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| One of Us |
Where do you believe one stops being a hunting rifle and starts being a stopping rifle? I would imagine there are a lot of opinions on this but would still appreciate the comments from all of the experienced hunters on this one. Thanks, jfm | ||
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A 470NE is a great stopping rifle but its also great fun hunting with it too. It's a great Fox caliber. | |||
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Whatever hunting rifle you use, it should be able to stop whatever animal you are after if he decides to even up the score. | |||
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Stopping rifles are hunting rifles, it's the reverse that doesn't apply.(If we are talking about dangerous game) Despite my fondness for the .375 H&H, I guess a true stopper is something that launches a bullet of around 500 grains in the vicinity of 2100 fps. I would say that is the "ball park" yardstick for starters. That's a crude assessment, don't want to get caught up with RN,FN,SP,SD,BC,ME,FMJ......... Then again any bullet that hits the brain is almost certainly a stopper. I think I'll STOP now, it just got too hard!!  | |||
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IMO the 416 is the divide. According to Richard Harland a DG hunter only needs an "attack rifle", his PH a "defense rifle". ............as long as the PH is competent and by no means a night drinker.  J B de Runz Be careful when blindly following the masses ... generally the "m" is silent | |||
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agree 100% saeed. where the line is is simply discussion ... i think if you simply said the "big bores " can all be considered stoppers , then the question is , what is a big bore ... in my opinion , anything over .400 can be considered a stopper... "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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It is quite simple: anything 5000 ft-lbs or over and a 400 gr. or bigger bullet. Wait! That's what Taylor said, and I've seen nothing to prove differently. As a friend of mine said "If I had to do it all over again, I'd use my 416 Taylor and never look back." ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I think there is everything else, including buff and hippo, and then there is elephant. I also think you are not well armed for dangerous game unless you are carrying a stopping rifle of appropriate caliber for the game being hunted. The first few times a bull elephant stared my way at close range, my .375 H&H Mag. suddenly seemed way too small. Next time I had a .458 Lott and felt a little better. Next time I had a .500 A-Square and felt even a little better still. I am sticking with my .500 A-Square for elephant. I feel well armed for elephant with that rifle. For the other dangerous game, I feel well armed for lion and leopard with a .375 or a .416, well armed for buff and hippo with a .416 or a .458 Lott. Not to say that bigger might not be better for any of them, of course! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Shocking! We're supposed to believe that you have friends?  SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Stopping rifles IMO start with the 450/400 using the 400 grain bullet. It is a marginal stopper but as Boddington once said. "It's on the right side of the margin." By the way Pondoro also agreed with it. 465H&H | |||
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My 416 rigby is a stopper,,, on both ends of the rifle! you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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Generally you need a 45 caliber bullet and about 500 grains in order to turn a charging elephant with a missed brain shot. That puts the 416, 404, etc in the class of hunting cartridges, and the 458 Lott, 470 NE, 500 NE, etc in the class of stopping cartridges. | |||
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Usually carried a 9,3x62 as a hunting rifle and reached for a .404 or similar if there was something nasty in thick cover. Have never had to use the bigger rifle though. For a client coming out hunting, a .375 is a perfect round. It will stop anything with decent shot placement- the cevat is that you have enough open ground to make that reasonable shot. (ie visability of 10 yards or better IMHO) | |||
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40 caliber or larger with 400 grain bullets and 4,000 ft lbs of energy: Stopping/hunting caliber for buff,hippo,bear,in other words anything BUT bull elephant in the thick stuff. 45 caliber or larger with 500 grain bullets and 5,000ft lbs of energy: Stopping/hunting caliber for everything on the planet including bull elephant. Dirk "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Will, One problem with your "imaginary"  friend's advice regarding the 416 Taylor....it does not meet the 5,000ft-lbs standard that you and Mr. Taylor propose.PS..Edit: I think Dirk's "double standard" makes perfect sense  DRSS & Bolt Action Trash | |||
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Stopping rifles, energy figures, and a host of other things are just conversation to entertain IMO... Within reasonable expectations, a "stopping rifle" is a properly constructed bullet in the right spot...A hunting rifle is a properly constructed bullet in the right spot.. Anything from a 9.3x62 on up qualifies with me. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ooooh, you are quoting numbers to me!! Actually the 400 gr. bullet going 2400 fps gives 5115.680092 ft-lbs. The 416 Rem, Taylor, Rigby, etc. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Okay, so it is a rather loose, distant, and somewhat casual friendship! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Ray, I would have to disagree with that one. A 9.3x62 is not a stopper in any stretch of the imagination! Whatever. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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| Administrator |
A hit in the right place with a 9.3x62 is infinitely better than a near miss with a 460 Weatherby  | |||
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Definitely agree Saeed, I've always hunted with calibers for elk, black bears and grizzly that were considered on the light side (270). I shoot my 270 real well and take care with my shots. Though the thing that is most detrimental to my offhand shooting with my CZ 550 in 375 H&H is the weight of the thing and that fact that the balance is too far forward. (CZ uses the same barrel contour for the 375 H&H as their 458 Lott). I probably need to work out more lol, so anyway boring it out and shortening the barrel should make it more shootable. I'll adjust to the recoil. Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Absolutely true, but not the full story! I would add that the rifle you carry should not only be capable of stopping what you are hunting, but anything you might stumble onto while hunting the animal you are actually hunting! When in dangerous game country, use an DGR rifle. This statement is not simply an opinion, but the result of an occasion that proved this to me in a very big way! 
Chuck, the above statement is true to the extent that you have the opertunity to take great care with your shots! Some times the animal you are trying to stop, sets the sceenario, so that you have to take the shot given, and in a damn hurry! In this case, you 270 may be a bit light! 
Not to say I know more than Richard Harland, but I do disagree with the common statement that the client should only be armed with an attack rifle,while hunting dangerous game, relying on his PH to drag his nuts out of the fire, if things go South. IMO, a hunter that is hunting dangerous game should be able to use a stopping rifle, and be armed so that he can drag a PH out from under a big Cape buffalo, or stop an elephant who has taken exception to the PH's presence in his space. Dangerous game dosen't always charge the client, but sometimes get to the PH, before he can take "GREAT CARE" with "HIS SHOTS!" A stopping rifle is a hunting rifle in gangerous game fields, IMO!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Well once again I guess we AR members will not be able to agree on anything! | |||
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But we have fun disagreeing!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Gee, I thought the 45-70 crowd would be here to make stopper claims for their Guide Guns and Garrett cartridges. Why it says right on the box they're good for elephant, rhino, and hippo . | |||
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My 416 Rem Mag with 410 grain solids seems to be a hunting and a stopping gun. But, I would agree that my PH carrying the 500 NE is probably better suited to "stop" something. But, if you shoot and everything stops it doesn't really matter, does it? I live by the "nur ein schuss" principle, concentrate on that first pull of the trigger and everything else will fall into place and take care of you! It's a "German/zen" thing. Dr. Tim | |||
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Several of you have made valid points. I have always followed what Mac said about being able to stop what ever you run into. That is why I have always hunted plains game with my 9,3x74R double rifle and always have sevefal solids with me. {I have always hunted in elephant country]. While I do not consider a 9,3 or a 375 a stopping rifle" I do know that with solids I could brain an elephant. [I have brained an elephant with my 9,3 at five yards]. And if you can brain an elephant, you can brain anything. And my feeling is that in a crunch a brain shot is the only shot that is GUARENTEED to save your bacon. Now if specirically hunting elephants I would want, a 40 cal of some type, I prefer a double, and I have used a 40cal/400gr bullet at @2200fps. to take bull elephant and cape buff. For a person doing a lot of elephant hunting I would recommend a 450 bore with a 450gr FP at @2200fps or a 500gr bullet at @2125fps. It is nice to have a rifle that you "think" will turn, or knock out and elephant, with a less than perfect brain hit, but I would recommend you might want to give up a litle power for more controlability/shootability. If you cannot handle your elephant gun like a 22, you need to practice more, or maybe get a rifle that kicks less. I have no fear hunting elephants, cape buff lion, etc with a 450/400 double. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Will, I mean no disrespect here. You have more experience than I, however, who are you to tell people like Ray Atkinson, Ganyana or Saeed that they are wrong in their selection of stopping calibers? They've seen and done what they say they've seen and done. I believe that whole heartedly and do not believe you are correct in your assumptions. Are they liars? You appear to be omniscient and omnipotent in your posts but I doubt that you have their collective experience. Sorry, but I'll take their word over yours. Thanks, jfm | |||
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And really sorry you might be someday. Many of the comments above include those that haven't, and especially those that have never faced a charge. Having a gun capable of killing an elephant, or whatever, is quite irrelevant. The point is a stopping rifle is one of sufficient energy and momentum to turn an elephant, which is probably easier than turning a buffalo. I have never had to turn a buff but just from actual, real life reports they are usually "unturnable" as opposed to usually "turnable" as is an elephant. But you are free to believe anything you want. My elephant experiences aside, if you go back and search for Head Trauma's report on his first elephant hunt, it serves as a case in point. The cow charged from close range and the large caliber from both his and the PH failed to find the brain (not atypical) but they knocked the cow down, which is just going to be just the more unlikely happening as the cartridges shrink in size. It is never a sure thing to hit the brain in a charge and it is never a sure thing to turn an elephant. One must use a big bore if you at least want a fighting chance of turning an elephant, or any DG, which is what happened for the first 50 years of the last century by the professionals elephant hunters and carries on today by every PH that I know of. People can deny reality and ignore history but that doesn't mean it isn't reality. That's why Saeed's PH carries a 460 Weatherby and not a 270! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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JFM: Ray is old. When you get old, you try and tell yourself that the lighter rifles are as good as the heavier for stopping, because you don't want to admit your mortality. Ray has often said the .416's are his favorite, since he can't shoot the 458's from a variety of positions. Ganyana was injured, and, I suspect, is probably one of the better shots around, but, his shoulder won't handle a ton of recoil, so he makes shot placement work, rather then stopping power. Old smart guys can do that. I think Ray does that as well, but, you do get to that point of one too many bourbons at the fireside, and, the memory starts to go...  Now, we can start on Saeed. I hate to tell you, but you are comparing what works for him to yourself, is like comparing Cassius Clay, in his prime to me. Saeed's little brother is Olympic trap Gold medalist, and, I suspect he doesn't win many against big brother. Think Karamojo Bell type shooting. So, you say they've seen and done...Questions are does Ray remember it? What Ganyana and Saeed can do, you can't, so how does it apply to you? Just remember, most old elephant hunters are that because of Grace of God, or animal, not some ability they have. Bell was lucky, as well as good. One of the things they forget to tell you: When you knock that buffalo down, he'll get RIGHT backup, and, you better shoot better with the next barrel, or round... | |||
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Just when I was thinking that rechambering my rifle to 470 Capstick might be a little light on stopping power and I was looking at the 475 A&M I found this quote: "donald j haarmann ----------------------- "Around 1960, Fred Barnes built himself a 475 A&M-chambered rifle, based upon a sporterized Enfield action. ... that rifle weighed no more than 8 pounds. ... his initial handloading combined stiff charges of IMR 3031 behind his 600-grain bullets. His friends and a small group of well-wishers went to an informal shooting range... Fred sat down... [in a] sitting position. He took dead aim at a the base of a small juniper tree, which was tenuously hanging on at the top edge of a roadway cutbank. "When Fred pulled the trigger, everyone was watching for the impact. The shot went low. The tree was summarily uprooted! ... then as a group, they looked around to find what Barn's reaction might be. There he was, located several feet behind his original position lying on his back, arms out stretched, holding his rifle above his head. Dust from the muzzle blast and his ignoble recoil-induced slide (he had absorbed well over 110 foot-pounds of energy) was still stirring when Fred asked, matter-of-factly, "Anybody want to buy a rifle?" He found no takers." F Barnes. Cartridges of the World 10th Edition" Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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What this proves is, mistakes are made on both ends of the ballistics spread. Not all make the mistake of useing to small a rifle, some err on the side that uses shore batteries as well! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Some people can be so cruel. | |||
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Thanks Mate!! This one's on me...  | |||
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Hey Fella, you have impeccable taste in beer. That's one of my favorites, a bit like a marriage between a stout and a good lager. Hope there's lots of it available in your part of the world. I'll think of you when I have one or ten this evening. | |||
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Great minds think alike!! | |||
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I bet it will "Knock the Stuffings" out of these "Dangerous Game Animals"  Too Funny Mac!  "That's not a knife..THIS is a KNIFE" ! | |||
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I'd use those 45-70 loads on a Dangerous Stuffed Thanksgiving Turkey. Pichon - this is the only real Aussie beer I can get locally...  | |||
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