right (courtesy of Andy):

450gr .458 from stop box at 2450fps, 450gr .458 from stop box at 2000fps, 450gr .458 unfired

Left bullet from an elephant (courtesy of 500Nitro), right is unfired. Note the flaring of the meplat that causes the shielding of the afterbody from drag.


Pictures of failed FN monos like the GSC and Northfork designs would be interesting to see. This is not a failure, it has done exactly what it was designed to do and it finished the job that the hunter started.


A flat nosed bullet that is created by cutting a flat on an otherwise round nose is not the same, so such pictures would not be useful, we have lots of them.

I cannot post pics but will email some to 465 to post of a couple of .375 mono's that have snapped in half at the cannelure. They were PMP.

The early Barnes solids tended to mushroom nicely, their later ones bent - I will send 465 the pis to post.

I like their current banded solids and load them for mates in several calibers.

All solids have some 'failure point'. A velocity at which they will come appart or flatten out. Few people realise that a tusk base on a big bull will stop a 7.62 NATO ball with almost as little effort as good steel armour plate. The Zygomatic arch isn't a whole lot softer! (I also have some spectacular pictures of TB 'solids' failing, not to mention the older German FMJ's in 404 etc.

I have never had the oportunity to try GS custom and nobody in Zim has ever bought me any to reload for them, so cannot comment. At 378 Weatherby velocities, bullet failure with either Barnes or Woodleigh 300grn bullets is pretty common. The heavier 350grn (offered by both companies) is a far better choice.

Cynically I wonder how long it will take before complaints start comming in from Americans on the .375 Ruger and the Europeans on the .375 Blaser...In both the velocity is too high with 300grn bullets for elephant

quote:

I didn't open the skuls of the elephants in question so I can not say how much tissue damage occured. I will take the time to open the next one that it happens on and I will photograph the damage. I have had quite a few go down on head shots that from the entrance hole indicated that they should have penetrated the brain. On two cases we went back to the carcass and examined the now cleaned skull and the entrance and exit holes showed that the brain would have had to have been impacted. In both cases it appeared that the bullet went through the outer margins of the brain (temporal and occipital areas)but missed the rear portion of the brain.

465,
With all due respect...I would make sure I opened the brain cavity and indeed saw the bullet path through brain matter before stating that you have shot ele through the brain and they have not died. Especially when stating specific aspects of neuroanatomy.

But also in my defense...I just stated that if 2 .375 cal non-expanding bullets passed through the brain in the same path...they would have the same result...irregardless of velocity and weight. NOT meaning velocity and weight would not help them get there which it would along with bullet design and construction.

I agree with your caution and wouldn't have made the statement unless I was sure that the bullet passed through those portions of the brain. I have advanced degrees in zoology and wildlife biology and have performed necropsies on hundreds of animals. If you know anatomy and see entrance and exit wounds in the skull you can make educated estimates of the bullets path and the organs that they passed through. But as I said, I will open the skull on the next one to confirm results and to document the amount and extent of tissue damage. Cheers!

465H&H

Ganyana asked me to post the following pictures of recovered bullets. Hopefully, I got the correct names on the correct bullets.


PMP 375


PMP 375


Barnes etc.


Barnes


Early North Fork


Hornady from 460 Weatherby

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Revisiting this thread will refresh memories.

quote:

I'll be interested to read Gerard's opinions on that one!

There is lots of evidence to explain what happened. We know that smaller meplats set back more than large meplats. When the set back turns the following section of the nose into an ogived (curved) shape, it tends to allow the bullet to start rotating about its CG. If the size of the meplat is not sufficient to allow shoulder stabilisation forces strong enough to resist the rotation, and the bullet is not even close to being dart stabilised, it keeps on rotating. Bullets bend when they tumble in target.

Had the bullet deformed more (and more quickly), the expanded meplat would shield the following body from drag, the bullet is closer to being dart stabilised (or is dart stabilised) and is heavily shoulder stabilised. It tries to keep going in a straight line. Less drag gives deeper penetration. Tumbling creates massive drag and reduces penetration.

From Left to right (courtesy of Andy):

500gr .470 from Elephant, 540gr .510 from elephant, unfired .510, 450gr .458 from stop box at 2450fps, 450gr .458 from stop box at 2000fps, 450gr .458 unfired

Left bullet from an elephant (courtesy of 500Nitro), right is unfired. Note the flaring of the meplat that causes the shielding of the afterbody from drag.


Pictures of failed FN monos like the GSC and Northfork designs would be interesting to see. This is not a failure, it has done exactly what it was designed to do and it finished the job that the hunter started.


A flat nosed bullet that is created by cutting a flat on an otherwise round nose is not the same, so such pictures would not be useful, we have lots of them.

Gerard may be correct on his analysis but another reason may be due to the cannalure cut in thosse bullets that bent in the middle. If you notive the Barnes that brobe in half, broke right at the cannalure and the other bullets that bent appear to also bend at the cannalure.

The above pictures of bent PMP 375 bullets are of the same basic design as North Forks and GS FN solids.

465H&H
465H&H

We have used the Woodleigh in .416 and Safari Select in .375 on elephants. Both did well but prefer thr Safari select. Penatration is excellent with no deformation.

The Safari Select has a Tungsten Carbide insert and will not come out and bullet has never broken up. These are the old Speer Nitrex now made by Terry Thompson (retired from Speer)in Lewiston Idaho.

465H&H

Don't know what it's of but there ain't a North Fork anywhere in the last pics you posted.

Thanks 465

Last Photo is Federal TB from ele tusk

previous one is a Horniday from ele tusk

I have never shot NF into an ele or had a client or aq candidate on the exam use one

465H&H,
In the series of pictures from Ganyana there are no Northfork bullets. The one labeled "Early Northfork" is something else. The first set of pictures show two Bridger 9.3 brass solids , not PMP 375.

quote:

If you notive the Barnes that brobe in half, broke right at the cannalure and the other bullets that bent appear to also bend at the cannalure.

The broken bullet is the PMP, the Barnes round noses are the bent ones. The cannelure is not a causative factor in the bending of the bullet. Round nosed solids that tumble will often bend unrelated to where the cannelure is placed. The cannelure is a causative factor in the breaking of the PMP solid. The cannelure is machined with sharp corners in the bottom of the cannelure that sets up stress risers and promotes failure at that point.

quote:

The above pictures of bent PMP 375 bullets are of the same basic design as North Forks and GS FN solids.

The Bridgers in the first set are the closest to the GSC and Northfork designs but differ in two important ways. The ratio of meplat and nose length to caliber is different and there is no way that GSC would go to a 300gr solid for a 9.3. It is too long.

Despite the length, the Bridger acted the way it should. The meplat set back and expanded, giving good shoulder stabilisation and approaching dart stabilisation. The speed would have been mild and the bullet may have yawed a little but essentially tracked straight. The off centre nose usually does not influence the straightness of the wound channel as long as the afterbody is reasonably shielded from flow pressure by the expanded meplat.

Gerard,

If you will notice all of the bullets that have cannalures and bent, bend at the cannalure, even though the cannalures are located in different positions on the bullet. Coincidence?

Also when I posted the pics for Ganyana, I named them as he listed them.

465H&H

quote:

If you will notice all of the bullets that have cannalures and bent, bend at the cannalure, even though the cannalures are located in different positions on the bullet. Coincidence?

The cannelure in those bullets probably serves as what is known as a "stess-riser".

465H&H,
I would suggest that you check with Ganyana to modify the captions to read:

Bridger 9.3 Brass Solids
PMP .375 300gr Brass Solid
Assorted Solids
Barnes .375 300gr Brass Solids
Hornady Solid
Federal TB Solid

As it stands, anyone not familiar with the bullets may draw the wrong conclusions.

If Ganyana sends me an updated list I will change the titles.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

If you will notice all of the bullets that have cannalures and bent, bend at the cannalure, even though the cannalures are located in different positions on the bullet. Coincidence?

The cannelure in those bullets probably serves as what is known as a "stess-riser".

Cannelures are negative profile and would be expected to concentrate stress. The driving bands on bullets such as NF's are positive profile and do not concentrate stress. They reduce friction an serve as a cannelure for crimping.

Just to add my experience, though limited.

One, no brass bullet, whether designed like a GSC or NF, will act the same. As Gerard pointed out, the deformation of the nose is critical, and brass doesn't do that. From what I know, that is why GSC chose the pure copper they use. The flattening, flairing and enlarging of the meplat is important in straight line penetration. Gerard described it all in his first post.

We all know round nose bullets tumble, and so bend, regardless of any groove or cannelure. Yes, I would wager the thinner area has less strength and so promotes that weakspot to go first, but even if it was straight, it would bend or break non-the-less. The stress risers do offer a good start for this, but they do not exist on GSC or NF. I have not seen a GSC fail to date, nor do I see anyone with pictures of such, so I will continue to shoot them. I cannot say that much for Barnes or PMP, or any other FMJ.

In Fact, Randy Garrett (Garrett Cartridges) use to use the speer AGS tungsten solid in his ammo, and had to change because he seen failure with them...though not too sevear, they jacket would seperate. And the core was likely to tumble. He can even attest to the TBSH's he's using now to fail at high speeds, but he keeps them well below that speed in his .45-70 loads.

What you need is a controled effect. Yes, ever bullet will give eventually, it's just a matter of how! When it is predicted, controled and planned, you have a success! I believe this is what is so great about the NF's and GSC bullets. In this case, this effect even helps them, making a better bullet upon impact then can be made to shoot from a rifle (and fly straight). Just be sure to use the right bullet for your twist...something so many people take for granted...just to mention it. This was seen in Barnes testing of their new 350 .375 FN...not good, and just be sure you spin the heck out of it!

-E458

P.S. Just because two bullets look somewhat alike, or of the same basic design, does not mean a thing. There are so many little differences most people don't even see. One being the material; brass sucks!

I had no idea anyone was still producing these. I could not google a web page. How would you contact this gentlemn and is there any info available?

quote:

Originally posted by Elton:
We have used the Woodleigh in .416 and Safari Select in .375 on elephants. Both did well but prefer thr Safari select. Penatration is excellent with no deformation.

The Safari Select has a Tungsten Carbide insert and will not come out and bullet has never broken up. These are the old Speer Nitrex now made by Terry Thompson (retired from Speer)in Lewiston Idaho.

The posts I have read on this site is why any new hunter to Africa should read and be educated and have some basis for how his mind is made up about how to go with rifles.(THe old definition of an "expert" is that he has been there. This site proves the truth of that) (My user name says my preference and I never hunted elephant (I went for buff on my one time trip) It was just interssting to read. I do wish that more posters would report on exactly what is the effect of slamming a big bullet into the skull of an elephant - I, like many Americans have watched TV films where the elephant collapses on the spot -on film- Does it really happen that way? Frankly, it gives me the impression that the elephant does does not take a bullet too well. (I hasten to say that if I was there -and facing 8 tons coming at me ,I would want him to drop upon being hit with a .22)

quote:

One, no brass bullet, whether designed like a GSC or NF, will act the same. As Gerard pointed out, the deformation of the nose is critical, and brass doesn't do that. From what I know, that is why GSC chose the pure copper they use. The flattening, flairing and enlarging of the meplat is important in straight line penetration. Gerard described it all in his first post.

E458,
If a bullet is designed to "flatten, flair and enlarge" then by definition is an expanding bullet and not a solid. According to Gerard this designed expanding is done to improve straight line penetration just like a soft point does. To compare this bullet with the North Fork is comparing apples to oranges as the NF is designed not to expand. The GS is closer to the NF Cup point in performance.

465H&H

465H&H, The bullets are slightly different, but the matterial is the same, so regardless of the assumed design, they will both compress similarly. Now the GS bullets are not designed to expand, and you can see that from the pictures, they are designed to deal with the velocity appropriately. All bullets yield, but it's better to control that yield (as much as can be) in order to better performance, rather then give it up. It's not a very significant expansion, but it deals with the differences in velocity quite nicely. If you shoot a bullet fast, you want it to use that energy, right? And at range, or lesser cartridge, you want it to use all it's energy to penetrate, straight line, correct? So this controled yield is as good as a bullet gets to all around performance under any circumstance. The GSC FN's record proves that...so I guess I am agreeing with your second sentance, but it's not really any different then the NF's. Not apples to oranges, but there are different apples! I wouldn't say they are like the cup point at all, since the penetrate much deeper. In fact, they go as deep as any other bullet, even more so most of the time, all while doing more damage, and doing it in a straight line. Can't say that about any of that bent brass scrap above, or cup point. About as good as it gets!

From what I have seen as long as the GS FN solid velocity does not exceeed some figure and I'm guessing it is around 2,300 fps it acts like an almost non deforming solid but at higher velocities (impact speeds) it begins to mushroom and then acts as a strongly constructed soft point. At the speeds I am comfortable with i.e. 2,150 to 2,300 fps they all work well and that includes Woodleigh, Hornady DGS, North Fork FN, GS and Bridger.
Increase the speed to 2,400 and above and they all go to hell.

465H&H

I don't think so Tim...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
From what I have seen as long as the GS FN solid velocity does not exceeed some figure and I'm guessing it is around 2,300 fps it acts like an almost non deforming solid but at higher velocities (impact speeds) it begins to mushroom and then acts as a strongly constructed soft point. At the speeds I am comfortable with i.e. 2,150 to 2,300 fps they all work well and that includes Woodleigh, Hornady DGS, North Fork FN, GS and Bridger.
Increase the speed to 2,400 and above and they all go to hell.

465H&H

.465,
Why did you NOT post that in my defense in the other thread where we were talking about too much velocity could be a bad thing when shooting ele with brain shots with solids???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
From what I have seen as long as the GS FN solid velocity does not exceeed some figure and I'm guessing it is around 2,300 fps it acts like an almost non deforming solid but at higher velocities (impact speeds) it begins to mushroom and then acts as a strongly constructed soft point. At the speeds I am comfortable with i.e. 2,150 to 2,300 fps they all work well and that includes Woodleigh, Hornady DGS, North Fork FN, GS and Bridger.
Increase the speed to 2,400 and above and they all go to hell.

465H&H

.465,
Why did you NOT post that in my defense in the other thread where we were talking about too much velocity could be a bad thing when shooting ele with brain shots with solids???

Ledvm,
I'm now confused on which post is which. I guess I didn't support you because I didn't think it necessary since you did a good job of laying the position out. Does my plagerizing you on this gain me your forgiveness?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
From what I have seen as long as the GS FN solid velocity does not exceeed some figure and I'm guessing it is around 2,300 fps it acts like an almost non deforming solid but at higher velocities (impact speeds) it begins to mushroom and then acts as a strongly constructed soft point.

Corresponds good with my experience. 800 grs GS FNs in my 577 Tyrannosaur penetrates deeper at 2250-2300 f/s than at 2500 f/s. Reason is that at 2500 f/s they expand somewhat which lowers penetration. At the lower speed they are almost not deformed at all, and penetration is immense..

quote:

Ledvm,
I'm now confused on which post is which. I guess I didn't support you because I didn't think it necessary since you did a good job of laying the position out. Does my plagerizing you on this gain me your forgiveness?

I think it was an argument on Big Bore about if one could have "too much" velocity shooting solids. My position was yes...you potentially can. You were supportive. Just did say it as explicitly as above.