Here is the link to the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2aE7sFWc1Q&feature=related

Bow + Ele = Bad Idea

quote:

Bow + Ele = Bad Idea

+1

That would have been a fun hunt if the client had been carrying a rifle.

Was the guy with the bow BACKUP for the hunter with the rifle???

If so, I think it's a good thing backup wasn't needed......

Yes, that came up last year I think on these forums. Razor's style doesn't exactly fit anyone that I know of. I think he is marketing to the crowd that has their hat turned around backwards and their pants below their hips.

Does that describe anyone here?

The client appeared to be confirming in his mind that he did not have "enough gun" for the task of dispatching Mr. Jumbo.

I sincerely do not understand the mentality of "bow and arrow" shooting for an elephant. Buzz Charlton's DVD shows a very respected bow hunter trying to take an elephant with a bow (90lb bow at that). He quickly takes a rifle to finish the job.

Let me

The guy who comes to Africa with a bow should travel by sail ship to Delagoa Bay and head to the interior with an ox cart and porters...



Now I'll sit back and take the abuse I deserve......

Just to be clear, I was not disparaging bowhunters as I also bowhunt. I think Razor's style is a turnoff for many hunters.

I will say that bowhunting for thick-skinned DG is pretty controversial and I'm not sure where I stand on it. A number of the world's greatest bowhunters have messed up on elephant. The ribs are so thick that it takes a precise shot between them to make it work consistently. It's not that you can't be precise with a bow but do any of us know where the spaces are between ribs??? I've got my hands full knowing where the brain shot is with a rifle.

I've got no problem with guys that bowhunt PG or even thin-skinned DG but it gets dicey when you ramp up to thick-skinned DG and many (not all) have to be followed up with a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
The client appeared to be confirming in his mind that he did not have "enough gun" for the task of dispatching Mr. Jumbo.

I sincerely do not understand the mentality of "bow and arrow" shooting for an elephant. Buzz Charlton's DVD shows a very respected bow hunter trying to take an elephant with a bow (90lb bow at that). He quickly takes a rifle to finish the job.

Dogcat
You are referring to me. Be sure that this shot is brewing in my head. The setting was almost perfect and we had managed to select the only clear window throughout which I could shoot. Only a tiny stem was in the way and was enough to deflect the arrow by almost 2 yards on the left and downway. Or was it the silencer hit by the fletching. I was using a 100# Bowtech.

Hell I bowhunt, Just shot a monster warthog on the weekend with it, kudu and wildebeest the week before.... but DG with a bow. You must be on something.....

See how he crouched down and realised that he had left his stash of drugs back at camp and that the sobering reality was not looking that promising.

Jean, I know you worked hard on that hunt. Buzz was talking about it coming up when I was there. Maybe next time?

The bow hunter should carry the bow in a sling and a rifle at the ready, just in case this very situation arose. Puting the PH in a situation which called for rifle shooting, without the hunter being involved, is a poor expectation. I have never hunted Elephant, but it seems to be a challenge to get inclose bow range with the animal in proper shooting position.

Bows are the reason we invented guns!

I see no issue, if a man wants to pay $30k+ to watch his PH shoot an ele, so be it. It's just not my thing.

You can definitely get close enough but you can't brain them with a bow and the head is usually the part that is easiest to see above the ground cover. Jean's PH, Buzz Charlton, will get you as close as you want. The problem Jean had, as I understand it, is that they had a hard time getting a clear body shot.

I still remember Buzz coming away from that hunt with a great respect for what the bow could do. Buzz personally believes the bow is a viable weapon on ele now. Just ask him. I think he should go do it himself and show us how it's done. It's a tough hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
Yes, that came up last year I think on these forums. Razor's style doesn't exactly fit anyone that I know of. I think he is marketing to the crowd that has their hat turned around backwards and their pants below their hips.

Does that describe anyone here?

That damn so-called music, and the collage of flashing skulls is a little out of place in a film aimed at people who get their high from hunting dangerous game rather than durgs!
IMO, Razor is a nutcase, if hunting dangerous game or tit mouse! One elephant wasted!

Same old words of wisdom from a bunch of folks that have not been there and do not know what they are talking about.

The parties involved have posted previously that this was not a bowhunt for elephant.They were on a PG hunt and stumbled into the elephant. Client was not prepared for elephant and did not intend to try and shoot one.

That being said, elephant with a bow is doable with the right hunter and PH and under the right circumstance.

As to JB resorting to a rifle, I see no difference in his actions than that of a hunter changing his choice of weapons when going in to sort out a leopard that was shot less than perfectly. Things did not go perfectly and so he adjusted his methods to prevent injury to the hunters and to insure a rapid demise of the animal hunted. I admire him for doing so.

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
The client appeared to be confirming in his mind that he did not have "enough gun" for the task of dispatching Mr. Jumbo.

I sincerely do not understand the mentality of "bow and arrow" shooting for an elephant. Buzz Charlton's DVD shows a very respected bow hunter trying to take an elephant with a bow (90lb bow at that). He quickly takes a rifle to finish the job.

Dogcat
You are referring to me. Be sure that this shot is brewing in my head. The setting was almost perfect and we had managed to select the only clear window throughout which I could shoot. Only a tiny stem was in the way and was enough to deflect the arrow by almost 2 yards on the left and downway. Or was it the silencer hit by the fletching. I was using a 100# Bowtech.

Jean B.,
No offense intended. You are an excellent hunter based on what I have read and seen of you. You made one heck of an effort to take an elephant with a bow. Your shot, using an 90lb pull bow was hard. I saw the DVD and the arrow was deflected. I appreciated seeing your reaction and committment to follow up, using a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Same old words of wisdom from a bunch of folks that have not been there and do not know what they are talking about.

The parties involved have posted previously that this was not a bowhunt for elephant.They were on a PG hunt and stumbled into the elephant. Client was not prepared for elephant and did not intend to try and shoot one.

That being said, elephant with a bow is doable with the right hunter and PH and under the right circumstance.

As to JB resorting to a rifle, I see no difference in his actions than that of a hunter changing his choice of weapons when going in to sort out a leopard that was shot less than perfectly. Things did not go perfectly and so he adjusted his methods to prevent injury to the hunters and to insure a rapid demise of the animal hunted. I admire him for doing so.

Eyedoc,
I applaud Jean for switching to a rifle. I admire him as you do. He did the right thing.

If you watch the 1950's version of Tarzan you will see Ganayna (snr) shooting an ele with a bow. He was the stand in for the film hero (being tall, blond and able to pull a 120lb recurve).

I have backed several hunters on bow/ele hunts and stand by the legistlation I drafted (SI 11 of 1998) no compind bow under 100lb draw weight shooting a 750grn arrow should be considered for ele.

I consider shooting an ele with a bow comparible to what my uncle did- he used a 6mm for all his poaching and his grave can be seen next to the railway as you travel from vic falls to Byo.

I am a known small bore fanatic. A .308 beats any bow I have ever used. (and before you comment, bear in mind I was Rhodesian Archery Junior champion! and have hunted with a bow since I was 11)

quote:

his grave can be seen next to the railway as you travel from vic falls to Byo.

Questions:

1. what do you suppose is the Ivory weight on this elephant?

2. What are the rules? Does the client have to pay for that bull the PH shot? Is the client allowed to hunt a second bull?

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
If you watch the 1950's version of Tarzan you will see Ganayna (snr) shooting an ele with a bow. He was the stand in for the film hero (being tall, blond and able to pull a 120lb recurve).

I have backed several hunters on bow/ele hunts and stand by the legistlation I drafted (SI 11 of 1998) no compind bow under 100lb draw weight shooting a 750grn arrow should be considered for ele.

I consider shooting an ele with a bow comparible to what my uncle did- he used a 6mm for all his poaching and his grave can be seen next to the railway as you travel from vic falls to Byo.

I am a known small bore fanatic. A .308 beats any bow I have ever used. (and before you comment, bear in mind I was Rhodesian Archery Junior champion! and have hunted with a bow since I was 11)

Ganyana, I couldn't care less if he hunts elephant with a bar room dart! What I object to is his filming, and drug induced background music, and wall paper! No matter if he was hunting the elephant or not, the elephant was still wasted!

I too have hunted with a bow all my life till I had a bad shoulder accident, and can no longer pull a heavy bow. I still have my archery equipment, however.

Still, and though ele can, and have been taken with bows, I wouldn't try it myself, even if I could. Ele have been taken, for meat, for centuries with spears by the locals,why not with a modern bow, if that floats your boat?

[/QUOTE]
Only a tiny stem was in the way and was enough to deflect the arrow by almost 2 yards on the left and downway. Or was it the silencer hit by the fletching. I was using a 100# Bowtech.

IMO, A great reason to use a big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
If you watch the 1950's version of Tarzan you will see Ganayna (snr) shooting an ele with a bow. He was the stand in for the film hero (being tall, blond and able to pull a 120lb recurve).

I have backed several hunters on bow/ele hunts and stand by the legistlation I drafted (SI 11 of 1998) no compind bow under 100lb draw weight shooting a 750grn arrow should be considered for ele.

I consider shooting an ele with a bow comparible to what my uncle did- he used a 6mm for all his poaching and his grave can be seen next to the railway as you travel from vic falls to Byo.

I am a known small bore fanatic. A .308 beats any bow I have ever used. (and before you comment, bear in mind I was Rhodesian Archery Junior champion! and have hunted with a bow since I was 11)

If a bow (of any sort) was a viable or reliable WEAPON we'd be using them on the Taliban.

The idea that one could humanely kill an Elephant (or most anything else) with an edged weapon is absurd and speaks to the operator's and regulator's detachment from reality. Archery belongs in the Olympics and the County Fair boyz.

Maybe some of these Yahoo's should try hunting with a Zweihänder or maybe a Fairbairn-Sykes Knife if they seek some intrinsically noble path.

Here Kitty-Kitty Nice Kitty!

Thanks for Your attention.
To reinsure Ganyana I was using a 100# bow and 1050 gr arrows. Actually 96# for the more one trains oneself, the more one fears to rip off a shoulder. 96# was on the safe side. Moreover improving poundage changes settings and it results of having a powerful but inaccurate bow.
The usual answer to anti-hunters is “nobody is forced to hunt, let us aloneâ€. The same with the bow, nobody is forced to hunt with a bow. Bow is a really efficient weapon as long as one uses appropriate poundage and accurately places the arrow. Nothing different from using a rifle.
The connoisseurs do know how awesome is a potent compound. That has to be seen to be believed. In the CAR I tested my skinny 90# allegiance on the range. The background was stacks of sandbags. The arrows flew almost fully trough 2 feet of compressed sand. I was shooting at the base of the sandbags pile, the sand under a pressure of a couple of hundreds kgs. No bullets can achieve such a penetration..
In France, I bowhunt when the wind isn’t bad, say not often. Mostly I am using the rifle and the 300WM at that, what is overkill for games mostly under 100 lbs. Nevertheless I strain at admitting people using 222 or 243 calibres. This to say that I can understand people scoffing at bowhunting.
I opted for the bow in Zimbabwe because I was looking for a real challenge. bowhunt with Buzz I made plenty of inquiries asking infos even from Ganyana.Hunting with Buzz Charlton means that everything will be ironed out and unfold smoothly. Bowhunting can make the attempt harder and it’s fine for me. I like realistic challenges. Many a elephant have been bagged with the bow. No reason that the last marketed potent bow won’t do the trick.
I am now certain of the capacity of the bow and will try again with Buzz next year. I’d have loved to try this year but I strained my shoulders and had to postpone what looks like very appealing.
To answer MC, having a bow sling so as to be capable of also using a rifle isn’t possible. Totting a bow in the scrub is really a pain in the a, it catches any branches, twigs, vines… imagine it rigged with a sling.
daleW : according to Buzz’s estimation the ivory was about 40lbs, the administration weighted them about 50lbs. In fact I don’t know and don’t care. For having another elephant because I messed up, forget it. What’s is worth is the anticipation and the hard work training oneself with the bow, the hardships of the hunt, the mileage before having an opportunity and the violent surge of adrenalin and the thrill when You finally let fly. If You botch it and the PH has fun in the same time, so be it. After all a good safari is also when the PH has good time.
Next year a PAC bull with the bow : 2 conditions, 1) far from any settlement in order to not threaten outsiders, 2) shooting out of the scrub with a perfect shooting window………with the support of eyedoc, dogcat and Yukon delta.

Hunting elephant with a bow is plain fucking irresponsible stupidity, end of story!!

quote:

No bullets can achieve such a penetration..

I'm not sure if this statement holds water...

Some of the fellas in the big bore forum might disagree...

They have developed some flat nose solids that when fired from big bores 50 cal and up (that's .510 for the airline people) that are capable of staggering penetration...

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:
Hunting elephant with a bow is plain fucking irresponsible stupidity, end of story!!

Pichon1
You have the merit to clearly express your point of view.
Don’t count on me to quarrel with any Pichon, I have the utmost respect for them.
pichon 1
pichon 2

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:
Hunting elephant with a bow is plain fucking irresponsible stupidity, end of story!!

Curious, what qualifies you to make this statement? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, it is just that some are more informed than others and I am trying to determine what credibility, if any, to attach to yours.

Jean, enough respect for being able to shoot a 100# Bowtech. Before I messed my shoulder up, I could shoot a 70# bow all day, but tried pulling one at 80# once, could just do it, but was starting to contort my body in order to do so! It amazed me how much of a difference 10lbs made when you are not used to it. I would have popped a few vertebrae trying for another 20#! Those Bowtechs are very mean bows, very fast and powerful for the poundage. I reckon you should be able to get some impressive penetration with this bow and heavy arrows. I have found that twigs, branches and even grass can have quite a dramatic effect on an arrows ultimate destination, makes hunting in long grass, bushveld and woodland quite tricky. You rely on the cover, but then it also counts against you sometimes when taking a shot.

I would not dream of hunting ANYTHING with a bow and arrow.

But, I would never tell anyone else not to do it.

Elephants, as well as other animals have been taken by bow and arrow in the past.

And for those who are capable, and willing to take the risks, good luck to them.

And if we delve slightly deeper into this, we who hut elephant with a rifle also have a PH backing us up in case we screw something up.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Palos:
Let me

The guy who comes to Africa with a bow should travel by sail ship to Delagoa Bay and head to the interior with an ox cart and porters...



Now I'll sit back and take the abuse I deserve......

Just for the record, and particularly because this thing looks like it's heading for a match....my negative comments here were strictly tongue in cheek! I am too feeble to pull a 60lb bow, and as such have never been particularly interested in bow-hunting, so I am certainly NOT qualified to make any "educated" comment, save that I certainly would not go after ele with one even if I could use it. I respect anyone who gives it a go though, even though I'll still take a poke at him just for the fun of it

Guys, keep it friendly.....

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:
Hunting elephant with a bow is plain fucking irresponsible stupidity, end of story!!


Curious, what qualifies you to make this statement? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, it is just that some are more informed than others and I am trying to determine what credibility, if any, to attach to yours.

Mike

+1

I’ve hunted with everything rifles, shotguns, bows, crossbows, handguns, muzzleloaders and the bow is by far the most fun and challenging weapon that I have found. Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch I still hunt with everything else and enjoy them all and I think no less of someone else because they choose to use a gun as I often make the same choice. That being said there is a lot of animosity on here for no freaking reason. No one holds a gun to the PH or outfitter’s head and makes them take a client on a bow hunt, so in that respect it is NOT unfair to the PH. He gets his say in deciding weather to take the client or not. Also the client takes the chance that he or she will have to pay for the PH to ultimately shoot the animal out of necessity. That’s THEIR risk.

Bow hunting isn’t the same as gun hunting. It’s not even close. There’s many a trophy running around as we speak because I chose not to use a gun. And that’s fine with me because to me there's more to it than the kill. I love the challenge and derive as much pleasure from seeing animals and letting them go with the knowledge that I could have taken them if I wanted. The animal has to be infinitely closer and as discussed previously nothing can be in the way. Also the animal needs to be stopped, distracted, and perfectly broadside. Any ethical bow hunter practices at least several times a week leading up to season or a hunt (and I would hope any ethical gun hunter would practice regularly too). I know I practice with my 70# Matthews almost daily and sometimes twice a day leading up to deer season. When I bow hunt I have to be that much better at every skill of woodsman ship to be successful with a bow (which makes me that much better of a hunter over all and usually by necessity and more time in the woods I learn more about my query than I otherwise would). I have to spend more time preparing mentally and physically to be successful. I must have MANY more encounters with animals than a gun hunter on average for the hunting stars to align so that an arrow can be released. I think bow hunting has made me a better hunter and I would invite anyone who doubts me to pick up a bow and try a spot and stalk or still hunt for whitetails in the hardwoods of Ohio. I see no reason why if done with patience, ethics, and the knowledge that it is alright to go home with out a kill elephants can be hunted with a bow. I have NEVER lost a wounded animal with a bow, but I have with gun because I am SO selective with my shots with a bow.

I haven’t really thought much about taking African DG with a bow, but I do plan to take a Brown Bear with my bow when I move to Kodiak, Alaska. Just like with Jean’s elephant hunt whoever goes with me will have the choice to go and I will go knowing that the bear may have to be shot out of necessity. Who knows maybe after that I’ll tackle an elephant or cape buffalo! Good hunting Jean. I admire you and respect your pursuit!

And good hunting to ALL whatever you may use!!!!!

Brett A. Barringer

The polemic between smalll vs large calibres will be going on for ever. The same about using bow and arrow vs rifle.
I don’t want to raise any polemic. I just recommend those who have not seen a demonstration of an arrow’s penetration to be curious enough. Thanks Saeed for Your broadmindness.
Monotony fathers Boredom. Hopefully this forum is far from monotony.

On the technical side, drawing a 100# bow required time and dedication and no special stamina. I needed almost 2 years to achieve this (96#) The price to be paid is sustaining sort of sciatica caused by the constant twisting of the lumbar vertebrae.

Concerning penetration of sandbags, I doubt usual bullets will achieve it. I was using sandbags of a hunting camp and many a hunter have tried manifold bullets and none seems to have pierced the whole length of the sandbags, after all the sandbags are designed to be perfect receptacles for bullets.

Jean, might I suggest not trying to convince everyone here of the potential of broadheads? Some will never care for archery tackle and that's fine. Many of us know their high potential. Penetration is a very complicated subject as you know. If it was all about blunt force then surgeons would use hammers not scapels.

quote:

I don’t want to raise any polemic. I just recommend those who have not seen a demonstration of an arrow’s penetration to be curious enough.

I'm not trying to start any arguments either....though I do think this would be an interesting comparison/experiment...

I've always heard that an "arrow" can out penetrate a "bullet†when fired into sand....and your experiences at your shooting range showed this...but I'm not sure what arrows and bullets we’re comparing though?

I always assumed people were talking about expanding/non-solid bullets fired from medium game calibers (30-06 etc)...

Again, I'm not jumping into the whole DG with a bow argument...I too admire your dedication to prepare for such a unique hunting experience and thoroughly enjoyed reading your hunt report...

But I'd like to see a scientifically conducted comparison of the penetration of solid bullets fired from large bore rifles (.375 and up) compared to that of “super†bows like your own...

I know this may be off topic…but it would certainly not be a monotonous experiment…

Best regards,

Matt V.

quote:

No bullets can achieve such a penetration..

I see this thread is really a comedy routine.

Any Tarzan out there who want's to do arrow pennetration against bullet penetration testing can saddle up!!

Can't tell ya bout them thar ay-rows but boollets?

Wet sand - 5 + feet of compacted and contained WET sand is a no brainer.

Dry sand? Who knows maybe ten feet......more.....??

I'm happy to supply the bullets if someone wants to put together a proper test (waste their time) doing the comparison.

Does someone have a 500LB pull cross bow??

This reminds me of the Bubbas who think motorcycles are faster than cars routine.

Here's a little 505 Gibbs Bullet fired into WET sand which was then frozen!!

Left - Unfired
Center - 2400 FPS
Right - 2600 FPS
Foreground - 2400 FPS Woodleigh Soft

I always wondered what an "acid trip" would be like... now I know.

Again, sage words from Saeed. I was thinking the exact same thing.