quote:

When the wild quail population here was terrible, I'd "hunt" them mainly for the dogs and "miss" just to give the breeding population a chance. I still went "hunting" in my mind.

You had all the makings in your favor but you simply chose not to kill your quarry - and hunting it was.
But .... if as you said, it was "mainly for the dogs" and you were working retrievers, your pooches were left high and dry.

So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

Catch and release is merely an act of sportsmanship on the part of the fisher and most often part of fishing regulations in certain areas and is recognized as a "kill"; some such areas will allow a brace for the belly and the rest to be released.

In competitive sports like tournaments, release is applied if the fish is estimated to be below the allowed weight but secures the max minimum points - should the estimated weight be greater than the permissible minimum, the fish is boated and photographed at the scales.

Trying to compare fishing to hunting is similar to a comparison between apples and oranges.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

Hunting and fishing ain't the same.

Killing is central to hunting.

I am going in 10 days to save conservancy. I will shoot an impala or two and then do a lot of stalks (if the ph can tolerate it) and take a lot of pictures.

Am I hunting ? Most likely not. But for me staking right up to the sticks and taking a picture beats killing another buffalo. I don't want to deal with dip pack shipping or taxidermy.

I rather have my own pictures on my wall than taxidermy.

Mike

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but just curious about opinions.

When the wild quail population here was terrible, I'd "hunt" them mainly for the dogs and "miss" just to give the breeding population a chance. I still went "hunting" in my mind.

Similar to me deer hunting with Admiral/subsailor74.

I know a a few guys who just like being in deer camp or in a deer stand.

I personally think corralling elephants at night out of fields is often more risky than hunting then, transporting plains game can be risky, problem animal control of lions - drugging then back into conservancies can be as or more dangerous than hunting them.

Most of these are often done by same professionals who conduct hunts.

Also with dangerous game there is an additional element of risk - normally buff don't come at you for talking a picture

Mike

True, although I have not personally experienced such. I have seen it on the shows and it reminded me of my rodeo days.

Cheers.

Of course it is a real hunt. If you spend two weeks stalking a buffalo, working hard, and never get a shot you've still had a real hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

When the wild quail population here was terrible, I'd "hunt" them mainly for the dogs and "miss" just to give the breeding population a chance. I still went "hunting" in my mind.

You had all the makings in your favor but you simply chose not to kill your quarry - and hunting it was.
But .... if as you said, it was "mainly for the dogs" and you were working retrievers, your pooches were left high and dry.

Yes sir, however the German shorthairs did their job and were ready when the population was sustainable.

quote:

Originally posted by walking buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ok, I guess I'm out of the closet now. I hate the killing of anything. I'm actually a mole for the antis.

I've collected extensive files on all you bad men. I'm going to go turn this stuff in to Pita.

No point in continuing a discussion with closed minds, whom want to attach motive to the simple act of darting a Rhino?

I have to agree. It's tough to have a discussion when someone asks a question then has a tantrum when they don't like the answer.


A closed mind will not see the importance of maintaining a clear and concise definition of "hunting". Take "Trophy Hunting" as a current example. People that don't understand what Trophy Hunting really means have skewed the general public's understanding of these words to the detriment of hunting.

Without giving an opinion on the ethics, excitement or danger of darting a rhino, it is Not hunting.

Well said.

Unless they are a biologist and doing some kind of work I can't see why anyone would really want to dart anything especially if they had to pay to do it.As far as calling it hunting it seems that some people are confused about everything-usually the same posters trying to be looked at as more sophisticated than the rest of us.

I did one for a Cape buffalo. It certainly was an interesting experience. My PH for this was Phillip Du Plessis, who posts on here occasionally.

I have always thought, that if a person wanted to say they have 'gotten' the Big 5 ... wouldn't it work just as well to sneak up to the old white rhino bull and whack him in the shoulder with a paint gun ... no stress except maybe your nerves a bit ...

Sort of counting coup ...

Just a thought ...

quote:

Originally posted by walking buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by walking buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ok, I guess I'm out of the closet now. I hate the killing of anything. I'm actually a mole for the antis.

I've collected extensive files on all you bad men. I'm going to go turn this stuff in to Pita.

No point in continuing a discussion with closed minds, whom want to attach motive to the simple act of darting a Rhino?

I have to agree. It's tough to have a discussion when someone asks a question then has a tantrum when they don't like the answer.


A closed mind will not see the importance of maintaining a clear and concise definition of "hunting". Take "Trophy Hunting" as a current example. People that don't understand what Trophy Hunting really means have skewed the general public's understanding of these words to the detriment of hunting.

Without giving an opinion on the ethics, excitement or danger of darting a rhino, it is Not hunting.

Lets just agree to disagree. May I point out the smiley face in my quote?

No problem with disagreeing, but shutting down a conversation 'cause you don't like the other's opinion is a bit too liberal for my taste.


I answered your question, would really like to hear your answer the one I asked earlier.

"If a person Only pursues animals in a non-lethal manner, is this person a Hunter?"

Ok, fair enough. Here's why I lost interest in this "conversation". First, JCS271 made a statement applying motive to my green hunt as wanting to brag about my Big 5.

Then your first comment was also insinuating that I don't want to kill something.

Both of those comments, to me are applying motives that don't exist.

First, I would venture to guess that I have killed as many of more animals than have 99.99 percent of this forum. Second as to "bragging" as JCS said, I challenge you to find bragging type hero shots of me on this site.

Now, to your question. I am a trophy hunter, pure and simple. I hunt for; experience, passion, hobby and yes, to achieve a trophy to be displayed in my trophy room.

My definition of trophy, Some reasonable momento from the animal, whether it is a full mount, shoulder mount, backskin, skull, european mount.

There are many many people who will admit they hunt for simply the experience. For me, I put the value of a life, any life, at more than that of a few megapixels on a camera card.If thats the level of interest, I just assume take its picture.

So that said, if someone hunts for the experience, why isn't a green hunt a viable option? When I did mine, it was right smack dab in the middle of the full scale upswing in the Rhino conservation story. The shooting of a Rhino was prohibitively high (for me).

I will still defend the difficulty and the challenge of my experience as pure. It was hunting. I would be curious as to how many people whom say it ISN'T hunting have actually done one?

If it still isn't hunting, I would be curious as to how you feel about a put and take game ranch in RSA? of hunting off a truck? Or even further render it down to is it hunting when you (or I) follow a bunch of trackers and a PH around until they simply point and say...."shoot that"

I will not decide for you, how when or why you hunt what, where and how you hunt, I only care the we all can continue TO hunt and pursue our rich heritage of the outdoors and the shooting sports.

So, maybe this sis how I should have responded earlier, but from where I sit, I saw it as two separate and unnecessary remarks at my motives and or desire to kill.

If you really want a peek into my soul. Go buy volume 8 of "Great Hunter and Their Trophy Rooms and Collections". THAT will give you texture and context into me, why I hunt and what I've accomplished in the field. Yes, I'm proud of it and won't apologize for any part of it.

Regards,

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

Catch and release is merely an act of sportsmanship on the part of the fisher and most often part of fishing regulations in certain areas and is recognized as a "kill"; some such areas will allow a brace for the belly and the rest to be released.

In competitive sports like tournaments, release is applied if the fish is estimated to be below the allowed weight but secures the max minimum points - should the estimated weight be greater than the permissible minimum, the fish is boated and photographed at the scales.

Trying to compare fishing to hunting is similar to a comparison between apples and oranges.

Hi Fulvio.

Mike (Baretta682) was on one of my Amazon trips last year. He saw first hand the struggles we as a group of 8 anglers had with catch and release of one of the iconic species of Amazon giant catfish. (Piraiba) The group that was there prior, had a good trip and the Piraiba were cooperating.

Unfortunately, the drier than average conditions were not allowing the normal in-flow of cooler rain water. The increased water temp were killing several of the released fish from the week prior. We found three dead fish floating. Our Indian guide were concerned but since none of the fish caught from our week were dying, we continued on.

Middle day three, my boat partner and I found one that I had caught myself, also dead. We had an immediate meeting with the outfitter, who just happen to be on our week.

We ALL as a group decided to STOP fishing for this species. As the week progressed, there were two more caught while fishing for other species.

Point is, are we not still fishermen, even though we chose conservation over sport? Yes, I was heartbroken to not be able to continue my pursuit of Piraiba. Mike will tell, you my passion and aim on these trip is just for two species, Giant Piraiba and Giant Redtails.

I would equate this to a green hunt, the species can't/couldnt handle high numbers of sport hunting. Darting was a good option for me.

Honestly, If the Big 5 didn't have Rhino on it, would I still have done it? Cant say.

Definition of the word Hunting from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of hunting : the act of one that hunts; specifically : the pursuit of game

Hunting does NOT have to include "Killing".

Children at Easter, "Hunt" easter eggs.

While some want to use a LITERAL definition there is a larger definition which is basically the PURSUIT of something.

How many on here have went JOB HUNTING/House Hunting. As for the comments trying to separate hunting and fishing the two activities are a lot more closely related than some choose to believe.

In fishing, just as in hunting you have to hunt for a place to fish that has the right habitat for the type fish you want to catch. You have to be aware of the right time of day to fish to increase your chances of success. I have been a hunter/fisherman for over 50 years and I find that the two activities, at least in the way I participate in them are more similar, than different.

I have done regular hunts for White Rhino and 1 Green hunt for White Rhino and the Green hunt was in every respect a real hunt. Definitely more challenging than some of the regular hunts. You have to get close and shot placement is as critical as when hunting with a regular rifle. As PH you have to be on your toes

Call me soft but I did enjoy watching that Rhino wake up and run off. There was something special about that

It is no replacement for regular hunting,but in Rhino conservation it most definitely has its place and its every bit a hunt and worth the experience and adventure

{Quote The popcorn is for you, you are obviously an observer in life, not a participant. This is the kind of un-called for comment that Randall (Crazyhorseconsulting) always refers to. It add nothing and only is divisive. I won't defend darting/killing/ anything I've ever done. If you choose to go hunt a Griz with a switch, good for you as I have exactly zero skin in your game.[/QUOTE]

No need to get testy, the question was "is a green hunt a hunt", you explained why you think it is, I pointed out why I think its not. I still have not read an explanation of why you would want or need to tranquilize the animal (and risk its unintentional death) unless it was simply to pose for a hunting photo and "qualify" it as a trophy with some organization. In your first post of this thread you stated "I did one in 2006 to complete the Big 5" so we were all left to assume you did it for the bragging rights of hunting the big 5. If those are not your reasons, then why not just sneak up close and take some photographs? As a humble observer of life not an actual participant, I still don't understand.

The definition of Hunting as defined for the actions of pursuing animals is more concise than your chosen version.

Hunt - pursue and kill (a wild animal) for sport or food.


To "Hunt" there must be both a Wild animal and an intent to kill it.

Anything else is a bastardization.

There is a legal importance in nearly all jurisdictions to this specific definition.


Do you typically need a hunting licence to pursue wild animals if you have no intention to kill it?


This is not a debate on similarities between various activities, this is about whether or not pursuing animals with no intention of killing them is defined as Hunting.

I notice how no one has answered the question I asked earlier. I suspect Steve and others are reluctant as it is hard to maintain their opinion while answering honestly.

"If a person Only pursues animals in a non-lethal manner, is this person a Hunter?"

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Definition of the word Hunting from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of hunting : the act of one that hunts; specifically : the pursuit of game

Hunting does NOT have to include "Killing".

Children at Easter, "Hunt" easter eggs.

While some want to use a LITERAL definition there is a larger definition which is basically the PURSUIT of something.

How many on here have went JOB HUNTING/House Hunting. As for the comments trying to separate hunting and fishing the two activities are a lot more closely related than some choose to believe.

In fishing, just as in hunting you have to hunt for a place to fish that has the right habitat for the type fish you want to catch. You have to be aware of the right time of day to fish to increase your chances of success. I have been a hunter/fisherman for over 50 years and I find that the two activities, at least in the way I participate in them are more similar, than different.

Darting only occurs on farms where we call other dangerous game hunts, "canned"!

.

Well, seems like a lively debate following the question of whether a green hunt is a hunt!

My opinion -

I am a passionate angler ( salt and fresh water ). I have caught 37 marlin and tagged and released 36 of them. One, ironically my first, was tail wrapped and sadly drowned. Some were worthy of mounting but that never crossed my mind. Fresh water fish - trout, tigers etc - I will always release them if I can. Without any doubt it's fishing and nobody could convince me it is not.

Wingshooting, whether put and take pheasant in the UK or greywing in RSA, is game shooting or upland hunting to use the USA term.

Now a green hunt on an animal - let's stick with the rhino. Following some of the logic on here an animal must die for it to be a hunt. So if the darted rhino for whatever reason does not come around from the drug and dies then it qualifies as a hunt! But I doubt there would be photo smiles.

In my view it is a hunt. You plan a strategy, you go into the bush or veld looking for rhino or one particular rhino. You find him. You stalk him and you get in close enough (closer than a rifle perhaps) for a dart shot and if well done you have a downed rhino. I'll leave out the discussions that the bull can be resold and score a mint etc as that was not my initial question on the ethics of reselling hunted animals.

No blood is spilt. You have "taken" an animal which is what you set out to do - for whatever reason conservation, budget etcetera.

I see it as hunting. And who knows, maybe in 50 or 75 years green hunts will be the only types of hunt that can be done and not just for rhino. But maybe that's a debate for another time.

.

I think I would do it before saying it is not a hunt.

I got questioned on hunting leopards with dogs saying that was not really hunting and that it was too easy.... not so. We spent a lot of time and energy over 2 weeks to get on two cats. It was a great deal of fun and a hunt.

I had a similar experience on cougar in BC. We hunted hard and only treed one female. We took pictures and left. No shots fired on cougars. It was still a hunt.

I have slapped a Rhino on the ass while on the buggy one time. Does that count towards my big five? I do not think that is any different than shooting one with a rubber arrow or darting. I do not hunt for my personal ego but hunt because I love the sport. It is all about the science, understanding the migration and deciphering feeding and breeding patterns. Killing is much different than hunting. I saw two guys murder 15 animals in two days once on a game farm in RSA. That was not hunting! These guys had the no one left any buffalo for me approach and were out for blood. I release quail on my farm year round. I no longer hunt any of the wild coveys. When I was a kid there were thousands of wild birds on our land. Not the case anymore and if it were not for released birds I would get rid of all of my bird dogs and horses.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It might be fun, but it certainly cannot be classified as a HUNT!

Call it anything you like, but a HUNT it certainly is not.

And exactly why is that?

I'll add, if people whom claim to hunt for the experience, not the trophy, why wouldn't a green hunt be hunting.

Further I'll agree with Mike, if an unsuccessful hunt, is a hunt, what is a successful green hunt?

I've been on a lot of hunts where I came home empty, never firing a shot, so as others are concerned that was not a "HUNT" it seems. There is a large difference, in my opinion, between a hunt and a kill. The word "HUNT" means a search for anything, while a "kill" doesn't mean anything but means a kill whether it is done in a bar, on the streets of a city, or in a slaughter house, or from the back of a hunting car. What a HUNT to me means is finding an animal and getting in close enough to KILL it if I choose, or turn it down and take a picture of the animal. In other words finding the animal I want, and outsmarting him well enough to get as close as I can to kill or take a picture, but either way it ends I still consider that a HUNT!

If one disagrees with any aspect of an experience in the field by others, I say don't do it yourself, and leave others to their way, as long as the activity is legal according to the game laws!

.......................................................................

quote:

I've been on a lot of hunts where I came home empty, never firing a shot, so as others are concerned that was not a "HUNT" it seems. There is a large difference, in my opinion, between a hunt and a kill. The word "HUNT" means a search for anything, while a "kill" doesn't mean anything but means a kill whether it is done in a bar, on the streets of a city, or in a slaughter house, or from the back of a hunting car. What a HUNT to me means is finding an animal and getting in close enough to KILL it if I choose, or turn it down and take a picture of the animal. In other words finding the animal I want, and outsmarting him well enough to get as close as I can to kill or take a picture, but either way it ends I still consider that a HUNT!

If one disagrees with any aspect of an experience in the field by others, I say don't do it yourself, and leave others to their way, as long as the activity is legal according to the game laws!

.......................................................................

Mac, I totally agree with you EXCEPT where the "hunt" is presented to us as having being done to complete the harvest of the Big 5, the other four of which were killed.

So the only way an activity can be referred to as a "HUNT", is when an animal is killed?

This thread reminds me of the gay marriage debate.How certain people feel that "marriage" should not only be between two members of the opposite sex.It is in the same way that the meaning of hunting is being liberalized.

As often happens on AR, this discussion has gone off the rails, or more accurately, it's been run off the rails.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all about intent. If I don't intend to kill my quarry, then I'm not hunting it. I'm doing something else.

That is not to say that I kill my quarry every time I go hunting.

But as long as I have lethal intent, I am hunting.

YMMV.

So when you have gone out and NOT found something you wanted or chose to kill it wasn't a hunt?

What about the times you saw an animal you wanted to shoot but were unable to get a shot at?

That wasn't a hunt?

So in your opinion it is only a hunt when something is killed?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
So when you have gone out and NOT found something you wanted or chose to kill it wasn't a hunt?

What about the times you saw an animal you wanted to shoot but were unable to get a shot at?

That wasn't a hunt?

So in your opinion it is only a hunt when something is killed?

No offense, but can you read? English?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
It seems to me to have all the elements of any other hunt. Certainly all the danger is involved. You even get to walk up to the downed beast for a close look and a pat.

I'm not sure how humane repeatedly putting a rhino to sleep is, or how many times it happens to a particular specimen. Does Fido earn a retirement after a certain number of injections? Can a rhino become an addict and will he experience hallucinatory flashbacks? If darted too many times will it make the game wary and coy or will it rile him up and make him want to charge the evil dart throwers?

Still, it sounds fun as long as the price is commensurate with the amount of meat you get to take home.

Each rhino can only be darted a couple - to a few times per year, for safety reasons of the animal. They're not darting "fido" once a week.

Not to say a white rhino can't be dangerous, but I think the likelihood of a "real" charge is pretty slim.

After I got home, I looked on the companies website I darted mine at. It was pictured darted a bunch of times and killed not long after my green hunt by a guy that wanted to kill one.

I think the name of the company was/is Unico Hunting?

That could be Steve! The vets / outfitters I was with on a couple of occasions all told me the same thing. Its dangerous for the animal if you dart them more than just a few times per year?

I can read English quite well, can YOU understand INTENT??????

You go out with the INTENT to kill something! You do not FIND ANYTHING to kill, but THAT was a HUNT!

Another person goes out with the INTENT to Dart an animal, and IS successful, but that was NOT a HUNT?

Please explain the ACTUAL DIFFERENCE, other that in one instance an animal was killed and in the other the animal was revived and walked away.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
So the only way an activity can be referred to as a "HUNT", is when an animal is killed?

Of course not. My only argument against any of this being called a hunt is when people try and​ argue the point that tranquilizing a rhinoceros is the same as shooting and killing the other 4 Dangerous Game species just so they can claim to having taken all five. nothing more nothing less.

But can't others view things differently????

What is "Killed" when you "Hunt" for a new vehicle or home?

Is the purchase a kill?

Maybe a better way to put it, might be this! Like I said earlier - I have been on 2 "green" hunts, and 1 kill hunt (all white rhinos only) and have been around numerous other white rhinos too.

Calling a white rhino "kill" on a SA game farm, a HUNT, is like calling a canned lion shoot - a hunt! Neither are hunts, not even close - they are simply shoots, period!!!! I have ZERO problem with that obviously, but lets call it what it is - if we are insistent on putting labels on it.

So what's the difference between darting one, and killing one - with the exception of tens of thousands of dollars. Killing (Hunting) a white rhino is as difficult as picking up your latte at Starbucks. If one must "kill / draw blood" to be considered a hunter or hunting, that's fine of course - but there's no "HUNTING SKILL" involved in a white rhino shoot.

I understand perfectly how some could think the "green" hunt of a white rhino is not a hunt, but neither is the killing of one on a SA game farm either. I was offered a dart hunt in 2004 for $4,000. I was offered to kill the same exact rhino for $40,000! Doing so would have taken about 15 minutes, and most of that would have been getting loaded up in the truck. I chose to save the $36k in that case, and had a lot more fun in doing so. It was windy that day, so we needed to get under 20 yards to dart him. Getting under 75 yards was obviously simple - it was getting under 20 yards that was the real fun part.

When we killed one - we simply walked around a bit, oh look - there he is. Bang, bang, bang, he's dead! Now lets go have brunch - the boys will take care of him. But hey, we killed him - so we were obviously "hunting" right? Come on guys!

Man, how does such a discussion go south? Who gives a damn what you call it? Just go do it how you want to - and have fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson Man, how does such a discussion go south? Who gives a damn what you call it? Just go do it how you want to - and have fun!

Actually we are totally on topic of "is a green hunt a real hunt"?
Quite a variety of opinions I would say.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson Man, how does such a discussion go south? Who gives a damn what you call it? Just go do it how you want to - and have fun!

That works for me, regardless of where it takes place or the species involved.

If I go out after a pig or deer and make a kill that was a hunt.

If I go out after a pig or deer and decide NOT to take a shot was that a hunt? How really different is that, than Darting something, taking pictures and watching the animal revive and run off?

If I go out and take a shot and for whatever reason I am unable to recover the animal, was that a hunt?

Like it or not, we are judged by our peers on this site, sometimes I feel, the judgements are a little harsh.

It is the last two sentences in the quote above that I operate under.

I have been on a lion dart once.

I would never call it a hunt.

The intention was to dart a lion, and we did.

It was a "lion dart".

Not a "lion hunt".

Saeed, when do hunters as a group stop throwing out lines of division?

Just because you do not view an activity as not being hunt, does that mean the person doing it should not view it as a hunt?

Does that also equate into someone that has never hunted in Africa is not really a hunter?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Saeed, when do hunters as a group stop throwing out lines of division?

Just because you do not view an activity as not being hunt, does that mean the person doing it should not view it as a hunt?

Does that also equate into someone that has never hunted in Africa is not really a hunter?

As far as I am concerned, there is no lines of division here at all.

It is just calling things as they are.

To me, a hunt is where one intends to search for and kill an animal.

Whether he actually ends up killing one is immaterial, it is still a hunt.

When one goes darting, it should be called that, it is not a hunt.

Just call what you do by its proper name.

Like some tends to say they "harvest" an animal.

One harvests fruits and vegetables.

Animals are neither of these as far as I know.

I would not go as far as saying the same thing about certain people though

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

As far as I'm concerned, it's all about intent. If I don't intend to kill my quarry, then I'm not hunting it. I'm doing something else.

That is not to say that I kill my quarry every time I go hunting.

But as long as I have lethal intent, I am hunting.

YMMV.

quote:

As far as I am concerned, there is no lines of division here at all.

Just because an individual refuses to open their eyes and minds to a concept, does not mean it does not exist.

Such as the concepts of Ethics.

One person believes that shooting an animal at a water hole is unethical and anyone that does such is not a "Real Hunter".

How many believe that someone that has never hunted Africa is not a "Real" hunter?

People hunting for a new home or new job, are not killing anything, yet they are hunting.

From what I am seeing in this conversation, is that those that have darted an animal, view it the same or even more of a hunt, than had the goal been to kill the animal.

As long as someone/anyone draws a line of division simply over the choice of wording another Hunter uses to describe a Hunt, things will never reach a point where hunters can present a united front against the forces that want to end hunting.

As a kid growing up in KY, I did a lot of "green hunting".

The result: parboil the legs with a dash of lemon juice, and then dip in egg and roll in cracker crumbs. Fry until done. Best dang frog legs ever!

BH63