It is generally agreed that it will be not required any penetration above the one achieved by a 500 grains round nose solid travelling at 2100 f/s.

Does anyone know of a meaningful (lives may depend on it) test that may enable game rangers to evaluate the best possible bullet shape/velocity combination in their gun?

It will imply building a target that will duplicate as accurately is possible the worst possible condition in the toughest of dangerous animals (hippo included). It must also give a reliable indication of the wound channel created by different bullet shapes.

The combination of adequate penetration and maximum wound channel should be considered the more effective.

Mike Lagrange shot about 10,000 buffalo, and elephant with all sorts of guns. He then made an exhaustive study of the same guns by shooting into giant blocks of wax. He came to some very opinionated views. Worth while reading for anyone interested. His book is titled "Ballistic's in Perspective"

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 05-04-2002).]

Sounds like an interesting book, I hadn't heard of it before. I will get a copy, but can you summarize the conclusions? Let me guess, medium speed, heavy weight, big diameter, tough bullets, kill best?

He says given all the choices he has and considering everthing he would choose a 458 Win Mag properly loaded.

"2130 ft/sec in the 458 Win with 500 grain bullets has made a a caliber which had become inadequate into one that is now totally
reliable".
"The 460 Short A-Square fires the same bullet at 2300 ft/sec and has phenomenal penetration, better than any other I have
seen".

His data regarding the bizzare problems with higher velocity are also amusing. Sorry if I ruined it but the details are still worth the read.jj

I know some of you can come up with theory why it is flawed, but it still works as well as any and agrees with most experienced hunters opinion on calibers...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Review www.470 Mbogo.com web site, good place to start to compare big rifle performance.

Also a smaller longer bullet (high SD) will penitrate further than a bigger bullet, all things even up, because it meets less resistence in flesh and bone, but again does not create the bigger "bullet hole".

the 450-400 will penitrate as deep as any big bore and more than 99% of them, but it does not kill as well or as quickly as a 577.

I don't believe that a "machine" is needed to test this theory as it has pretty much proven itself in the African hunting fields for centuries.

Put that inquisitive mind of yours to work in another direction such as rifle twist effect on killing power and penitration, that needs some study..

Please be assured that I am not dictating your choice of study, just suggesting it from my point of view and trying to answer your question to the best of my ability.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

If I were conducting this test I would first perform a study of 500 grain bullets at the standard velocity. You will find significant variation I expect. Pick one load as a benchmark standard. Then, whenever a test is performed shoot a calibration shot with the standard load to verify that the test medium is not different from that used in prior tests (data collected over time may lead to the conclusion that calibration shots are unnecessary). Finally, I would consider inserting one or more ceramic tiles at a shallow depth in the target stack if deforming bullets are to be compared with solids, to provide some additional stress simulating impact with strong bone.

A test matrix of this sort will enable you to make a standard comparison of the wound tracks of other loads against the .458-500 gr / 2100 fps load using a standard bullet. It won't tell you how much better or worse some other load is in absolute terms, but if the wound tracks are carefully measured and recorded, perhaps over time comparisons can be drawn to actual shots on game. Be aware that a relatively inelastic medium such as clay will exaggerate the dimensions of the cavities produced by violently expanding bullets, as compared with solids. The actual permanent wound cavities will likely be much smaller in extent.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 05-08-2002).]

I am the fellow who posted about the difference rotational velocity made on penetration of solids.

I used a stop box similaer to Mike Lagranges.

Get the book JJHack recommended from Amazon.

Only place he screwed up was with 460 weatherby.

He attributed less penetration to velocity when it was due to a 1-16 vs 1-10 twist.

Still a great study by a great guy.

As for gelatin. I have shot up several 55 gallon barrels full of the Kind and Knox gelatin at both IWBA (10 %) and NATO specs (20%). The IWBA is based on penetration of bullets in pigs by the way, so any of Alfs data on pigs is identical to IWBA data on gelatin.

One and the same.

You can go to IWBA web site and order video on preparing gelatin to this standard.

My penetration in la granges stop box using differnet twists is as follows:

71 boards 416 1-10 twist, 410 Kynoch solid

71 boards 458 x 404 1-10, 500 hornady fmjrn.

70 1/2, 375 improved (300 at 2800 fps), 1-8 twist, and 450 Ackley 1-10 twist, 500 fmjrn.

69-70 450 Ackley 1-14 twist.

65 boards, 375 h and h, 1-8.

62 boards, 458 winchester, 2030 fps, 1-10.

61 boards, 375 h and h, 1-12 twist.

58-59 boards, 458 winchester 1-14 twist.

So the minimum penetration you are looking for with a solid is 58 boards (3/4 inch pine spaced 3/4 apart).

This is not a very impressive spoft point though.

I have seen the 510 rn sp not penetrate an american bisons spine at point blank due to large frotnal area and low velocity.

Dont be afraid of premium bullets at higher than normal velocity.

Good luck.

Andy

quote:

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
As far as penitration with solids, I think Taylors formula is about as accruate as one can get...

I know some of you can come up with theory why it is flawed, but it still works as well as any and agrees with most experienced hunters opinion on calibers...

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