I thought Gordon also used a 458 lott: I am going hunting with him the first of Sept and wanted to shoot his lott to check out the recoil. I am bringing my 375 and 30-06

If Gordon has a 458 Lott, it's a recent acquisition. Personally, I don't see him switching from 375.

Last Nov Glenn was planning on having his 458 win rechambered to lott.

My hunting partner left him all of his lott ammo. Glenn may have had his rechambered.

But Gordo with a lott...? I say no way. Ganyana knows he would never give up "the guitar."

quote:

As Will pointed out, Ian Gibson does use a 458 Win Mag. It is an older M70 Push Feed model. The finish on the wood is gone as is all of the blue. It looks like a stainless steel barreled action in a 2x4. However, that rifle is absolutely deadly in his hands.

I'd love to see a pic of an old warhorse like that... Interesting how efficient that rifle is in the hands of someone who's used it for years and knows it intimately.

quote:

Originally posted by 458RugerNo1:

quote:

As Will pointed out, Ian Gibson does use a 458 Win Mag. It is an older M70 Push Feed model. The finish on the wood is gone as is all of the blue. It looks like a stainless steel barreled action in a 2x4. However, that rifle is absolutely deadly in his hands.

I'd love to see a pic of an old warhorse like that... Interesting how efficient that rifle is in the hands of someone who's used it for years and knows it intimately.

458RugerNo1,

Here's another "old" PH (Andrew "Stretch" Ferrera) with his pushfeed M70:


It seems to me that a lot of the older guys still have these rifles, and also apparently have never had any problems with them being pushfeed.

Wow that was fast, thanks Erik...

Rolf Rohwer uses a 458 Win. Mag. in a Remington 700 given to him by Warren Page.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Professional hunting is changing, and backing up clients is becomming more common - hense the shift to bigger bore's with as ozhunter noted a preference for something smaller when hunting alone.

I have known only two nen use a heavy rifle for general purpose hunting. Glen Tathan (ex chief warden, zim parks and Ken Worsley, ex culling team leader.) Both use an F.N .458 Win for everything.

My old friend and hunting companion, Brian Marsh, who was one of the three pioneers of game ranching and first PH in Zim started off with a .404, moved to a H&H .465 double, then to a .450 Watts (.458 Lott) in the late 60's and then finally settled on a .375...

The two best charges I have seen stopped in recent years - an ele at 2 paces and a buff at 3 were both stopped by Gordon Duncan with his .375. Like his uncle- Clive Stockhill, he only uses a .375.

For stopping an ele, penetration and shot placeement beat power every time- look at Mike La Grange (ballistics in perspective) Art Alphin designed the 460 Short just for mike, but I never saw him shoot any animal with anything other than his 30-06 ( Used a Garand- A Square made him thousands of mono's for the culls in 30-06. There were still 11,000 in stock last time I looked!)

For buffalo- bigger is better.

It also depends on the terrain you hunt in.

And shit happens, too. When it does, there is no such thing as too much gun, and a 9.3 ain't it!

quote:

Originally posted by Virginia Creeper:
Rolf Rohwer uses a 458 Win. Mag. in a Remington 700 given to him by Warren Page.

And sues Federal Ammunition when he doesn't shoot straight and is mauled by a lion, proving yet again that a poor workman blames his tools.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
And sues Federal Ammunition when he doesn't shoot straight and is mauled by a lion, proving yet again that a poor workman blames his tools.

ABSOLUTELY! Spill hot coffee in your lap and sue the guy who cooked it!

- Mark Selby uses a .416 rigby by rigby and has for over a decade.
- Tony moore uses a WR bolt rifle converted from .425 to .458 and has a watson .500 DR as his spare rifle. Both Beautiful guns
- Douglas McNeil used a Jeffereys .500 NE DR until it got run over by a truck and is now using a .450 Dakota with a spare 577 Jefferey.
- Michel Mantheakis uses a 450 Dakota
- Franz Coupe has been using a .375 in recent years
- Andy Wilkinson uses a 404 J

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

- Douglas McNeil used a Jeffereys .500 NE DR until it got run over by a truck and is now using a .450 Dakota with a spare 577 Jefferey.

OUCH! I guess at least he has a spare.

And shit happens, too. When it does, there is no such thing as too much gun, and a 9.3 ain't it! [/QUOTE]

Fortunately for charging elephant most things are big enough, and as Buzz says, one day you will shoot enough to learn...

The most bulls I have seen shot in one go, excluding culls, is 17. Shot in an orchard, three were taken with through-the-shoulder-into the-brain shot as they were running off, and two charges were stopped and the animals cleanly taken. 18 rounds of 8mm Muaser ammo expended by the farmer.

A wounded, running away animal takes a lot more horsepower to solve than one charging you. One charging past you to squash a client off to the side or running away is also a situation where power is important. In both cases you are trying to hit a moving target which is at an awkward angle- and if the animal is running away, you are trying to score that fatal hit at ranges far beyond what one would consider ethical to initialy engage at.

Look at the list of rifles the younger generation of PH's are carrying- most are the higher velocity options- very useful for those long shots ( my pet hate- gut shot Girrafe disapearing over the skyline!) Many of the older PH's are (were) only concerned with a direct attack- animal running off was the clients problem. It is now six years since I fired a shot to back up a client- bar one girrafe ( and only then because it was the last day of the safari and I didn't have the normal 3 days to spend looking for it). Given that philosophy, I do not need a hard hitting rifle- also, having used the caliber on the buff eradication culls, shooting local "running boar" competition etc, I have a good idea of trajectory and leed required for longer range shots. Confidence beats caliber every time!

Ganyana,

I knew somehwere in that long and circuitous diatribe you would again justify that pip-squeak 9.3.

If that story about the 17 ele's is only half true, that farmer is one hell of a shot and then some.

Your experiences with the 9.3 are probably not dissimilar to the lengends of the 7x57, the 375, and the 416. All have high relative penetration. In addtion to placement, one needs penetration, and size doesn't hurt. (no puns intended).

If one was confident that one could hit the brain from every angle under every circumstance, yea, maybe a 9.3 or even a 7x57. But how many guys, that are still alive, could claim that? Even Richard used a 458.

My little 416 Taylor so far has gotter done! And it is little enough for me.

G,

I'll give you one thing on the 9.3, those skinny cartridges are a lot easier to load into the magazine in a hurry than the fat magnum cases.

Ganyana,

I wonder how many M-1 Garands Mike LaGrange wore out shooting those 220 grain monometals in it!

I bet the buffalo learned to run like hell when they heard that metallic "ping" when the 8-round clip ejected!

What does a buff (or elephant) do when he or she is hit with a 220 grain monometal?

Was he shooting for heart or head?

Andy

PS The Garand has a 1-10 twist and should have stabilized those heavy bullets OK.

Nassos Roussos is partial to a .458 Lott Dakota 76 but for a long time used a Brown Precision PH in .458 Lott that weighs 7 1/2 lbs. Yes, it's brutal. I split the forent twice in the sighting in process. Seems it never bothered him though as he carried it a lot (no pun intended..didn't know how else to say it) but only shot it when he needed to. And then he REALLY needed to! As we no longer hunt elephant these rfiles see most of their use on Nile Buffalo backup. Jason Roussos is curently using a Ruger M77 in .416 Rigby plus a 12 ga. Mag. Benelli with #000 for leopard in a pinch. No, he hasn't needed it yet! He also uses the .416 Rigby for Nile Croc's if they so much as twich after the client shoots. If they get into the water they are gone.....
Rich Elliott

Gavin Rorke has used either a 500 A Square or 500 NE Rigby when hunting with him in the past.
I know George Parkin used a 416 rem and Rory Muil a 505 or 458 Win.

BigB

Thanks Rich,

I have been interested in Nassos and his operation for some years.

If I was asked
'Which living PH and African would you most like to have lunch with' (or even better, go hunt with!), Nassos would be right near the top. He seems liie a real scholar of Africa, its environemnt and people (Ethiopia) and extends himslef in this direction...?

kayaker,

I've had many lunches (and dinners) with Nassos and look forward to many more. Looking back I can say that he's influenced my life more than anyone except my father. Trouble is he ruined me for anyplace but Ethiopia!
Rich Elliott

Here are the results as of this date.

Total PHs reported 94
Total number of rifles used 104
(some use more than one DG rifle)

Doubles 31 (33%)
Bolts 63 (67%)

Double rifle calibers

450/400 2
465 1
470 19
475 No2 1
500 8

Bolt rifles
9.3X62 1
404J 2
416 Rigby 14
416 Rem 4
458 win 12
460 Weath. 4
458 Lott 11
458 watts, Ack etc. 2
500 Jeff 3
505 gibbs 3
375 H&H 6
500 A2 1

465H&H

Thanks for the very interesting and enlightening compilation.

I think you missed just one!

"Michel Mantheakis uses a 450 Dakota."

Unless you counted this as a 460 weatherby?

Interesting that the Rigby, .458 Win mag, Lott, and 470 are all about equal number.

Andy

Will The old farmer was Trevor Heath- Believe you know his son. Also had a magnificent 52" buff he took with that 8mm and a 120lb elephant taken somewhere in Somalia in 1940 with a .303. The big tusks and the buffalo skull were destroyed in the house when the war vets torched it in 2000.

Andy - Culling elephant is nothing at all like hunting them. The cull team leader shoots the maitriach then wipes out the cows and calves as they gather round her. The team flankers try and take out all the bulls as they bombshell when the maitriach goes down. For the team leader, brain shots only are acceptable and speed is vital.

For the (usually two) flankers, your targets are several running bull elephant. If you pull off brain shots, so much the better, but a good heart shot works fine - just lacks finesse and "marked" a man as a beginner on the culls.

Clem Coetsee favoured a soviet Draganov snipers rifle- sans scope and fireing AP rounds. ( semi Auto, 10 rnd mags.) Mike Liked the garand- a couple- Like Ken worsley used a relay of .458's loaded by a couple of game scouts. Tim Paulett and a few others liked the standard F.N. FAL in .308 - but they always used something bigger to take out the matriach the biggest cows.

My participation in he ele culls was watching and then dissecting the carcases to determin age, number of young per cow etc.

The buffalo culls were a whole different ballgame. The buff were driven onto us by helicopter. They were running straight at you, but not actually charging. The main idea was to wipe the herd out before you were over run, since they wouldn't break when the shooting started but just kept running wildly forward.

I never saw mike on a buff cull- they were organised mainly by the vet department - to whom I was seconded at the time. I started out with a .458, moved to a .375, and finally settled on a 9,3. Steve Edwards ( the one from vet department as oposed to the Steve Edwards from Parks) has probably shot more buff than anybody in the last 40 years- c10,000. He mainly used an F.N. FAL, and then switched to a .458 for following up the wounded that got out of the killing zone.

Being parks and only seconded to vet dep, I couldn't get an F.N. at the time ( parks were maily issued with G3 rifles except the more senior officers who had S.L.R.'s). My G3 was an abomination before the Lord and I switched to a lee enfield for anti gook protection and a heavy rifle for buff, and finally just carried the 9,3 for buff, rabid jackal and gooks ( which is all that were on open license).

Several officers liked the .308 for the culls but by far the most popular choice was either the .404's or remaining .425's. Both rifles and ammo were in short supply so new kids on the block got .458's

Subsiquently, I have used my F.N. ( when I finally scrounged one) for both buff and elephant. Military ball lacked both penetration and straight line performance on a bull ele and I was lucky to get a good heart shot in. Have stopped two buff charges with my F.N. A double tap at 10 yards sure puts them down if you hit the spine- which is why the men on the culls liked them - precise shot placement covers up many shortcomings.

That said, I was one of the line in a buff cull where we got over run. The herd was too big, the team in the helicopter were ment to pick off the bulls so that we only faced cows ( which are easier to put down). Too many bulls and a .458 bounced off a buff's boss and fatally wounded one of the lads in the helicopter. Helio pulled out at a critical moment and 70+ buff ran down on 8 of us. We got 51 - but only 42 fell in the kill zone- and the rest came over our possition, with one man getting flattened quite well. Fire disipline had gone to hell when some of the men saw the size of the herd and the helio pulling out. I was very happy with my 9,3 that day. Everything in front of me went down and the neaarest buff went past a good couple of yards away.

That settles it, per the other post, I want to have my lunch with Ganyana.

Of course, that means I'm buying!

Gheez, Ganyana. That story is a chapter of a book all by itself!

Ganyana
Are there any opportunities for visiting sportsmen to participate in culls like that or are those days gone forever?



You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go Now.

It really all boils down to picking an adequate caliber then getting real good with it.

I see these comment about accuracy beats caliber any day and a PH is most happy if you show up with a weather beaten .375. Blah blah blah.

Accuracy is key but that doesn't mean you can't be accurate with a large bore rifle. It's all about practice and confidence with your rifle. If you can't handle a rifle due to weight and recoil you need to be honest with yourself and get something easier for you to shoot. If you can handle it then by all means shoot it.

There is nobody chatting on the internet who can tell you what rifle you can handle with out having shot with you, though many often try to do so. It's really quite ridiculous when you think about it.

Ganyana,

Thank you for sharing that!

You made us all feel like we were there.

Next time you get run over by a buffalo herd, you should try a real big bore (115 mm)!



Except the Milan is a single shooter, so your probably be better off with your trusty old 9.3 x 62 mm!

Thanks for sharing.

Andy

Geoff Broom is using a .450 Dakota.
BTW, I just returned from a elephant hunt, with the hunter using a .600 NE, and his two "backups" using a .577NE and a .500NE respectively, and can just comment that shotplacement is still the most important, and IMO all the horsepower of these bigger bores were actually waisted, mostly into the rocks...

quote:

BTW, I just returned from a elephant hunt, with the hunter using a .600 NE, and his two "backups" using a .577NE and a .500NE respectively,

Do you know the make of DRs these individuals were using?

Andy- occasionally had a hankering for a nice .50 BMG or better still a DSkh 12.7!- And bugger a barret with a 10 rnd box - I want a 100rnd belt!

quote:

Do you know the make of DRs these individuals were using?

577, the bigger bores where both Zanardini doubles, and the .500 was a Merkel. nothing wrong with the guns or the calibers, just plain bad shooting. One guy tried my .450 Rigby afterwards, as he now consider it to have one build for him, and missed the mark by at least 5 feet @ 40 yards (offhand.)

For those interested, I have asked nickudu to post part of a chapter out of Ganyana's book that deals with the buffalo culls on the "AH" forum.

NB. The article is long, unedited and photo's not yet added. Also, several of the incidents alluded to have appeared in print (in Magnum, African Hunter or Sporting Gazzette) and need to be in the book to make it complete- so what you read here will probably be quite different to the final product. Still...

Most of the book is about politics of wildlife and the Rhino war rather than hunting, but I thought, considering the discussion, that this chunk was relevant.

I found this thread interezting enough that I pulled out Boddington's book "Safari Rifles" to compare what he learned about DG rifles used by the pros compared to what has been reported in this thread. The sampling method is different so a direct comparison may not be accurate but perhaps the trends will be found interesting. His data was published in 1990 and I would he collected a year or two earlier. So we are dealing with 16 to 18 years between surveys. For the purposes of this comparison I assumed that all doubles and only doubles were nitro express calibers.

Reults of this thread Boddington's data

Tot rifles (respondents)

105 (94) 146 (113)

# of rifles per PH

1.12 1.29


Doubles (%) Bolts (%)

31 (29.8) 63 (60.6) 27 (18.5) 19 (81.5)

Caliber Number (%)

458 Win 12 (11.5) 48 (32.9)
375 H&H 6 (5.8) 22 (22.6)
416 Rigby 14 (13.5) 18 (12.4)
470 Nitro 19 (18.3) 15 (10.3)
460 Weath. 4 (3.8) 3 (2.o)
450 Nitro 0 3 (2.0)
416 Rem/Hoff 4 (3.8) 3 (2.0)
404 Jeff 2 (1.9) 3 (2.0)
450 Ack/Wats 2 (1.9) 5 (3.4)
475 No2 1 (1.0) 3 (2.0)
500 Nitro 8 (7.7) 3 (2.0)
500 Jeff 3 (2.0) 2 (1.4)
458 Lott 11 (10.6) 2 (1.4)
465 Nitro 1 (1.0) 2 (1.4)
510 Wells 0 2 (1.4)
577 Nitro 0 1 (<1)
450/400 Nitro 2 (1.9) 0
505 Gibbs 3 (2.0) 0
9.3x62 1 (1.0) 0
500 A2 1 (1.0) 0

It appears that there are some trends shown. The 458 Win and 375 H&H are losing poularity and double rifles are seeing increasing use among the pros.

465H&H

465: I'm willing to be the trend towards the older, traditional calibers continues to rise. And I expect the Lott to show a much stronger following as well. jorge

jorge1

I wouldn't take that bet!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
For those interested, I have asked nickudu to post part of a chapter out of Ganyana's book that deals with the buffalo culls on the "AH" forum.

NB. The article is long, unedited and photo's not yet added. Also, several of the incidents alluded to have appeared in print (in Magnum, African Hunter or Sporting Gazzette) and need to be in the book to make it complete- so what you read here will probably be quite different to the final product. Still...

Most of the book is about politics of wildlife and the Rhino war rather than hunting, but I thought, considering the discussion, that this chunk was relevant.

The Hunted Game

Karl,

Can you tell us if your hunter with the three double rifles flew into camp, or drove being a SA or Namibian citizen?

I dont see how he could have carried enough ammo for three heavies with a 5 kg ammo allowance on an international flight?

I barely got 60 rounds of 450 Dakota on board.

You PH's do earn your money!

Andy

Hi Andy
Maybe I should explain my statements better in future. The main hunter had two doubles, both Zanardini's (a 500 Jeffrey caliber- first time I saw it), and a 600NE. He only used the 600. He had about 30 rounds of 600NE, and I dont think more than 10 for the 500 Jeff. The second hunter, (his brother), had the 577NE Zanardini (also about 30 rounds), and their agent, who did not hunt, but wanted to back up everything, used a 500NE Merkel (30 rounds). They flew in with a Squirrel helicopter, from Johannesburg international, to the camp on Lake Kariba. Definately "foreigners", not Zim/ Namibian/ SA guys, or any other African country.

quote:

Professional hunting is changing, and backing up clients is becomming more common - hense the shift to bigger bore's

Ganyana Why do you think backing up clients is becoming more common.
Dr B