Snakebite is a huge concern for me and most of the people who enjoy self guided hunts on foot in West Africa. 90% of the squiggly things have poison, as well as scorpions, and even the caterpillars can send you into throes of agony! In spite of having many close calls and outfitted probably 100 hunts so far, thank God, no one has been bitten by a snake. It is still constantly on your mind. My fellow adventurers either love the fact all kinds of snakes are present or are ready to call off the trip when they hears the litany of creatures out to get you.
I have a missionary friend who carries the infamous “black stone†for which he paid a decent sum of money. The idea is to place the stone on the bite and hold it there where it will magically cure you. As a trained biologist I remain highly skeptical of this device, other than it has some porosity and will perhaps draw out a tiny bit of venom.
Others have played with the electric shocking devices (big cranking generator with leads that are supposed to be hooked to the bite spot) that were popular a few years back and after hooking it up to an unsuspecting turtle they observed the normally docile creature went from 0 to 60 in nothing flat. They were hesitant to try it out until some one was bit. When they did there was no apparent relenting of the venom symptoms except for the fact the shocking was so painful it took the victim’s mind off the poison for a period of time. They concluded the “cure†was worse than the disease!

To share what I have concluded is the best option in my circumstances I bring along two of the “Sawyers Extractor Kitsâ€. (Two so I can put one on each fang hole of large snakes. If you question that check out this video I took in Congo with the pygmies.)
http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/Camshaft2008/?...rrent=gabonteeth.flv If you look closely I really might have needed 3 extractors for this Gabon viper!
Although some of you may laugh, here is my first or direct experience:
I am fair haired boy and react severely to bees. Not to the point I have anti-phylactic shock, but very severe swelling. In Congo where I have done extensive explorations it is routine to have up to 50 bees crawling all over you licking up your sweat. Any false move and the bees feel trapped and sting immediately. If I get the extractor on a sting immediately the swelling will be reduced to a BB size ball under the skin, instead of a limb 2X its size. I know this is not a deep injection by a snake, but the principals apply.
My friend in CAR stepped on a big black scorpion in his kitchen; yes these guys do just come on in uninvited. Normally this would have led to a very serious poison attack as he took the stinger full in the calf. I had recently given him a Sawyer kit and he applied it immediately. Now he did report that there was still some pain, but he was not incapacitated as he had been in the past when bit. He now swears by them.
A gardener of another friend in Congo got bit by a cobra. Again they applied the Sawyer immediately (I think this is definitely the key, immediately) and he suffered much less than anticipated. This guy is now also a believer.
I personally feel this kit will reduce the amount of venom entering the system and is well worth carrying. If you do some research you will even find it in the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference).
I would like to know if anyone else has a reasonable means to deal with snake bite where refrigeration of anti-venom is not a possibility, such as on a foot safari.
Camshaft

I carry one of the Sawyers kits in my truck, but although I have had some close calls, so far no need to use it.

I've had encounters with Black Mambas, Puff Adders, and cobras, and will likely encounter more in the future. Although I tread very carefully and don't squat in places before I fully check out the surroundings, having such a kit would be a good thing. Where can one get one of those kits or find out more info on it?

Namibiahunter

Most sporting goods stores sell them here in the States. I buy two and take them apart and put the two syringes in a plastic jar, like a peanut butter jar along with just a couple of the ends. I keep it in my butpack or on my person at all times. The whole issue is to get teh suction working as fast as possible. This is critical.
Also you need to practice. It is not like giving a shot, the syringe works in "reverse."
Camshaft

Cam,

I am going to order these to take to Zambia next month, thanks for posting this.

Thanks,
Andy

Personally, I recommend anyone going to areas where poisonous snakes reside, you wear Snake Guardz or our Snake Chaps. We have a $1 Million dollar guarantee against penetration by any snake. I wore them last month in Zim. They are ultra light weight and affordable. Anyone in North America wanting our color brochure just PM or email me your mailing address and I'll see that you receive one. Outside the US, I'll see if we have a distributor in your country that can send you one.
Good hunting,
David

Does anyone know if there has been any kind of trials/ effectiveness testing on those Rei kits on snakebite?

I can understand how they'd work on bee stings etc? (about the same as a pair of tweezers), but I'd have thought they'd have little or no effect on snake bites. Even their own ad states 'under the skin' rather than in the bloodstream, which is where the snake venom would be.

Do we have any MDs on the forum that might be able to give us an informed opinion?

Steve,

Based on some information searches I did several years ago, I found anecdotal comments indicating they are somewhat effective if the injection is not excessively deep in soft tissue.

Effectiveness diminishes with depth of injection into the muscle. Since most bites do not result in injection directly into the bloodstream, rapid use will have some beneficial effect although the extent of removal of venom cannot be predicted. The consensus seemed to be that at the least it reduced the venom load and lessened the potential effects of a bite.

Current literature gives mixed reviews. An Annals of Internal Medicine article in 2004 I believe states that it removed very little of a radioactive mock venom; however, there was a delay of several minutes before use. Also, a lot of snake venom is anticoagulant which could result in more removal of fluid instead of less in a real world situation.

One possible bad result of use could be the concentration of venom in a smaller area with increased necrosis, ulceration, etc.

Given the potential lethal result of an African snake bite, I would use it if available. What would I have to lose?

I carried a syringe kit in Tanzania where we saw three black cobras at our camp entrance. We were a good six hours from medical care in Dars. My rationale was that it would at least give me hope and keep me busy as I lapsed into a coma. BTW - snakes in NA don't concern me but those in Africa scare the hell out of me.

Oday450

Thanks for the interesting comments. I wonder if anyone ever heard any results of the electric shock trials that were reported to be happening a few years ago?

The theory was that snake venom is basically chains of protein and that electric shock such as a low zap from an electric personal defence weapon or cattle prod etc would break up the chains of protein and make the venom harmless. In the old days, it was said that one could put the patient on the bonnet of a petrol engined truck, put the HT lead close to the wound and turn the engine over. I never had cause to try it myself but I believe Wally Johnson(?) wrote somewhere that he'd done it successfully.

All that said, I've been hunting Africa for close to 30 years now and have never had anyone ever bitten by a snake and I've lived here in White River for 8 or 9 years and have never had a snake encounter in the house and only one in the garden and he buggered off PDQ.

I have had one of these extractor kits for a few years. Recently I went through EMT school. I asked about these kits as we attend to several snake bites a year at my depatment. Both doctors and paramedics running the class said that they were worthless for snakebites. A snake injects it's venom deep in the tissue. The suction providided by this kit won't suck hard enough to pull it from 1/4-1/2" below the skin level. Best thing you can do is not get bit. Next best thing you can do is get to a hospital ASAP.

I recollect a thread on the "electric" method not too long ago. My take was that there was no medical evidence of effectiveness, just anecdotal.
Peter.

Hi there, I would think that there are many old-wives tales about snake bites. In the old days I some people recommended cutting into the wound and sucking out the venom, and applying gypsum salts, etc. This is no longer recommended by the way. I think the current suction contraptions on the market might help a bit if applied immediately to elapid bites, which generally involve short fangs, but complete rest (easy to say), bandages and tourniquet would probably be much more effective than any suction device. On a viper/adder bite, the venom will be well on its way into the bloodstream and tissues before you have a hope of getting any venom out I would have thought.

The cattle-prodder shock treatment idea I have heard of, but I think there are very few documented cases of it actually being used and one never knows whether it was completely successful or not, especially if it was a dry bite, etc. The idea makes sense though of breaking down the venom protein, then again putting your limb in very hot water might have a similar effect. If I had been bitten by a mamba and was a long way off from medical help or antivenom, I would probably run a car/truck battery flat with shocks just to give it a try as the alternative would be death.

When we were in Tanzania several years ago my buddy and I pulled out our snake bite kits (the Sawyer kits) and asked if we should take them along in our day pack. The PHs got quite a kick out of that. They said, "Sure, it will give you something to do while you slip into a coma." Of course that is hyperbole at some level, but the fact is that using techniques that work on a rattlesnake bite are not going to give you much hope if a mamba lays into you.

You know maybe I'm to casual about snakes but I think in most cases if you use a very minimum of caution (check where you are putting your bare backsides) you wil not have a problem with snakes. I tried to calculate how many snakes I've seen in Africa and it averaged about 1 per safari. I mean I saw A snake not almost stepped on it or had it in my tent or anything else. Just saw a snake.

Snakes are not out there looking for people to bite.

Mark

As I remember it the PDR did a controlled study of these Sawyer devices. They allowed rattlesnakes to bite rabbits and then tried to pull back the venom. It did not pull all of the venom back by any means, but it did pull some back. Since the venom is a cumulative issue any venom you can pull back is going to help.
It does not sound like anyone has anything better, as I do not plan to carry along a car battery on my next foot safari. I was hoping for some of the collective knowledge out there to give me some new insights.
Camshaft

Back in the 70s, Sports Afield or Outdoor Life did a 3 part series on using electric shock (stun guns) on venomous bites. They published a number of photos and information that led to the advent of the Snake Doctor, a stun gun designed to work on finger/toe surfaces as well as leg areas. From the photos, it did appear that using this device produced much better results than any other method. The AMA denounced any such device claiming getting to the hospital and anti-venom were the only tried and true method. Bottom line; avoid getting bit. Some of the new leg guards and chaps will prevent bites from your lower extremities. Just good insurance and my Australian Outfitter highly recommends them. You won't make it to a hospital from the Outback.
LDK

steve, the best you can do is know the type of snake that bites you and what kind of venom. electric shocks do not work and excessive iceing can do damage i think with cobra, mamba type neuro toxin a pressure bandage is preferred. the big vipers, puff adder, gaboon etc inject deep and remaining calm and getting medical help is the best. if you go get tested for anti venom and know you are ok and catty various types you could use it.i have been bitten twice and the thing that bothers me is the time it takes to get help. here it was fast but there is trouble.

A correctly applied pressure immobilization bandage and rapid casevac to a hospital is still the best bet.

I am ER doc and have done several lectures on snake bites. The best thing you can do is remain calm (yeah right!), reduce movement or immobilize the limb without constriction, and get to a hospital. Do not waste time trying to kill the snake. If you can id it quickly then do so but not at the expense of getting to help. With some of the neurotoxic snakes that are found in Africa and Australia a properly placed constriction band can be placed but you need to know what you are doing or you can make things worse. The Sawyer extraction devices have been tested and are very inconclusive. It does not seem to do much harm though and it may work, so I recommend them. Do not make any additional cuts and certainly do not use electrical therapy or ice. The key with the sawyer seems to be quickly applying it. Again, do not slow down transport but if you can get it on then it is worth a shot. Don't expect much but if it helps then great. Hope this helps.

I do not like snakes, but I do not worry about them... Stay cool and make the shot...

Mike
black mamba attacked and rifles barked and it was over...

Lee,
My original post was to try to see what to do on what I am calling a “portaged safari.†I am often up to 4 day's walk form the nearest village. The fastest way to get back to the road involves walking for 3-4 days. That would just increase blood flow and cause more damage as I understand it. Is it worth creating a litter and having the porters carry the person who was bit? The whole "go to a hospital" thing just does not work in these situations.
If you check out the video of the Gabon viper I posted with this at the beginning I was closer to 6 days from a hospital if I was in perfect shape, much less in a litter when this guy tried to take a chunk out of one of my porters. My son was with me and took the video, but if some one had been bit what would have been the best avenue to take?
Camshaft

Cam
If you have time please post some of your old Congo,CAR and Cameroun hunting pictures. I know everybody would love to see them !

When you are that far out there is not a whole lot you can do. I would certainly try the Sawyer extractor and then make an effort to get out and to help. The thing with snake bites is that if you are going to get sick from it you will usually do so in the first several hours. On some rare occasions you can have a delayed reaction that is worse than the first episode and occurs several days after the bite. I would still recommend trying to evacuate as quickly as possible for this reason. If not possible then I guess just provide symptomatic treatment with lots of fluids (4-5 liters per day minimum) and Tylenol for pain or fever. Do not use aspirin or ibuprofen b/c they can thin the blood which is the main mechanism by which hemotoxic venoms work so you wouldn't want a double whammy. If you need to walk out and the victim is showing signs of getting sick then I would carry him out if possible. You are really in a pickle if you are that far out and someone gets really sick from a bite. Most bites are not fatal though so you have that going for you.

Thanks for the informative post for those of us in this situation.
I guess i will carry on with my trusty extractor.
By the way, I can get these wholesale if anyone wants a bunch of them. I could bring to Dallas Show in January if there would be interest.
I already buy about 20/year and give them away tro my missionary friends. Under $10 this way.
Camshaft

quote:

...By the way, I can get these wholesale if anyone wants a bunch of them. I could bring to Dallas Show in January if there would be interest.
I already buy about 20/year and give them away tro my missionary friends. Under $10 this way.
Camshaft

Cam,

I will buy a couple off of you when we get together out there.

George

As most of you know, besides ,being a guide ,im a surgeon ,and my family owns the biggest hospital in our department,some advices are DONT PUT PRESSURE IN NECROTIZING BITES,DONT MAKE CUTS,MOVE SLOWLY,LOW PRESSURE IN NEUROTOXIC BITES,GET MEDICAL AID FAST ANYTHING ELSE IS WORTHLESS ,AGAIN TRY TO BE CALM MOVE SLOWLY.Most of scorpions respond to corticoids if you dont have the antivenoum .Juan

Hi Cam,

You can contact,Romulus Earl Whitaker

P.O. Box 21
Chengalpattu 603001
Tamil Nadu
India
Ph # (04114) 220195
Email: draco@vsnl.com

He is a world authority on snakes. He may be able to advice you.

Hope you are keeping well.

Mamun

Mamun,
Good to see you are still alive and kicking. Feel free to send me a PM and catch me up.
Camshaft

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Most of scorpions respond to corticoids if you dont have the antivenoum .Juan

juan,

What are corticoids? Are they available over the counter.

Thanks,
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Most of scorpions respond to corticoids if you dont have the antivenoum .Juan

juan,

What are corticoids? Are they available over the counter.

Thanks,
Andy

I believe he means corticosteroids - hydrocortisone, dexamethasone, prednisolone, etc. All oral and injectable dosage forms are prescription only in the US.

Yes corticoesteroids can be buy under medical prescription ,you can use them to disminishe the damage or anafilactic response ,they came prepared to be injected,commerial name decadron at least here in Argentina ,i used it with great succes in alacran bites to my soldiers during manouver in the PUNA DE ATACAMA ,the little scorpions likes our warm sleeping bags and we have experimented a lot of bites .Juan