Hello Guys,

Well being in the industry and having seen a number of trophies that have been taken in the field this year some of them are very impressive and others well have been misslabled so to say.

Without mentioning names or going into any more details i have seen a number of Lion that have been hunted in Mozambique that are rather pretty. now we all know that Free State lions are the best looking of the captive bred lions, but the Free State is a long way off of the area where they were hunted - say 720 km as the crow flies according to my flight calculator, now that is a long way for these cats to make it.

One thing is for sure that they were captive bred lions and must have been smuggled through the border, released, kept on bait and then legally hunted.

Sorry this is off the cuff - any suggestions on the poll will be considered.

Which brings me to my poll:

Question:
How do you feel about hunting free roaming lion at this point in time?

Choices:
It should be closed for 4 years to give the natural popluations a chance
its a crime, we are killing what we have left
I am all for it

Question:
And now, how do you feel about hunting canned lion in say a 2000 acre camp?

Choices:
Tar and Feather me before i do that(Never)
It has claws and can kill me = fair game

Question:
How do you feel about hunting captive bred lions that have been released into an area(open concession) and then hunted legally?

Choices:
No way
Dont see a problem with it, makes sense as long as i am told the WHOLE truth behind the lions

 

Funny you brought this up.

I have also heard that certain well groomed lions - supposed shot in certain areas of Zimbabwe, were they have never been seen before in such glory - might have been captively bred.

I don't think they should close lion hunting completely. A good idea might be what the Tanzanian are doing, limit the age at which they can be shot.

I have absolutely nothing against people who wish to shoot captively bred lions, or any other animal.

If it was captively bred, it really makes no difference how big the area is.

As far as I am concerned, it is only SHOOTING as against HUNTING.

Think of it this way....if you had $200K worth of pen-raised Lions that were soon to turn into worthless "pets" due to new restrictions in RSA, what would you be doing? I'll bet there's been an increase in night traffic lately from RSA to parts north, for sure!

You've hit the nail on the head - MONEY!!!! Why could the question not be put differently, for example.." If you had excess lion in your captive breeding program.........."

The debate about this breeding program will continue for decades. Personally I am against it, but then I've been fortunate in my life to have hunted large tracts of wild Africa, with free roaming animals, the way it is MEANT to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
You've hit the nail on the head - MONEY!!!! Why could the question not be put differently, for example.." If you had excess lion in your captive breeding program.........."

The debate about this breeding program will continue for decades. Personally I am against it, but then I've been fortunate in my life to have hunted large tracts of wild Africa, with free roaming animals, the way it is MEANT to be.

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON.

The best article I've ever read on this is by Andrew McLaren here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

Excellent article indeed. You don't write that much on the subject without first hand information!!

It really is a sickening aspect of our noble industry, and as Andrew puts it - disgusting.

Yup. It's one of my two pet hates!

TWO???

Two: http://www.shakariconnection.c...hant-management.html

Although perhaps hobby horses might be a better expression than hates.

I have no qualms about taking a captive bred lion IF (and here's where it becomes more theoretical than reality) that lion was released a number of years previously and has become acclimated to a very large area, and has become for all intents and purposes a wild lion.

Like I said more of a theory than a reality.

I find it interesting how some species get some sort of a special treatment, concerning this idea of release and then hunt.

First let me state, that I'm against hunting animals that are under any type of drugs and any unreasonably small enclosure (what is the size? I dunno, depends on the land)

It doesn't seem that anyone would have a problem of releasing white sprinbok or Copper ones, (those are the really expensive, designer ones now) to shoot. But because Lions are held to a higher standards, this is a "No No".

Let's face it, in the world we live in, all ranchers/phs/guides are in the livestock business.

Producing plainsgame is no different that producing lions, and from a "conservation population genetics standpoint" hunting captive bred lions is a viable method for protecting and encourgaing the sustainability of wild lion prides.

IF and when, this whole captive lion issue is completely finalized, would anyone who believed in conservation support its banning? I would hope not, because you will then be supporting the destruction of 1000's of lions. Because there isn't a ph in the world who will want to have a ton of lions dumped on his property to eat all his plainsgame.

By supporting the demise of captive bred lion hunting, the price of free-range lion hunts will and is currently going to go through the roof. The Hunting Industry in general is slowly but surely economically eliminating current young and surely future generations of hunters. It's happening here in the USA, and most certainly the rest of the world. And don't get me wrong, I'm a free-market capitolist through and through...everyone needs to make money.

But holding Lions to a higher standard is ironic to me, because there are very few people who mind shooting a Scimitar Horned Oryx, or an Addax, black buck, axis deer, nilgai... all of which are almost impossible to hunt in their native habitat and are raised for people to shoot. And guess what, the number of these animals in Texas alone, out numbers the species in their home tracks, and they have VALUE...which means they survive.

"wildlife drives the engine of economic prosperity"

If a lion is the same as a bushbuck then you are right, there is no difference. But most people consider them different, better somehow. That is the part of this arguement that leaves conservation science behind and enters into personal preference.

Captive breeding of ungulates is pretty straightforward and it is easy to raise and release critters that have behaiviour similar to there "all wild" cousins.

Lions on the other hand tend to become pets. It is much harder to raise "wild" lions.

I would never knowingly hunt a captive raised lion. I just don't think you get the same hunt and the same satisfaction as you would with a wild lion.

But I am not prepared to say shut down the industry either. Lets make sure we can stablize the wild populations before we eliminate the 5000 captive ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Funny you brought this up.

I have also heard that certain well groomed lions - supposed shot in certain areas of Zimbabwe, were they have never been seen before in such glory - might have been captively bred.

I don't think they should close lion hunting completely. A good idea might be what the Tanzanian are doing, limit the age at which they can be shot.

I have absolutely nothing against people who wish to shoot captively bred lions, or any other animal.

If it was captively bred, it really makes no difference how big the area is.

As far as I am concerned, it is only SHOOTING as against HUNTING.

Saeed gets it right most of the time, here he is really spot-on!

The word 'hunting' - and the proper meaning that the actions are legal, sustainable and not detrimental to existing polulation, causing undue suffering or stress etc. etc. in the first question makes it very easy for me to choose the last option of "I'm all for it!".

The word 'hunting' in the second question should be replaced by the word 'shooting' for the question to make any sense at all!

The third question makes one think! Releasing a captive bred male lion into a concession are that also contains wild lion can have some interesing results: If the released animal is young he is most likely to die of starvation - so shooting it will really save it from a less noble death by starvation. If the released lion is a fully grown and well fed big adult with a taste for females in heat the possibilities become interesting to think about: Fight a pride male? Remember the released one was well fed and has grown huge and strong, if possibly a bit soft? He could possibly topple a pride male that was recently involved in another territorial battle and who has not yet fully recovered from that effort. However, I would place my betting money mostly on the wild pride male that is used to fighting to win in most cases. Then shooting [Note: I do not use the word 'hunting' here!] it may also save it from a terrible, but natural, death from fighting with a superior wild male!

Interesting poll, and results!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

I agree with oryxhunter 1983...most of us have no problem "hunting" plains game that were raised for that purpose. I have personally hunted plains game in the unfenced wild africa and in the enclosed high fenced africa I must say that the high fenced experience for the most part was every bit as challenging as the other in fact some unfenced experiences were not all that challenging or gratifying. So it depends on the situation. Hunting predators MAY be a different story however, I've hunted both Lion and Leopard in the wild unfenced Africa and I have hunted Lion in a "free range" SA environment. Both experiences were different. Both were very exciting. They were not the same. The high fenced experience was what it was. Maybe it was just shooting, but at the time it didn't feel like it. In my opinion the animal could escape anywhere, was not impaired with drugs and would have made a meal of me if it could have. The excitement of the experience and the intense moments were Very similiar to when I shot my Leopard. Sadly, I too believe that the cost of many of these hunts ie. Tanzania are pricing many people out of the market. I make no apologies for the experience I had. As long as an animal is pursued according to the law of that country than I personally do not see a problem, if thats what you want. I don't believe I am qualified to judge someone else's decision to pursue that animal. I respect others right to disagree, but won't think anything less of them for it.

Oryxhunter & RWT

The big difference between pen reared Lions and plains game introduction etc is that the plains game are released into the area and then effectively left to their own devices. They breed, feed and live in the area on a pretty much natural basis and they also learn the area and escape routes etc. They are in effect, pretty much wild.

Whereas the Lions are born, raised, fed and live in a pen all their lives until it's time for them to be released and soon afterwards shot. They have very little if any experience of hunting for themselves, they're totally unused to the area when compared to plains game that have lived their lives in the area. They have no idea of the topography and escape routes etc and are deeply habituated to humans and vehicles etc. It's not uncommon for these Lions to walk towards the shooting (I won't say hunting) vehicle as if they think they're gonna be fed......... and that's probably exactly why they do it.

About the closest you can get to a Lion hunt in an unfenced area in SA are the areas bordering the Kruger and a very few other parks but although these animals will have fought for territory and pride etc, they'll still be deeply habituated to humans and vehicles. That doesn't make them any less dangerous but it does make them very different to truly wild Lions.

As for what to do with the pen bred Lions now that (technically speaking) the practice is illegal in SA. The only thing you can do is put them down. They can't be released into areas that already have Lions because they'll cause too much trouble and possibly the deaths of more Lions than will be released and they can't be released into areas that don't have Lions because landowners don't want 'em because they eat too many expensive plains game animals.

Therefore it's not suprising that a 'moonlight Toyota migration' has happened in some cases.

(IMO) Andrew's advice about contracts and blood samples etc is well worth paying close attention to nowadays....... and I don't mean just in South Africa.

I agree with what Andrew wrote and think blood work is a good idea. it is a crying shame that the hunting industry is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo full of shumcks that are not worth their weight in salt and that one might have to draw blood to determine if the animal you shot was fair game!!!! i do hope that things will change in the future, i really do.


Saeed, its the greed that drives people to do what they do. and if the clients greed for that trophy will allow him to stoop to the level of shooting a canned lion then he will have no problem in finding an outfitter who's greed for the clients money will happily accomodate he needs.

It is a bad cycle!!!!

My main gripe is when captive bred lion are sold as wild lion. There have been several instances of theis in Zim including one taken in a national parks concession. The client is convinced he has sucessfully hunted a wild lion ..when it was actually delived at 4am that morning.

If a guy wants to shoot a captive bred lion- go for it! It leaves more wild lion for the guys who actually enjoy the hunt! I recon at least 50% of my clients for lion don't give a damn where the lion comes from provided they a) get it quick and without much effort and b) looks good.

I would much rather that that sort of client has somewhere else to go and leave me with those who are interested in the hunt...the baiting, watching the bushmen at work and understanding just how much they can read from the spoor..accepting that if a lioness gives us a rev and you focus on her and miss your chance at the male...thats hunting.

For most of us the Lion will be the Pinnalce of our hunting carrers. Forgive me for this, but I wouldn't marry a prostitute either....

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
For most of us the Lion will be the Pinnalce of our hunting carrers. Forgive me for this, but I wouldn't marry a prostitute either....

Jeff

Although a lot of marriages are a bit like marrying a prostitute

I want to qualify my opinions, by saying, that I'm a research fellow, my field being based in genetics, reproductive technology, and disease in wildlife at a veterinary school.

My whole concern is this, of the 1000 or so lions that are supposedly legally harvested each year from Africa, roughly 1/3 were coming from RSA. Minus this 1/3, the other 2/3 (wild lions) will have heightened pressures added to their survival. The loss of habitat, their interaction with people/livestock, and hunters will be the end for lions. Don't take this the wrong way, I want to hunt lions, and I'm doing my very best to do it soon, because in the not so distant future, I don't believe you will be able to. I"m very PRO Lion hunting, and RSA captive bred lions to me was a genius way to ensure lion hunting forever. There are other species, ones I've listed above that have only survived extinction because of captive breeding.

The idea of putting down all those lions is crazy. The loss of the genetic diversity within those populations will be a crime. Despite the General idea that they would all be imbred, there will be significant genetic differences because I'm sure that the founding cats probably came from a very large geographic distribution, and the loss of those genes will be a negative. All it will take is a disease to re-appear and knock "wild lion populations to its knees" and it could be the end for lions as we know it.

The lions in captivity serve two purposes,
1. Reduce pressure on wild populations
2. Serve as a reserve population in case of a catastrophic event

For Hunters it serves as an chance to hunt an animal that is the king of beasts, and there's quite a few of us out there that can go spend 50k-70k on a free range lion. Go to an SCI function and start counting the people there under 30, you won't find many. And that is going to be one of the Lions worst enemy, because whenever there stops being a price for their heads, they will dissapear. I personally wouldn't be ashamed of hunting one that was released, as stated before, I don't want one that drugged, and would expect that it didn't step off the trailer an hour before I got there. Would I prefere a 21 day tanzania quest, sure, but that isn't in my financial future, and I make a great living. Same reason I drive a Tahoe, and not an Escalade, same car, less bells and whistles.

As far as a difference between plainsgame and lions, I see no difference between feeding lions horse meat and kudu apples. And there are places (especially for bowhunters, not crapping on them, cause I've bowhunted like crazy) that people sit next to a waterhole, hay stack, and apple barrel and shoot trophies, YET once again, that's deemed OK. Roosevelt, rode lions into exhaustion by horseback, and then shot them, anyone have a problem with that?

I find it humerous, when people start trying to define Hunting vs Shooting/Killing. There are some species in certain enviroments that are not hard to hunt. I would think most would agree with that. Say, Pronghorn in New Mexico, drive around, shoot them all day. But I see people saying they hunted them and no ones calls them out. I know some guys that can shoot 6-700 yrds extremely well...and that animal never sees it coming, because they aren't in the same area relatively, no one wants to crap on long range shooters. I also know people who go out and find the biggest whatever, on the first morning, if you ran into a herd of 70lbs on the 1st morning of your 21 day safari, and shoot a big gull, is that now considered shooting, and not hunting???? Has anyone other than myself, missed an animal, and the animal just stood there, allow for a second shot, is that hunting, or killing??? It's all the same, just depends who the "HOLYER than THOU PERSON" who's talking shit.

If hunters start drawing lines in the sand, throwing stones, at our own members, than HUNTING will lose. I'm all for hunting in any way fashionable that is deemed legal by a country, state, etc... And thats the attitude that should be adopted if you are seriously interested in protecting the RIGHTS to HUNT. We've got enough enemies, we shouldn't have to worry about coming under attack from within.

Gayana, not to start a fight, bc I really hate it when people on here get sh&tty, but your comment, of "I would much rather that that sort of client has somewhere else to go and leave me with those who are interested in the hunt" but yet at the same time, you do indeed take them hunting and hopefully profit from it. So it's a fine line between what we wish were the Perfect situation, and reality.

"wildlife drives the engines of economic prosperity"

Great post.

Oryxhunter...my gripe is not that they want a captive bred lion served on a plate...it is that they have actually no interest in hunting (only the trophy) and wish that I should try and make a hunt of a wild lion as close as possible to a canned hunt! I have a friend who used to offer (openly, choose which one you want from hoto's provided)canned hunts in RSA and I frequently refered clients to him - if I understood before they booked what they actually wanted.

My main complaint is against those operators who a) break the law and b) decieve the client.

Silent T- thanks for the compliment


Ganyana, I see your point, and I'm sure that puts you in an uncomfortable situation. I think we are on the same page. Thanks for the reply

Oryx,

Interesting to hear about your qualifications. Can I ask how much of that experience was gained in the fields of Africa? The reason I ask is that western solutions tend not to apply to African problems in the same way.

Assuming that the wild prides are managed properly and appropriate quotas set and adhered to, the ban on canned Lion shooting won't add pressure to the wild population at all. Sure it'll almost certainly create more demand for Lion hunts and prices may well rise but one could argue that if prices do go up, then hunters will be keener to only take appropriate animals which in turn will make finer trophies.

With all dure respect, I think that when you discuss SA Lions, you're getting hunting confused with shooting. The two things are very different indeed.

Regarding your comment about some species have only survived because of captive breeding. You're quite right but Lions are not in that position by a long chalk. Lions breed easily, their trophies (unlike rhino for example) have little if any value on the black market and the true wilderness areas are plenty big enough to support the current populations. With proper management and good quotering, their numbers should even improve.

Regarding your comments about genetic diversity. There is actually already a massive amount of Leonine genetic material in zoos and freezers around the world and more could be taken (if necessary) from the animals before they are put down. If you don't put them down, there's always going to be the opportunity for the unscrupulous to slip a ringer into an area and con a hunter. In their present condition, they contribute nothing to the diversity anyway because they live in cages and don't get the chance to spread their diversity.

The fact that a Lions lifespan is relatively short, means that even if you did want to keep them alive to retain that genetic diversity for some time in the future in case there were suddenly a shortage of Lions for some reason, the'd be long dead of old age. Therefore, keeping them alive achieves nothing and is a danger to ethical hunting.

You also say that for hunters, it serves as a chance to hunt an animal that is the king of beasts. It doesn't, it allows shooters to shoot the king of beasts in an unsporting, unchallenging and unethical manner. Surely, we owe it both to ourselves and to the king of beasts to behave in a more dignified manner than that?

If you can't see the difference between plains game that are translocated and then live their lives in the wild and are largely self sustaining and a Lion that's introduced into an area a few days or even hours before someone pitches up to shoot it, then I have to say, you know not of what you speak. (to coin a phrase)

I have to disagree with your last para. As I see it, If we as hunters allow the disgraceful canned Lion hunting industry to continue, sooner or later the antis will get hold of it and use it as a club to beat us over the head with and will try, and probably succeed in getting all Lion hunting and possibly all African hunting banned.

If we don't police ourselves, then someone will step up to the plate to do it for us....... and they sure as hell won't be pro hunting.

I freely admit I have a problem with the entire canned hunting thing but like Ganyana, I have a bigger problem with those who break the law and decieve the clients........ and there's an awful lot of that kind of thing goes on.

Shakari,

I've been privy to see quite a few people on this forum get ugly, and I want to preface this response by saying I wish to not offend you, and state that this is merely my opinion.

But I will tell you this, currently, I'm working with one of the top population geneticists in the world. We have put together a project to collect DNA samples from as many different species in africa as we can get our hands on. Are you a PH? member of PHASA? if you are and are planning on attending the meeting this month, you will hear about the project that I have co-founded. I personally will not be there to give the talk, but the professor I am working with will. So hopefully you can attend and will embrace it. It's a really novel idea that all of the PH's that I've spoken to are very interested in and excited to participate. So my experience in africa from a research standpoint is growing everyday. I actually did a test run of our project this past august in Namibia, and had great success.

This is a scientific method, it's not defined by north, south, east, or west...good science is good science. Anywhere. Now, that being said, good science in the hands of a poor scientist is sh*t. And I totally agree that africa poses a unique set of issues, and my professor and I have labored hard to examine those issues, and we have developed a method to overcome some of the scientific hardships that most of southern africa has to offer.

Concerning the SA lions, I think we will have to agree to disagree...I do understand shooting vs hunting, but in all species, there are opportunities to shoot and hunt, and I won't put myself on the top of the mountain to judge one's personal choice. Everyone's experience is different.

Concerning the future of lions, you brought up breeding easily, no black market value...all good points, but the one thing you said "true wilderness areas are plenty big enough," I completely disagree...because "true wilderness" is dissapearing. Man encroachment upon land is an unstoppable tidle wave. The loss of their habitat and increased interaction with man and man's property will be the end of lions. It's considerably more fragile than I feel you believe.

You talk about putting the lions down, there's plenty of genetic material in zoos. You're missing one key thing, to make lions from genetic material, you need alive lions. I could go into insane amounts of detail concerning nuclear transfer (cloning) but I will keep it simple, to effectively clone something you need two things, oocytes, unfertilized eggs, recipients and genetic material. And you need quite a bit of eggs...I'm talking 1000s...of which if you were lucky you might get a few offspring. In addition you need live surogates to support the clone as it grows. So if for some chance, there was some sort of epidemic in wild lions, and they had a major population crash...where do you think you'll find a large population of lions that can be worked for recovery efforts? You won't find it, cause it doesn't exist outside of RSA.

Here at my university they cloned the first house cat, and it wasn't easy...and that was with the convience of every possible piece of equipment, money, people, top scientist...etc. Something AFRICA doesn't have. So destroying the only containted resevoir of lions is not smart. Plus think about all the governments in play, political/financial issues, we don't even need to go there!

So those lions in pens, would be the key to bringing the species back if some unfortunate event occurs, and it will, because thats nature. So your comment about short life spans is not even a valid point, the fact they could be used to contribute materials necessary for reproductive technology to be used, means they are VERY IMPORTANT! Don't forget, you can't grow lions in petri dishes, gotta have surogates too!

Also, concerning their genetic diversity, because their genome hasn't been mapped, and genes pertaining to reproduction, disease resistance, behavioral...etc have not been identified, you cannot discount their contribution to the GENOME of lions. There might be a superior gene that one of those caged lions has, that might be the only one resistant to "a catastrophic event".

Regarding your comment concerning "unsporting/unchallenging/unethical manner". I will agree that I'm against everything listed above, but to make blanket statements concerning all that might deal in Captive lion hunts is careless. Again, the words listed above have very different meanings to many different folks, and I will not enforce my personal views on everyone else. It's not my place, nor is it yours. That responsibility lies with everyone entering the field with a weapon.

Again, with the plainsgame, that animals are never put out and shot within a short amount of time...because I would say that is ridiculus. It happens, you know it does. I like how you quantified your statement "largely self sustaining", again, personal choice to define Largely...does that include, water troughs, hay??? I personally do not see a difference...if you raise something and then turn it out into any area for the purpose of shooting/hunting it, I don't care if it's goats, or snow leopards there's no difference.

There is NO GRAY area with me, I'm a realist. You guys have land, and want money for people to shoot animals off of it, how you define hunting is up to you, but at the end of the day, the client wants an animal and you want a check. No one books a hunt, with the idea of, I'm going to come home empty handed, and you are in BUSINESS! I'm sure that's not your model either.

The only difference between the angus cows and your precious lions is Angus marble and taste better. I assure you, if they could produce 20 ounce ribeyes effectively, we would have feedlots full of them. So you can't romanticize them to me saying they deserve better than what we do to a cow.

About my last paragraph, is hunting of drugged animals bad, I think so, is hunting an animal legally by standards set forth in that country bad, I think not. I'm not here to impose my beliefs on other hunters, I'm PRO-HUNTING as long as it's LEGAL HUNTING!

There's a difference in policing and condemning...police enforce laws, condemnation is our opinion about those laws.

Oryx,

You haven't offended me at all bwana. A friendly debate is always a good thing as far as I'm concerned....... and I do see this as a friendly debate. Although I fear that I've been an ugly bastard all my life and all the friendly debates in the world ain't gonna change that!

Yes I am a PH and a member of PHASA and have been for many years. I don't usually attend the AGM/convention as I don't usually have time but it's closer to my home this year, so there's a small chance I might make it to the day of the AGM..... but nothing else.

However, please feel free to email me the details of your project to shakari3@mweb.co.za if you think I might be able to help or if you think it might be of interest. I'm a sucker for good scientific project anyway!

I have a lot of issues with canned hunting and the reason I'm so vitriolic about these issues that I sincerely care deeply about hunting, hunters and the hunting industry.

I'm getting towards the end of my hunting career and am now trying to get into semi retirement at least, but I'd like very much to think that ethical hunting in true wilderness areas will continue for many years to come after I've hung up my rifles. However, like you, I'm happy to agree to disagree if necessary.

I wasn't suggesting cloning at all. I don't know much about cloning but would think it's not yet advanced anywhere near far enough to be cost effective enough to be a viable option..... esp in Africa!

My point was that there are gallons of Lion sperm in freezers around the world and AI is relatively simple, inexpensive and has fairly high success rates. All one needs is a few females to impregnate artificially and that if necessary one can boost populations in fairly short order.

My point was that the Lions currently in the captivity of the breeders will be long dead before they could be of any possible use to the wild poulation. Better to take some genetic material from them if required and then put them down to ensure they can't be slipped into an area as a ringer for some poor unsuspecting hunter to be conned with. That to me, is the best of both worlds.

Regarding your 10th para. I think you missed my point. As I see it, releasing a Lion into an area he doesn't know, often with an excess of vitamin K coursing through his bloodstream can never be a sporting hunt. All it can ever be is a shoot and that to me is appalling from a hunters point of view, an open intitation to the antis to attack us with and a glaring opportunity for some unscrupulous SOB to take advantage of a hunter who thinks he's taking a wild Lion. Hell, we've even seen examples of that happening to guys who post here. It wasn't that long ago that some guy posted that he and couple of his buddies had all shot 2 or 3 'wild' Lions/Lionesses each all in a few days. His comment was 'the most fun you can have with your pants on'. This guy was convinced he'd had a fair hunt. That to me, needs to be stopped. I don't condemn the guy for doing it, but I do condemn the bloke that conned him.

You're right when you say I'm in business and I want a cheque in exchange for the client wanting an animal....... but I'm not a prostitute and I would, and indeed have, sent the client home without a particular animal he had on his wishlist if we can't get the animal by fair chase....... and I'm not ashamed to say that I do it without a qualm.

I'll bend over backwards to get the client the very best animal possible but I won't deliberately let him shoot an immature, lesser or canned animal for any amount of money.

However, on the other hand, if a potential client contacts me and asks me if I can guarantee him a animal of a specific minimum size etc, I'll say no, I can't but I can guarantee we'll do our very best for you.

I don't mean to romanticise Lions at all. My intention is to ensure that hunters and hunting are not tainted by unscrupulousness of any kind.

True hunting to me is best described by Sher Jung in Tryst With tigers when he said:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

Shakari,
I will send you a deal talking about our project, I really feel it can play a substantial part in the future of african wildlife. I'm hoping that every PH will participate.

And, I like you will fight tooth and nail for hunting, wildlife, and the rights of both. I know we can both agree they are under attack from all directions.

Email Sent!

I’ve not hunted Africa so I’ll state that up front…so the following is totally my uninformed opinion.

A few things that I’ve identified in my 60 years, having lived in difference areas of the USA, is that each area has its norms that will not comport fully with the norms of any other area. Also, there are hunters who pick whatever excuse or reality you desire to pick will opt for the easiest hunt…or shoot…or kill, pick your personal prospective here, possible. Some folks like dog hunting, some don’t. Some folks like to pack whether by foot, horse or mule, atv, etc. far into the hunting territory while others dislike venturing from the nearest road or trail. Some folks have hunted their entire life in using the “accepted hunting practices” but due to physical ailments are prevented from doing so today.

So here’s my personal stance regarding the canned lion hunts is this: only allow the use of drugs that incapacitates the lion for a maximum of 45 minutes (solely to prevent harm to the releasing individuals), prohibit released lions from being hunted within 18 hours of their being drugged, and then after 18 hours allow them to be hunted. That’s it period. Accommodate the lazy hunter or perhaps the hunter is that same pack hunter to the far and deep territories who due to physical ailments can no longer venture far from the nearest road, trail or even perhaps medical attention.

If you detest the “canned hunts” you certainly don’t have to participate in it. Allowing the lazy or perhaps physically impaired hunter to do so certainly makes more room in the “rest of the hunting world” for the remaining hunters.

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You also say that for hunters, it serves as a chance to hunt an animal that is the king of beasts. It doesn't, it allows shooters to shoot the king of beasts in an unsporting, unchallenging and unethical manner. Surely, we owe it both to ourselves and to the king of beasts to behave in a more dignified manner than that?

Oryxhunter,

In a nutshell regardless of what others may say a kudu, eland etc can be as challenging and as much a real hunt on a large enclosure as it might be in a completely open range area. I've been there and done that under both circumstances. The enclosure hunt is not as wild but nevertheless can be a real hunt for an animals living in its native enviroment.

The captive bread lion in question on the other hand having been brought up in a concrete and wire pen has no survival or hunting skills. Transport him to a ranch or a wild area, release him and he is completley out of his element. "Hunting" this lion bears no resemblance to hunting a lion that has grown up in say the Selous, Luangwa Valley etc.

Now in my mind as long as it is legal and the client really understands what it is he is doing I see nothing wrong with shooting canned lions. You buy a lion and you shoot it. Big deal!!! I do think though as others have stated that lions are an amazingly emotional issue and the antis can have a field day with this hunt so the demise of captive lion hunting may be a good thing.

Mark

Oryx,

Righto Bwana, I'll look forward to reading it and yes, we can agree that hunting & wildlife are under attack from all directions and that we need to fight tooth and nail to protect and defend them.

Mark,
I completely understand, and in no way ever claimed that hunting free range lions would be the same experience as captive raised. I'm like you, if it is legal, and you choose to participate, more power to you. I won't condemn you for participating in a legal hunting activity. I'm against people being scammed...so we're good!

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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
The captive bread lion in question

You can always spot these animals by the way they loaf around and their crusty demeanour!

Upset one and you're toast!



Ah dammit, there goes another rib!

I agree, here on AR it's an endangered specie!

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Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:
What's this? A reasonable debate between to opinions that actually presents points and counterpoints? I heard these things existed but didn't believe it.

Wait awhile and someone will add - "and what do think about hunting 200" whitetails behind a fence" or "I would use my 45/70 on a lion". Then the fur will fly.

Or better yet, Ray Atkinson will post on the subject.

Canned lion hunting could be much more interesting if they used those same flank strap that they use on rodeo bulls. Cinch it up just before you release the ph and client into the enclosure