I believe I was wrong in supporting and perpetuating the need for such an un-attainable "age" restriction that is simply not happening in "wild" Africa. Before you opine, hear me out on this one.

First off, let me be clear on the position / opinion I always had and still do. I was never in favor of the 6 yr old rule, rather I was in favor of a 5 yr old rule. Look at all of my writings on it, and one can easily confirm that. Truth is however, it became obvious that wasn't going to happen / be acceptable and the pressure from outside the hunting community (including the scientific community) was ever growing. Pressure that is, to stop the killing of obviously young / immature lions (those 2 - 3 yr olds we've all seen pics of). Thus being so concerned about the future of the lion, and sustained lion hunting - I too went along with those on the fore-front of age based restrictions.

The truth is, 6+ yr old lions are as rare as hens teeth! They were then, and they still are now.....period! Frankly, I'm not convinced the likes of Dr. Packer was not already completely aware of this fact - and thus pushed the 6 yr old agenda, knowing the likelihood of many lions being taken was slim! Without me outing people or places, let me say it like this. I have good contacts and comms with outfitters / PH's in some of the best places in all of Africa that you could ever imagine hunting lions, and yet all the results remain the same. Why is it, we aren't seeing more and more old / past their prime lions in any of these areas????? Tanzania for example has reduced lion off take from over 300 per year, to less than 50 - yet in awesome hunting areas with lots of lions PH's are still struggling to find 6+ yr old lions!!!

The answer is simple, and I've had a ton of PH's and one very knowledgable Lion scientist / expert agree with me. The male lion in 95% of cases (in the wild) simply does not live to be 6+ yrs old, period! Its entirely too competitive amongst males wanting females, that once male/s are3 - 4+ yrs of age (especially if in a coalition of males) they are fighting / killing the pride males. Male lions don't just give up and walk off from their girls because they've gotten too old, they only go away when forced to do so. In doing so, I believe they are rarely leaving without a monstrous fight that either ends in their immediate demise, or one that follows not long after their departure.

If this isn't the case - then tell me why Tanzania is not producing a bunch of 7 - 10 yr old lions, now that the "law" has been in place for 6 yrs? Why are we not at least seeing "old" lions? I'm not talking about prime males, I'm talking OLD lions, like old dagga boys? You just don't see them! Same with other countries, in particular in places where some PH's have been practicing good conservation practices for years now as well? The "old" lions just simply aren't there, period! I have some very specific examples of this from a couple of lion hunts conducted just a month or so ago, but for now - can't divulge the pics / PH's. This place has a bunch of gorgeous male lions, has for years now, they can readily been seen from a vehicle - and yet each year they struggle to find what they believe is a 6+ yr old male.

Now look, I'm not saying it "never" happens - so keep your shorts on guys. But what I am saying is I now believe this is honestly an un-attainable / realistic rule, and if possible we need to work at reducing it or eliminating it all together. When I think back on all the lion hunts I have done myself, been on with clients, and even guided one too - I can honestly say I think I've seen, not just killed but have seen only 2 - 3 lions that I believe were without a doubt over 6 yrs old! I believe even some of the best / biggest maned lions I have killed were no older than 5, and I have had one lion scientist look at them extensively - and agree!!!!

My bottom line - opinion. Most males are hitting their peak / final prime at no more than 5, are potential pride holders even at age 4 in some cases and by the time they hit age 6 are fought / kicked out and in the vast majority of cases are killed by younger / stronger males!!! Does this hold true in every place in the wild....no! I could think of one or two exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases I am willing to bet on it.

My opinion on hunting lions now, is as follows. If countries insist on laws / rules governing age restrictions - 5 yrs old should be the maximum limitation, not 6 or above. I think we could even do without age restrictions all together if we simply restricted the shooting a pride males "with" dependent cubs!!! Now, I certainly would urge / suggest NOT shooting what is obviously a young / immature lion (we all know what they look like) as the outside public just goes crazy over it.

The current restrictions / mind set has IMO not had the effect on the lions themselves that was intended, but it has had a negative effect on lion hunting, the lion hunting industry, and these two things obviously have a direct correlation back to the future of the lion itself!!!!

Examples below of what I think a few of my lions age / with some help too!

Zambia - Biggest bodied lion I have ever killed, if you saw the mount with my others - you would agree. I think he's 5 max.


Shot in Zim, weighed in at 503lbs, I think he's 4, and was a pride male absent of cubs.


Botswana, I think he's 5????


Tanzania - I think he's 5 max


Tanzania - I am certain he's over 6 - look at his lack of condition compared to others. You rarely see lions like this in the wild - cause they're already dead!


Zim - I think he's 5 max, and was a pride holder with his twin brother. He weighed 489lbs - live weight

Need to see the skulls with teeth.

Yes, need to see the skulls and teeth, before se shoot them!

I wholeheartedly agree with Aaron.

Trying to judge how old a lion is in the field is not very easy.

In fact, unless one comes across an old, decrepit male dying of his wounds, one cannot say with any certainty how old he is.

I have seen several professional hunters with many years of experience change their minds about the same lion, seen on different days.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The male lion in 95% of cases (in the wild) simply does not live to be 6+ yrs old, period! Its entirely too competitive amongst males wanting females, that once male/s are3 - 4+ yrs of age (especially if in a coalition of males) they are fighting / killing the pride males. Male lions don't just give up and walk off from their girls because they've gotten too old, they only go away when forced to do so. In doing so, I believe they are rarely leaving without a monstrous fight that either ends in their immediate demise, or one that follows not long after their departure.

I am no expert, but that is what I was saying when the 6 year old rule was being pushed: finding pride male that has been kicked out of the pride is going to be very hard because they are not going to live very long without the pride doing the hunting for them.

My extremely limited experience with lion is consistent with Aaron's comments. I hunted lion only once in Tanzania in 2015, I think. Anyway, not counting the pictures we looked at from trailcams, we saw two males that warranted a closer look. My PH called one at 5, a definite no go. The other we simply came upon and tracked for a few hours. Bumped him twice, but never could get a good enough look. PH called him "probably" 6, but not being able to see him on a bait and look him over carefully, it's really hard to tell, so he walked. He was alone and mature. I agree with Aaron on that lion.

I am no expert or even lion Hunter, but it has always seemed to me that if you shoot a 4 year old lion without a pride you have saved more lions because that prime 4 year old would have removed an older pride male and killed his cubs. Same argument for a two year old.

Now, if I were to hunt lion I would want the oldest, hyen waiting to pallbearer, disposed monarch I would find. However, I think conservation is best served by a lion regardless of age being shot so long as he does not hold a pride.

My opinion from the choir based on everything I have read here, in books, and saw on Nat Geo/Mutual Omham's Wild Kingdom.

Thank you for showing use those lions again.

I still believe that if the quotas are right, which one you kill is probably immaterial, especially if you avoid shooting pride males with dependent cubs.

If there are enough around, you should be able to find a 5+ year old, and looking at trophy pics, that is what a hunter wants.

The way the range states lion in good hunting blocks rebounded, to me it says that quotas were too generous.

I think that you are finding that Dr. Packer was leading you around by the nose.

According to Tanzania, both my lion were over 6, but the second one looked a lot older than the first.

No experience at all.

BUT: that's one hell of a collection of cats
Aaron!

Thanks for sharing the pictures, impressive.

George

Aaron,

You are wrong. I and a number of experienced PHs here in Zambia would not agree with you. The ageing in Zambia is finalised by an independent panel of expert judges and representatives from Panthera and the Zambia Carnivore Program with assistance from Dr. Paula White. As we all know Lions can only be accurately aged from skull and tooth analysis.

During our training and workshops we were instructed that we had to tick off a certain number of markers that would ensure the maturity of the target Lion and have to justify our decisions to the independent panel.

1. Full mane in front of ears and behind shoulder
2. Facial scarring
3. Nose more than 50% black
4. Grey colour or patchy skin
5. Absence of spot pattern on legs or belly
6. Pot belly and line of fat between leg and belly
7. Flattened tips to teeth - if visible
8. General appearance
9. Hanging jowl

Last year it was estimate 50% of the Lions taken were 6 plus. the others 5 plus and 1 was judged 4 but and was taken because he was severely injured. Only 18 Lions out of a quota of 24 were taken which was due to indecisions by the PH. I being one of them and turned down 9 males on one safari and just could not get onto the Lion that I considered 6 plus. This particular Lion has been under research by Thor Kirchner who has been monitoring him for 4 years and estimated him at 7 plus.

The pictures below are of recent lions judged to be over 6 years old and the first taken last year being expertly aged at 8 plus.

Not sure whats going on in Tanzania but if you speak with Mike Fell he has taken a series of old heavy maned Lions which I estimate to be 6-7 plus and Mike will no accept anything less.

The Lion pictured behind my camp is my target Lion this year and estimated to be 6-7 years and retains all the mentioned markers. If I can put him in the salt this year (not for want of trying) I will guarantee that I am correct and you are wrong.

However I have also been a supporter of taking the lone nomadic 5 year olds but Zambia has recently introduce stiff penalties and punitive measures that restrict the taking of younger males and as professionals we abide by these laws. Shoot a 4 year old you loose your license and face a prison sentence and/or $10,000 fine. Thus by targeting 5 years olds you have very little margin for error.

What with todays technology all camps have access to wifi and PHs are constantly seeking advise on ageing from others or resident experts. This has been extremely helpful in the field.

Tanzania has some fantastic Lions who are of age but would seem to be restricted to the major National Parks. These Lions often appear in publications such as National Geographic.

Cecil a research Lion was stated to be 13 and a number of research Lions in the Kruger have been accurately aged at 12.

I believe you were wrong my friend!

Fascinating post, Andrew. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Fascinating post, Andrew. Thanks.

Low daily rates and high trophy fee is the way to go. Client goes away happy which ever way you look at it and no pressure to take a lesser cat.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Are these shootable?

Haha. Shoot the one on top as he is obviously gay.

i agree with taking mature specimens but it sounds as though the PH needs to take pictures send them to the government for professional evaluation


I'm waiting for the next step to be tagging/branding all of the young males so PH can get a positive ID on age before shooting

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Need to see the skulls with teeth.

That's the point....you don't get to see that in a live lion, when hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The male lion in 95% of cases (in the wild) simply does not live to be 6+ yrs old, period! Its entirely too competitive amongst males wanting females, that once male/s are3 - 4+ yrs of age (especially if in a coalition of males) they are fighting / killing the pride males. Male lions don't just give up and walk off from their girls because they've gotten too old, they only go away when forced to do so. In doing so, I believe they are rarely leaving without a monstrous fight that either ends in their immediate demise, or one that follows not long after their departure.

I am no expert, but that is what I was saying when the 6 year old rule was being pushed: finding pride male that has been kicked out of the pride is going to be very hard because they are not going to live very long without the pride doing the hunting for them.

Male lions hunt for themselves perfectly fine, no problem at all. They don't need help hunting, I can assure you of that.

i just waited and counted the candles on his birthday cake

A male lion has only to be kicked in the head or gored and his chances of living to be 6+ are over ... A hard life being a lion ..Another reason the bush is not full of ancient cats ...

quote:

Originally posted by Tim629:
i agree with taking mature specimens but it sounds as though the PH needs to take pictures send them to the government for professional evaluation


I'm waiting for the next step to be tagging/branding all of the young males so PH can get a positive ID on age before shooting

You can have this one which was also photographed behind my camp. Well over 6 and I don't need to look at him twice.

Need to have a long hard look at this male.

Andrew, if I had a dollar for every time I was wrong - I would have alot of dollars bro. But you and I have shared many a campfires together in Zambia, and I'll always respect your opinion - but overall I don't think I am wrong. Personal experience all across southern / eastern Africa tells me otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Need to see the skulls with teeth.

That's the point....you don't get to see that in a live lion, when hunting!

No. You opined as to the ages of your dead lions.

Not sure what’s the basis for those opinions.

My point is simply that posting photos of the skulls with teeth of those dead cats would help us in the judging.

I tend to agree strongly with Andrew on this matter, but could be wrong, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Need to see the skulls with teeth.

That's the point....you don't get to see that in a live lion, when hunting!

No. You opined as to the ages of your dead lions.

Not sure what’s the basis for those opinions.

My point is simply that posting photos of the skulls with teeth of those dead cats would help us in the judging.

I tend to agree strongly with Andrew on this matter, but could be wrong, of course.

Field judging a lion is one thing, aging them is another. The truth is Michael, even tooth aging is only accurate to within 10 - 12 months bro.....period! Fact is, you can't see their skull / teeth when hunting in the field.

thank you for the very interesting commentary Aaron and Andrew!!

I do know one thing Andrew, whoever took that photo of the Lion behind your camp is nucking futs, there ball's must drag on the ground when they walk!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Aaron,

You are wrong. I and a number of experienced PHs here in Zambia would not agree with you. The ageing in Zambia is finalised by an independent panel of expert judges and representatives from Panthera and the Zambia Carnivore Program with assistance from Dr. Paula White. As we all know Lions can only be accurately aged from skull and tooth analysis.

During our training and workshops we were instructed that we had to tick off a certain number of markers that would ensure the maturity of the target Lion and have to justify our decisions to the independent panel.

1. Full mane in front of ears and behind shoulder
2. Facial scarring
3. Nose more than 50% black
4. Grey colour or patchy skin
5. Absence of spot pattern on legs or belly
6. Pot belly and line of fat between leg and belly
7. Flattened tips to teeth - if visible
8. General appearance
9. Hanging jowl

Last year it was estimate 50% of the Lions taken were 6 plus. the others 5 plus and 1 was judged 4 but and was taken because he was severely injured. Only 18 Lions out of a quota of 24 were taken which was due to indecisions by the PH. I being one of them and turned down 9 males on one safari and just could not get onto the Lion that I considered 6 plus. This particular Lion has been under research by Thor Kirchner who has been monitoring him for 4 years and estimated him at 7 plus.

The pictures below are of recent lions judged to be over 6 years old and the first taken last year being expertly aged at 8 plus.

Not sure whats going on in Tanzania but if you speak with Mike Fell he has taken a series of old heavy maned Lions which I estimate to be 6-7 plus and Mike will no accept anything less.

The Lion pictured behind my camp is my target Lion this year and estimated to be 6-7 years and retains all the mentioned markers. If I can put him in the salt this year (not for want of trying) I will guarantee that I am correct and you are wrong.

However I have also been a supporter of taking the lone nomadic 5 year olds but Zambia has recently introduce stiff penalties and punitive measures that restrict the taking of younger males and as professionals we abide by these laws. Shoot a 4 year old you loose your license and face a prison sentence and/or $10,000 fine. Thus by targeting 5 years olds you have very little margin for error.

What with todays technology all camps have access to wifi and PHs are constantly seeking advise on ageing from others or resident experts. This has been extremely helpful in the field.

Tanzania has some fantastic Lions who are of age but would seem to be restricted to the major National Parks. These Lions often appear in publications such as National Geographic.

Cecil a research Lion was stated to be 13 and a number of research Lions in the Kruger have been accurately aged at 12.

I believe you were wrong my friend!

Andrew, I would challenge "most" PH's to a debate over lions throughout Africa and their knowledge of them more than me! The live lion/s you put up pics of, are from Mushingashi - (I too have pics of the 2 brothers) a place we both know well. I also stated that my opinion is NOT 100%, but an over-all assessment of the lions I have seen / hunted from Namibia, SA, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania and C.A.R.

Fact is, male lions in most cases are NOT living past the age of 5 for very long, and that is simply the truth. If you want to dispute that with me, then fair enough - but opinion stands as it does pal.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The male lion in 95% of cases (in the wild) simply does not live to be 6+ yrs old, period! Its entirely too competitive amongst males wanting females, that once male/s are3 - 4+ yrs of age (especially if in a coalition of males) they are fighting / killing the pride males. Male lions don't just give up and walk off from their girls because they've gotten too old, they only go away when forced to do so. In doing so, I believe they are rarely leaving without a monstrous fight that either ends in their immediate demise, or one that follows not long after their departure.

I am no expert, but that is what I was saying when the 6 year old rule was being pushed: finding pride male that has been kicked out of the pride is going to be very hard because they are not going to live very long without the pride doing the hunting for them.

Male lions hunt for themselves perfectly fine, no problem at all. They don't need help hunting, I can assure you of that.

I am not talking about male lions in general. I was pointing to the fact that former pride holding males have a lot going against them once they have lost their pride. They can hunt, but weather they can kill consistently enough to live long is the question. Their weight makes them slower, their mane makes them much more visible and any injuries they sustain while loosing their pride make it harder to hunt/kill.

I guess my point is/was that their retirement is short and finding one of these kicked out pride males is going to be pretty difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
The male lion in 95% of cases (in the wild) simply does not live to be 6+ yrs old, period! Its entirely too competitive amongst males wanting females, that once male/s are3 - 4+ yrs of age (especially if in a coalition of males) they are fighting / killing the pride males. Male lions don't just give up and walk off from their girls because they've gotten too old, they only go away when forced to do so. In doing so, I believe they are rarely leaving without a monstrous fight that either ends in their immediate demise, or one that follows not long after their departure.

I am no expert, but that is what I was saying when the 6 year old rule was being pushed: finding pride male that has been kicked out of the pride is going to be very hard because they are not going to live very long without the pride doing the hunting for them.

Male lions hunt for themselves perfectly fine, no problem at all. They don't need help hunting, I can assure you of that.

I am not talking about male lions in general. I was pointing to the fact that former pride holding males have a lot going against them once they have lost their pride. They can hunt, but weather they can kill consistently enough to live long is the question. Their weight makes them slower, their mane makes them much more visible and any injuries they sustain while loosing their pride make it harder to hunt/kill.

I guess my point is/was that their retirement is short and finding one of these kicked out pride males is going to be pretty difficult.

Dude, unless the male lion is seriously injured - they hunt just fine for themselves! Regardless...my point is the same as yours - thy are dead/gone!!!

I have zero experience where African lion is concerned, other than seeing them while hunting something else. In my opinion, 90% of client hunters will have to take the PH's word for the age, and then the true age will not be learned till the lion is in the salt, and scull cleaned to examine the teeth for wear.

A good PH will be very close when judging a lion, and his assessment is all you have to take a legal lion!

....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Aaron,

You are wrong. I and a number of experienced PHs here in Zambia would not agree with you. The ageing in Zambia is finalised by an independent panel of expert judges and representatives from Panthera and the Zambia Carnivore Program with assistance from Dr. Paula White. As we all know Lions can only be accurately aged from skull and tooth analysis.

During our training and workshops we were instructed that we had to tick off a certain number of markers that would ensure the maturity of the target Lion and have to justify our decisions to the independent panel.

1. Full mane in front of ears and behind shoulder
2. Facial scarring
3. Nose more than 50% black
4. Grey colour or patchy skin
5. Absence of spot pattern on legs or belly
6. Pot belly and line of fat between leg and belly
7. Flattened tips to teeth - if visible
8. General appearance
9. Hanging jowl

Last year it was estimate 50% of the Lions taken were 6 plus. the others 5 plus and 1 was judged 4 but and was taken because he was severely injured. Only 18 Lions out of a quota of 24 were taken which was due to indecisions by the PH. I being one of them and turned down 9 males on one safari and just could not get onto the Lion that I considered 6 plus. This particular Lion has been under research by Thor Kirchner who has been monitoring him for 4 years and estimated him at 7 plus.

The pictures below are of recent lions judged to be over 6 years old and the first taken last year being expertly aged at 8 plus.

Not sure whats going on in Tanzania but if you speak with Mike Fell he has taken a series of old heavy maned Lions which I estimate to be 6-7 plus and Mike will no accept anything less.

The Lion pictured behind my camp is my target Lion this year and estimated to be 6-7 years and retains all the mentioned markers. If I can put him in the salt this year (not for want of trying) I will guarantee that I am correct and you are wrong.

However I have also been a supporter of taking the lone nomadic 5 year olds but Zambia has recently introduce stiff penalties and punitive measures that restrict the taking of younger males and as professionals we abide by these laws. Shoot a 4 year old you loose your license and face a prison sentence and/or $10,000 fine. Thus by targeting 5 years olds you have very little margin for error.

What with todays technology all camps have access to wifi and PHs are constantly seeking advise on ageing from others or resident experts. This has been extremely helpful in the field.

Tanzania has some fantastic Lions who are of age but would seem to be restricted to the major National Parks. These Lions often appear in publications such as National Geographic.

Cecil a research Lion was stated to be 13 and a number of research Lions in the Kruger have been accurately aged at 12.

I believe you were wrong my friend!

Andrew, I would challenge "most" PH's to a debate over lions throughout Africa and their knowledge of them more than me! The live lion/s you put up pics of, are from Mushingashi - (I too have pics of the 2 brothers) a place we both know well. I also stated that my opinion is NOT 100%, but an over-all assessment of the lions I have seen / hunted from Namibia, SA, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania and C.A.R.

Fact is, male lions in most cases are NOT living past the age of 5 for very long, and that is simply the truth. If you want to dispute that with me, then fair enough - but opinion stands as it does pal.

Aaron the two famous to us Mushingashi Lions have been ousted and replace by a younger males. It was those old boys that I was initially targeting. These that I post are new Lions probably coming out of the park and it is the first time that they have been photographed and are not known by Mushingashi.

The gist of your thread was that there are no mature Lions of this age to hunt yet we here over the last couple of years have consistently taken 6 year plus Lions.

Sounds to me like you as a PH in Tanzania have had a tough year and mate you just have to suck it up. I failed to get a Lion with Darin Nelson twice and had reserved what I had thought was the prime opportunity in the Kafue for her.

Beauty of hunting free range Africa is you cannot predict your day.

quote:

...my point is the same as yours - thy are dead/gone!!!

Aaron I quickly called in a number of PHs and it would seem that half a dozen have taken what they and others consider to be 7 year plus Lions!

If they will allow I can only post these pictures after the ageing process later on in the year.

Have you considered for what ever reason that your Tanzanian block simply does not have this quality of Lion?

So ultimately experts have to examine the teeth of a dead lion, then decide how old he is, within 10-12 months??

What chance in hell has the average professional hunter got in judging how old a lion is in the field?

I have actually heard some professional hunters talk about looking at a lion’s teeth, in the field!!

How often can one do that??

Exceptional lions like the ones Andrew posted are not found every day.

Lions that clients see are nowhere near as easy to judge as those, and that is where this is creating so much confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Aaron,

You are wrong. I and a number of experienced PHs here in Zambia would not agree with you. The ageing in Zambia is finalised by an independent panel of expert judges and representatives from Panthera and the Zambia Carnivore Program with assistance from Dr. Paula White. As we all know Lions can only be accurately aged from skull and tooth analysis.

During our training and workshops we were instructed that we had to tick off a certain number of markers that would ensure the maturity of the target Lion and have to justify our decisions to the independent panel.

1. Full mane in front of ears and behind shoulder
2. Facial scarring
3. Nose more than 50% black
4. Grey colour or patchy skin
5. Absence of spot pattern on legs or belly
6. Pot belly and line of fat between leg and belly
7. Flattened tips to teeth - if visible
8. General appearance
9. Hanging jowl

Last year it was estimate 50% of the Lions taken were 6 plus. the others 5 plus and 1 was judged 4 but and was taken because he was severely injured. Only 18 Lions out of a quota of 24 were taken which was due to indecisions by the PH. I being one of them and turned down 9 males on one safari and just could not get onto the Lion that I considered 6 plus. This particular Lion has been under research by Thor Kirchner who has been monitoring him for 4 years and estimated him at 7 plus.

The pictures below are of recent lions judged to be over 6 years old and the first taken last year being expertly aged at 8 plus.

Not sure whats going on in Tanzania but if you speak with Mike Fell he has taken a series of old heavy maned Lions which I estimate to be 6-7 plus and Mike will no accept anything less.

The Lion pictured behind my camp is my target Lion this year and estimated to be 6-7 years and retains all the mentioned markers. If I can put him in the salt this year (not for want of trying) I will guarantee that I am correct and you are wrong.

However I have also been a supporter of taking the lone nomadic 5 year olds but Zambia has recently introduce stiff penalties and punitive measures that restrict the taking of younger males and as professionals we abide by these laws. Shoot a 4 year old you loose your license and face a prison sentence and/or $10,000 fine. Thus by targeting 5 years olds you have very little margin for error.

What with todays technology all camps have access to wifi and PHs are constantly seeking advise on ageing from others or resident experts. This has been extremely helpful in the field.

Tanzania has some fantastic Lions who are of age but would seem to be restricted to the major National Parks. These Lions often appear in publications such as National Geographic.

Cecil a research Lion was stated to be 13 and a number of research Lions in the Kruger have been accurately aged at 12.

I believe you were wrong my friend!

Andrew, I would challenge "most" PH's to a debate over lions throughout Africa and their knowledge of them more than me! The live lion/s you put up pics of, are from Mushingashi - (I too have pics of the 2 brothers) a place we both know well. I also stated that my opinion is NOT 100%, but an over-all assessment of the lions I have seen / hunted from Namibia, SA, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania and C.A.R.

Fact is, male lions in most cases are NOT living past the age of 5 for very long, and that is simply the truth. If you want to dispute that with me, then fair enough - but opinion stands as it does pal.

Aaron the two famous to us Mushingashi Lions have been ousted and replace by a younger males. It was those old boys that I was initially targeting. These that I post are new Lions probably coming out of the park and it is the first time that they have been photographed and are not known by Mushingashi.

The gist of your thread was that there are no mature Lions of this age to hunt yet we here over the last couple of years have consistently taken 6 year plus Lions.

Sounds to me like you as a PH in Tanzania have had a tough year and mate you just have to suck it up. I failed to get a Lion with Darin Nelson twice and had reserved what I had thought was the prime opportunity in the Kafue for her.

Beauty of hunting free range Africa is you cannot predict your day.

Andrew, that's a silly statement - I never said there is NO 6+ year old lions.

Buddy, I know the facts and I know what I say is a fact! I've hunted plenty of lions in your neck of the woods - in its prime to be accurate! I was in the Kafue before you ever showed with Richard, and with a 3 yr no hunting period preceeding us!!

Fact is, after shooting 2 huge lions in the same year (2003) pickings were slim, and I was there again in 2005, 2007, 2009 and 2011 - hunting lions. In 2003, I spent 7 weeks in Lunga with Richie, we explored everywhere we could find / think of!!

The western Kafue is my favorite place of all, but selling hunts / and knowing what I know are two different things bro!!!

Aaron,

I was in the Kafue before Richard and I managed both the Lunga and Mulobezi concessions for John Valahkis and Russ Broom. We were taking out 8 extraordinary Lions a year with ease.

In those days you were simply sold you a Lion and the stipulation was it had to have some mane and we hunted and shot whatever looked good. Interesting to note that your client Lary took a series of Lions in Lunga estimated between 6 - 9 years. Guess he was just lucky?

But mate I have just posted a number of pictures of 6 plus year old Lions from this year so I am not really sure what you are saying?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Need to see the skulls with teeth.

That's the point....you don't get to see that in a live lion, when hunting!

No. You opined as to the ages of your dead lions.

Not sure what’s the basis for those opinions.

My point is simply that posting photos of the skulls with teeth of those dead cats would help us in the judging.

I tend to agree strongly with Andrew on this matter, but could be wrong, of course.

Field judging a lion is one thing, aging them is another. The truth is Michael, even tooth aging is only accurate to within 10 - 12 months bro.....period! Fact is, you can't see their skull / teeth when hunting in the field.

Not talking about field judging live lions, but rather aging dead lions.

You have apparently done that with yours, although you haven’t shared how you’ve done it.

Skulls with teeth are usually available for doing that and are as scientifically definitive as it gets.

Field judging is damned difficult, but for the sake of the species, so be it.

Absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which I have not seen or heard tell of, I will support the 6 year rule.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Need to see the skulls with teeth.

That's the point....you don't get to see that in a live lion, when hunting!

No. You opined as to the ages of your dead lions.

Not sure what’s the basis for those opinions.

My point is simply that posting photos of the skulls with teeth of those dead cats would help us in the judging.

I tend to agree strongly with Andrew on this matter, but could be wrong, of course.

Field judging a lion is one thing, aging them is another. The truth is Michael, even tooth aging is only accurate to within 10 - 12 months bro.....period! Fact is, you can't see their skull / teeth when hunting in the field.

Not talking about field judging live lions, but rather aging dead lions.

You have apparently done that with yours, although you haven’t shared how you’ve done it.

Skulls with teeth are usually available for doing that and are as scientifically definitive as it gets.

Field judging is damned difficult, but for the sake of the species, so be it.

Absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which I have not seen or heard tell of, I will support the 6 year rule.

Mike very quickly if i told you to shoot this lion without debate would you believe my judgement? You would.

Mike very quickly if i told you to shoot this lion without debate would you believe my judgement? You would.

[/QUOTE]

Andrew, without any hesitation.

Well said Aaron, you are the only one of the original proponents of the 6 year old lion "project" to come out so far - very upstanding of you.

I hunted for 29 years, totally in big game areas, Matetsi, Zambezi valley, Forestry etc. in Zim and then the gamut of blocks here in Tanzania. I have guided a lot of hunters to a lot of lions, but am the and was the first to admit that there is no way I could judge the age of a lion under normal big game hunting conditions, except to be sure to shoot good old specimens.

I always maintained that while laudable - the 6 year old lion rule was extremely impractical and worse, the proponents of it on "our" side of the fence lobbied and assisted various African governments to ENACT LEGISLATION. How smart was that? The result in Tz has been multiple lions held back from export, heavy fines imposed on PH's/client hunters and even threats to the licences of some extremely old and respected PH's.

And quite frankly PH's sending whatsapp pictures to "groups" of other PH's asking their opinion of a lion's age before shooting is not exactly in keeping with the "dangerous game in wild country" type of hunting that lions bring people to Africa for.

Anyway the result is clear, by trying with "our" best intentions to show willing and work with "scientists" and Governments, a lot less hunters paying very big dollars to hunt a lion have either gone home empty handed or had major issues getting their trophy home.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
My extremely limited experience with lion is consistent with Aaron's comments. I hunted lion only once in Tanzania in 2015, I think. Anyway, not counting the pictures we looked at from trailcams, we saw two males that warranted a closer look. My PH called one at 5, a definite no go. The other we simply came upon and tracked for a few hours. Bumped him twice, but never could get a good enough look. PH called him "probably" 6, but not being able to see him on a bait and look him over carefully, it's really hard to tell, so he walked. He was alone and mature. I agree with Aaron on that lion.

I rest my case, the 6 year old rule precluded this hunter from taking a big trophy lion tracking.... by far the finest and most sporting way to shoot a lion.

I too, am not sure what the point of the OP is? Is it to reduce the age limit from 6 to 5?

Let me remind everyone that the science behind the issue opted for age 6 for 2 main reasons:
1- To err on the side of caution
2- to allow a male lion who claimed a pride to be able to raise at least 2 sets of offspring to adulthood;

And these were key in ensuring long term population sustainability of lion in any particular area!

I too agree with Andrew's overview. We are seeing regularly 6+ year old lion in our areas in Tz.

I believe that a lot of us are expecting an average hunting block to end up with dozens of 6+ male lions roaming around due to over-estimating the lion populations in these areas. An average block of approx 1000sqkm of good lion country (right habitat, good prey base and adequate protection) won't hold more than 5-6 resident and transient lion prides and a block with average lion country probably 3-4. So how many old lion does one expect to get with these numbers? Probably not more than 2-3 at any one time. That ain't easy to find in 1000sqkm of bush with less than 400sqkm of hunting tracks on average....

An old male that has been ousted from a pride will shy away and live out the rest of its life in the least hospitable part of the area as the pride male will have first choice of prime range lands, which is where most PHs focus their hunt in. Old, lone males become elusive to the extreme, but they are there even if for not very long.

These remain the best target lion for sustainable lion hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I too, am not sure what the point of the OP is? Is it to reduce the age limit from 6 to 5?

Let me remind everyone that the science behind the issue opted for age 6 for 2 main reasons:
1- To err on the side of caution
2- to allow a male lion who claimed a pride to be able to raise at least 2 sets of offspring to adulthood;

And these were key in ensuring long term population sustainability of lion in any particular area!

I too agree with Andrew's overview. We are seeing regularly 6+ year old lion in our areas in Tz.

I believe that a lot of us are expecting an average hunting block to end up with dozens of 6+ male lions roaming around due to over-estimating the lion populations in these areas. An average block of approx 1000sqkm of good lion country (right habitat, good prey base and adequate protection) won't hold more than 5-6 resident and transient lion prides and a block with average lion country probably 3-4. So how many old lion does one expect to get with these numbers? Probably not more than 2-3 at any one time. That ain't easy to find in 1000sqkm of bush with less than 400sqkm of hunting tracks on average....

An old male that has been ousted from a pride will shy away and live out the rest of its life in the least hospitable part of the area as the pride male will have first choice of prime range lands, which is where most PHs focus their hunt in. Old, lone males become elusive to the extreme, but they are there even if for not very long.

These remain the best target lion for sustainable lion hunting.

I have zero skin in the game, but externally, this seems very reasonable. The original post seemed to be a frustration at a lack of targets, not that it was in the best interest of the lions themselves. I get the idea of conservation through hunting, but these are trying times for the hunter, and especially the lion hunter (I would think). The idea of hunting lion more and shooting them less (as Andrew inferred above) seems like something the hunter/conservationist would agree with. Maybe in this day and age a successful lion hunt *should* be a rare thing. If hunters don't want to hunt because the odds are increasingly lower they will find a shootable animal, maybe they should re-examine why they are hunting lion in the first place. These are lions, after all, not zebra or impala. This seems a good test of hunter's intentions and whether they walk the Gasset walk or not.

Good thread.