The film was a lot better than I expected. The croc "hunt" was just disgusting. I don't understand the young elephant either.

We are all debating the merits or lack thereof of a movie that was shown at all of the major movie festivals. Meanwhile I hate to say it but I must point it out...the DSC Foundation put out an opinion piece of the movie on Facebook and it got 23 Likes and 47 Shares. We spend a few bucks on FB advertising and get dozens or hundreds. What the hell is going on?

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
We are all debating the merits or lack thereof of a movie that was shown at all of the major movie festivals. Meanwhile I hate to say it but I must point it out...the DSC Foundation put out an opinion piece of the movie on Facebook and it got 23 Likes and 47 Shares. We can spend a few bucks on FB advertising and get dozens or hundreds. What the hell is going on?

Shadow banning...

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
We are all debating the merits or lack thereof of a movie that was shown at all of the major movie festivals. Meanwhile I hate to say it but I must point it out...the DSC Foundation put out an opinion piece of the movie on Facebook and it got 23 Likes and 47 Shares. We can spend a few bucks on FB advertising and get dozens or hundreds. What the hell is going on?

Shadow banning...

Conspiracy theory. The DSC Foundation has 2576 followers and an average of 10 people or less liking posts over time. Not exactly a big social media influence.

I don’t say it with glee as I love the DSC.

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
We are all debating the merits or lack thereof of a movie that was shown at all of the major movie festivals. Meanwhile I hate to say it but I must point it out...the DSC Foundation put out an opinion piece of the movie on Facebook and it got 23 Likes and 47 Shares. We can spend a few bucks on FB advertising and get dozens or hundreds. What the hell is going on?

Shadow banning...

Conspiracy theory. If I was tracking my ad spend I would have cancelled it ASAP

The same people you spend your ad money on are happy to BS the numbers while spending your dough. Not provable, but don’t forget who holds the keys to the social media roller coaster.

On the other hand, maybe Facebook isn’t the first place DSC members care about hearing from their org. Dunno, don’t Facebook.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
We are all debating the merits or lack thereof of a movie that was shown at all of the major movie festivals. Meanwhile I hate to say it but I must point it out...the DSC Foundation put out an opinion piece of the movie on Facebook and it got 23 Likes and 47 Shares. We can spend a few bucks on FB advertising and get dozens or hundreds. What the hell is going on?

Shadow banning...

Conspiracy theory. If I was tracking my ad spend I would have cancelled it ASAP

The same people you spend your ad money on are happy to BS the numbers while spending your dough. Not provable, but don’t forget who holds the keys to the social media roller coaster.

On the other hand, maybe Facebook isn’t the first place DSC members care about hearing from their org. Dunno, don’t Facebook.

It’s not about DSC members - they are the choir. FB is to reach out to the rest and it ain’t working in this situation.

I watched it last night. Like many, I was absolutely disgusted at the elephant and croc scenes. There is no excuse for not immediately finishing that elephant. Anyone who participates in the shooting of ANY animal such as the crocodile scene should be condemned by all ethical hunters. I was totally disgusted with that, even more than poorly dispatching a young elephant. I thought the Zim anti-poaching scenes were well done. Would have liked to see more focus on that.

Overall, I thought the movie was OK, though I think they could have done a much better job of distinguishing between hunting and poaching. It wasn't as good as I'd hoped but better than I expected.

Final thoughts, I doubt I'd ever hunt with ARU and definitely not with Mabula Pro. And I plan to politely and respectfully tell both operations that, and why, next week in Las Vegas.

I finally watched it today and felt the filmmakers did a great job of presenting a balanced final product.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The croc in a stock tank and the juvenile elephant didn’t do it for me.

+1

The ele was PAC or ration I believe but still.

And they didn’t finish it properly either.

The guy who shot the croc in the stock pond...I would not walk across the street to piss on if he were on fire.

+1 I don`t believe we have agreed more on any subject. People like these (croc shooter) are one of the main reasons the anti-crowd are kicking us in the balls! WWhen they put "hunters" like that in our crowd, we are doomed. I believe we should condemn actions like that It has nothing to do with hunting. Executing farm bred crocs in the local pond is never hunting.

A carefully worded statement should be issued by the major hunting groups.

quote:

Originally posted by Svinejakt:

+1 I don`t believe we have agreed more on any subject. People like these (croc shooter) are one of the main reasons the anti-crowd are kicking us in the balls! WWhen they put "hunters" like that in our crowd, we are doomed. I believe we should condemn actions like that It has nothing to do with hunting. Executing farm bred crocs in the local pond is never hunting.

Hold on, we have folks that post on this site who believe we need to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the croc hunter and support his right to shoot "crocs in a barrel" so to speak while enjoying a brewsky or two if that is what he chooses to do and call it hunting. To impose your sense of hunting ethics on him and suggest his actions were reprehensible, well, you are being an elitist. Don't you know standing up for hunting ethics and throwing the likes of the croc shooter off the hunting boat will be downfall of hunting.



[. . . your comments are spot on by the way. +1]

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Svinejakt:

+1 I don`t believe we have agreed more on any subject. People like these (croc shooter) are one of the main reasons the anti-crowd are kicking us in the balls! WWhen they put "hunters" like that in our crowd, we are doomed. I believe we should condemn actions like that It has nothing to do with hunting. Executing farm bred crocs in the local pond is never hunting.

Hold on, we have folks that post on this site who believe we need to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the croc hunter and support his right to shoot "crocs in a barrel" so to speak while enjoying a brewsky or two if that is what he chooses to do and call it hunting. To impose your sense of hunting ethics on him and suggest his actions were reprehensible, well, you are being an elitist. Don't you know standing up for hunting ethics and throwing the likes of the croc shooter off the hunting boat will be downfall of hunting.



[. . . your comments are spot on by the way. +1]

+2

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Svinejakt:

+1 I don`t believe we have agreed more on any subject. People like these (croc shooter) are one of the main reasons the anti-crowd are kicking us in the balls! WWhen they put "hunters" like that in our crowd, we are doomed. I believe we should condemn actions like that It has nothing to do with hunting. Executing farm bred crocs in the local pond is never hunting.

Hold on, we have folks that post on this site who believe we need to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the croc hunter and support his right to shoot "crocs in a barrel" so to speak while enjoying a brewsky or two if that is what he chooses to do and call it hunting. To impose your sense of hunting ethics on him and suggest his actions were reprehensible, well, you are being an elitist. Don't you know standing up for hunting ethics and throwing the likes of the croc shooter off the hunting boat will be downfall of hunting.



[. . . your comments are spot on by the way. +1]

I agree with you.

The problem with all of this high fence hunting or whatever one wants to call it is that there are executions such are the croc on the film. I don't see how anyone can think this is acceptable. On the other hand, there are places that may be 40 miles across with no internal fences. Most of the animals were born inside the fence and run totally wild. These two are in no way comparable. Yet some lump them together. Personally, I have no problem with the latter. I have a major problem with the former.

It is interesting that everyone knows who Phillip Glass is but I have no idea who the guy is who shot the croc.

For whatever it is worth, I sent the filmmakers a message thanking them for making the movie and keeping an open mind. I also told them how many were bothered by the croc and the elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

The problem with all of this high fence hunting or whatever one wants to call it is that there are executions such are the croc on the film. I don't see how anyone can think this is acceptable. On the other hand, there are places that may be 40 miles across with no internal fences. Most of the animals were born inside the fence and run totally wild. These two are in no way comparable. Yet some lump them together. Personally, I have no problem with the latter. I have a major problem with the former.

I believe that many if not most of those that hunt that lump the two scenarios you are describing together understand the very real difference that exists, they just choose to ignore the difference because it is at odds with the narrative that they want to spin. They would like to spin the thin thread that if you condemn the put and take hunt in a 100 acre fenced pen, that you are effectively condemning a hunt on the million acre Bubye or Save. It ignores the fact that the vast majority of the public is not anti-hunting and are completely capable of understanding the difference in the two scenarios. Which is why when we defend the 100 acre put and take hunt we do ourselves more harm than good.

The only thing that bothered me about the croc shoot was the gem of a guy behind the gun. If the events had unfolded differently with a more seasoned, dare I say respectful hunter, I don't believe too many would have really had a problem with the put and take shoot. But it turned into a circus. I have to say I've seen the same type of behaviour in open country hunting as well. So the fact is was a put and take shoot had nothing to do with the circus vibe that it turned into.

The ele hunt was a dismal waste and poorly executed. The ele was too small for a self-use meat hunt and the animal should have been brained within 30 seconds of hitting the ground. Bad deal all around but should not reflect poorly on the hunter. He did what he was instructed to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
The only thing that bothered me about the croc shoot was the gem of a guy behind the gun. If the events had unfolded differently with a more seasoned, dare I say respectful hunter, I don't believe too many would have really had a problem with the put and take shoot. But it turned into a circus. I have to say I've seen the same type of behaviour in open country hunting as well. So the fact is was a put and take shoot had nothing to do with the circus vibe that it turned into.

The ele hunt was a dismal waste and poorly executed. The ele was too small for a self-use meat hunt and the animal should have been brained within 30 seconds of hitting the ground. Bad deal all around but should not reflect poorly on the hunter. He did what he was instructed to do.

The "gentleman" behind the gun certainly made the situation a hell of a lot worse than it would have been. The first warning was him shooting at the croc offhand. That was bad enough. It was downhill from there.

On the elephant, sure it could have been bigger. That was not the worst part to me. After they shot it, they did not exactly rush up to it. When they got up to it, they took their time before administering a finishing shot.

I think it is a fair statement that both entities involved have lost a lot of potential clients over this film. I can't say that I disagree.

I agree. We talk argue a lot about ethics but what I see missing in many clients is respect and a modicum of class. Sure there are one or two that take respect and class to comical levels, but respect would go a long way towards winning the all important PR campaign that some are fixated on.

From the perspective of the Conservancy members, the ele was a disappointment as it should have been. With limited self-use permits, a small animal hurts the community. A perspective the PH should have held above dropping an animal for bucks. Everyone who works within a Conservancy understands this or should understand this.

A good example of respect and class was the ele client. He was thoughtful, emotional, respectful, and prepared.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Svinejakt:

+1 I don`t believe we have agreed more on any subject. People like these (croc shooter) are one of the main reasons the anti-crowd are kicking us in the balls! WWhen they put "hunters" like that in our crowd, we are doomed. I believe we should condemn actions like that It has nothing to do with hunting. Executing farm bred crocs in the local pond is never hunting.

Hold on, we have folks that post on this site who believe we need to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the croc hunter and support his right to shoot "crocs in a barrel" so to speak while enjoying a brewsky or two if that is what he chooses to do and call it hunting. To impose your sense of hunting ethics on him and suggest his actions were reprehensible, well, you are being an elitist. Don't you know standing up for hunting ethics and throwing the likes of the croc shooter off the hunting boat will be downfall of hunting.



[. . . your comments are spot on by the way. +1]

There is a difference between the "croc shooter" and someone whom might do a captive-bred lion in a place like the one Aaron Neilson advocates along with people who hunt corn-feeders in Texas.

It is a very fine line to walk. And we can really afford to loose people who contribute money to orgs like NRA & DSC.

quote:

The problem with all of this high fence hunting or whatever one wants to call it is that there are executions such are the croc on the film. I don't see how anyone can think this is acceptable.

I would like to drill down on something for a moment while everyone is in a talkative mood.

What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?

I will start.

In regards to this pen raised croc...the method in which it was killed is likely just as or more humane as its pen-mates who were just harvested (for lack of a better word) for their hides as farm animals.

The problem I have with it has nothing to do with in-humane killing. I have inspected horse slaughter plants for humaneness and studied humane euthanasia since 1989. In the context of the above...the croc killing was not less humane than the accepted.

The problem I have with it is that it is even called hunting. It should never be lumped with hunting. It should not be regulated by USF&WS. That croc was a farm animal...harvested for human use just as a steer.

Somehow...hunters have to find a way to distance themselves from the harvesting of farm animals and distinguish between the 2 practices.

The same goes for distinguishing between hunting and poaching...we don't do a good enough job here either.

quote:

What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?

The motivation of the hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?

The motivation of the hunter.

+1 on that as well...hence my previous statements about him.

But how do we as a group distance ourselves from personalities without alienating votes and dollars?

As we all know in the end...it is the dollars that make HSUS Born Free, etc etc strong.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?

The motivation of the hunter.

+1 on that as well...hence my previous statements about him.

But how do we as a group distance ourselves from personalities without alienating votes and dollars?

As we all know in the end...it is the dollars that make HSUS Born Free, etc etc strong.

It is not his motivation but his actions I find condemnable. He refers to the life he has taken as bitch, it is clear from his language the animals are just numbers to whack and stack, he poorly dispatches game, he has no concept of being able to identify and humanly kill his target, he mixes shooting with alcohol, and the animals he is targeting have no opportunity to escape or evade.

Personally i think the main focus of the whole movie was aimed at trying to legalise the sale of Rhino Horn internationally.I this they did a good job on pointing out the public that this issue needs to be addressed and as quickly as possible. 40 years ago the african crocodile was under threat. Today there must be over a million crocs being farmed for their skins. The crocodile shoot was a bad deal as all have recognised.The elephant hunt could have and should have been brained as quickly as possible. The teenage elephant bull is far to young to judge if it will end up being a trophy.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?

The motivation of the hunter.

+1 on that as well...hence my previous statements about him.

But how do we as a group distance ourselves from personalities without alienating votes and dollars?

As we all know in the end...it is the dollars that make HSUS Born Free, etc etc strong.

It is not his motivation but his actions I find condemnable. He refers to the life he has taken as bitch, it is clear from his language the animals are just numbers to whack and stack, he poorly dispatches game, he has no concept of being able to identify and humanly kill his target, he mixes shooting with alcohol, and the animals he is targeting have no opportunity to escape or evade.

His motivations drove his actions. In other words, what, at the core, motivates a person to act in all the despicable ways you mention? That is the root of it to me. Show me someone whose motivations are sound, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t act like this. Of course, there we go invoking ethics again.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
[QUOTE]What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?[/QUOT


The motivation of the hunter.

+1 on that as well...hence my previous statements about him.

But how do we as a group distance ourselves from personalities without alienating votes and dollars?

As we all know in the end...it is the dollars that make HSUS Born Free, etc etc strong.

It is not his motivation but his actions I find condemnable. He refers to the life he has taken as bitch, it is clear from his language the animals are just numbers to whack and stack, he poorly dispatches game, he has no concept of being able to identify and humanly kill his target, he mixes shooting with alcohol, and the animals he is targeting have no opportunity to escape or evade.

His motivations drove his actions. In other words, what, at the core, motivates a person to act in all the despicable ways you mention? That is the root of it to me. Show me someone whose motivations are sound, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t act like this. Of course, there we go invoking ethics again.

I agree with you. I am just trying to make room, intellectually, for someone who does not have what some of us may deem as proper motives; such ashunting for awards. However, does not engage in reprehensible conduct.

By focusing on the actions we stay away from questions of character. Stated otherwise, I agree his motivations allowed his behavior. I just do not care about motives until they become actions. I can point to his actions and say this is wrong, state why it is wrong, and hope those with larger platforms will do something to make such actions a thing of the past, or at least regulate those actions in the event they are less likely to be repeated by others.

Someone said that if the majority of hunters look at an activity and say that is wrong that should be the test for legislative or regulatory action. The actions of this shooter and outfitter do not meat that standard, what does?

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?

The motivation of the hunter.

+1 on that as well...hence my previous statements about him.

But how do we as a group distance ourselves from personalities without alienating votes and dollars?

As we all know in the end...it is the dollars that make HSUS Born Free, etc etc strong.

It is not his motivation but his actions I find condemnable. He refers to the life he has taken as bitch, it is clear from his language the animals are just numbers to whack and stack, he poorly dispatches game, he has no concept of being able to identify and humanly kill his target, he mixes shooting with alcohol, and the animals he is targeting have no opportunity to escape or evade.

His motivations drove his actions. In other words, what, at the core, motivates a person to act in all the despicable ways you mention? That is the root of it to me. Show me someone whose motivations are sound, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t act like this. Of course, there we go invoking ethics again.

That fellow is just a rotten egg...you can't fix that. We just have to distance ourselves from it but in a manner that does not weaken our numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
[QUOTE]What EXACTLY is it about the "croc execution" that makes it unacceptable for everyone?[/QUOT


The motivation of the hunter.

+1 on that as well...hence my previous statements about him.

But how do we as a group distance ourselves from personalities without alienating votes and dollars?

As we all know in the end...it is the dollars that make HSUS Born Free, etc etc strong.

It is not his motivation but his actions I find condemnable. He refers to the life he has taken as bitch, it is clear from his language the animals are just numbers to whack and stack, he poorly dispatches game, he has no concept of being able to identify and humanly kill his target, he mixes shooting with alcohol, and the animals he is targeting have no opportunity to escape or evade.

His motivations drove his actions. In other words, what, at the core, motivates a person to act in all the despicable ways you mention? That is the root of it to me. Show me someone whose motivations are sound, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t act like this. Of course, there we go invoking ethics again.

I agree with you. I am just trying to make room, intellectually, for someone who does not have what some of us may deem as proper motives; such ashunting for awards. However, does not engage in reprehensible conduct.

By focusing on the actions we stay away from questions of character. Stated otherwise, I agree his motivations allowed his behavior. I just do not care about motives until they become actions. I can point to his actions and say this is wrong, state why it is wrong, and hope those with larger platforms will do something to make such actions a thing of the past, or at least regulate those actions in the event they are less likely to be repeated by others.

Someone said that if the majority of hunters look at an activity and say that is wrong that should be the test for legislative or regulatory action. The actions of this shooter and outfitter do not meat that standard, what does?

The last thing we need is more legislation or regulation...as it will have no bearing on what happens in RSA anyway.

If the hunting organizations or Professional Hunt Associations do not legislate against obvious bad actors engaging in currently legal conduct, then how do we stop it?

I ask the body politic in on humility and sincerity.

Should we just ignore this and leave it with well that was a bad actor?

I do not think he is just one bad egg. That outfitter is not just one in a dozen. His operation should not be allowed to sell at DSC or SCI. There were many interviewed at SCI that shared his philosophy. The I want to shoot a croc for a purse group.

SCI and DSC need seminars where it is explained to hunters why a particular animal needs managed.

Dr. Packer said it best there are hunters and shooters. We have to get rid of shooters.

I would shot a croc because if not hunted local populations would kill and poison every croc to be rid of them all without the infusion of cash killing crocs provide. The rest is just encapsulating a memory.

We don’t need that type even if our numbers dwindle as a result.

I've always been in the if it's legal I won't criticize it camp but that croc thing was too much for me. Nauseating!

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
We don’t need that type even if our numbers dwindle as a result.

+1, absolutely.

That was more about the guy and how he acted then him hunting a croc. I don't like it but it was legal and I will not say raised crocs should not be hunted.

Most non hunters or anti's would have a harder time dealing with some big white hunter who shoots pregnant ele's over that croc. You can have all the science you want and we all know it happens. We all know if they found out how cow ele's get shoot when pregnant they would loose there mines. So better make sure your hunting does not hurt anyone before you jump on others. My ethics would not be for cow ele hunts but that is just me. But then that is why I don't push my ethics on anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

If the hunting organizations or Professional Hunt Associations do not legislate against obvious bad actors engaging in currently legal conduct, then how do we stop it?

In virtually any endeavor, if those involved in the endeavor do not self regulate their conduct in a manner that conforms to socially accepted standards, then eventually legislators and regulators will step in and regulate or prohibit the activity. And the legislative or regulatory solution will generally be overly prescriptive, draconian and burdensome. That is why the obligation falls on hunters and hunting organizations to self police the conduct of those involved in the sport and call out and condemn those that act irresponsibly or unethically.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
We don’t need that type even if our numbers dwindle as a result.

Absolutely correct and succinctly stated Larry! There is NO excuse for these individuals to be counted among us. And I include the PH involved in that Elephants suffering.

How do we legislate against individual behavior?

We do every day Carzyhorse. A group of us could easily come up with a statement two pages would seem unnecessaryly long outlining an inappropriate put and take high fence outfitter. Then do not let those who meet that definition sell hunts at the conventions , join or register the regional Professional Hunters Associations. Do not let those animals qualify for any book

Then the shooter cannot find the croc outfitter, and the practice dies.

Larry Shores has articulated a nuance difference between this guy and the Save. It requires nuance p, np it is not that difficult. We do it all the time in every part of life.

I will leave to you and other Texans to articulate a nuance for feeders. I cannot do it, but if someone can that carries the argument so be it.

For starters the property that uses feeders could not be engaged in the commercial farming and genetic manipulation through artificial means of the herd to obtain my support. Feeders would have to dispense feed across an area to prevent the exchange of diease. The deer would have to be of native genetics. Therefore, no killing off entire local herds on a property and restocking with out of state deer. I would strongly advocate for low non game fences.

Boone and Crocket draws a hard line; no high fence can qualify for its records. Or at least they use to. If this has changed someone please correct me.

I will have to give this some thought before replying because I do not agree with what has happened to hunting here in Texas, but as you have no experience in how things are done here, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you need to open your mind.

LHeym500,

Sometime when you have time...search on this forum all the discussions that took place when the LCTF was advocating for the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion (a very reasonable thing for everyone to agree upon by today’s standards) and read the opposition and see the people who argued against it. It will be eye opening. As you mention Craig Packer, a good friend of mine, pay particularly close attention to the flack I got for advocating his science.

When you have done that...you will understand what you are up against.

We lost that battle due to alienating people.

LHeym, have you ever hunted Musk Ox and Barren Ground Caribou?

Have you ever hunted Moose and Woodland Caribou on Newfoundland?

How about Elk and Mule Deer in western Colorado?

I think you are a good person LHeym, but you need to wake your ass up to the FACT that some of us have experienced things you haven't!

That’s rich . . . you lecturing anyone on the need for enlightenment.