This is my 4000th post on AR. I like the site and participate. I shout my opinion regularly. However, in all sincerity, I am changing my long held opinion on canned lions in South Africa. I talked at length to a good friend from RSA who is raising lions for this purpose. His points -

1. The plains game market is completely flat and saturated in RSA. Few people are making any decent money.

2. Lions are expensive to raise and to feed, however, if you have the animals from hunting operations, you have feed.

3. Lions generate 10x the revenue over plains game.

4. There are/were about 1200 lions shot in RSA last year with less than a 100 shot in the rest of Africa. With this option, pressure is off the truly wild lions.

5. RSA has a strong professional hunter/game ranch association that is working pro-actively with the government to manage lion shooting "properly". The rules are set or being set and it should make this less of a caged lion shoot vs a penned raised lion that is turned into a paddock for 1 year or more, then hunted/shot.

6. This is not different than rhino shooting and the practice has increased the value and availability of rhinos to those that want to shoot one. It is controlled and monitored closely.

So with that all said, I am now switching to the "pro" side of this debate. I would not want to hunt a lion in RSA or a rhino for that matter. I will not participate but I hope this is successful and the pressure on truly wild lions is lowered.

Let the cannon shots commence!

How does this "lower the pressure"? Lion quotas are set by the conservation people in each country. The quota setting process does not take into consideration what RSA is doing with canned lions. All the captive breeding program does is lower the price of lion hunts, and allow those that would otherwise not be able to hunt a lion, to do so (even if in a compromised manner). Not to mention giving trophy hunting a lot of bad PR, and our opponents a lot of ammo.

Dogcat,

He maybe a good mate but he is talking out of his backside. Zambia shoots 100 or so Lions a year and has been consistantly doing this from the 50's. Not sure about Zim or Tanzania? USA funded research has shown that there is very little evidence of pressure from safari hunting and if you shoot lone males then it makes no difference to the social structure of the pride. Now and again you may shoot a pride male who has gone walk about and this is regretable.


The breeding of any animal for sport whether it be Lion or common Duiker is fine by me as long as the hunter knows full well what he is getting into.

By all means advertise canned or farmed Lions and there is a market for it and yes it does contribute to the economy etc but do not try and disguise this as 'I have a Lion from the Kruger that jumped the fence and is eating all my cattle etc'.

Conclusion - If you buy and shoot a canned Lion then so be it and wear the T shirt but do not pretend it to be anything else. That would be a lie.

quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
When the PH does not carry a back up rifle on a lion hunt, I was bit scepticle.


Who said he was a PH?

He might have been the zoo keeper!

quote:

4. There are/were about 1200 lions shot in RSA last year with less than a 100 shot in the rest of Africa.

In Tanzania alone are up to 250 lions taken every year. I think this is are more than ZIM, Mocampique, Namibia and Zambia can provide together.

Dogcat, I admire your stance! Perhaps we can now get the real arguments out in the open. I think the most telling is that these are being sold (as I understand it) as real wild lion hunts (as the example above stated, the lion jumped the fence and is eating my cattle). This seems similar to some of the (farm) bison hunts in the USA. In addition, the animal has no fear of humans (it seems), is pretty tame ie. doesn't know what to do when shot(!), and may be drugged. plus of course, these are LIONS, perhaps the ultimate DG, who some say, deserve better, but not quite the "choosing how to die" of some people.
Peter.

It seems to me that all high fence lion hunting is being lumped together. I don't think they should be.

Some bad things have surely happened including:
1-Shooting lions in cages.
2-Shooting lions in very small areas.
3-Drugging
4-Starving
5-Lying about the lion (crawled under/over the fence or it is a maneater etc)
6-Turning out the lion the night before.

None of these are acceptable to me personally. They may be to others.

However some of these hunts are not like that. They have cats that are roaming around on large areas for extended periods of time. I am sorry but that doesn't seem to be in the same universe as the situations listed above to me. I have a hell of a lot less problem with that.

To each his own.

The only way I will be critical is if it is misrepresented by the hunter.

On my point 4 above, the numbers I quoted were from my friend. I did not try to verify. I am not casting doubts on the other numbers quoted above about lion kills, but I am not sure about the "250" in Tanzania. Maybe Mark Young or some others could comment on lion quotas.

Also, I view the lion hunts in RSA the same way I view the "European pheasant" shoots in the US. For those not familiar with this - a group of 25 or so shooters are ringed around a hill and pheasants are launched into the air via an air cannon or spring board, and induced to fly off the hill into the line of fire of the pheasant shooters. Typically, 100 to 300 pheasants are launched and shot at. It is not often called a hunt but rather a "shoot".

Anyway, this is caged hunting at its worst. The concept of shooting lions after they have been released for 1 year or so is much like the high fenced "exotic" hunts in Texas. Animals are bought at an auction, turned out and shot. Some outfits raise their own and you are actually hunting native born animals - however, it is still behind a fence. I have done this and found it extremely easy and mildly difficult. I have yet to spent more than a day looking for the species offered. Is it hunting? No, not in my book. Hence I no longer do it. However, if the same ethical stance is applied to pheasants or game ranch animals - lions can be included. I see no greater value in a lion versus a pheasant. They are both creatures and we, as humans have place economic value on them. Hence, they are are raised and shot for "sport" but more so for MONEY.

I pass on this but others are open to give it a go.

By the way, I much prefer the 3 pheasant limit in South Dakota chasing wild as heck birds verses the launched variety and am willing to pay for it.

My problem and the point of my stupid poem is that the lion hunt (at least on t.v.) was marketed as a "real" lion hunt, instead of what it was.

Dogcat,
I'm completely on your side and this thing has been debated to death on hear, but no matter what you say, most people on here will disagree with you.

Previous debates! http://forums.accuratereloadin...021053021#1021053021

I love the fact that you mentioned, the idea that lions are no different from any other animal, I assure you, someone will challenge you on that idea, because those are the same words I've used in the past.

Fair Game- we've had our scuffles in the past, but I don't believe the numbers of hunters shooting 100 lion a year in Zam are correct. If you reference this article

http://www.conservationforce.o...unting_lion_2006.pdf page 14 you will find a list of exported lion from multiple countries. Up to 2004...

I also am in the boat of not having a problem with what other people do with their money. I also could care less if Joe Blow shoots a South African Lion in a pen and tells everyone how it was shot in the wild in Tanzania (heck I know a guy who told me the Lion he just shot 2 years ago and got back from the taxidermist was shot in Kenya...)

I could really care less what you do if its legal, and if you want to impress me with a made up story, fine. I usually just nod and if I realize its made up, let you natter on about it.

By the way, Dogcat, the vast majority of pheasant hunts in South Dakota have additional stocked birds on them- public land being a major exception, unless even then you are near a big private outfit. Its just that they are not fenced and usually are let go a few weeks before hand.

Its much closer to put and take than you might want to admit.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I view the "European pheasant" shoots in the US. For those not familiar with this - a group of 25 or so shooters are ringed around a hill and pheasants are launched into the air via an air cannon or spring board, and induced to fly off the hill into the line of fire of the pheasant shooters. Typically, 100 to 300 pheasants are launched and shot at. It is not often called a hunt but rather a "shoot".

By the way, I much prefer the 3 pheasant limit in South Dakota chasing wild as heck birds verses the launched variety and am willing to pay for it.

Shit dogcat, what you describe there would not even be legal in most of europe, and frowned at by most of us anyway.
I have a suggestion could you not convince those people to call it an american live clay show down instead, i as an european is actually a bit insulted by that name

best

peter

P.S if you are in europe in the hunting season, contact me and i will take you out with my GSP and we will get the pheasant as it should be done

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I view the "European pheasant" shoots in the US. For those not familiar with this - a group of 25 or so shooters are ringed around a hill and pheasants are launched into the air via an air cannon or spring board, and induced to fly off the hill into the line of fire of the pheasant shooters. Typically, 100 to 300 pheasants are launched and shot at. It is not often called a hunt but rather a "shoot".

By the way, I much prefer the 3 pheasant limit in South Dakota chasing wild as heck birds verses the launched variety and am willing to pay for it.

Shit dogcat, what you describe there would not even be legal in most of europe, and frowned at by most of us anyway.
I have a suggestion could you not convince those people to call it an american live clay show down instead, i as an european is actually a bit insulted by that name

best

peter

P.S if you are in europe in the hunting season, contact me and i will take you out with my GSP and we will get the pheasant as it should be done

You mean it is just a step below "pheasant hunting" is in England?

Where pheasants are bred, and released at the shoot?

saeed

i think that mecanical catapulting birds into the air, with pegs standing at 360 degrees around the tower, as compaired to danish law that states that pens have to be opened in aug. and shoting starts in okt. and a gamekeeper is valued for his craft with how the birds fly and his abbility to keep them on the grounds.

YES there is a HUGE step between the two

to me at least it would be the same step between lion shooting in SA with either killing an animal in a pen that squares 30 x 30 meters or shooting it in a 10,000 hektar game fence, where it has been allowed to roam for a year or so. still shootin but to very different ways of doing it.

best

peter

quote:

as compaired to danish law that states that pens have to be opened in aug. and shoting starts in okt. and a gamekeeper is valued for his craft with how the birds fly and his abbility to keep them on the grounds.

I don't know about Europe, but the US is covered up in "upland gamebird farms" that put and take pheasant, chukar, quail and others on a daily basis. In other words, hunters will be here at noon, at ten a herd of bird boys go out and stick the purchased amount of birds under bushes and logs for the dogs and "hunters" to come find. Some use these facilities to train dogs in a realistic controlled environment, but many view it as actual hunting and entertainment.

that would be against the law in denmark, and you can actually see the difference in the way the birds fly, it might be fun( i have not tried it) if the game keeper is good enough he can actually keep the birds in the grounds even though they are not hindred in their movement by fences.

i have done a lot of shoots here in denmark and abroad, so i dont get all exicted about it but it is a nice way to spend a day with friends.

for actuall bird HUNTING i resort to partrigde snipe and woodcock over pointers, which IMO is a true artform, but to each his own.

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I view the "European pheasant" shoots in the US. For those not familiar with this - a group of 25 or so shooters are ringed around a hill and pheasants are launched into the air via an air cannon or spring board, and induced to fly off the hill into the line of fire of the pheasant shooters. Typically, 100 to 300 pheasants are launched and shot at. It is not often called a hunt but rather a "shoot".

By the way, I much prefer the 3 pheasant limit in South Dakota chasing wild as heck birds verses the launched variety and am willing to pay for it.

Shit dogcat, what you describe there would not even be legal in most of europe, and frowned at by most of us anyway.
I have a suggestion could you not convince those people to call it an american live clay show down instead, i as an european is actually a bit insulted by that name

best

peter

P.S if you are in europe in the hunting season, contact me and i will take you out with my GSP and we will get the pheasant as it should be done

I do not blame you. I would be pissed as well. I believe the practice is akin to dog fighting.

I really don't get you.

You start off saying you're changing your mind about the SA Lion thing, and now you are comparing a legal shooting event (not hunting) to something that is purely illegal throughout the US and I think, Europe.

Do you really think the cruelty in dog fights is in any way similar to a reasonably quick death via gunshot?

Don't get me wrong, this is not hunting. But its not quite "live clay pigeon shooting" either. And in any case, I think most guys at these things eat the birds as well. I think the "European" shows what the average US hunter thinks a driven game shoot is like.

Just because its not my cup of tea, doesn't mean that those who enjoy this are committing animal cruelty, either.

Gents: I place myself solidly in the anti-"canned" lion hunting camp, but recently I saw an episode of Safari Hunter's Journal where the host Steve Scott-who has always struck me as a very well-reasoned spokesman for our sport make some very valid points in favor of subject hunting in RSA.

The name of the outfit he hunted with was Quagga Safaris and from what I could tell the hunt seemed genuine and not easy by any means. He posits the argument that lion hunting, properly done in a large enclosed area has been the savior of endangered animals like the white rhino for example. Further, he made a strong case there was no difference in hunting say a kudu in an enclosed area large enough to make it fair chase(I hunted mine in the 144K acre Malangani Conservancy and now part of the Bubyee).

So if it perpetuates the species and allows it to be hunted in a large area, is it wrong to oppose it? Remember there are less than forty thousand lions left in sub-Saharan Africa. And for the record, as much as I would love to, I can never afford such a hunt.
jorge

Just for the heck of it, checked out their website. Does anyone find Himalayan Tahr on their trophy list to be a bit odd?