quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

But if you do even a remotely dangerous activity 150-200 days a year, year after year, chance catches up.

"chance catches up" ....... meaning being too cock-sure of oneself and which has been the downfall of many, some lived to tell the tale, other were less fortunate.

Why are a minority group of animals classified as dangerous? ... simply because they are the ones with a record of being capable of purposely killing you if you make the mistake of taking them for granted.

Indeed, an Oryx can impale you when on the ground breathing its last; a warthog or boar could slice a few leg arteries and cause you to bleed to death. These and others like them however are not animals known to have any inbred instinct to attack with intent to kill.

Buffalo is the exception of the DG species as it is constantly being harassed; by the predators on the one hand, and by hunters on the other.

The Elephant is a herbivore, bothers no-one and only very rarely retaliates unless wounded;

Hippo, a docile herbivore known to mind its own business until someone comes along and hoofs it out of its wallow or pond; (can get very irate)

Lion & Leopard are predators and nothing really bothers them except humans (and Hyenas) - retaliate if wounded or hungry (rare but known to have a liking for Japanese tourists).

It therefore stands to reason that old Syncerus Caffer is a grumpy old bastard by nature and can be quite a "horn-full" if not treated with respect.

I view uneducated in the way of gun safety clients as being one of the biggest risk and chance catching up being eventually something going pear shaped from ad, road accidents, run in with armed poachers, wounded game, just remote bad stuff happening.

DG hunting in itself has remote risk - why it is sold to client hunters who can engage in it with out any real requirements beyond wiring the money.

For PHs over a lifetime there is good chance something hair raising happens.

I think any profession where you have to carry a gun as a job requirement - ph, police ect - there is a good chance of something eventually requiring the use of that gun. Also why I would never do any professional that requires carrying a firearm.

Mike

quote:

When the grass is long and thick you have to get very close. Something that Buffalo often object to.

"Buffalo is the exception of the DG species as it is constantly being harassed; by the predators on the one hand, and by hunters on the other".

Hence one of the reasons for herds having "lookouts" posted on their periphery; why the hunting of solitary or small groups of bulls raises chances of scoring but also of having to deal with a veteran, and as stated, a wounded Buffalo in the long grass or dense thorny thicket is a force to reckon with and something the ordinary client being unlikely capable of following through.

Mind you not all PHs are as thick-skinned as the other and it would be wrong for any outfitter to appoint an inexperienced PH who has just emerged from apprenticeship, to guide a DG hunt.

Unfortunately times being what they are, the opportunities/privileges some of us enjoyed in our former hunting years cannot be repeated and the young PHs of today will never be able to gain experience from the "trial and errors" the old school went through.

"DG hunting in itself has remote risk - why it is sold to client hunters who can engage in it with out any real requirements beyond wiring the money".

Yes and yes: The risk can be remote if "all things are equal" - if the client performs in the expected manner (you would be surprised how many don't) and then also one must contend with Murphy's Law; indeed the outfitter wants your money no matter who you are and hence the reason why costs may be higher (why?) .... because he is expected to provide you with a seasoned PH (who comes at a price - like MS for example) to save your sorry ass (pun - no offense intended) should the shit hit the fan.

I hunt DG because the potential danger adds excitement to the whole process for me. From preparation and shooting practice, to tracking and the stalk.

I feel that Andrew's statement about distance is the most important factor. You can lung-shoot a buffalo at 125 yards, that never had a clue where you shot from. I shot my most recent buff at eight yards. And that is what I'm after.

I like tracking game through wild country, while carrying a big rifle. That's another big draw for me.

So, why the disparity in daily rates between PG and DG if DG is not dangerous?

A wounded bushbuck or gemsbuck in the bush can be quite dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, why the disparity in daily rates between PG and DG if DG is not dangerous?

A wounded bushbuck or gemsbuck in the bush can be quite dangerous.

I think the reason is that there are far less dangerous game on licence, so outfitters try to get more income from them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, why the disparity in daily rates between PG and DG if DG is not dangerous?

A wounded bushbuck or gemsbuck in the bush can be quite dangerous.

I think the reason is that there are far less dangerous game on licence, so outfitters try to get more income from them.

That makes sense. Sorry for the dumb question, but the game departments seem to make it different. On the last Boddington show (I don't remember which, as he has a few out there), they encountered a herd of 2,000 buffalo. I've never seen 2,000 of any species in one place (other than cattle feedlots). It was in Mozambique, I think.

I am just curious. The only buffalo I've shot have been in South America. I still hope to return to the dark continent for the cape.

I hunt Dangerous Game as these hunts add an extra attention to the hunt. This spesific attention that you never have when PG hunting.

Morten

Lot's of great posts on this topic. I don't go on a buffalo hunt with the intention (or expectation) of getting killed.

On my last buff hunt, from a reality standpoint, I was more at risk from my heart condition than from a buffalo's charge, or bumping into an elephant while heading back to the truck after dark.

But the reason, I like buffalo hunting, as stated before is that those guys can go into "you or me" mode at the turn of a dime.

Maybe 95-99% will run off after the first shot, but the excitement of the ones who come at you, is an experience like none other (excepting being charged by a lion, elephant, leopard, rhino, bear, tiger, etc).

In that moment everything is distilled into the purest form of natural survival there is. Time slows down (for me anyway), and you have 100% of your focus on making the followup shot.

Afterward, you feel exhilarated, because you know you have had a close call, yet prevailed.

Although I have a keen appreciation of the skill of the trackers, and love almost every aspect of being on safari (except for the cost, of course), I am drawn to DG hunting for the potential danger.

I think an eland is a gorgeous animal and makes a fine looking trophy, but I would rather hunt and shoot one buffalo then 20 elands. That is just me.

Good hunting,

BH63

I just wanted to add...I think a Professional Hunter looks at DG from a much different perspective than a client.

Most PHs recommend a .375 H&H for their clients when hunting DG, not because that is the best caliber, but because the recoil is more manageable than larger calibers. The last thing they want is a client who flinches from a heavy caliber and screws up the first shots.

That makes sense from their perspective and they usually have a "stopper" rifle for back up in case it is needed.

For me, I use a .416 Rem Mag because I want something big enough to be used as a stopper.

I can shoot this rifle well, and can usually hit the bulleye at 100 yards on my first shot from the bench. When shooting at DG (buffalo and ellie so far), I have never noticed the recoil at all.

Tony Sanchez has stated repeatedly in his books that he believes a proper buffalo/elephant gun should shoot at least a 400 gr bullet at 2000 fps.

This gives adequate stopper power for when things go south. He also stated that when a wounded buffalo charges, you can't have too big a gun.

But again from a modern-day PH perspective, they just want the client to get his trophies with as minimum a hassle (and danger) as possible. That is a very reasonable goal for a professional IMO.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, why the disparity in daily rates between PG and DG if DG is not dangerous?

A wounded bushbuck or gemsbuck in the bush can be quite dangerous.

Yes but it would be embarrassing to be killed by a bushbuck ...

Switch to a bow and the whole dangerous game thing takes on a new meaning.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

Most PHs recommend a .375 H&H for their clients when hunting DG, not because that is the best caliber, but because the recoil is more manageable than larger calibers. The last thing they want is a client who flinches from a heavy caliber and screws up the first shots.

When shooting at DG (buffalo and ellie so far), I have never noticed the recoil at all.


BH63

Any PH worth his salt should ask you to bring whichever rifle you shoot best and let you know in advance that the .375 is the minimum legal requirement for hunting DG.

I would recommend the .416 as the ideal all-round caliber for the client who wants to hunt DG (and PG). Just a question of choosing between Rigby or Remington, the latter probably being the most popular.


And anyone who flinches when shooting a rifle is scared of the caliber being fired and should hang it on the wall or get rid of it.

Interesting posts. Agree totally with Fulvio on his last post. My .416 is the best all around rifle I've ever owned. It's the only rifle I truly need. I have bigger rifles, and smaller rifles, but if I could have only one, that would be it.

Agree that one's perspective on "dangerous" depends on experience. I can remember my first foray into the crud after buffalo and I was afraid, mostly that I would perform badly, as others had. Turned out I loved it. I've bothched first shots and had to follow up, but now, I'm disappointed if a second shot is required.

I've only hunted lion once and while we were baiting, both encounters were on the ground and tracking. Lack of familiarity resulted in some anxiousness, especially given the thickness of the cover.

Bumping elephant, especially cows with calves, has been more stressful to me as you don't want to shoot a cow with a calf.

I've told my partners there is no real risk and I believe that. I have the best equipment and a PH to protect me. But they are still pretty insistent that I get my key man insurance in place before this year's trip.

I am sure I have told this story before. I have never been afraid of elephants, buff, lion, etc. In Masailand I had two buff come out of nowhere charging but as soon as I moved my gun into position they turned back into the thick stuff from which they came - no time to even be scared. I did have one buff take off toward me later on in that hunt, but I am not sure that was a charge - in any event, he turned at the shot and I rolled him running. However, I was a bit scared when hunting in some thick stuff going after a hippo. We could hear two bulls making a hell of a racket in the creek/river to our front. Behind us was another creek that flowed into it, making our retreat options a bit limited.

Anyway, the stuff was so thick you couldn't see ten feet. All of a sudden there was a tremendous racket - roaring, grunting, and the tall thin trees ahead of us came crashing down. I quickly threw up my rifle. That is when Fulvio said in a really calm voice, "If you touch one off, make sure it isn't next to my eardrum."

I knew then we were in no danger. One of many memories of that hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

Most PHs recommend a .375 H&H for their clients when hunting DG, not because that is the best caliber, but because the recoil is more manageable than larger calibers. The last thing they want is a client who flinches from a heavy caliber and screws up the first shots.

When shooting at DG (buffalo and ellie so far), I have never noticed the recoil at all.


BH63

Any PH worth his salt should ask you to bring whichever rifle you shoot best and let you know in advance that the .375 is the minimum legal requirement for hunting DG.

My comment about PH's recommending the .375 is based upon a questionaire Craig Boddington included in his book "Safari Rifles".

I agree that a .416 is just about the most versatile DG rifle a typical hunter can have.

I think Boddington's recommendation (in Safari Rifles) for a two-rifle safari was for a .338 and a .416.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I am sure I have told this story before. I have never been afraid of elephants, buff, lion, etc. In Masailand I had two buff come out of nowhere charging but as soon as I moved my gun into position they turned back into the thick stuff from which they came - no time to even be scared. I did have one buff take off toward me later on in that hunt, but I am not sure that was a charge - in any event, he turned at the shot and I rolled him running. However, I was a bit scared when hunting in some thick stuff going after a hippo. We could hear two bulls making a hell of a racket in the creek/river to our front. Behind us was another creek that flowed into it, making our retreat options a bit limited.

Anyway, the stuff was so thick you couldn't see ten feet. All of a sudden there was a tremendous racket - roaring, grunting, and the tall thin trees ahead of us came crashing down. I quickly threw up my rifle. That is when Fulvio said in a really calm voice, "If you touch one off, make sure it isn't next to my eardrum."

I knew then we were in no danger. One of many memories of that hunt.

That is the difference between an experienced PH and one that attended a 2 week course in Cape Town.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting For Adventure:
Switch to a bow and the whole dangerous game thing takes on a new meaning.

No Tom, its still just hunting man! Wound em, its a problem, shoot em clean and they die quickly - just like any other animal.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Lot's of great posts on this topic. I don't go on a buffalo hunt with the intention (or expectation) of getting killed.

On my last buff hunt, from a reality standpoint, I was more at risk from my heart condition than from a buffalo's charge, or bumping into an elephant while heading back to the truck after dark.

But the reason, I like buffalo hunting, as stated before is that those guys can go into "you or me" mode at the turn of a dime.

Maybe 95-99% will run off after the first shot, but the excitement of the ones who come at you, is an experience like none other (excepting being charged by a lion, elephant, leopard, rhino, bear, tiger, etc).

In that moment everything is distilled into the purest form of natural survival there is. Time slows down (for me anyway), and you have 100% of your focus on making the followup shot.

Afterward, you feel exhilarated, because you know you have had a close call, yet prevailed.

Although I have a keen appreciation of the skill of the trackers, and love almost every aspect of being on safari (except for the cost, of course), I am drawn to DG hunting for the potential danger.

I think an eland is a gorgeous animal and makes a fine looking trophy, but I would rather hunt and shoot one buffalo then 20 elands. That is just me.

Good hunting,

BH63

BuffHunter63, you just said how I feel, as well, about hunting cape buffalo in a post that felt like you were reading my mind!

...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

Most PHs recommend a .375 H&H for their clients when hunting DG, not because that is the best caliber, but because the recoil is more manageable than larger calibers. The last thing they want is a client who flinches from a heavy caliber and screws up the first shots.

When shooting at DG (buffalo and ellie so far), I have never noticed the recoil at all.



My comment about PH's recommending the .375 is based upon a questionaire Craig Boddington included in his book "Safari Rifles".

I agree that a .416 is just about the most versatile DG rifle a typical hunter can have.

I think Boddington's recommendation (in Safari Rifles) for a two-rifle safari was for a .338 and a .416.

BH63

The recommendation of a client bringing a 375H&H is still valid, because in many cases. the 375H&H is about the largest rifle the client has ever used. That recommendation by Boddington was made prior to the introduction of the 416 Rem Mag, and was from a tally of many PHs opinions.

Today the recommending of the 416 Rem Mag is valid if the client is using a CRF bolt rifle.

....................................................................

I've owned 3 416 Rems..

A blaser R8, Remington KS and Winchester M70.

The first two have never failed to eject...the CRF Winchester not so much.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I've owned 3 416 Rems..

A blaser R8, Remington KS and Winchester M70.

The first two have never failed to eject...the CRF Winchester not so much.

...............They all work till they don't!

..........................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I just wanted to add...I think a Professional Hunter looks at DG from a much different perspective than a client.

Most PHs recommend a .375 H&H for their clients when hunting DG, not because that is the best caliber, but because the recoil is more manageable than larger calibers. The last thing they want is a client who flinches from a heavy caliber and screws up the first shots.

BH63

BH63,

This has not been my experience. I've only hunted dangerous game (Ele & Buff) with 4 PH's, but none of them were fans of the 375. These are all very experienced PH's. First and foremost, they want you to bring something you shoot well. With that being said they had a very strong preference for any of the 416's over all of the 375's, especially on elephant.

^The .375 recommendation (by PHs) was based entirely upon information I have read in hunting books (and a few PHs on forums).

I have only used .416 Rem Mag on my 3 DG hunts and after watching me shoot at targets the 3 PHs were satisfied.

Having some rich novice show up on safari with Brand New expensive big bores that they have never shot certainly ups the D factor in DG.

When I first arrive at camp, I sometime like to ask the PH to zero my rifle just to watch their expression.

Bh63

I just finished reading Chilvers Lubin s Africs Legendery Professional hunters and note how often they recommended a .375 for DG although many recommended a 416. Also,hunting buffalo is a favorite. I did not count though.

What I love with buffalo is you setoff at sunrise full of hope this is the day for a great buff. You scout some water holes or tracks on the road among dung piles, find a big hoof track with some drag marks of a big bull and you re off tracking with all senses
alive particularly as you hear them and the birds accompanying them, early warning sirens you have to keep out of eye sight. You watch for the zephyrs and feel them on your face, check the dung, listening constantly then you smell the rich buffalo scent on the breeze. Maybe you start crawling on your butt or stomach to get closer. A stray cow or calf looks at you trying to figure you out and you freeze until they start grazing again and eventually you PH tells you take the shot and all he'll breaks loose.. You ve matched your skills and courage against him. Until you ve faced him you can never be quite sure of you courage when he comes. Will they come at you? Did you get a good shot? Can you take a running shot? Where the he'll did your bull go? Is ther a blood trail? Which bush is he behind? Has he doubled back to catch you? Then the bellow! The coupe de grace. Then reminiscence of the stalk, shot and what happened as he ran. Later dissecting and checking the bullet tracks, and delicious buffalo tail, tenderloin, and maybe if your really brave, buffalo calamari. What's not to like as part of our Paleolithic genetics of observation, planning weapons, designing the approach, communicating, action, and debriefing.

^
In a nutshell "It's all good!"

BH63

I love the freaking rush I get in a charge situation..I would never instigate a charge but I sure welcome it..I can't explain it but It does create an experience like no other..otherwise Id only hunt Plainsgame. I don't fear it, never occurred to me to be concerned. Ive delt with 2.5 charges, two close encounters and one that developed but I killed the animal at 30 or 40 yards as he came to us..I gave him half credit! and he was my best bull every.

Actually my most near death experience was when a Charlois bull tuned my horse upside down with me under him, that was of great concern but turned out fine. Cattle be they Buffalo or Herefords can be dangerous, so can a buck deer, I had a mule deer mop up a half section so Texas terrain with my body many years ago!

Hunt'en or just living has its ups and downs, worrying about dieing is a waste of time.

I hunt DG for the same reason i used to climb mountains and run white-water rapids---


I love it!!!!