I know the response will vary based on country/place, but I always wondered:

Say you are a guy of average means out hunting plains game in an area where there is dangerous game. You have scrimped and saved and while you can afford the hunt + tips, etc., you certainly cannot afford the trophy fee for say an elephant of buffalo. What happens if you have no choice but to shoot a charging/attacking animal? Are you held to a trophy fee by the country or outfitter? Does the government expect compensation for the downed animal? Is there an exception for this kind of kill?

While no one is going to worry about the price of a kill versus their own life in an attack situation, I wonder how big of a financial hole a person has dug themself in that kind of situation.

In Zim, on Parks land, it had better be within ten yards with no retreat possible, or so I have been told any number of times.

I stopped a charging bull in Nyakasanga at less than ten yards. The bull escaped. We caught the whole episode on camera, which I thought would make our case. But the Warden saw the bull and said, "He has very nice ivory. Would you be here claiming self defense if you had killed him? Or would you have charged him against your quota?" That was a hard arguement to overcome. We weren't hunting the bull, he came upwind for us. But the PH got a look at him and thought he would pass us by and said, "He's a fifty pounder, side brain him if you have the chance."

We lost that arguement, and though it cost me a lot of money, I have to say that the Warden's arguement was excellent. We wouldn't have been worried about having shot the bull in self defense if I had brained him properly.

On private land in Zim, where the game is owned by the land owner, we needed to kill a charging cow elephant. We stopped her at seven paces. The land owner included a trophy fee for the cow equal to the trophy fee of a tuskless cow in the final talley.

It raised an eyebrow, but I thought about it and didn't complain, since the event was one of the most intense and enjoyable events of my life - after the fact - and the trophy fee wasn't onerous.

The land owner is a good guy and straight shooter, but a known tight wad too.

JPK

Thanks for your reply, JPK. Truth be told, what you just described is a huge fear for me. I'm not a guy of incredible means and a safari in a place like Zim would be a pretty significant cost upgrade over what I paid to hunt RSA. I can't imagine getting magically stuck with a 5+ figure bill if I had to fire in self-defense. It makes me think that even hunting plains game in a country like Zim is just too risky for someone like me.

I have never bee n to Africa, will probably never go, but from what I have read on the AR and the people I have talked to personally that have been, the odds of getting into a sticky situation with any DG, on a Plains Game hunt done by any of the reputable PH's is pretty remote.

Guides/Outfitters/PH's make their living for the most part in providing their clients with safe and memorable hunts.

They know the areas they hunt, and I really doubt any PH worth his salt, is going to take a client strictly hunting Plains Game into an area where a run in with a big nasty would be a real possibility.

Also, should it happen that you were confronted by any of the big guys on a hunt, your PH and his staff are well experienced on ways to avoid having to make a shot, and should something go sideways, you, as the client, would be the last person pulling the trigger on one of those critters.

This is all JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Luis L.:
Thanks for your reply, JPK. Truth be told, what you just described is a huge fear for me. I'm not a guy of incredible means and a safari in a place like Zim would be a pretty significant cost upgrade over what I paid to hunt RSA. I can't imagine getting magically stuck with a 5+ figure bill if I had to fire in self-defense. It makes me think that even hunting plains game in a country like Zim is just too risky for someone like me.

Luis,

I would disagree. If you're not hunting elephants and you rely on your PH, you will be fine. If he tells you to shoot you will be fine.

I like to hunt elephants, and I like to be close. That is a recipe for the inevitable trouble, which is otherwise not overly likely.

In both of the cases I wrote about, if we hadn't been elephant hunting and the same event had occurred, in neither case would there have been any costs added. But we were hunting elephants in both cases. We got a little more than we were looking for in the charges, but really, not much. Screw aroung with elephants enough, get close often enough and you are bound to have trouble, we were asking for it, litterally as well as figuratively.

BTW, based on the last time I looked at prices, the cost of a plains game safari in Zim was in line with a similar hunt in SA, or at least not way out of line. And depending on the area, you will have elephants, buff and lion to observe.

JPK

Thanks for the clarification guys. In the case of most Zim outfitters I looked at while casually browsing the net, the daily rates seems to be about 30% or more higher while the trohpy fees (depending on the animal, of course) were sometimes slightly lower than those in RSA. I know a quick net search isn't an exhaustive way to get accurate pricing, but it was the ballpark I had available.

As for the elephant hunting experience, that sounds like a helluva good time. I can see why they would make you pay if you shot an elephant while actually pursing them vs. hunting plains game and getting charged out of nowhere.

As to answering your question, what I was told by both me Zim and Zambian PH's is that if you legitimately shoot the animal in self defense and the parks or game folks, including the game scout agree that it was indeed a self defense shooting, it would be no charge to you (although sometimes if the situation is bad enough the PH will be fined for screwing up that badly)

However, you would not get any part of the trophy, and the officials would confiscate the carcass.

That applied to Zambia and all of the government safari concessions in Zim.

The usual course was it was such a bother that the company usually would prefer to use any available quota and have you pay the going trophy fee (I understand this is negotiable) if there was any available. Private land would be different, but if you couldn't pay, I doubt they would charge you anyhow again, assuming it truely was self defense, and not putting yourself in the way to try and get a free animal, just don't expect a trophy if you don't pay for it. And you sure as heck would not get a lion, elephant, or leopard trophy without paying.

I'm sure one of the Zim or Zambian PH's could clarify this to the "legal" wording, and each country has its own laws. Just like here in the US, if you bust a bear that you don't have a tag for, the F&W folks take it, and investigate the heck out of you.

I have never understood this nonsense about distance being the be-all and end-all when facing the charge of an animal that can and may kill you.

I leave my measuring tape at home, both for trophies, and for deciding when my life is in danger.

Fine distinctions be damned. The wildlife authorities of a third world nation are not going to support my family after I'm dead.

I will shoot, then measure (if forced to do so) and pay any bills that may ensue - later, when still alive - and preferably over a fine Cabernet Sauvignon.

Remember the old saying?

Better tried by twelve than carried by six?

True words.

Many elephant charges that look in every aspect as if they are for real are actually bluffs. The problem is that you can't accurately distinguish between the two and you only know its a bluff when the ele stops.

The ten yard limit to self defense shootings comes more from the elephants' behavior than some completely arbitrary beauraucratic decision, I think. Lots of those for all the world "real" looking bluff charges end up with the elephant stopping at about ten or fifteen yards.

Ten yards is close, but not that close. Still plenty of time to stop an elephant. Not much time if your first shot is so far off the mark that it fails to either brain the elephant, stop it or turn it though. IMO, a good damn reason for a big gun.

I have to say, that if I was in doubt, and I thought that my life was in danger and the elephant might not be ten yards or less, I would shoot first and take LONG paces second.

I have had brave gamescouts - for the most part - and some runners too. No elephant, ten yards or even closer, is as terrifying as the sound of an AK or SSK being chambered behind you!

JPK

If threatened I will shoot first and worry about sorting out the legal mess later. That is much better than being stomped gored or chewed in my book.

I still remember in the earlier part of my career, whilst hunting Gov't concessions, our game scout who accompanied us every day,was usually an honest and trustworthy fellow.

I had on occasion to use the fellow TWICE on the same safari, in explaining why we had shot two buffalo on two different days, both in a full on charge!!

His and my separate renditions of the incident to the Game Warden were accepted as being factual, and our actions were in fact necessary. We had acted well within our rights.

The case was closed, and no fines or penalties were instituted.

We have come along way from those honest Gov't employees, who performed their duties with dignity, enthusiasm and honesty. Bribery and corruption wasn't a part of their vocabulary.

I had an incident in 2006 in Tanzania, where we had to shoot elephant. I submitted my affidavit of events which were subsequently corroborated by the Game Scout. The Game Dep't however still felt we should pay the $5000 fine; ( I still believe the operator I was working for was screwing us).

My client had said he would assist in paying 50%, and I would pay the other 50% - should we have to......as it turned out the full trophy fee was paid (which allowed the client to keep the trophy) PLUS we were forced to pay 80% of the penalty, which the company owner would "gladly" pay over !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:

I had an incident in 2006 in Tanzania, where we had to shoot elephant. I submitted my affidavit of events which were subsequently corroborated by the Game Scout. The Game Dep't however still felt we should pay the $5000 fine; ( I still believe the operator I was working for was screwing us).

My client had said he would assist in paying 50%, and I would pay the other 50% - should we have to......as it turned out the full trophy fee was paid (which allowed the client to keep the trophy) PLUS we were forced to pay 80% of the penalty, which the company owner would "gladly" pay over !!!!

I am a bit unclear. Did you have to pay the trophy fee plus 80% of the $5,000 fine? And how was the operator screwing you? Was he receiving a kick-back?

I ended up where I am sitting in the photo, after retreating about 2 yards. I actually tripped over a stick on which the elephant fell, just as I was taking the shot. The client can be seen to the right, he did the right thing, waited for me to fire, when there was no more hope of getting out of the situation undamaged. (He shot his trophy bull seconds earlier, and the 2 remaining bulls made a hasty retreat about 20 yards to our right. This one saw us, swung his head, and came.)
In the end, after a lot of (neccicary) paperwork, this bull was declared a problem elephant.

I think in such a situation, if you have 100% trust in your PH (which you should have from the start anyway), it is better to wait and let him make the call if and when to shoot.

JBrown - he was connected,and was angling to get a share of the fines money, eliminating the need forpaperwork.

The client put in a request to pay the full trophy fee for export (the hunt had a story for his grandchildren), when Game dep't agreed, it all went quiet for a while,until we were told to pay 80% of the fine as well - no receipts !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
I think in such a situation, if you have 100% trust in your PH (which you should have from the start anyway), it is better to wait and let him make the call when or if to shoot.

No doubt that trusting your PH and following his lead is the way to go. But there will be situations where the hunter would have to shoot first. Thick jess or bush and an elephant coming in from the side would be an example.

Fortunately, I have hunted with two PH's who viewed this as a two way street and because we were in very thick jess with lots of cows about told me to shoot if I thought I needed to.

Didn't need to shoot on either of those occassions in the jess, though we had eles within a few yards both places. But with one of those PH's we needed to stop a cow in the Save Conservancy, and after she didn't stop after he fired over her head, he told me to shoot her. Two more steps and I would have shot her regardless though.

JPK

JBrown - screwing us.....he was a personal friend and good client of many years standing. My loyalties were with my client.

End of subject.

JPK, of course there would be situations with merit where the client has to shoot, either on his own decision, or on instruction by his PH. The problem is, that most elephant hunters are not as experienced as you are, (hell, a lot of PH's are not as experienced!), and might shoot too soon, or unneccicary. Another reason to hunt elephant with a experienced PH only...!

JBrown,

The most commonly applied Tanzanian game laws state that in the event of an unlicenced or inappropriate animal be shot the game dept can decide on the penalty but it can be up to the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee plus the trophy fee. On top of that they may if they so decide confiscate the trophy and suspend or terminate the PHs licence.

Matters are confused further that there are currently 4 sets of game laws with 2 written in English and the other 2 in Ki-Swahili and they all contradict each other. The Ki-Swahili ones state that in the case of the acts contradicting each other, the English acts rule..... however, that doesn't always happen.

Even getting into the Ivory Rooms in Dar can be a drama in itself and if you can't get in, you can't see anyone to argue your case.

You also have to bear in mind that the Tanzanian game laws are also a stuff up in some ways. For example, damn near every croc that has ever been shot since the acts were introduced in the 60s was technically illegal because whoever listed the species that may be shot in or in close proximity to water, forgot to list crocodile.

All camps in Game Reserves could also be questioned because the act states that you may not cut a tree or a branch etc and that's what camps are largely made of.

I'm told a new act is in the offing and I sincerely hope it's more sensible than the existing ones.

Incidentally, as a matter of interest. The Uganda set up is considerably more user friendly in that you can just walk into the game offices there and speak to the relevant game dept staff who are always happy to see you and willing to find time to discuss things with you. They're proud of their country and their new hunting industry and they want to do whatever they can to see it succeed. The game laws are also considerably more sensible!

in alaska after the bear has killed and eaten you, you are allowed to shoot it

I should have added that in pretty much all African countries (that allow sport hunting) the game acts allow for and mostly require the PH to kill any animal in defence of human life..... however, he'd better be damn sure the shooting was justified AND be able to prove to the game dept it was justified.

I have benn envolved with two elephant charges were the animal had to be shot. One was at Charisa a Gov't safari area and the other at Omay south, a communal land area. My PH on the Carisa hunt was an exparks ranger and nknew the law well. Since this was my first elephant hunt, he took considerable time to explain to me the difference between a mock and serious charge (that's the kind where they don't stop).
When the charge occured, there was no doubt in my mind that this was a serious charge and we shot when the tusked cow was 6 paces away, well within the 10 meter limit required for defense shooting. As JPK said if they don't stop by 10 yards they probably won't and you can't really take the chance that they will stop. In this case, I did not have a tusked cow on quota and there was no charge to me or the Safari Company for that elephant. The second case occured on Communal lands and was a repeat of the first, including the distance when it was stopped and turned. It also was a tusked cow. In this case I did have a two tusked cows on license but this one was not counted on that license. I would not be too concerened about what will happen. If it isn't an animal that you have booked for, your not going to be charged for it. At least that has been mmy experience. Go and enjoy it. To those that say I will shoot a chargeing animal if I think it is necessary, I say be careful. You may end costing the PH a heavy fine or the loss of his license. How will you reimburse him for the loss of his livlehood? Unless you have a lot of exoeriense on elephants and have a very good understanding of elephant behavior, you are not qualified to determine if your life really is in danger.

The trophy fee on bulls is the highest and for cows in is very reasonable if you have to pay it. Fortunately, bulls are the least likely to charge. The closer you are to any elephant when it senses you the more likely it is to charge but even here bulls will almost always opt to retreat. Cows are an entirely different story. The closer you get to them the more likely an adult cow will charge and the odds of that are really high. Some PHs seem to get a lot more charges than others. I think that is because some pHs will take you much closer to cow herds than others. One of the best PHs that I have sen in avoiding such charges is George Hallamore. When we are hunting tuskless we seldom ever approach closer than 30 or 40 yards at which distance he will glass the herd to look for tuskless. When we do approach to take a known tuskless in the herd we wait until we can approach and shoot from a relatively safe distance of 15 to 25 yards. After the tuskless is down we immediately back off and give the herd time to leave the area. Why? Because the most dangerous time for a charge is after you have taken your animal out the other cows come to protect the herd and if you are too close and they see or hear you they will charge. LuisL, I realy think you are worrying to much about something that is a very rare occurrence. It's like worrying about getting run over when you cross a street. You only think about it when you cross the street. Don't let it rob you of the enjoyment of hunting Africa.

465H&H

Always heard the same thing when I spent some time up there. Better have some teeth and claw marks on you (deep ones!) LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
in alaska after the bear has killed and eaten you, you are allowed to shoot it

Wow - excellent information all-around, guys. 456H&H, thank you very much for the input. You are right in that I wouldn't want to cheat myself of a great hunting experience for fear of anything. Hell, everything involves a level of risk. I just want to get a grasp for the fallout in a situation where self-defense is the only option.

Understand my point of view from a perspective of a guy who just has no grasp of what an elephant hunt is like, or any DG hunt for that matter. My only African hunting experience is a single plains game hunt in the Eastern Cape and that came just a couple of months back.

I hope I never get myself or anyone else in trouble if I get the chance to go on a hunt like the one's you've described, but I think it goes without saying that if you genuinely - in a primal sense - feel your life is threatened, you shoot.

Luis L.

As JPK said if you are not intentionally hunting elephant or buffalo your chances of having an encounter that involves shooting an animals in self defense are extremely slim. In fact a charge in general is pretty unlikely. It would not be in my opinion a legitimate reason to not book a plains game hunt in an area where you might find DG.

A plainsgame hunt for instance on the Save Valley Conservancy in Zim will expose you to the Big 4 while you are hunting the plains game at plains game rates. These hunts are more expensive than the least expensive RSA plains game hunts but actually less expensive than the top end RSA hunts. In my opinion these Zim hunts offer far more value for the dollar than you will find in RSA.

Mark

Mark -

Thanks, as always, for the great info. I am actually going out to RSA again in 2011 to shoot a DVD revolving around a beginner's perspective on plains game hunting, but I have Zim in the back of my mind as a follow-on destination once I get that second hutning experinece under my belt. It's good to know the way the pricing works and even better to expand your horizons outside the scope of just one country.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
No elephant, ten yards or even closer, is as terrifying as the sound of an AK or SSK being chambered behind you!

JPK

Man you got that right. It's only happenned to me twice and I damn near jumped out of my skin both times.

Dean

Luis.
I had this same question talked over with my outfitter for my 2011 plain games safari in Nambiba.
We will be hunting out of two different camps, the first one with Namib desert elephans roaming the Huab river, and the second one bordering Etosha and where lions are often seen out of the Etosha National Park.

He said that if we bump into elephants and the shit hit the fan and he starts shooting, I am free to follow up.
For comfort and security he recommend to bring some solids.

For me elephants and lion defenately add spice to my plains game hunt, and I see the chances of an serious encounter very very slim.

Originally posted by JPK:
No elephant, ten yards or even closer, is as terrifying as the sound of an AK or SSK being chambered behind you!

Or having the pleasure of the AK fired from behind next to your head! Happened to me at Deka in 2006. I'll take the ele head-on any day vs. a trigger happy, shit scared game scout.

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:
Luis.
I had this same question talked over with my outfitter for my 2011 plain games safari in Nambiba.
We will be hunting out of two different camps, the first one with Namib desert elephans roaming the Huab river, and the second one bordering Etosha and where lions are often seen out of the Etosha National Park.

Are you hunting with Johann at Shona Hunting Adventures?

I could write a book on this one…well at least a chapter!

There is a wealth of insight above provided by those who have experienced charges, and I won’t repeat what has already been stated. One addition I’d like to make though, is that as a visiting sports hunter, it is very difficult to determine if/when to shoot. When there is some time, ideally the hunter and the PH talk about the situation, and he can give some directions like “Don’t shoot until I do”, or “If they come, don’t wait for me”. In these situations, I try to position myself a foot or so back from the PH, so that we are side by side, but I still can see him from the corner of my eye and follow his lead.

Other times the situation is fluid, or develops way too fast for much of anything, as I just experienced, twice. It is this last scenario that can be problematic for a visiting hunter, as the “Do I shoot or not” thought consumes valuable mental processing time, time you may not have. One must not over-react and start blasting. But, the PH may not always be in position to shoot (bad angle, you are in the way, gun jammed, etc). One must use their best judgment and first and foremost not get killed. If you are caught solo, as can happen, take care of business.

This being said, I went thru 12 safaris (11 of which were in dangerous game concessions) before experiencing a real charge...plenty of mocks and vehicle charges, sometimes we stood our ground and other times we retreated, but nothing that required shooting, noting this included lots of time in the bush hunting elephant. The goal is to be responsible, and not put yourself in a situation where a charge can reasonably be expected to occur. Still, it can happen.

As was stated above, if you are not hunting elephant or buffalo, a charge is unlikely, and it would always be my preference to hunt plainsgame in an area where there is dangerous game present. Your analysis of the if/then scenarios is prudent, and I’d suggest having this same conversation with whoever you end up hunting with, specific to the concession you will be hunting. One thing is for sure, no PH wants to have to shoot an animal in self defense.

Two brief anecdotes will illustrate my point.

I was charged by a zebra in very thick brush. I am not kidding. I had wounded the zebra and he was pissed. This is not a joke. I fired the only shot, a hip shot from about five paces, and dropped him. My PH (Pedro de Sa e Mello) was behind me and could do nothing, even had there been time for it. There were trackers between us. All they did was shout, "Piga! Piga! Piga!" That zebra was bad luck.

So, it's not only DG that you have to worry about.

Then again, I have also been charged by a lion. It was sort of a Napoleonic set piece. I had wounded him, too. My PH (Vaughan Fulton) and I knew exactly where the lion was, and we walked up on him, face to face.

He got up from under a thorn bush, grunted a deep, rumbling roar, and launched at us from 20 yards away.

We raised our rifles and fired simultaneously. We dropped him in his tracks. We didn't talk about what to do. We just did it. That lion was trouble.

I will trust my PH, certainly. But I will also trust my instincts - in case of bad luck or trouble - and willingly pay the piper if I'm wrong.

Like so many things in life, for me, the key in these situations is communication. I had a video clip posted on this site of a charge that we (Buzz Charlton and I) experienced in December. In the video clip two things are clear, (1) Buzz was communicating with me throughout, and (2) I was communicating with Buzz. This despite the fact that the whole event takes place in five to ten seconds. In the clip Buzz can clearly be heard telling me to stay with him. The worst thing that can happen in a situation like that is for everyone to be running in mulitple directions. It becomes impossible for the PH to try to maintain control of the situation. Also in the clip you can clearly hear me shouting to Buzz and asking if it is okay to shoot, to which Buzz replies, yes and then I fire, he fires and I fire again. From my perspective what this hightlights is that it is incumbent upon the PH and the hunter to do their best to communicate with one another, circumstances permitting. Not to say that will solve all problems, but it goes along way towards avoiding unintended consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
JPK, of course there would be situations with merit where the client has to shoot, either on his own decision, or on instruction by his PH. The problem is, that most elephant hunters are not as experienced as you are, (hell, a lot of PH's are not as experienced!), and might shoot too soon, or unneccicary. Another reason to hunt elephant with a experienced PH only...!

Karl,

Re hunting with a PH with elephant experience, yes, indeed!

The thought of an inexperienced hunter and an inexperienced PH togehter gives me the willies.

One reason that I don't ever object to an Appy coming along is that everyone has to start from zero, whether as a hunter or an Appy PH.

JPK

Here is my philosophy:

if it is a wounded animal,I will take the shot whether it is five yards and coming toward me or 100 yards running in the opposite direction. If is an unwounded elephant and it charges I will read its behavior and if I think it is a mock charge, I will hold off until he gets within 10 yards. If it crosses that line and still coming toward me I will shoot unless the PH gives me good reason not to. On a lion make that 15 yards as they travel so fast, I might not have time for a second shot even though I use a double. If it is a hippo, also 15 yards as they usually don't mock charge at least not up close.

465H&H

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by dla69:
Are you hunting with Johann at Shona Hunting Adventures?

Yes, will hunt with Johann / Shone Hunting Adventures in April 2011.

The scariest thing in Africa is the game scout behind you, armed with a worn out AK47 with 6 rounds in a 30 round magazine. Sticky situations with DG have never bothered me, and I've had my share, but the AK is a devastating weapon and I've seen the results of what they can do to the human body more times than I care to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The scariest thing in Africa is the game scout behind you, armed with a worn out AK47 with 6 rounds in a 30 round magazine

Ain't that the truth!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:

quote:

Originally posted by dla69:
Are you hunting with Johann at Shona Hunting Adventures?

Yes, will hunt with Johann / Shone Hunting Adventures in April 2011.

Johann will take great care of you. When I was there last year, the elephants were at the lodge when we were hunting at the tent camp. When we got there all that was left of them were tracks and fresh piles of dung.

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:
For me elephants and lion defenately add spice to my plains game hunt, and I see the chances of an serious encounter very very slim.

Hunting plains game in Namibia the chances of having a near death close encounter with a big DG critter is pretty slim.

Hunting the thick Jesse of the Zambezi valley it becomes exponentially less slim.

I've had to run from elephants once out of my two Zimbabwe hunts. That's 50% of the Zim hunts I've been on that I've had to run for my life.

I've also had to back out of an inadvertent elephant encounter in Tanzania at port arms. We didn't have to shoot one but it was a very tense several minutes before the girls decided to not squish us.

Luis L,

To shoot an animal in self defense here in Zambia one simply has to make a statement to the Area Warden and the Game scout who is monitoring the safari will simply endorse this.