Hello Thibeault and Everyone,

Every chance I get I like to ask other hunters about rifles, cartridges and bullets, as well as other hunting subject matter. Having been to Africa only three times and never having shot anything live with an X-type bullet, one can perhaps disregard my opinion on the subject. (I did find the 180 grain TSX to be terribly inaccurate in my otherwise super accurate .300 H&H).

Be that as it may, of the approx. dozen PHs I have had the pleasure of face to face converstation with, none liked the X-type bullets, complaining of too often failure to expand, especially on "normal" size game. In other words, deer and elk size critters in USA terms. According to said PHs, the X-type bullets generally expand and are then quite impressive. But when X-bullets decide to not expand, they act just like a military FMJ spitzer. 100 percent of the PHs I spoke with during my three so far trips......you know....."over there", assured me that they preferred conventional JSP bullets, in appropriate calibers for the game sought and with heavy-ish for caliber bullets.

In other words, 175 grain 7mm or 220 grain .30 and so forth it goes. They all agreed that if the shots will likely be longer than short, the 180 grain .30-06 is still one of the best choices for hunting so called "plains game" and the shorter the likely range the heavier and more blunt the bullet should be.

None of "them" are fond of the USA's tendency for hyper velocity cartridges as bullets tend to behave less predictably the higher the velocity is, according to their experiences. I have noticed this same bunch seems like they can hardly even say the words "Weatherby" or "Ultra-Mag" without rolling their eyes. Unless of course a paying client has brought one over and then mums the word until he pays up and gets on the plane back to wherever he came from.

Again my personal experience is limited to conventional bullets and I have nothing but praise for the ones I have used in Africa. They include 180 grain Nosler Partition @ 2800 fps (.300 H&H)in the wide open desert of Namibia. The 300 grain Hornady RNSP @ 2400 fps in .375 H&H in The Lowveld of S. Africa and last time the 220 grain Hndy @ 2300 fps in .30-06 again in The Lowveld, as well as the Highveld. I cannot say enough good about my limited experience with these bullets and loads. For me, if it works, don't fix it. When I can afford a buffalo hunt some day, I plan to use either Woodleigh or Hornady or Swift A-frame or Dead Tough in my .450 #2 Nitro SxS or in my .416 Rigby Mauser, haven't decided yet. Don't have the money yet any way. Cross that bridge when I get to it.

Stay safe.
Ard

A ground hog taken with a regular old Speer something or other bullet.
The exit wound on a ground hog taken with a 30/06 shooting a Barnes 168 gr. TSX bullet. Notice the difference?

Obviously, on such a small animal the bullet just penciled through failing to expand at all.

I now have a confession to make. I can afford Barnes bullets and like them for some applications. It so happens that I tried them in my 375 H&H Magnum and wasn't able to get satisfactory accuracy from them so use Speer bullets which did much better.

In my 30/06, however, both Barnes TSX and Banded Solids shoot to the same place at 100 yards and give excellent accuracy so I use them in reloading for that rifle. If I were going to shoot an Eland with a .308 caliber rifle, I would be using a Barnes bullet.

Of interest is the fact that there is at least one South Africa outfitter who, on his web site, says he doesn't allow the use of all copper bullets. Needless to say, I think he is ignorant and would never consider hunting with him even if I didn't want to use a bullet he dislikes.

Hello Grumulkin,

Not sure where "ground hogs" (AKA over grown hamsters) and/or Glock pistols fit into the man's question about which bullet to take to Africa for his first Safari. My favorite PH, Hannes Swanepoel, (contact info: www.hannesswanepoelsafaris.co.za) has culled over a thousand cape buffalo when formerly working as a Game Warden in Kruger Park. This is not to mention his also culling many other species for a living, up to and including numerous elephant. Since those days he has opened a safari company and has guided clients from all over the world, with all sorts of rifles and cartridges.

Mr. Swanepoel has guided for all 5 of the "Big-5" as well as most lesser species commonly found in South Africa, Namibia and Mozambique. He presumeably would know more about bullet selection for African game than you and I put together. Furthermore, most of the African PHs I have had the pleasure of listening to in person (about a dozen so far during three trips to Africa) are of similar vast experience. None of them liked the X type bullets however most said they would be happy to guide those clients who insisted on bringing X-type bullets, as long as they had the money to pay for their safari.

It is hard for someone like me with only about 85 head of big game under my belt to imagine what it must be like to have shot over a thousand African buffalo, not to mention quite a few elephant and many thousands of lesser species. Perhaps your definition of "ignorant" and mine are not from the same dictionary? The typical African PH is usually anything but ignorant compared to the typical American big game hunter, in the arena of bullet selection for big game, among other related topics.

Mr S. assures me that in his professional opinion these X-type bullets are not yet ready for prime time. In other words he feels they are still in the eXperimental stage. He advises his clients to just bring conventional JSP for non-dangerous game (and leopard) but for buffalo, to bring heavy for caliber bonded core JSP such as Bear Claws or A-Frames, with blunt shaped "solids" for follow up shots. For elephant, rhino and hippo, he wants to see all solids.

He tells me that he has seen enough failures to expand from these X-type bullets that he does not trust them yet. Perhaps the new plastic tipped ones will work more reliably than the X and TSX. Time will tell. Reportedly when the X-types expand (which is admittedly MOST of the time) they are very impressive. However, when they decide now and then to not expand, they act like Military FMJ spitzers. Imagine having to go into the thorn and long grass after a 400+ Lb lion that has been "ice picked" by one of these "decided to not expand this time" fancy new style bullets.

Sometimes we see a new product and tend to get excited too soon. I suggest we slow down and thoroughly ring each product out before singing happy songs about whatever it is. We should be especially suspicious of products that claim to do everything from cure gout and make you rich, to help you find a good woman.

I would like to hear from someone or persons who has/have had a conventional/old fashioned RNSP, (not spitzer or spire point, etc), fail to expand in a big game animal at typical hunting velocity. I am not closed minded. I am always willing to learn from other person's experiences.

Back to ground hogs. The first one I ever took was when I was a child with a single shot shotgun and #6 lead shot. I cooked and ate it. The flavor was very good, something like cottontail rabbit but tough as a mouth full of rubber bands and fishing line. Very difficult to chew but I will submit; hardly a test of Africa worthy rifle bullets.

I apologize for my sarchasm but if I am nothing else, I am a wiseguy. No offense intended, only humor. Feel free to poke humor back at me every time. I deserve and welcome it.

Stay safe.
Ard

quote:

Mr S. assures me that in his professional opinion these X-type bullets are not yet ready for prime time. In other words he feels they are still in the eXperimental stage.

Well, you can tell Mr. S that he is talking a load of bloody bullshit!

The Barnes X bullets, and other expanding bullets made of copper without any lead, as superior to ANY bullet that has lead in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Mr S. assures me that in his professional opinion these X-type bullets are not yet ready for prime time. In other words he feels they are still in the eXperimental stage.

Well, you can tell Mr. S that he is talking a load of bloody bullshit!

The Barnes X bullets, and other expanding bullets made of copper without any lead, as superior to ANY bullet that has lead in it.

Ard - next time you communicate with Mr. S of the bush you might bring him into the 21st century from the 19th. X type bullets are already passe'...we have Y and Z bullets now with GPS guidance which are steerable after leaving the bore. No excuses for missing anymore...

There are 2 separate issues here. The issue I'm going to address is cost; are Barnes bullets a waste of money on most game even if we concede they are tremendously effective?

I'd have to say no, they're not really that much more expensive. I'm going to be taking my .416 Rigby to Zimbabwe in April and Cameroon next February. Confining ourselves to soft points, the least expensive 400 grain .416 bullets available are Hornady Interlocks. Those are 69 cents each at current Midway prices. I use those for practice. I load 400 grain Barnes TSX bullets for hunting. Those are $1.24 per bullet from Midway. So Barnes TSXs are 55 cents more than Hornady. If I shoot 10 animals per trip, and I use 2 rounds per animal I'll save a whopping total of $11 on each trip if I use the Interlock.

If the cost difference between using bullet X on a safari or bullet Y is only eleven dollars, then it's ridiculous to choose between them based on that consideration. It's trivial compared to air fare, daily rates, trophy fees, or even the price of the airport shuttle. $11 is about the amount I'll tip at a medium priced restaurant. If $11 is that much of a consideration for you, maybe you shouldn't be spending money on safaris.

China Fleet Sailor, as usual, is the voice of reason and makes my point exactly.

If cup-and-core bullets float your boat, good for you. But dismissing out of hand Barnes copper bullets, for the sole reasoning of saving money, well that's just absurd.

Hello Saeed,

So, when other people have and opinion, you actually get angry? That's mature.

Ard.

Oops, I meant "an" opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:
Hello Saeed,

So, when other people have and opinion, you actually get angry? That's mature.

Ard.

I don't get angry, but for a so called PH to actually say bullets like the Barnes X are only experimental and should be avoided shows his utter ignorance of bullet performance.

Federal Premium Tropy Bonded Bearclaws.

The number of one shot kills on african game I will not post lest I be called a fibber.

Jeff

Oh and the question about X type bullets is so ten years ago...

quote:

Originally posted by boltshooter:
My 1st & only hunt in Africa (thus far) was in June 2008 - plains game South Africa. I was very successful in taking all the game intended. I was shooting a 375 H&H using 300 grain Woodleighs.

Prior to the hunt I used this site as the "bible" for that great adventure & like Bill I wondered what bullet to use. The experts here all offer great advice.

BUT, prior to the hunt I spent a great deal of time developing accurate loads with SEVERAL PREMIUM BULLETS!

Would it be easier for new comers like Bill & myself if you guys would list the BULLETS NOT TO USE?

In 2003 I used Speer African Grand Slam 300gr in my 375 H&H. They were too soft for cape buffalo expanding quickly and giving poor penetration prompting my PH to say maybe they would be good lion bullets. Don't know if Speer has toughened them up since then.
BTW the X bullet had some issues like fouling and accuracy in some applications but these were addressed in the TSX and when driven to designed velocities, I for one have never seen a failure. This is fortunate because in my area of California, we can no longer use bullets that contain lead.

Hello again Saeed,

Your potty talk and exclamation mark, all in the same sentence seemed to indicate anger. If that was not an accurate asumption on my part, I apologize for thinking it to be so. My mistake.

So, you are saying that a man who has culled animals from elephant to insects so to speak, including over a thousand buffalo and has the nerve to disagree with you is; "showing his utter ignorance of bullet performance"? Interesting.

When they start pouring that Koolaid, slip out into the jungle. You'll thank me later.
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:
Hello Saeed,

So, when other people have and opinion, you actually get angry? That's mature.

Ard.

I don't get angry, but for a so called PH to actually say bullets like the Barnes X are only experimental and should be avoided shows his utter ignorance of bullet performance.

I honestly do not care if he is Hercules's grandson and have killed dragons too.

If he actually said Barnes X are only experimental and should be avoided, and instead us SP bullets, then he IS showing his utter ignorance of modern bullets and how they perform.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I honestly do not care if he is Hercules's grandson and have killed dragons too.

That is hilarious!

Bullet failure??? or human failure??? I have shot many African animals from wart hog up to and including elephants... I have shot Hornady's, Nosler, X, and TSX bullets... I have made some great shots and have missed a few to tell the truth... But an X or TSX failure to me seems impossible... What many of us do is fire a shot reload the rifle and a new round goes in the chamber when we top off the magazine and the same bullets stay in there and get banged back and forth with recoil... Being a hollow point if it crushes shut it sure will be hard for the bullet to expand... I am heading back in Aug for a full bag safari to Tanzania and solids and TSX bullets will be with me...

Summing it all up what I am saying is good shooting is more important then the bullet... But also I am stating the premium bullets do away with many of the old applications of using solids on buf... These are my thoughts..

Mike

I really have no business giving any opinion on the choice of bullet for Africa as I have not yet been. What I can informatively say is that I too have a game management agent friend who spent 17 years in the bush in Africa. He has only killed 65 buf, 25 lion and some hippo, leopard, etc. but I would call him experienced.

He used Barnes X bullets and recommended them.
He also used Nosler Partitions and recommended them saying he could see no field difference in their performance.
He did most of his hunting with a BRNO .375 H&H and 300gn bullets.
(Had he had the Barnes TSX bullets at his disposal, he said would have used them.)

We have discussed bullets and calibers ad nauseum and he has said humbly and directly, that the important thing is placing a quality bullet in the heart/lung area on the first shot.
Evidently, he considered the X (or X type) a quality bullet. Note: he also said that if he had it to do all over again he would still use his trusted and proven .375 H&H for his work.

Saeed, my Pen Pal,

I for one have great respect for your opinion since it is based on your plentiful first hand big game hunting experiences. As I recall, you have taken 60 buffalo, 6 lion, 3 leopard and a host of other critters. So far I have only been to Africa three times but have no plans to quit yet. I rather enjoy reading your accounts of those envious trips repeatedly to Africa.

So far I have only been there 3 times and for so called "plains game" only. I will count myself very fortunate if I take 6 buffalo, one or two leopards and perhaps a lion before I sleep with the fishes. That makes me a rank beginner compared to yourself however it does not mean that I cannot ALSO listen to people with vastly more experience than yourself.

I fully understand that you are sold on (or perhaps are actually selling) Barnes X/TSX bullets and/or your own home spun version of them. They have reportedly worked like magic for you and again, I respect that. The chaps I have spoken with and of who prefer other types of projectiles do not forbid clients using your favorites, they just prefer and suggest others, especially for the not so huge animals like impala, etc.

When someone bases their opinion on their own considerable life's experiences, such as the roughly dozen PHs I have mentioned, (one in particular) who, then prefer other brands of bullets over your favorite brand, you say that sort of reasoning is; showing "utter ignorance"? Okaay.

Also, What is your definition of "wannabe PH" any way?
Perhaps: "Any PH who dares to disagree with Saeed." Just a guess.

Keep well.
Ard

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I honestly do not care if he is Hercules's grandson and have killed dragons too.

If he actually said Barnes X are only experimental and should be avoided, and instead us SP bullets, then he IS showing his utter ignorance of modern bullets and how they perform.

In reading these posts, am I to assume that for buffalo hunting TSX's could be used without backing up with a solid? It would sure be nice not trying to have both bullets print together and elimate mixing the two different bullets.

I wonder if the same guy who claims BarnesX should not be used for DG would also bad mouth another very similar bullet from GS Custom. I have never been to Africa, I hope to go someday. I am a hand loader and I will take only my ammo loaded exclusively with Gerard Schultz Custom bullets. Gerard, my appologies if I miss-spelled your name. My spelling sucks. GS CUSTOM BULLETS ARE FANTASTIC!!! I am suprised nobody mentioned them before now.

Andy B

WOW!! Part of the problem I see with the replies in this thread are similar in nature to what I've seen in other threads on this forum. The OP asked about bullets, based upon experience, for African big game. In reading the advice posted I note that some respondents admit to NEVER having hunted Africa, while others admit to one, two or even three safaris for plains game. We all start somewhere but I fail to understand how someone who has hunted only three times (total maybe 30 days?) and perhaps in only one country of sub-Saharan Africa can presume they are experts in anything related to African hunting. They have some limited experience but really no expertise. Truth be told, they are just beginning to be able to find the men's room at JNB and have just enough experience to get themself or someone else in deep do-do. Nothing personal in this, just the way it is in any endeavor. And if you have only hunted on ranches in RSA, Namibia or Zim, you have really limited your African experience even more severely. Repeating what someone not participating in the discussion has told you is subject to your interpretation and is called hearsay in the legal field. Although not stated, I think Saeed may be viewing some of the above comments in a similar light.

I frequently see posters referring to the vast experience they have hunting Whitetails while posting on the African forums. HEY, HERE'S A NEWSFLASH - There Are NO Whitetails in Africa!

It's fine to express your opinions based upon your training, education and experience. In terms of African hunting it is the latter which meets the burden of veracity. I have never personally met Saeed, but I have made inquiries and it appears to me he more than meets the experience required to qualify his opinions as having some degree of validity. Likewise, I know there are others here who also have that level of experience. I include myself in that regard as well. For all that, our opinions are still just that. But if you go through life ignoring the opinions and guidance of those persons who have valid experience in a given field, it is highly likely that you will be less successful than those who choose to listen.

As to the OP, my partner and I ran tests in RSA and Zambia in 1999 on four different premium bullets. We found the then available Barnes original X bullet to fail to open and have many pass throughs. We also tested TBBC. The bullet we found to be most effective was the Swift A-Frame. We used rifles in .338-06, .300wm, .375H&H and .416Rem. We hunted game from Red Duiker and Hyena to Cape Buff (2) and Hippo (2). The loads were all from Superior Ammunition. Results were anecdotal. I have used the Swift A-Frame exclusively since.

Prior to that safari I had used the Nosler Partion bullet with good success on annual African safari but wanted a bonded bullet for larger game. I will soon begin experiments with the Barnes TSX bullet in the Federal loading, as we in CA are now forbidden to use bullets containing lead.

Cheers!

quote:

Also, What is your definition of "wannabe PH" any way?
Perhaps: "Any PH who dares to disagree with Saeed." Just a guess.

My definition of a "wannabe" PH is the same as my defintion of a wannabe safar hunter.

It is those who have either read or heard some someone state soething, and they make it like it has come down from God.

I love reading, and seeing some of the complete rubbish written by some is incredible.

And your PH proves my point.

I can assure you whatever "failures" he might have had with Barnes X bullets - and bullets like them _ boils down to either him or his clients not shooting the animal in the right place.

If you read what is written on our heading page, you will know that we do not sell and goods or services.

I certainly do not sell Barnes bullets, but as far as I am concerned, they - and other bullets made of copper, are far superior for hunting game animals than any bullet that has lead in it.

And to suggest that hunters use normal SP instead is is actually criminal.

Just ask him why did hunters of the past prefer FMJ bullets to SP.

PENETRATION!

It would be interesting to hear his stories of why he does not like Barnes X bullets.

I used 300 gr. Northforks in my 375 for cape buffalo and elephant. 300 gr. Nosler Partitions for everything else.

Dave

To answer the original question, I used Barnes TSX in my 416 Rem and 338 Win for my first trip to Tanz. Killed two buffalo and 5 plainsgame with no problems. I also believe if I shot any of these animals with another premium bullet with the identical placement as the TSX the result would have been the same.

Hi Saeed,

Nobody of my aquaintence is claiming to be God here. I have never demanded that anyone's ideas, even though based on their substantial life's experiences, are the gospel. I simply posted a notion as it was told to me and you replied with swear words and insults.

I haven't I boiled over and spewed insults, at you, (like you have repeatedly done to me here for some reason). You have your own very valid and worthy thoughts on bullet performance, based on your lengthy experiences. Learn to allow other people to have their own thoughts as well, especially when they have way more experience than you do (referring to PHs I have mentioned).

I respect your opinion. You have definitely earned it. I repeat, I am but a rank beginner compared to you. Again, that does not mean I have to ignore suggestions from other people who have had way more experience than you have had in the shooting of big game and examining bullet wounds.

In your behalf, the best selling author, Wildlife Veterinarian and Zimbabwe PH, Keven Doctari" Robertson, endorses the X-type bullets, along with other premium bullets. I respect his opinion as well (huge understatement).
When Dr. Robertson speaks, I listen. Hope that does not spike your blood pressure.

As a result of reading his EXCELLENT book "The Perfect Shot", and reading some of his numerous magazine articles, at some stage I would like to try these latest plastic tipped TSX bullets.

The idea of a plastic tip to keep the hollow point from bashing shut in the magazine (recoil) or when it nicks a bone, or hits dry mud (warthog) appeals to me. I have personally experienced an old fashioned hollow point fail to expand on a coyote (6mm 75 grain JHP) by the way and am therefore somewhat suspicious of hollow points in general.

I can only guess the hole filled with hair and therefore was unable to fill with blood. This I guess kept the hydraulic force of body fluid from opening the mushroom. If liquid cannot get into the hole, it cannot do it's hydraulic thing evidentally. Even though it was marketed as a varmint bullet, it failed to expand on a varmint. Others from the same box seemed to work fine.

In your opinion, are the newer plastic tipped TSX bullets better in any way than the other versions? It seems Barnes is ever changing their design (experimental?) of Barnes mono-metal bullets but the plastic tipped one seems like a good change in theory. I value your thoughts on this.

The X-type bullets have evidentally worked so well for you that you believe hunting with conventional bullets is "criminal." That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Nobody I know will slight you for it. You may take hundreds or thousands of critters with that type projectile and never experience a failure to expand. I hope it is so. Truthfully.

I only submit (again) that I have spoken to about a dozen PHs who do not prefer the X-type bullets, according to themselves due to occaisional failures to expand. They sounded like they all would be happy to guide clients who insist on using X-type projectiles.

However, they all seemed to prefer conventional and/or bonded core JSP projectiles for most game, then bonded core JSP like swift A-frame, TB Bearclaw, etc., etc. for such as the first shot on buffalo, and blunt solids for some specific heavy game as well as following up wounded buffalo.
You don't have to have a cow about it.

Cheers,
Ard

PS: Your last line contradicts your 1st, 4th and 5th lines.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Also, What is your definition of "wannabe PH" any way?
Perhaps: "Any PH who dares to disagree with Saeed." Just a guess.

My definition of a "wannabe" PH is the same as my defintion of a wannabe safar hunter.

It is those who have either read or heard some someone state soething, and they make it like it has come down from God.

I love reading, and seeing some of the complete rubbish written by some is incredible.

And your PH proves my point.

I can assure you whatever "failures" he might have had with Barnes X bullets - and bullets like them _ boils down to either him or his clients not shooting the animal in the right place.

If you read what is written on our heading page, you will know that we do not sell and goods or services.

I certainly do not sell Barnes bullets, but as far as I am concerned, they - and other bullets made of copper, are far superior for hunting game animals than any bullet that has lead in it.

And to suggest that hunters use normal SP instead is is actually criminal.

Just ask him why did hunters of the past prefer FMJ bullets to SP.

PENETRATION!

It would be interesting to hear his stories of why he does not like Barnes X bullets.

quote:

I haven't I boiled over and spewed insults, at you, (like you have repeatedly done to me here for some reason).

Would you please show me where I have actually insulted you?

You were never mentioned in my posts, it is your so called PH who is claiming that normal SP are better than Barnes X.

A notion that is so far from the truth as anything can get as far as bullet performance is.

There will never be a definitive "best bullet", there are a number of great premium bullets out in the market and many that are not considered to be premium that used sensibly will do the job perfectly.

To add my 5 cents to the debate about the X bullets - i have yet to see any african animal shot in the right place with an x bullet run away never to be found or get to live another day. They are not my first choice on cats but for anything else they are deadly; personally i like a bullet that exits, they leave a good blood trail.

Yesser I will try to do just that,

When two intellectuals are conversing about what otherwise should be an interesting subject and one of them refers to the other's friends with derogatory terms like: "so called PH, wannabe PH, shows his utter ignorance, Hercules's Grandson, has slain dragons, so far from the truth and criminal", the speaker is insulting not only the person described with these rough terms but insulting the listener as well.

People who want to insult the listener directly but can find no rust on their armor, (other than; "wannabe safari client") sometimes will try launching their insults at someone within the listener's comfort zone, such as friends or family. Example: "Oh yeah, Well, your Momma wears Army boots" type of thing.
At least that is so in the English speaking and Spanish speaking culture.
I will guess that it is so in most cultures.

When you say a particular PH is talking a load of bloody BS, that sir is calling the man a bloody liar. Referring to someone's friend as a bloody liar, when all they had done was describe their particular life's experiences, it will likely be taken as an insult by both the targeted PH (my friend) and the man who repeated the information (me).

It's just good cricket to wait until someone has actually told a bloody lie before you call them a bloody liar. Nobody I know of has said that you are talking a load of bloody BS because you have had superb results with your chosen equipment. Nobody.

I do not share your opinion on traditional RNSP vs copper alloy bullets yet. I'm still mulling it over. Insulting me by calling my friends derogatory names won't convince me of your opinion any sooner.

Hopefully I have answered your question.

Now, if I may be so bold as to ask a question of my own; Why do you keep clobbering me about this X-bullet thing? Is it so huge that you and I cannot agree to disagree like two grown men? There are several other members writing here who have said they prefer other brands over the X-types.

Perhaps you can let up on me and clobber them for awhile about this. I need to come up for air once in awhile.

Here is a very short list of ignorant, bloody BS talkers, friends of so called Game Managers, friends of so called PHs, Hercules's Grandsons, criminals that are happy with cheap bullets and wannabe safari clients that you can start with while I catch my weezing 56 year old breath:

1. Pancho...Going to keep using TB Bear Claws.
2. use enough gun...Likes TB Bear Claws and TB Sledge Hammers.
3. onefunzer2...His PH recommends any brand of Premium bullets.
4. TerryR...very happy with TB Bear Claw for buffalo and plains game.
5. Grumulkin...4 photos of animals taken with one shot each of "crappy and cheap" as he put it Speer bullets. He also included one animal shot with Barnes bullet, so perhaps you can accuse him of talking a load of just BS instead of the full monte'; bloody BS.
6. wanderer...8 one shot kills with Nosler Partitions.
7. vvarrior...Broke eland's shoulder with "cheap, unbonded lead core bullet."
8. ScottW...His Game Management friend "could see no field difference" between X and Nosler Partitions.

Letem havit Saeed, they are all very naughty.

seriously, that being said, I am wondering if we are possibly dragging down the pleasure of this forum for others.

I feel like some old lady who has nothing better to do than to go back and forth with someone over: Which is best for making sweaters?..crochet vs knitting.

Hopefully you can see your way to accept the fact that I will listen to you as one part of my learning process but not my entire learning process and then I can have a break from this useless tug-o-war.

If it cannot be so, then fire away I guess. Whatever.
Yours truly,
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I haven't I boiled over and spewed insults, at you, (like you have repeatedly done to me here for some reason).

Would you please show me where I have actually insulted you?

You were never mentioned in my posts, it is your so called PH who is claiming that normal SP are better than Barnes X.

A notion that is so far from the truth as anything can get as far as bullet performance is.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
We all start somewhere but I fail to understand how someone who has hunted only three times (total maybe 30 days?) and perhaps in only one country of sub-Saharan Africa can presume they are experts in anything related to African hunting. They have some limited experience but really no expertise. Truth be told, they are just beginning to be able to find the men's room at JNB and have just enough experience to get themself or someone else in deep do-do. Nothing personal in this, just the way it is in any endeavor.

I agree entirely with this observation. And most of your others. But only to a point. Experience does not necessarily meet the test of veracity. "Familiarity breeds contempt" may be a cliche, but it's often borne out in reality. Experience can provide insight into something, but it's just as possible that experience can simply provide someone with a set of prejudices and bad habits.

To quote a wise man, "Nothing personal in this, just the way it is in any endeavor." It's possible to get away with using marginal equipment and questionable practices for a long time. It may never bite you in the backside. But it only has to bite you once to change your life. Let's face it, whenever we hear about someone having a ND that kills or injures someone, or even worse someone who fails to identify their target and shoots someone, they generally fall into one of two categories: very inexperienced hunters, or very experienced hunters. And when it's the latter, the first thing to spew out of their mouths is something along the lines of how they've been hunting and shooting for umpteen years and nothing like this has ever happened. It must be a defective gun!

Yeah, right.

To use an analogy that falls into the non-hunting, "any endeavor" category, when I was in the Navy I was the shore safety officer at a couple of installations (now THERE'S a desirable collateral duty. not. More accurately, I failed to get out of getting that appointment. Get it once, and it's like catching Herpes; you'll never get rid of it.) So, following a mishap I would be put into the position of evaluating the actions of people who had far more experience than I would ever want to get in various fields. And naturally people would get defensive when their professional actions are questioned. So there could be the undercurrent of "I've been doing this for 17 years and never had an accident; who the f#$@ are you to question me?"

Who was I to question them? My answer: the f@#$in' investigating officer getting paid to do exactly that. And if I determine that the cause of the mishap was, say, because you didn't follow lock out/tag out procedures before working on electrical equipment then it doesn't matter how many times your shortcuts worked before. Your experience taught you the wrong lessons. And the sole point of reporting my findings was to provide others with the information to enable them to avoid making the same mistake; to keep them from "learning from experience."

Field experience is hard to argue with. I respect it. But it ain't all that and a bag of chips. Because no one person's experience is exhaustive, I take it with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I still see it as more a matter of reading comprehension than experience to confine one's self to the originator's question. And he asked for the best bullets to use in a .375 H&H, and mentioned that he is planning to take a mix of solids and softs.

Which tells this hunter who barely qualifies on the basis of "been there, done that" that the range of game to be hunted includes game that are beyond the capabilities of lesser cartridges or of soft points alone to take.

In the limited, unexpert opinion of this rank amateur who can at least find the restroom in the Jo'berg airport, we are not talking exclusively about budget bullets for plains game. And in my limited, unexpert opinion, one type of soft point that is adequate on the basis of bullet performance on game alone, and one type of solid that is adequate on the basis of performance on game alone, for a single rifle is plenty for any hunter to deal with on the type of safari where a mix of solids and softpoints would be appropriate.

Beyond that, I will leave it to those with more expertise to recommend the most effective softpoint bullets to use which, in their considered opinion, would best complement a good solid in the .375H&H. And to Bill Thibault to decide who's opinions to listen to.

China Fleet Sailor

Yours are words to live by Amigo. Also it is nice to see there's at least one chap out there who is long winded like me. Stick to your guns man, you are on the mark.

Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
We all start somewhere but I fail to understand how someone who has hunted only three times (total maybe 30 days?) and perhaps in only one country of sub-Saharan Africa can presume they are experts in anything related to African hunting. They have some limited experience but really no expertise. Truth be told, they are just beginning to be able to find the men's room at JNB and have just enough experience to get themself or someone else in deep do-do. Nothing personal in this, just the way it is in any endeavor.

I agree entirely with this observation. And most of your others. But only to a point. Experience does not necessarily meet the test of veracity. "Familiarity breeds contempt" may be a cliche, but it's often borne out in reality. Experience can provide insight into something, but it's just as possible that experience can simply provide someone with a set of prejudices and bad habits.

To quote a wise man, "Nothing personal in this, just the way it is in any endeavor." It's possible to get away with using marginal equipment and questionable practices for a long time. It may never bite you in the backside. But it only has to bite you once to change your life. Let's face it, whenever we hear about someone having a ND that kills or injures someone, or even worse someone who fails to identify their target and shoots someone, they generally fall into one of two categories: very inexperienced hunters, or very experienced hunters. And when it's the latter, the first thing to spew out of their mouths is something along the lines of how they've been hunting and shooting for umpteen years and nothing like this has ever happened. It must be a defective gun!

Yeah, right.

To use an analogy that falls into the non-hunting, "any endeavor" category, when I was in the Navy I was the shore safety officer at a couple of installations (now THERE'S a desirable collateral duty. not. More accurately, I failed to get out of getting that appointment. Get it once, and it's like catching Herpes; you'll never get rid of it.) So, following a mishap I would be put into the position of evaluating the actions of people who had far more experience than I would ever want to get in various fields. And naturally people would get defensive when their professional actions are questioned. So there could be the undercurrent of "I've been doing this for 17 years and never had an accident; who the f#$@ are you to question me?"

Who was I to question them? My answer: the f@#$in' investigating officer getting paid to do exactly that. And if I determine that the cause of the mishap was, say, because you didn't follow lock out/tag out procedures before working on electrical equipment then it doesn't matter how many times your shortcuts worked before. Your experience taught you the wrong lessons. And the sole point of reporting my findings was to provide others with the information to enable them to avoid making the same mistake; to keep them from "learning from experience."

Field experience is hard to argue with. I respect it. But it ain't all that and a bag of chips. Because no one person's experience is exhaustive, I take it with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I still see it as more a matter of reading comprehension than experience to confine one's self to the originator's question. And he asked for the best bullets to use in a .375 H&H, and mentioned that he is planning to take a mix of solids and softs.

Which tells this hunter who barely qualifies on the basis of "been there, done that" that the range of game to be hunted includes game that are beyond the capabilities of lesser cartridges or of soft points alone to take.

In the limited, unexpert opinion of this rank amateur who can at least find the restroom in the Jo'berg airport, we are not talking exclusively about budget bullets for plains game. And in my limited, unexpert opinion, one type of soft point that is adequate on the basis of bullet performance on game alone, and one type of solid that is adequate on the basis of performance on game alone, for a single rifle is plenty for any hunter to deal with on the type of safari where a mix of solids and softpoints would be appropriate.

Beyond that, I will leave it to those with more expertise to recommend the most effective softpoint bullets to use which, in their considered opinion, would best complement a good solid in the .375H&H. And to Bill Thibault to decide who's opinions to listen to.

Scott450,

I hear you loud and clear. Seems reasonable to me. Well put Sir.

Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
There will never be a definitive "best bullet", there are a number of great premium bullets out in the market and many that are not considered to be premium that used sensibly will do the job perfectly.

To add my 5 cents to the debate about the X bullets - i have yet to see any african animal shot in the right place with an x bullet run away never to be found or get to live another day. They are not my first choice on cats but for anything else they are deadly; personally i like a bullet that exits, they leave a good blood trail.

Superb performance of A-Frames in 375 H&H since Remington brought them to the market in the early 90's.

On my first safaris I made the mistake to take two different loads with me, one the A-Frame and the second handloads with Sierra 300 Gameking for "Antelopes". The Sierras were a disaster, they even failed to penetrate bushbock in ZW.
Since then only A-Frames for Softs.

In 416 Rigby/ 458 Lott I was pleased with Woodleighs and also A Square Solids.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Mr S. assures me that in his professional opinion these X-type bullets are not yet ready for prime time. In other words he feels they are still in the eXperimental stage.

Well, you can tell Mr. S that he is talking a load of bloody bullshit!

The Barnes X bullets, and other expanding bullets made of copper without any lead, as superior to ANY bullet that has lead in it.

+1

Abie DuPlooy has probably about as much experience as anyone as a PH and told me personally that the Barnes TSX is the best bullet he has ever used in his 35+ years of being a licensed PH, he likes them so much that he doesn't even bother with solids any longer.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
WOW!! Part of the problem I see with the replies in this thread are similar in nature to what I've seen in other threads on this forum. The OP asked about bullets, based upon experience, for African big game. In reading the advice posted I note that some respondents admit to NEVER having hunted Africa, while others admit to one, two or even three safaris for plains game. We all start somewhere but I fail to understand how someone who has hunted only three times (total maybe 30 days?) and perhaps in only one country of sub-Saharan Africa can presume they are experts in anything related to African hunting. They have some limited experience but really no expertise. Truth be told, they are just beginning to be able to find the men's room at JNB and have just enough experience to get themself or someone else in deep do-do. Nothing personal in this, just the way it is in any endeavor. And if you have only hunted on ranches in RSA, Namibia or Zim, you have really limited your African experience even more severely. Repeating what someone not participating in the discussion has told you is subject to your interpretation and is called hearsay in the legal field. Although not stated, I think Saeed may be viewing some of the above comments in a similar light.

I frequently see posters referring to the vast experience they have hunting Whitetails while posting on the African forums. HEY, HERE'S A NEWSFLASH - There Are NO Whitetails in Africa!

It's fine to express your opinions based upon your training, education and experience. In terms of African hunting it is the latter which meets the burden of veracity. I have never personally met Saeed, but I have made inquiries and it appears to me he more than meets the experience required to qualify his opinions as having some degree of validity. Likewise, I know there are others here who also have that level of experience. I include myself in that regard as well. For all that, our opinions are still just that. But if you go through life ignoring the opinions and guidance of those persons who have valid experience in a given field, it is highly likely that you will be less successful than those who choose to listen.

As to the OP, my partner and I ran tests in RSA and Zambia in 1999 on four different premium bullets. We found the then available Barnes original X bullet to fail to open and have many pass throughs. We also tested TBBC. The bullet we found to be most effective was the Swift A-Frame. We used rifles in .338-06, .300wm, .375H&H and .416Rem. We hunted game from Red Duiker and Hyena to Cape Buff (2) and Hippo (2). The loads were all from Superior Ammunition. Results were anecdotal. I have used the Swift A-Frame exclusively since.

Prior to that safari I had used the Nosler Partion bullet with good success on annual African safari but wanted a bonded bullet for larger game. I will soon begin experiments with the Barnes TSX bullet in the Federal loading, as we in CA are now forbidden to use bullets containing lead.

Cheers!

Wow yourself Lion Hunter,

Good post.

If I am the "hunted only three times...total maybe 30 days..only one country...presumes they are experts, but actually can barely find the men's room at Johannesburg Airport person" you refer to, stand by for news. (If not, please forgive me for presuming you were referring to me).

Yours Truly has never referred to himself as anything above the level of rank beginner but my last trip to Africa alone I spent a full month on the ground. The previous two Africa trips I have been blessed with were 14 days and 19 days on the ground, not including travel time. That alas still only qualifies me as a rank beginner and I know it well.

As for the men's room at Jo-Burg, I do not know where it is....honest. Why do you know so very well where it is? Do you know where the men's room is in The Minneapolis Airport? (Just kidding, sorry).

Generally I do not try to predict the future but I like to think that I will not get anyone into as you say; "deep do-do", with dangerous game. I think this mostly because I seemed to have lucked into a PH who appears to know more about such matters than most folks do.

I gauge this by a number of things. These include but are not limited to: His track record, (formerly culled dangerous game in Kruger Park before opening his safari company), also his reputation with the locals and clients. There appears to be obvious high quality in the other PHs who call themselves his good friends. This is not to mention the man's proper education in biology. Like myself but with light years more experience at it, he is an enthusiastic examiner of bullet wounds.

He has more face to face with dangerous critters than myself and many more like me put together (gross understatement). Therefore a big part of my plan to never get anyone into deep do-do includes never ignoring the PH's warnings in such matters.

I am always embarassed when I hear of some hunter from the USA telling an Africa PH what sort of equipment is best for African game.

When the PH tells me what type of bullets to use, I by George will bring them, plus extras to give to him as an over and above my cash tip. Just so happens my PH friend prefers other than X-type bullets and I respect that.

A number of other PHs I have had the pleasure of speaking with about bullets and such, also said they preferred other bullets. It sounded like they would however happily work for any paying client who insists on X-type bullets.

I'd say someone who has shot over a thousand buffalo, not to mention who knows how many of the other southern species, from elephant to name your favorite pygmy antelope, in his area might know what bullets I should bring for whatever I am booked to hunt.

On the other hand, if he wanted me to bring a Weatherby rifle with muzzle break and giant scope in extra high rings, I'd have to dummy up some excuse why I brought a Mauser with none of that stuff on it.

Uuuh, Elvis landed a space craft on my house and carried off my shiny rifle. Now darn it, I had to run out at the last minute and buy this silly old square bridge .404 Jeffery Mauser, or whatever.

Whitetails. Never shot one. They do remind me of common reedbok though.

Saeed does in fact more than meet the requirements of experience to be called an expert in shooting African game. If he were my PH, far be it from me to show up in his camp with anything but X-type bullets and with extra boxes of them to present to him as an extra tip.

As far as ignoring opinions and guidance of those persons who have valid experience, I ignore nothing of the sort. I just choose to take a number of experienced person's opinions and guidance, combined with my admittedly beginner's experiences as part of my big picture.

That seems to be what has gotten me into trouble with Saeed in the first place. I wish I had not mentioned in this forum that the PHs I have asked about bullets are not really diggin' on the X-type ones.

I feel like the guy who exclaimed something like: "The King's not wearing a new suit. He is just parading around in his underwear". Only with my luck, instead of the crowd joining in to admit what is obvious, the guards grab me and throw me in the dungeon.

Thank you for rescuing me by the way. I am grateful that you published your findings on this matter...I paraphrase: "We found the then available original X-bullet fail to open", etc., etc. "Most effective was the Swift A-Frame. I have used the Swift A-Frame exclusively since. I had used the Nosler Partition with good success on annual safari", etc., etc.

I for one will stand by for your experiment results on the TSX and add it to my growing base of information on the matter. I am especially interested in how the plastic tipped ones do on flesh and bone, hopefully to include seeing how they hold up to the magazine/repeated recoil issue as well as thick dried mud matted into animal hair. This is of course regarding warthog/buffalo and other wallowing rascals. Counsel, if I repeat your findings, will you object on the grounds of hearsay?

I am very curious of the .338-06 with 250 grain RNSP for antelope size critters, to include eland and waterbok size ones in the riverine/heavy forest type setting of Limpopo district. It seems to be a good one for it but I have no experience with it. The old .318 Westley-Richards was very similar ballistically, actually being a .333 bore by USA measurements. It had a marvelous reputation in Africa.

As far as hunting on private land, it is unfortunately all I can afford at this juncture. However, I have not hunted on any land that was being used to farm wild animals in the way I perceive you are referring to.

I've hunted one trip in Namibia on 96,000 acres of self sustaining game populations, as well as two trips to The RSA on I am not sure what size the parcels were as the PH leased about a dozen places and I could not keep them straight, nor did I ever see all of them. They were huge at any rate and I would easily get lost in any one of them that I visited, except perhaps his Highveld lease.

That one was rolling grassland above 7,000 feet in The Draakensburg Mts and even I could probably find my way out since one can see for miles up there. That particular one was not fenced at that time either.

Well, I suppose I have rambled on too long as it is, especially since I am beginner at the Africa thing. (Remind me to tell you of my 27 years living in Alaska sometime).

Over and out.
Ard

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
Superb performance of A-Frames in 375 H&H since Remington brought them to the market in the early 90's.

On my first safaris I made the mistake to take two different loads with me, one the A-Frame and the second handloads with Sierra 300 Gameking for "Antelopes". The Sierras were a disaster, they even failed to penetrate bushbock in ZW.
Since then only A-Frames for Softs.

In 416 Rigby/ 458 Lott I was pleased with Woodleighs and also A Square Solids.

Hello Jaegerfrank,

I am curious about the details regarding that 300 grain Sierra failing to penetrate the bushbok. My personal experience with Sierras has also indicated they are soft however, bushbok also have a reputation of being easy to terminate, compared to many other African antelope.
I do not doubt your word at all. I am just wanting to learn from the details.

Cheers.
Ard

Ard-

I am not interested in playing your silly games. And I have no interest in your 27 years in Alaska. This is the African Big Game Hunting forum, where adults discuss things African.

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Mr S. assures me that in his professional opinion these X-type bullets are not yet ready for prime time. In other words he feels they are still in the eXperimental stage.

Well, you can tell Mr. S that he is talking a load of bloody bullshit!

The Barnes X bullets, and other expanding bullets made of copper without any lead, as superior to ANY bullet that has lead in it.

+1

Abie DuPlooy has probably about as much experience as anyone as a PH and told me personally that the Barnes TSX is the best bullet he has ever used in his 35+ years of being a licensed PH, he likes them so much that he doesn't even bother with solids any longer.

Hello adrook,

Your point is clear and concise. I salute you for it. I only wish I could cut my wordiness down a bit. However, sometimes for me, it is more like: "Help, I'm typing and I can't stop".
Anywhooo, do you have any idea if your aforementioned favorite PH has experience with the plastic tipped TSX type Barnes bullets? It seems to me they would be a step in the right direction, especially for countering the reported magazine battering during recoil.
(Incidentally, the old fashioned RN bullets generally cancel this problem nicely in my feeble beginner's experience).
I have a retired California Game Warden friend that might one day ask me to hunt deer in the Coast Range again like we did back in the stone age. I will need to get a jump on these non lead bullets before that happens. I'd hate to go ripping around at the last minute trying to find one that worked well for me.
My only personal experience with copper alloy rifle bullets was when I tried 180 grain TSX in my .300 H&H at the rifle range. They were all over the place. So were those dreaded Winchester "Fail Safe" bullets in Winchester factory ammunition by the way.
Thanks.
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Mr S. assures me that in his professional opinion these X-type bullets are not yet ready for prime time. In other words he feels they are still in the eXperimental stage.

Well, you can tell Mr. S that he is talking a load of bloody bullshit!

The Barnes X bullets, and other expanding bullets made of copper without any lead, as superior to ANY bullet that has lead in it.

+1

Abie DuPlooy has probably about as much experience as anyone as a PH and told me personally that the Barnes TSX is the best bullet he has ever used in his 35+ years of being a licensed PH, he likes them so much that he doesn't even bother with solids any longer.

Hello adrook,

Your point is clear and concise. I salute you for it. I only wish I could cut my wordiness down a bit. However, sometimes for me, it is more like: "Help, I'm typing and I can't stop".
Anywhooo, do you have any idea if your aforementioned favorite PH has experience with the plastic tipped TSX type Barnes bullets? It seems to me they would be a step in the right direction, especially for countering the reported magazine battering during recoil.
(Incidentally, the old fashioned RN bullets generally cancel this problem nicely in my feeble beginner's experience).
I have a retired California Game Warden friend that might one day ask me to hunt deer in the Coast Range again like we did back in the stone age. I will need to get a jump on these non lead bullets before that happens. I'd hate to go ripping around at the last minute trying to find one that worked well for me.
My only personal experience with copper alloy rifle bullets was when I tried 180 grain TSX in my .300 H&H at the rifle range. They were all over the place. So were those dreaded Winchester "Fail Safe" bullets in Winchester factory ammunition by the way.
Thanks.
Ard.

Hi Ard,

I deleted my "Don't Feed the Trolls" smiley. Sorry for that, and welcome to the forums. I mistook wordiness for trollish behavior, my mistake.

Not sure about Abie using plastic tipped bullets, I'll ask him the next time that I talk to him. I know what you mean by "all over the place" with some monometal bullets. I tried and tried to get the old Barnes X bullets to shoot with no success, more like patterns than groups. Then came the TSXs. Speaking of the .300 H&H, I fired this 3-shot group with my .300 H&H and the 168gr TSX a couple of years ago.

Cheers,
Andy

One day SOON,I will get a hold of two big gelatine filled plastic drums(I Know where to get them) and shoot each with my 458 lott.I will shoot the first one with a 500gr A-frame and the second with a 500gr TSX.Obviously the one that damages the substance most is the most lethal.I am surprised such a test has yet to be done with all the experts on board.Does it take a troll to do the job? RIP,how about you giving us a REAL bullet test?