PG

I am looking at the situation from a practical point of view. One would be prudent to look at both sides of a coin before giving it a toss. That was the intent of my posts. Sorry you got the wrong idea. I was not choosing sides nor was I advocating pacificism. As stated above I am habitually armed while in public. And the weight of the Sig 220 is not there to counterbalance a limp. I am with you 100% on the right to self defense. Just wanted to give a little info on what one might encounter while poking about in an african city.

PG,

I'm sorry if I expressed myself poorly, leading you to think I'm advising to rely upon the "humanity and decency" of the criminals, or pacifism! My point is that not all the readers here are aware of the many shades of grey when it comes to wandering in african citys, and the consquences of lethal selfdefence in such countrys. It's definatly not just black or white (no pun intended!). As I mentioned previously, travelling through 20 african countrys as we did, bringing a gun was an impossible option. But I didn't say I we were defenceless! We had Cap-Stun spray with us, in small, pocket sized versions plus 1 "crowd control" Cap-Stun grenade incase things got out of hand with us in the car surrounded by a crowd out for blood (this scenerio was totally unlikely in east/southern africa, but was possible in more northern regions due to world politics). All of them were camouflaged by spraypainting them white, and re-labling them as "oil spray" bottles. This is non-lethal stuff (used by the military), but will take down pretty much anything that breaths...

Still, I stick to saying that complying with a group of thugs that want your money and then to be off, might be a better option in some cases. But by no means all!

Hope this makes my way of thinking, and previous posts about this matter clearer!

Erik D.

475Guy:

Whatever two legged critters you're referring to - they will have killed you before you knew they were there.The African bush has a lot of interesting types but usually no one is trying to kill you. Anyway, your outfitter and certainly your PH don't intend to have a client killed.(It's bad for business) As a native New Yorker I felt safer in the African bush from any two legged predators than I would have felt in our Central Park. In the cities? - As a New Yorker, I have seen a thousand out of towners who ignore advice and insist on going into bad areas of town. Yeah, you would need a piece in those areas - but isn't it simpler to follow the advice of the locals and then be able to leave the piece at home? I don't want to sneer at you and I really do understand the feeling of comfort that a piece you know how to use can give - but take it from someone who has carried and kept a handgun around - it really is an unnecessary weight on the belt in Africa.

500grains:

As a native New Yorker, I rise to the defense of my home town! I just posted telling someone to stay out of bad areas of town. You're not supposed to stay out of town completely! Honestly, we do have a pretty nice city in many ways and it would be my pleasure to show some of our nicer areas and sights to you and your lady some time if you decide to pay a visit to New York. (Seriously, you are absolutely correct and I always made it a rule in a strange city to immediately find out where to walk -and where not to walk. Like you, I believe that walking gives a "flavor" or "taste' of what a city might be like. I also always knew that any city on this planet has really dangerous areas. It has nothing to do with being poor (read some of ErikD's posts and he's right)It has to do with where criminals can prey on a fat pigeon, the proverbial "sitting duck")

NE 450 No.2

I have no wish to pick a fight (and I'm sure you don't either) but PLEASE, don't say you have "no doubt" that your 44 Mag will kill a Cape buffalo. A 22 can kill an elephant. (He has very soft skin behind the ear. Unfortunately you might not get the chance to poke a 22 behind the elephant's ear)A Cape buffalo has been said to be the toughest animal in Africa to drop. I don't want to be quarrelsome - but have you ever seen a Cape buffalo in Africa? You think he's "soft skinned"? Take a look at the head of any Holstein bull. Ever touch that forehead? Now think about an animal who has been living wild for centuries and that the lions never got to wipe out.(In fact, for the most part, lions walk very carefully around Cape buffalo) I never faced it, thank god, but I understand that a charging lion comes in low and in a scuttling motion that makes him an already difficult target. He also covers 100 yards in about 4.5 seconds. At exactly what point will you decide that rifle shots having failed, that you will go to the trusty 44 Mag? (I assume that the PH has left you out there to be eaten up if your shooting with the rifle failed. Why should he care?) A pistol in Africa for a sporting hunter is as useful as the proverbial you know what on a boar.

During my three trips to RSA I have brought and carried a pistol, and will do so again. It certainly does NOT guarantee safety, it's only one more part of the equation. After 27 years with a badge I think I'm pretty alert but still worry a little bit about being surprised. Perhaps that's why it hasn't happened yet.

Last month I was speaking with a friend in Johannesburg and asked what sort of reaction I would receive from the police if I had to shoot someone. His reply was that the police are just as sick of crime in RSA as the civilians, and any justified shooting would be handled properly. He is very well informed but again, there are no guarantees. Other countries could be an entirely different story.

Interesting sidelight- he carries a .40 S&W, not because he dislikes the 9mm but because it is easier to find hollowpoints in .40 than in 9mm in RSA. He also said "We all disparage 9mm ball, but I know a lot of people who have had to shoot someone with it. In every case, the bad guy either went down, gave up, or ran away. It actually does the job pretty well." Thanks, but I like to carry +P+ hollowpoints in mine when around people. Save the fmj for finishing shots on big animals.

As for pistol effectiveness, I once shot a medium size snapping turtle on the head with the Speer .38 shotshells, fired from a snubbie about 3 feet away. None of the pellets penetrated the skull to enter the brain, they just gave his face a case of acne. I was not impressed and neither was he. It sounds like the .44 shotshells do a much better job.

Another officer shot an injured deer in the head, twice, with .45 Auto Federal 230 gr Hydrashoks. The deer got a minor headache. I killed it with one shot of 9mm Winchester 115 gr Silvertip because I was careful to get a 90' impact angle for penetration, the .45 loads had been fired at an angle and skidded around the skull under the skin.

Last month in RSA I finished an impala that was down but certainly alive (my crummy shooting) by firing one shot of 9mm 124 gr NATO fmj into the heart from the side, that worked well. But I also tried to finish a wildebeest that was down but still alive (someone ELSE's crummy shooting) with the same load, fired into the front of the head, twice. The shots were placed where the PH directed but had no effect. After later looking at "The Perfect Shot" diagrams I think the bullets may have gone too high to hit the brain, but the skinners recovered one 9mm fmj that looked like it had been beat up with a hammer- not expanded but seriously deformed. The .44 mag is much more powerful; but 9mm fmj, especially at the higher NATO velocity, is a very penetrating round and others have killed a number of bears over the years by using fmj and firing a lot of shots quickly. BTW, I fired one more 9 behind his ear and that did the job.

If I were going to carry a pistol for just game animals, it would certainly be a .44
But since people are always the overall biggest threat, I compromise with the 9mm and load with different ammo for different situations.

On the whole "pistol or no pistol" issue, the only people whom I seriously disagree with are the ones who try to use one answer for all people in all countries in all circumstances.

gerald416
Not to start a fight, but I must disagree. I have shot pig, elk and cow skulls with the 44 and had no problems with penetration with the right ammo. Even from the side 240 hollowpoints will not shoot through an elks skull. Heavy hard cast bullets always do.
Maybe I did not make myself clear so I will try again.If you have a handgun with the right ammo it is another option.
Whether attacked by 2 or 4 legged dangerous game a handgun "might" safe your life. If you do not have one there is no "might".
In the case of dangerous game the handgun takes up where the rifle becomes useless. Especially once contact is made the handgun is worth its weight in gold IMHO. Also durring times when you do not have your rifle in your hands.
While this is my first Africa trip I have been in close contact [very close] with several grizzly and black bears in Montana. I try never to be farther than half an arms reach from a powerful rifle.... But the first sign you are in trouble may be when the Bear knocks you down. In that case a handgun is your only chance.
You never know how your shots will effect an animal, you might get lucky and just the concussion of the discharge "might" get the animal off of you.
THE MAIN THING HERE IS, IF THERE IS NO HANDGUN... THERE IS NO "MIGHT".
I believe that if you make perparations in advance... and have trouble... then you are prepared for it.
I have been in some situations where I had to shoot animals to keep them of of me, including 2 with a handgun... I was real happy to have it I can assure you.

Gearhead Jim
You just might have something with your 9mm ball. If you are "strolling down the street in Joberg and a band of thugs jumps you, just pop them with some 9mm ball, then when they run off just continue your stroll.

On a more serious note, the 44 shotshells do work very good for snakes, grouse, rabbits, squirrel, etc at distances that might suprise you. The ones in the 45ACP work very good too.
After using the 9mm and the 45ACP quite a bit in the field I have reached the conclusion that the 44 revolver is the only way to go. I use a 4" S&W with speed loaders, which I feel is the best allround solution for field use against 2 and 4 legged problems. If spending time in town I carry proper self defense type loads, but as soon as I pass the city limit sign in go the field loads.
When in BIG animal country I use hard cast bullets, at the deer lease I have had good results on pig skulls with the Speer 270 Gold Dot Soft Point. This factory load is very accurate.
The Mountain Gun is a little lighter and not too bad to shoot with full power loads. Hint: the 270 and 300 grain loads kick less than the 240grainers. This is true even in the new Scandium 44 according to my friend, I have yet to shoot one.

Gentlemen - The need for a handgun in the bush is protection against a) Lion b) Hyaena c) Sons of Darkness (aka loveable locals). The only people that I have ever heard of getting squashed by ele's or buff at night have been rural tribesmen trying to defend their crops. You have a brain to protect yourself from those critters, and that is more than adequate - even if you come from New York!

Lion, Hyaena and people are a different story. They prey on people at night - and a .357 up will do whats needed.

In all my years in Parks I drew a handgun three times.
1) When i rode into an elephant (in broad daylight buut I was watching a jackal and trying to decide if it was rabid as seeing one in daylight was unusual and it was acting up. The ele was apparently standing in the rode when I roade straight into his front leg, and promptly fell of the motor bike) he needed a shot over his head to tell him to push off and stop performing right on top of me.
2) I awoke with a Hyaena standing on my streatcher in Mana Pools campsight (I had arrived very late and instead of waking the resident ecologist and scrounging a bed had just hung a mozzi net and gon to sleep next to my landrover) That hyaena got lead poisoning and is now a Rug mount in my lounge
3) The night I got shot to s$#! in a contact. With a smashed right shoulder it isn't easy to use a rifle but that .41... all that a man could need. (and no, an AK47 isn't a great man stopper with millitary ball)

N E 450 No 2

You and I are really talking at cross purposes. When you mentioned about grizzly and black bear, I understood you fully. The point I am trying to make is that African DG just never will give you the chance to shoot at them with a handgun. Your rifle failed and your PH failed and yet, somehow, the piece will save you? (There just are no two legged bad guys to watch for -unless you want to hunt in back areas of Angola or Mozambique where die hards don't want to give up a civil war) As emphatically as I can, I understand the comfort that a good weapon gives you. My point is that it really is irrelevant in the field in broad daylight and there is an animal who looks a lot bigger than you and who, somehow, looks a lot more dangerous than any picture you ever saw of him, and you have only seconds to deal with him. Wanna compare ballistics tables about, say a 375 H&H against a 44 mag? C'mon, we are not having a fight. Keep the faith.