quote:

Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc.
A Texas based non-profit organization
Dedicated to conserving Africa’s wild-lions and habitat
P.O. Box 665
Gainesville, Texas 76241
Phone: 303-619-2872 or 903-271-2752
Fax: 580-276-1606
E-mail: ledvm@msn.com and globalhunts@aol.com


Public Comments Processing, Attn: FWS-R9-ES-2012-0025
Division of Policy and Directives Management
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
4401 N. Fairfax Drive, MS 2042-PDM; Arlington, VA 22203

February 8, 2013



Dear Dr. Brisendine and Colleagues,

While estimates vary and exact counts are non existent, it is estimated that approximately 30,000 African lions remain in the wild. Their long-term survival is threatened primarily by loss of habitat, retaliatory killing over depredation on livestock, poaching for bone sales to the Middle and Far East, snaring, and the loss of prey.

There are concerns about the negative impact of trophy hunting on lion populations but the extent of the effects is unknown. The Lion Conservation Task Force (LCTF) does agree that with the ongoing decline in global populations of lions and the lion’s range…that reform is warranted in the trophy lion hunting industry, but we are concerned that an up-listing to Endangered status in the US may have unexpected negative consequences for conservation. With 60% of the current sport hunted trophies being imported into the US, up-listing would virtually put an end to the trophy hunting industry in many areas by making it economically unfeasible with resultant impact on the viability of hunting as a form of land use, but would not influence other human causes of lion mortality.


There is an old saying in Africa: “It must pay for it to stay”. While this may be foreign to our way of thinking in the US…it is a fact of life in Africa and one that must be considered.

Lion hunting gives value to the lion and the land they inhabit. This value transforms into habitat preservation, acts as a deterrent against poaching and retaliatory killing, revenue to wildlife authorities for conservation in areas that would otherwise be unsupported (most hunting blocks are unsuitable to photo-tourisms), and continued revenue for under funded wildlife authorities. Rather than eliminating ways for wildlife to generate income, we need to find more ways for rural Africans to benefit from wildlife.

LCTF Recommendations:

• Primarily, we support reform of lion hunting rather than trophy importation restrictions. Science-based management must be implemented by all range countries to ensure that lion hunting is beneficial rather than detrimental to the long term survival of the species. Research has shown that there is a non-impact huntable subset of male lions. Thus, we have defined the ‘Huntable Male Lion’.


The Definition is as follows:
The hunting and scientific communities agree that lion hunting must be biologically sustainable, in which harvests should have no negative long-term impact on lion populations. An essential step in attaining sustainability is the adoption of standards on what is a ‘huntable’ male lion; that is, a lion that can be hunted without any negative effect on the sustainability of the local population from which it is removed.

The most important factor to consider is age. The exact age of a huntable male lion is dependent upon many regional factors such as habitat and associated differences in lion ecology and social structure and thus, may vary slightly regionally, but the general concept holds true for all. The below definition has been endorsed by scientists working in Tanzania, Mozambique and Zambia.

Huntable male lions are defined as those male lions whose off-take has no negative impact on the sustainability of local lion population dynamics. Research has shown that these are typically lions six years of age or more that have completed at least one breeding cycle. To reduce risks of infanticide, males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less) should not be hunted. Based on these considerations, a huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs. The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.

For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion. Research models have confirmed that responsible hunting does not alter wild lion population dynamics if restricted to males which meet the criteria of a huntable lion.

Authors:
Colleen Begg, Ph.D
Project Leader, Niassa Carnivore Project
Niassa National Reserve, Mozambique


J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force


George Hartley, BA, LL.B
Professional Hunter
Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris


Luke Hunter, Ph.D
President
PANTHERA

Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

Craig Packer, Ph.D.
Distinguished McKnight University Professor
Department of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior
University of Minnesota
Principal Investigator, Serengeti Lion Project

Paula A. White, Ph.D
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

Karyl L. Whitman, Ph.D
Wildlife Biologist
Co-Author, A Hunter’s Guide to Aging Lions in Eastern and Southern Africa

The LCTF is working to accomplish global acceptance of this definition and currently in the US…the Dallas Safari Club has adopted it and Safari Club International has it under advisement and consideration for adoption. In Africa, the Tanzania Professional Hunting Association is considering adoption. We will continue to strive for universal acceptance of this definition.



• Secondarily, the LCTF also supports law reform in all range countries. We would like to see universal adoption of laws enforcing rules similar to those of the Niassa National Reserve in Mozambique.


Lion Hunting Rules Proposed by LCTF
1. General Rules

1.1 Elected trophies:
• Only male lions may be hunted.
• Only adult males, which are a minimum of 6 years old, may be hunted as the hunting of young lions can cause severe disruption to pride structure and, if excessive, can cause a population to collapse.
• As a rule no problem lions (e.g. man eaters) should be sold as trophy animals. However, should a client be in a position to hunt a problem lion (and specifically man eaters) the issue of the operator/client retaining and exporting the trophy will be assessed by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY on a case by case basis.

1.2 Trophy monitoring:
• For each lion on quota, a monitoring kit will be provided by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY containing a datasheet and blood sample paper.
• For each lion trophy, the Professional Hunter is expected to take photographs (side view, front view of head and shoulder, nose, teeth and full body), and a blood sample from bullet wound while in the field.
• All questions on the datasheet must also be completed.



2 Trophy Quality Control

2.1 Responsibility: monitoring of trophy quality shall be conducted by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.

2.2 Procedure: The APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY shall arrange to collect trophy kits (photographs, blood samples and datasheets) from the operators and measure and age the skulls before trophies are certified for export.

2.3 Export eligibility: Absolutely no lion verified by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY to be less than 4 years of age shall be eligible for export.



3. Assigning of Quotas:

3.1 Points System:
• Quotas will be assigned independently for each concession dependant on the age of lion trophies taken in the previous hunting season according to the Points System.
• The points system is self-regulating; it rewards ecologically sound hunting by allowing an increase in the quota to a maximum of five. Hunting of young lions under the age of six years is penalized. Operators receive no decrease in quota for not shooting a lion.
• Using this system, the off-take in each block will increase or decrease in accordance with real densities in each concession, accounting for hunting effort, anti-poaching measures (i.e. decreased illegal off-take) and natural population fluctuations (disease, drought etc.).
• The maximum of five lion for each concession is in place initially to ensure that the quota remains within 2 - 4% of the predicted adult male population. It is considered unlikely in the foreseeable future that more than five male lions of appropriate age will be available in each block. However this can be reassessed in the future.
• New concessions will be awarded an initial quota of two lions.
• If the quota is reduced to zero (i.e. only young lions are shot in the previous year), no quota is provided for the next year, but the quota will start at one lion the following year.
• Details of all trophies (datasheets, photographs of mane, teeth and nose) will be kept on file with APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY. It is mandatory that a premolar be made available from each trophy so that field aging techniques can be fine-tuned over time.

3.2 Procedure:

The Points System is a three-step process:

Step 1:
At the end of each hunting season each lion trophy taken is aged by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY representatives based on teeth, nose color, mane development and general body condition.

Step 2:see Niassa Reserve Rules above to understand this chart...it did not transfer well...they are the same
Points are assigned to each trophy according to the following system.
Number of Points for Each Trophy
Quota >6yrs No Trophy 4-6 yrs <4 yrs incomplete info
quota of
3 or more 4 3 2 -3 0
quota of
2 4 3 2 0 0
quota of
1 6 3 0 0 0

For each concession, points are tallied for that year, divided by 3, rounded up to next whole number up to a maximum of 5 lions and that is the quota issued for the next hunting season.

Step 3:
The APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY will endeavor to inform operators of the new quota to allow time for marketing at safari shows in January.

3.3 Unethical Behavior:

In cases of Safari Operators or Professional Hunters behaving unethically (according to the applicable law in the country), APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY may apply more severe actions, which might include trophy confiscation or PH License confiscation or cancellation of the lease agreement with the operator.

It is considered unethical behavior to hunt a lion less than 6 years of age. Specific additional penalties for hunting a lion less than 6 years of age are outlined below and will be levied by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY:

• Lions less than 4.0 years of age
o Export will not be allowed and the trophy becomes the property of the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.
o The PH responsible for the harvest of a lion in this category will automatically have his/her license suspended for the following hunting season. After 2 suspensions for this violation, a third offense results in a permanent life long ban from obtaining a PH license.

• Lions 4.0 – 4.11 years of age
Export of this category will be allowed with a double trophy fee paid by the client. The second trophy fee will be levied after age certification and will be paid prior to export.

• Lions 4.0 – 5.11 years of age
If a PH harvests 3 or more of these in any consecutive 5 year period or less, an automatic suspension of his/her Dangerous Game license for the period of one year will occur.



4. Trophy Export
• The standard operating procedures apply.
• Only trophies certified as 4 years old or older, after credible post mortem inspection by qualified inspectors of the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY, can be exported.
o Lions certified to be in the age range of 4.0 – 4.11 may only be eligible for export after a second additional trophy fee is paid in full.


Tanzania has already adopted a “six-year-old-rule” and is presently ‘considering’ amending its laws to mimic those written above. Of course Mozambique has ‘similar rules’ in the Niassa Reserve and the LCTF is applying pressure for these rules to be put in place in Zambia, Zimbabwe, Namibia, and other Range Countries.



In Conclusion:
The LCTF believes strongly in ethical sustainable hunting as a conservation tool. We also believe strongly that if the governments of the range countries, the hunting industry, and the client hunters themselves embrace rules and definitions as laid out in this letter along adequate protection from poaching that the lion populations will begin to increase to carrying capacity.

We feel strongly that with the positive changes that ‘ARE’ occurring that any unilateral action taken by the USF&WS such as an up-list to endangered status would have catastrophic effects.

Therefore, with the negative consequences of an up-list laid out and the beginning of acceptance of these current recommendations taking place, the LCTF recommends against the African Lion being listed as endangered under the Endangered Species Act.



Sincerely,



J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force



Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I too, am not sure what the point of the OP is? Is it to reduce the age limit from 6 to 5?

Let me remind everyone that the science behind the issue opted for age 6 for 2 main reasons:
1- To err on the side of caution
2- to allow a male lion who claimed a pride to be able to raise at least 2 sets of offspring to adulthood;

And these were key in ensuring long term population sustainability of lion in any particular area!

I too agree with Andrew's overview. We are seeing regularly 6+ year old lion in our areas in Tz.

I believe that a lot of us are expecting an average hunting block to end up with dozens of 6+ male lions roaming around due to over-estimating the lion populations in these areas. An average block of approx 1000sqkm of good lion country (right habitat, good prey base and adequate protection) won't hold more than 5-6 resident and transient lion prides and a block with average lion country probably 3-4. So how many old lion does one expect to get with these numbers? Probably not more than 2-3 at any one time. That ain't easy to find in 1000sqkm of bush with less than 400sqkm of hunting tracks on average....

An old male that has been ousted from a pride will shy away and live out the rest of its life in the least hospitable part of the area as the pride male will have first choice of prime range lands, which is where most PHs focus their hunt in. Old, lone males become elusive to the extreme, but they are there even if for not very long.

These remain the best target lion for sustainable lion hunting.

I have zero skin in the game, but externally, this seems very reasonable. The original post seemed to be a frustration at a lack of targets, not that it was in the best interest of the lions themselves. I get the idea of conservation through hunting, but these are trying times for the hunter, and especially the lion hunter (I would think). The idea of hunting lion more and shooting them less (as Andrew inferred above) seems like something the hunter/conservationist would agree with. Maybe in this day and age a successful lion hunt *should* be a rare thing. If hunters don't want to hunt because the odds are increasingly lower they will find a shootable animal, maybe they should re-examine why they are hunting lion in the first place. These are lions, after all, not zebra or impala. This seems a good test of hunter's intentions and whether they walk the Gasset walk or not.

Good thread.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Mike very quickly if i told you to shoot this lion without debate would you believe my judgement? You would.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I too, am not sure what the point of the OP is? Is it to reduce the age limit from 6 to 5?

Let me remind everyone that the science behind the issue opted for age 6 for 2 main reasons:
1- To err on the side of caution
2- to allow a male lion who claimed a pride to be able to raise at least 2 sets of offspring to adulthood;

And these were key in ensuring long term population sustainability of lion in any particular area!

I too agree with Andrew's overview. We are seeing regularly 6+ year old lion in our areas in Tz.

I believe that a lot of us are expecting an average hunting block to end up with dozens of 6+ male lions roaming around due to over-estimating the lion populations in these areas. An average block of approx 1000sqkm of good lion country (right habitat, good prey base and adequate protection) won't hold more than 5-6 resident and transient lion prides and a block with average lion country probably 3-4. So how many old lion does one expect to get with these numbers? Probably not more than 2-3 at any one time. That ain't easy to find in 1000sqkm of bush with less than 400sqkm of hunting tracks on average....

An old male that has been ousted from a pride will shy away and live out the rest of its life in the least hospitable part of the area as the pride male will have first choice of prime range lands, which is where most PHs focus their hunt in. Old, lone males become elusive to the extreme, but they are there even if for not very long.

These remain the best target lion for sustainable lion hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If you go back read what was advocated for by the LCTF (Aaron & I) years ago...I believed and still believe it was a happy moderation of the hard-and-fast 6 year old rule.

And Aaron is truthful saying his stance was always for 5s being allowed. The quote below shows what I am posting.

That said...we, at the time, were working to unite science and hunting and MOSTLY to PREVENT what actually happened in the US.

With some cooperation and compromise on BOTH sides our plan could have worked and all could be different today. But as the old saying goes: “if wishes were fishes...we’d have a big fry.”

Please actually read the below:

quote:

Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc.
A Texas based non-profit organization
Dedicated to conserving Africa’s wild-lions and habitat
P.O. Box 665
Gainesville, Texas 76241
Phone: 303-619-2872 or 903-271-2752
Fax: 580-276-1606
E-mail: ledvm@msn.com and globalhunts@aol.com


Public Comments Processing, Attn: FWS-R9-ES-2012-0025
Division of Policy and Directives Management
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
4401 N. Fairfax Drive, MS 2042-PDM; Arlington, VA 22203

February 8, 2013



Dear Dr. Brisendine and Colleagues,

While estimates vary and exact counts are non existent, it is estimated that approximately 30,000 African lions remain in the wild. Their long-term survival is threatened primarily by loss of habitat, retaliatory killing over depredation on livestock, poaching for bone sales to the Middle and Far East, snaring, and the loss of prey.

There are concerns about the negative impact of trophy hunting on lion populations but the extent of the effects is unknown. The Lion Conservation Task Force (LCTF) does agree that with the ongoing decline in global populations of lions and the lion’s range…that reform is warranted in the trophy lion hunting industry, but we are concerned that an up-listing to Endangered status in the US may have unexpected negative consequences for conservation. With 60% of the current sport hunted trophies being imported into the US, up-listing would virtually put an end to the trophy hunting industry in many areas by making it economically unfeasible with resultant impact on the viability of hunting as a form of land use, but would not influence other human causes of lion mortality.


There is an old saying in Africa: “It must pay for it to stay”. While this may be foreign to our way of thinking in the US…it is a fact of life in Africa and one that must be considered.

Lion hunting gives value to the lion and the land they inhabit. This value transforms into habitat preservation, acts as a deterrent against poaching and retaliatory killing, revenue to wildlife authorities for conservation in areas that would otherwise be unsupported (most hunting blocks are unsuitable to photo-tourisms), and continued revenue for under funded wildlife authorities. Rather than eliminating ways for wildlife to generate income, we need to find more ways for rural Africans to benefit from wildlife.

LCTF Recommendations:

• Primarily, we support reform of lion hunting rather than trophy importation restrictions. Science-based management must be implemented by all range countries to ensure that lion hunting is beneficial rather than detrimental to the long term survival of the species. Research has shown that there is a non-impact huntable subset of male lions. Thus, we have defined the ‘Huntable Male Lion’.


The Definition is as follows:
The hunting and scientific communities agree that lion hunting must be biologically sustainable, in which harvests should have no negative long-term impact on lion populations. An essential step in attaining sustainability is the adoption of standards on what is a ‘huntable’ male lion; that is, a lion that can be hunted without any negative effect on the sustainability of the local population from which it is removed.

The most important factor to consider is age. The exact age of a huntable male lion is dependent upon many regional factors such as habitat and associated differences in lion ecology and social structure and thus, may vary slightly regionally, but the general concept holds true for all. The below definition has been endorsed by scientists working in Tanzania, Mozambique and Zambia.

Huntable male lions are defined as those male lions whose off-take has no negative impact on the sustainability of local lion population dynamics. Research has shown that these are typically lions six years of age or more that have completed at least one breeding cycle. To reduce risks of infanticide, males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less) should not be hunted. Based on these considerations, a huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs. The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.

For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion. Research models have confirmed that responsible hunting does not alter wild lion population dynamics if restricted to males which meet the criteria of a huntable lion.

Authors:
Colleen Begg, Ph.D
Project Leader, Niassa Carnivore Project
Niassa National Reserve, Mozambique


J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force


George Hartley, BA, LL.B
Professional Hunter
Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris


Luke Hunter, Ph.D
President
PANTHERA

Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

Craig Packer, Ph.D.
Distinguished McKnight University Professor
Department of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior
University of Minnesota
Principal Investigator, Serengeti Lion Project

Paula A. White, Ph.D
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

Karyl L. Whitman, Ph.D
Wildlife Biologist
Co-Author, A Hunter’s Guide to Aging Lions in Eastern and Southern Africa

The LCTF is working to accomplish global acceptance of this definition and currently in the US…the Dallas Safari Club has adopted it and Safari Club International has it under advisement and consideration for adoption. In Africa, the Tanzania Professional Hunting Association is considering adoption. We will continue to strive for universal acceptance of this definition.



• Secondarily, the LCTF also supports law reform in all range countries. We would like to see universal adoption of laws enforcing rules similar to those of the Niassa National Reserve in Mozambique.


Lion Hunting Rules Proposed by LCTF
1. General Rules

1.1 Elected trophies:
• Only male lions may be hunted.
• Only adult males, which are a minimum of 6 years old, may be hunted as the hunting of young lions can cause severe disruption to pride structure and, if excessive, can cause a population to collapse.
• As a rule no problem lions (e.g. man eaters) should be sold as trophy animals. However, should a client be in a position to hunt a problem lion (and specifically man eaters) the issue of the operator/client retaining and exporting the trophy will be assessed by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY on a case by case basis.

1.2 Trophy monitoring:
• For each lion on quota, a monitoring kit will be provided by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY containing a datasheet and blood sample paper.
• For each lion trophy, the Professional Hunter is expected to take photographs (side view, front view of head and shoulder, nose, teeth and full body), and a blood sample from bullet wound while in the field.
• All questions on the datasheet must also be completed.



2 Trophy Quality Control

2.1 Responsibility: monitoring of trophy quality shall be conducted by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.

2.2 Procedure: The APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY shall arrange to collect trophy kits (photographs, blood samples and datasheets) from the operators and measure and age the skulls before trophies are certified for export.

2.3 Export eligibility: Absolutely no lion verified by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY to be less than 4 years of age shall be eligible for export.



3. Assigning of Quotas:

3.1 Points System:
• Quotas will be assigned independently for each concession dependant on the age of lion trophies taken in the previous hunting season according to the Points System.
• The points system is self-regulating; it rewards ecologically sound hunting by allowing an increase in the quota to a maximum of five. Hunting of young lions under the age of six years is penalized. Operators receive no decrease in quota for not shooting a lion.
• Using this system, the off-take in each block will increase or decrease in accordance with real densities in each concession, accounting for hunting effort, anti-poaching measures (i.e. decreased illegal off-take) and natural population fluctuations (disease, drought etc.).
• The maximum of five lion for each concession is in place initially to ensure that the quota remains within 2 - 4% of the predicted adult male population. It is considered unlikely in the foreseeable future that more than five male lions of appropriate age will be available in each block. However this can be reassessed in the future.
• New concessions will be awarded an initial quota of two lions.
• If the quota is reduced to zero (i.e. only young lions are shot in the previous year), no quota is provided for the next year, but the quota will start at one lion the following year.
• Details of all trophies (datasheets, photographs of mane, teeth and nose) will be kept on file with APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY. It is mandatory that a premolar be made available from each trophy so that field aging techniques can be fine-tuned over time.

3.2 Procedure:

The Points System is a three-step process:

Step 1:
At the end of each hunting season each lion trophy taken is aged by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY representatives based on teeth, nose color, mane development and general body condition.

Step 2:see Niassa Reserve Rules above to understand this chart...it did not transfer well...they are the same
Points are assigned to each trophy according to the following system.
Number of Points for Each Trophy
Quota >6yrs No Trophy 4-6 yrs <4 yrs incomplete info
quota of
3 or more 4 3 2 -3 0
quota of
2 4 3 2 0 0
quota of
1 6 3 0 0 0

For each concession, points are tallied for that year, divided by 3, rounded up to next whole number up to a maximum of 5 lions and that is the quota issued for the next hunting season.

Step 3:
The APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY will endeavor to inform operators of the new quota to allow time for marketing at safari shows in January.

3.3 Unethical Behavior:

In cases of Safari Operators or Professional Hunters behaving unethically (according to the applicable law in the country), APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY may apply more severe actions, which might include trophy confiscation or PH License confiscation or cancellation of the lease agreement with the operator.

It is considered unethical behavior to hunt a lion less than 6 years of age. Specific additional penalties for hunting a lion less than 6 years of age are outlined below and will be levied by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY:

• Lions less than 4.0 years of age
o Export will not be allowed and the trophy becomes the property of the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.
o The PH responsible for the harvest of a lion in this category will automatically have his/her license suspended for the following hunting season. After 2 suspensions for this violation, a third offense results in a permanent life long ban from obtaining a PH license.

• Lions 4.0 – 4.11 years of age
Export of this category will be allowed with a double trophy fee paid by the client. The second trophy fee will be levied after age certification and will be paid prior to export.

• Lions 4.0 – 5.11 years of age
If a PH harvests 3 or more of these in any consecutive 5 year period or less, an automatic suspension of his/her Dangerous Game license for the period of one year will occur.



4. Trophy Export
• The standard operating procedures apply.
• Only trophies certified as 4 years old or older, after credible post mortem inspection by qualified inspectors of the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY, can be exported.
o Lions certified to be in the age range of 4.0 – 4.11 may only be eligible for export after a second additional trophy fee is paid in full.


Tanzania has already adopted a “six-year-old-rule” and is presently ‘considering’ amending its laws to mimic those written above. Of course Mozambique has ‘similar rules’ in the Niassa Reserve and the LCTF is applying pressure for these rules to be put in place in Zambia, Zimbabwe, Namibia, and other Range Countries.



In Conclusion:
The LCTF believes strongly in ethical sustainable hunting as a conservation tool. We also believe strongly that if the governments of the range countries, the hunting industry, and the client hunters themselves embrace rules and definitions as laid out in this letter along adequate protection from poaching that the lion populations will begin to increase to carrying capacity.

We feel strongly that with the positive changes that ‘ARE’ occurring that any unilateral action taken by the USF&WS such as an up-list to endangered status would have catastrophic effects.

Therefore, with the negative consequences of an up-list laid out and the beginning of acceptance of these current recommendations taking place, the LCTF recommends against the African Lion being listed as endangered under the Endangered Species Act.



Sincerely,



J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force



Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Aaron,

You are wrong. I and a number of experienced PHs here in Zambia would not agree with you. The ageing in Zambia is finalised by an independent panel of expert judges and representatives from Panthera and the Zambia Carnivore Program with assistance from Dr. Paula White. As we all know Lions can only be accurately aged from skull and tooth analysis.

During our training and workshops we were instructed that we had to tick off a certain number of markers that would ensure the maturity of the target Lion and have to justify our decisions to the independent panel.

1. Full mane in front of ears and behind shoulder
2. Facial scarring
3. Nose more than 50% black
4. Grey colour or patchy skin
5. Absence of spot pattern on legs or belly
6. Pot belly and line of fat between leg and belly
7. Flattened tips to teeth - if visible
8. General appearance
9. Hanging jowl

Last year it was estimate 50% of the Lions taken were 6 plus. the others 5 plus and 1 was judged 4 but and was taken because he was severely injured. Only 18 Lions out of a quota of 24 were taken which was due to indecisions by the PH. I being one of them and turned down 9 males on one safari and just could not get onto the Lion that I considered 6 plus. This particular Lion has been under research by Thor Kirchner who has been monitoring him for 4 years and estimated him at 7 plus.

The pictures below are of recent lions judged to be over 6 years old and the first taken last year being expertly aged at 8 plus.

Not sure whats going on in Tanzania but if you speak with Mike Fell he has taken a series of old heavy maned Lions which I estimate to be 6-7 plus and Mike will no accept anything less.

The Lion pictured behind my camp is my target Lion this year and estimated to be 6-7 years and retains all the mentioned markers. If I can put him in the salt this year (not for want of trying) I will guarantee that I am correct and you are wrong.

However I have also been a supporter of taking the lone nomadic 5 year olds but Zambia has recently introduce stiff penalties and punitive measures that restrict the taking of younger males and as professionals we abide by these laws. Shoot a 4 year old you loose your license and face a prison sentence and/or $10,000 fine. Thus by targeting 5 years olds you have very little margin for error.

What with todays technology all camps have access to wifi and PHs are constantly seeking advise on ageing from others or resident experts. This has been extremely helpful in the field.

Tanzania has some fantastic Lions who are of age but would seem to be restricted to the major National Parks. These Lions often appear in publications such as National Geographic.

Cecil a research Lion was stated to be 13 and a number of research Lions in the Kruger have been accurately aged at 12.

I believe you were wrong my friend!

Andrew, I would challenge "most" PH's to a debate over lions throughout Africa and their knowledge of them more than me! The live lion/s you put up pics of, are from Mushingashi - (I too have pics of the 2 brothers) a place we both know well. I also stated that my opinion is NOT 100%, but an over-all assessment of the lions I have seen / hunted from Namibia, SA, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania and C.A.R.

Fact is, male lions in most cases are NOT living past the age of 5 for very long, and that is simply the truth. If you want to dispute that with me, then fair enough - but opinion stands as it does pal.

Aaron the two famous to us Mushingashi Lions have been ousted and replace by a younger males. It was those old boys that I was initially targeting. These that I post are new Lions probably coming out of the park and it is the first time that they have been photographed and are not known by Mushingashi.

The gist of your thread was that there are no mature Lions of this age to hunt yet we here over the last couple of years have consistently taken 6 year plus Lions.

Sounds to me like you as a PH in Tanzania have had a tough year and mate you just have to suck it up. I failed to get a Lion with Darin Nelson twice and had reserved what I had thought was the prime opportunity in the Kafue for her.

Beauty of hunting free range Africa is you cannot predict your day.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Mike very quickly if i told you to shoot this lion without debate would you believe my judgement? You would.

Yes. But then again, I don't support import/export prohibitions or ridiculously high fines for honest mistakes!

The 6 year rule is a good one, IMHO. But it does need to be flexible, to take the difficulty of field judging into account, and provide for a reasonable margin of error.

quote:

Secondly, a prime area / with only one lion now available on quota per block, per year (been that way for several years now) and everybody only shooting 6 yr old plus males. How in the world did you go away with Darin unsuccessful? Sounds like you're the one having a rough go bro, not me!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Secondly, a prime area / with only one lion now available on quota per block, per year (been that way for several years now) and everybody only shooting 6 yr old plus males. How in the world did you go away with Darin unsuccessful? Sounds like you're the one having a rough go bro, not me!

Hi Mate,

Darin did well with me and only paid PG rates shot a few buffalo and was given a Sable for her birthday.

The Lion photographed above was my target Lion and he only turned up after she had departed.

Yes I was disappointed but I will shoot him and who ever squeezes the trigger will have a trophy of a life time.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Steve416:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Secondly, a prime area / with only one lion now available on quota per block, per year (been that way for several years now) and everybody only shooting 6 yr old plus males. How in the world did you go away with Darin unsuccessful? Sounds like you're the one having a rough go bro, not me!

Hi Mate,

Darin did well with me and only paid PG rates shot a few buffalo and was given a Sable for her birthday.

The Lion photographed above was my target Lion and he only turned up after she had departed.

Yes I was disappointed but I will shoot him and who ever squeezes the trigger will have a trophy of a life time.

Cheers

I have seen the benefit of considered aging and knowledgeable PH's.

I was at Royal in September this year after Darin has not succeeded ....and Andrew very graciously offered me the tag. Despite our best efforts the Lion that Andrew was targeting did not show himself ...although we heard what we thought was him.
Next time.

Despite my pushing , Andrew was very careful in his evaluation of our Lion from Luangwa last year which was aged at 8.

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My Lion from Zim in 2012 was aged at 7.


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quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Aaron - When you and Lane initially bought up this topic you were both very passionate about it. I had some heated debates with you both! I am interested in your change of thoughts and happy to say we are thinking more down the same lines now!. I said then and I will say again-

1/IF quotas are realistic the age factor becomes far less important.

2/Phs in the field can only realistically age a lion as A/ Immature, B/ mature c/ Old. If it falls into the B and C category and the CLIENT IS HAPPY with it - shoot it.

3/Just because you have a nice single OLD/ Mature lion on bait it does not mean he is not part of a pride. These males wander away from their prides for weeks at a time. We have proved this with trail cameras.

4/I am not in favor of the age rule as such. However I will say it has had its desired effect in the Zambezi Valley through default.

Through the aging process or more directly " the fear of the fines/ quota reduction the PH and operators have been too scared to make the call, often at the detriment of the poor client.

This has resulted in FAR fewer lions been shot and hence older cats coming through and better quality cats been shot. We have seen this in Dande where our last 3 cats have been outstanding.

Had we just had realistic quotas from the off set I do believe we would have been experiencing the same quality lions that we are getting now without having to subject Phs to the pressures of trying to age a cat to the year which I do not believe one can.

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:
Interesting thoughts gentlemen. I'd be interested to hear from Mike Fell, Mike Angelides, and Adam Clements on their experiences.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Conservation Force:
Aaron,

I am glad to see you have softened on the 6-year approach but it is too late. You may remember I did my best to stop DSC from adopting a 6-year minimum with no dependent cubs. Let me bring you up-to-date. Panthera and other lion specialist have gone to 7 years or older minimum. The purpose is to reduce the number of four and five-year-old lion taken by mistake. They are together on this!

Second, a WildCRU study cited by FWS in its Final Rule listing the lion as threatened reports that cubs are dependent until 4 years old. Not a single male lion 4 years old or less pushed out of a pride in a take over survived! They are not dependent until reaching twice the age(2) that the Whitman model relied upon by Craig Packer.

Further, the scientific cat community wants to avoid repeating the problems encountered with telling the difference between 5 and 6-year-old lion. They are starting with a minimum age of 7 for leopard. Seven-year minimum is the proposal for leopard in RSA at this time. Zambia was considering 7 for leopard but I am unsure where it has ended up.

Thanks,

John

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Additionally why 7 as leopards are very common in a good part of their range.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Conservation Force:
Aaron,

I am glad to see you have softened on the 6-year approach but it is too late. You may remember I did my best to stop DSC from adopting a 6-year minimum with no dependent cubs. Let me bring you up-to-date. Panthera and other lion specialist have gone to 7 years or older minimum. The purpose is to reduce the number of four and five-year-old lion taken by mistake. They are together on this!

Second, a WildCRU study cited by FWS in its Final Rule listing the lion as threatened reports that cubs are dependent until 4 years old. Not a single male lion 4 years old or less pushed out of a pride in a take over survived! They are not dependent until reaching twice the age(2) that the Whitman model relied upon by Craig Packer.

Further, the scientific cat community wants to avoid repeating the problems encountered with telling the difference between 5 and 6-year-old lion. They are starting with a minimum age of 7 for leopard. Seven-year minimum is the proposal for leopard in RSA at this time. Zambia was considering 7 for leopard but I am unsure where it has ended up.

Thanks,

John

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I too, am not sure what the point of the OP is? Is it to reduce the age limit from 6 to 5?

Let me remind everyone that the science behind the issue opted for age 6 for 2 main reasons:
1- To err on the side of caution
2- to allow a male lion who claimed a pride to be able to raise at least 2 sets of offspring to adulthood;

And these were key in ensuring long term population sustainability of lion in any particular area!

I too agree with Andrew's overview. We are seeing regularly 6+ year old lion in our areas in Tz.

I believe that a lot of us are expecting an average hunting block to end up with dozens of 6+ male lions roaming around due to over-estimating the lion populations in these areas. An average block of approx 1000sqkm of good lion country (right habitat, good prey base and adequate protection) won't hold more than 5-6 resident and transient lion prides and a block with average lion country probably 3-4. So how many old lion does one expect to get with these numbers? Probably not more than 2-3 at any one time. That ain't easy to find in 1000sqkm of bush with less than 400sqkm of hunting tracks on average....

An old male that has been ousted from a pride will shy away and live out the rest of its life in the least hospitable part of the area as the pride male will have first choice of prime range lands, which is where most PHs focus their hunt in. Old, lone males become elusive to the extreme, but they are there even if for not very long.

These remain the best target lion for sustainable lion hunting.

If you guys are regularly seeing 6+ yr old lions, then your success should be at or near 100% correct? That would only make sense if you are seeing them regularly in your hunting blocks.

Why then did a client recently go home without one when he was on a 21 day hunt in Maswa? They saw plenty of big male lions for sure, as I saw all the pics of them, but yet they only killed 1 lion, the other guy did not - because they could not find another 6 yr old male. I saw pics of at least 6 different big / mature males just from that hunt alone, and supposedly none of them were 6.

The last time my friend hunted the EXACT same block of yours a couple of years ago - their experience was the exact same. Lots of big / mature / big maned males - but none of them were 6? How many old lions does an area hold, I don't know? But I know that if they were living to be 6, you guys would see more of them in this area, or does only 4 - 5 yr old males live in your Maswa block? When they turn 6 they aren't allowed there anymore? So each year hunters are seeing numerous 4-5 yr old lions in this area, but rarely a 6 yr old, if the see one at all. Why Bwana, why? Either your block doesn't allow 6 yr old lions to enter, you guys are mis-informing the hunters about the age of the lion (which I seriously doubt is the case) or they are dying before they reach the age of 6??? There is no other rational explanation Bwana!

By now Tanzania's lion hunting success would be going up steadily, as the law has been in place plenty long enough to see the effects working - but its not?

The OP's point is simple - I think the overall effect the 6 yr old rule/law is having on the industry and eventually the lion itself is NOT good, period!!! We all know a lot less lion hunts are being sold (the big ticket item, and the big money generator) partly because guys don't want to pay $100k and be told every lion they see, they can't shoot!!! Less money in the industry, means less protection of hunting blocks, which means less game / lions. A fact being played out in Tanzania already!

The person above saying I'm frustrated at lack of lion sightings / availability / success is dead wrong, I've been perfectly satisfied with my lion hunting experiences and have done very well in fact. I never understand why people make assumptions all the time, especially about others thinking / motives???? My concern is for the lion's longevity, and I don't think a hard / fast 6 yr law is helping anyone, including the lion.

Agree with me or not, that's fine.....I just think it should be reconsidered. Just one man's opinion!!!

quote:

Why then did a client recently go home without one when he was on a 21 day hunt in Maswa? They saw plenty of big male lions for sure, as I saw all the pics of them, but yet they only killed 1 lion, the other guy did not - because they could not find another 6 yr old male. I saw pics of at least 6 different big / mature males just from that hunt alone, and supposedly none of them were 6.

quote:

The last time my friend hunted the EXACT same block of yours a couple of years ago - their experience was the exact same. Lots of big / mature / big maned males - but none of them were 6? How many old lions does an area hold, I don't know? But I know that if they were living to be 6, you guys would see more of them in this area, or does only 4 - 5 yr old males live in your Maswa block? When they turn 6 they aren't allowed there anymore? So each year hunters are seeing numerous 4-5 yr old lions in this area, but rarely a 6 yr old, if the see one at all. Why Bwana, why? Either your block doesn't allow 6 yr old lions to enter, you guys are mis-informing the hunters about the age of the lion (which I seriously doubt is the case) or they are dying before they reach the age of 6??? There is no other rational explanation Bwana!

quote:

By now Tanzania's lion hunting success would be going up steadily, as the law has been in place plenty long enough to see the effects working - but its not?

quote:

The OP's point is simple - I think the overall effect the 6 yr old rule/law is having on the industry and eventually the lion itself is NOT good, period!!! We all know a lot less lion hunts are being sold (the big ticket item, and the big money generator) partly because guys don't want to pay $100k and be told every lion they see, they can't shoot!!! Less money in the industry, means less protection of hunting blocks, which means less game / lions. A fact being played out in Tanzania already!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Seven years is the lion model the Du Plooys have instituted in their area on the Luangwa and they've taken some monsters of late.
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Peter,

You are correct about the quota. Du Plooy hunts their GMA Chifunda and PH's for Impanga on the Chanjuzi GMA next door. The lions that I've seen that they've taken since hunting reopened have all been brutes. These areas have lots of resident lions and are directly across the river from the North Luangwa Park. That couple with the reduced quota makes it much easier for them to be selective and only shoot the old lions.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It would have helped if many PHs would quit claiming they could age a Lion in the wild. that's like aging a mustang, depends on the geographical locations, abundance of food and a host of other things..Everytime I go to the doctors office I see folks that look older than me, lots of them and they are 60 years old!!

The only real way to be accurate on judging an animals age is his teeth and that's not particularly accurate, not even in cattle and horses, but many claim they can...A horse raised on soft food and one the same age raised on harsh grass will certainly age different..

They need to change the method on Lions, come up with a viable alternative..I agree that the old lions need to taken out, how they do it is up to the management team, but their record as of today just ain't all that sharp.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It would have helped if many PHs would quit claiming they could age a Lion in the wild. that's like aging a mustang, depends on the geographical locations, abundance of food and a host of other things..Everytime I go to the doctors office I see folks that look older than me, lots of them and they are 60 years old!!

The only real way to be accurate on judging an animals age is his teeth and that's not particularly accurate, not even in cattle and horses, but many claim they can...A horse raised on soft food and one the same age raised on harsh grass will certainly age different..

They need to change the method on Lions, come up with a viable alternative..I agree that the old lions need to taken out, how they do it is up to the management team, but their record as of today just ain't all that sharp.

I disagree Ray and we spend all our lives with these creatures and have learnt to judge age and what we consider to be trophy specimens.

The ones you cannot judge or requires a second look should be left alone.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
As an average Joe client if the outfitter laid out the checklist for a shoot able lion, I would not book the hunt.

Plunking down 10s of thousands of dollars were your chances of getting a lion are almost nil, only someone with money to burn, who likes a long shot would book IMO.

If nobody books the hunts, then all the expert theories on harvesting on lions on their death beds is a moot point.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
As an average Joe client if the outfitter laid out the checklist for a shoot able lion, I would not book the hunt.

Plunking down 10s of thousands of dollars were your chances of getting a lion are almost nil, only someone with money to burn, who likes a long shot would book IMO.

If nobody books the hunts, then all the expert theories on harvesting on lions on their death beds is a moot point.

BH63

Outfitter's need to adjust their pricing to a regular hunt and charge a "lion premium" fee on success.