Last time I've been to Zim was a decade ago on business, but our company had since closed down that activity.
A month ago I took my wife and daughter to the Vic falls for a few leisurely days. The hotels were rather empty, but in tip-top maintenance and well run. Not expensive either – that is if you pay in Rands or US$. South African hospitality industry can take a sitting down lecture from those people.
We did just about as much as can be done in 3 days and I bought DVDs of the white water rafting and abseiling and bungi swing and other silly stuffs I did. (Wife: "When will you ever grow up?" ) They made an error on one of those DVDs, which I only discovered once we were at home. I sent an e-mail and had prompt response - an apology and the fault rectified - no arguments.
Wherever we went, people smiled and waved, though I realise it is a holiday town.
The tourism potential of Zim is huge (not to mention agriculture and raw materials). If that country were to recover, I think I could live there.
So sad Bob won’t go.
Lochi.

Lochi

Hey man, HowsIt? (I hunted with you in Feb 05).

Uhhhhh...I keep coming back to RSA but we never hook up. Finally got Katya to Africa: https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/460105415

What is your take on not hunting Zim because of all the crap they pulled with the white farmers. I am against it in principle, but I am interested in your opinion.

Thanks

404WJJeffrey,

You asked my friend Lochi for his opinion about boycotting Zimbabwe. I will be glad to voice my opinion here.

A few months ago I sent a heads up message to some prospective clients informing them that I am in a good position to offer very affordable DG hunting in Zimbabwe. One of the recipients of my message, who shall remain unnamed, replied as follows:

“I thank you for emailing me this note. However, not only would I not go into Zimbabwe myself, I would not send a client there as well.

I believe it is morally and ethically objectionable to contribute one thin dime to this, the most corrupt of all the African countries. When will hunters learn that there is more to hunting than killing trophy critters? There is an ethical and moral side to hunting as well. To further aid a corrupt and despotic regime just so one can enjoy a hunting opportunity does not speak well for those that so participate.

And while I can feel badly for those whose hunting businesses are tied to Zimbabwe, the writing was on the wall years ago. If Zimbabwe had been properly boycotted years ago, perhaps changes would have ensued that would have benefited not only the few who continue to support Mugabe by filling his coffers, but made the country itself a better place for its citizens and for the hundreds, if not thousands, who were forced out by this regime.

<snip & change to: Unnamed from USA>â€

Here is the response that I’ve sent him in return. So this is essentially my opinion on the matter.

“Unnamed,

Thanks for the very thought provoking message. Thanks also for the mature way in which you have expressed your opinion on the matter. I hope that I can in similar spirit at least express my opinion in an adolescent way, and convey some of my thoughts on this serious subject accurately. The one thing that I do not want to do in this reply is to simply justify my involvement in Zimbabwe. I only want to offer another perspective on the situation. NOT claiming mine to be "the right" perspective: Mine is just another one! There are some more views on the matter, and I, as a hunter and not politician, can only speak what I feel.

I quite agree that it is morally and ethically wrong to contribute in any way to support and maintain a corrupt government. You will also agree that in most countries the people get the Government that they deserve? After all, their Government were voted into power by them, the people? The majority rules, barring a bit of election fraud here and there! Now very few people removed from the situation understand quite how popular Robert Mugabe is in his own country! It was only on my recent visit that the popularity of the man amongst the masses struck me. Before my most recent visit there I thought that many people will be against Mugabe for the wrongs that he has done. Not so! He is the one that gave to the majority exactly what they wanted: Freedom from white rule. Free farms - illegally taken without compensation from the hated white colonialists. Bob was placed in power basically by the threat of sanctions by the USA against South Africa. Lang Hendrik van der Berg and his cronies "sold out" Rhodesia to the USA Government for short term popularity. But this is history, a subject that I know very little about. Take it from me: Bob Mugabe was placed in power by none other than the USA government of the day! Without very strong pressure from the USA at the time after UDI Ian Smith would still have been in power, or at least his democratically elected successor.

Please don't blame me for any misunderstanding of the politics of many years ago: I say only what I honestly feel: It was only due the pressure from USA that Robert Mugabe gained power! Naturally the South African Government, the CIA, the British government and others contributed to pressure also, but IMHO the pressure from the USA clinched the deal for Mugabe.

Now I quite agree with you that his whole regime is corrupt and despotic. And he should be removed from office - indeed from the face of the earth - as soon as possible. But in his own country he is THE HERO who gave the people exactly what they wanted. It is true that most people, even ZANU PF comrades, suffer from the economic chaos in the country. It is also true that many go hungry due to Bob's policies. But Bob remains the hero, as he blames all the woes on Blair Bush and others! And, important, he controls the press and TV.

I agree that there is an ethical and moral side to hunting and that hunting is more than killing trophy animals. You imply that by enjoying a hunting opportunity in Zimbabwe today would constitute in "aid" to the regime. Of course this is also true. To deny it would be foolish!

The question I ask is: What else do I support by getting involved in Zimbabwe? The first answer to this is: I support Andrew McLaren, from whom much was taken by the "new" RSA government. This ANC government cannot quite yet be described as a “regimeâ€, but they are hard at work, and give them time…… .But let me not dwell on this painful subject too much.

What else do I support? Does my involvement in legal hunting in Zimbabwe help to support a viable hunting industry? A hunting industry that can, if kept alive until some later post Mugabe time, be the mainstay of a thriving tourism/hunting industry in the "new" Zimbabwe. Does my involvement in Zimbabwe help to support the maintenance of law and order, at least in the hunting industry? If all Americans and all hunters suddenly started to boycott Zimbabwe, would the currently existing law and order in the hunting industry not just fall apart and give way to rampant poaching and the elimination of a potential huge source of revenue for the new post Mugabe government? I really think so. Note I use the word "think", as no one can really know what will happen. In the rural remoter areas, where much of the legal hunting happens, how much of the daily food, or better make that protein, intake of the average citizen comes from legally hunted trophy animals? If legal hunting stops, due to all like myself starting to boycott Zimbabwe, how do you think the rural people are going to supplement the loss of this essential protein in their diet? You must remember that if such an effective boycott of the hunting industry is in place, then a lot of income with which they now buy other foods will be withheld from these rural people. Will they perhaps resort to illegal poaching in order to stay alive?

Bill, I do respect your views, and hope that I’ve not come across here as trying to change your views. I simply want to express my view on the subject. That the long-term best interests of the country would be well served by a removal of Robert Mugabe and his clan of strong-arm thugs from power as soon as possible is not doubted at all. Would my continued involvement in the Zimbabwe hunting industry aid this noble goal? No, it would not! But I think that the hunting and wildlife tourist industry in a “post Mugabe†time will be better off if hunters like myself keep on hunting legally in Zimbabwe now. So, in the longer term interest of wildlife and the people of Zimbabwe I intend to continue to become involved in the legal hunting industry in Zimbabwe. I do regret that some of the money paid for trophy fees, and particularly to export a trophy, does help to support Mugabe. But IMHO the good that is done by continued legal hunting far outweighs the bad of some unintended support for Mugabe. It is with some pity that I admit that I don’t quite know what the so-called “Lacey Act†is, but given my understanding of what it wants to achieve I support it. The illegal hunting on concessions where the land was illegally robbed from the owners by a regime brought into power by the USA government should be stopped as soon as possible.

In the preceding paragraph the big difference between legal and illegal hunting should be better emphasized. One I believe should be supported. The other should be totally boycotted and brought to an end as soon as possible. I have made my choice and, even though unhappy that through my actions there is indeed some support for the regime, I feel that the long term benefit to the country and it’s people of my way far outweighs the negative of some support to Mugabe.

I beg of you to not equate my spelling out of my views on this subject as a rejection of your views. I accept and respect your views, even though different from mine!

I remain hopeful that I can convince you and some of your friends to visit South Africa as hunters and enjoy the experience of African hunting here in South Africa - while the Government has not yet degraded into a regime!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLarenâ€

I can add to that now, but will start the ball rolling with what was said about two months ago.

Andrew McLaren.

Zimbabwe's Problems are fault of US of A?? No, quite the contrary, the problems are simply brought about by the local citizens/naitives not having the first clue as to how to opeate a society other than tribal. The future of Zimbabwe is quite simply that there is no future, period. America did not bring about the election, appointment, etc. of any leader in Zim and frankly in the time period you refer to had little if any real concern about Zimbabwe. We have less, if any now.
It is always humurous to hear and read from those not having any knowledge as to how the CIA did this or did that. Truth of the matter, you do not and will not know what the CIA does or did.
Friends just returned from Zimbabwe and did so with my warning of the conditions and I can assure you they will not be back, ever. There for 10 miserable days, and on the third day went to no small effort to get the hell out, but found that impossible.
The much worn out approach of blaming America, CIA, Blair, etc. on a nation's problems just does not work anymore friend, and those attempting such claims need to throw some very bright light into very dark corners of their own nation/people/politics/ etc. Those in SA need to be very aware of the leftist, communistic attitudes taken by your own nation and hopefully in a few years you will not have to deal with unbearable conditions

quote:

I think I could live there.

Too true Lochi!!

I dream of owning a small piece of property in Vic Falls (or Livingston) where I can spend time each year with mates. Its paradise, wildlife, best river in the world, tigerfish on fly, chilled, fun place.....

quote:

Originally posted by driver:

Friends just returned from Zimbabwe and did so with my warning of the conditions and I can assure you they will not be back, ever. There for 10 miserable days, and on the third day went to no small effort to get the hell out, but found that impossible.

Would you care to fill us in on why they were so miserable?

Yes, it's a year since I was in Zim last, but as far as I know things haven't changed very much. And I had a fantastic time, just like I've had in every single African country I've been in. Many far worse off than Zim... I wouldn't invest in Zim myself, but besides that, I find the people and country in general to be great (obviously besides M and his cronies), and certainly safer for tourists than many other African countries.

I'd gladly return both to hunt, travel and see friends there again, either alone or with my family, with no hesitations.

Not to mention that the white population that remains there needs all the support and business we can give them!

So your post confuses me.

(EDITED for some wierd spelling mistakes!)

I don't always agree with ErikD, but this time I certainly do. I was there in March and felt comfortable the entire time I was there. Every time I came into contact with gov't officials, i.e., road checks, customs, etc., they were friendly and never gave us a hard time.

Several years ago, I had a bad time in Zimbabwe and left early, but that had to do with my misfortune in choosing a safari company whose principal had died immediately before my arrival (and the vultures were already feeding).

Any investment in Zim would be a great, great risk, but the rewards could make it worthwhile. Absent Bob and his henchmen, the potential of the country is unlimited. I just hope some of the guys/gals in the Whenwe ditty (black and white) live long ehough to see their country back in the civilized world.

I've been to about 20 different countries in the last 25 years and I can honestly say that I have found nice people in every one of them. There are a few places within those countries where I, or the people that I was with were treated rudely but overall I've enjoyed the people in every place that I've visited (Even Pakistan when the car bombs were going off outside my hotel window).

I think that in the great majority of cases you receive the treatment that you go in expecting and that the majority of people generally treat you like you treat them.

Before I leave for another country I learn how to say "Hello", "Please" and "Thank you" in the predominant language. It's amazing how well people treat you when you use those three words even if they are the only three words that you know.

driver

quote:

Zimbabwe's Problems are fault of US of A??

You twist my words by saying that I blame the USA for the troubles in Zimbabwe. The troubles the have are the making of the majority of the people in Zimbabwe! Question is: Who helped the majority to get into power?

After stating that I do not know very much about politics - hell man at that time of UDI I was a student at varsity, and much more interested in girls than what goes on in the world - I said:

quote:

Take it from me: Bob Mugabe was placed in power by none other than the USA government of the day!

I can accept that this statement is not the full story, but I also said

quote:

Naturally the South African Government, the CIA, the British government and others contributed to pressure also, but IMHO the pressure from the USA clinched the deal for Mugabe.

Do you for one single moment think that the southern African [white] politicians of the day did not know the truth of your statement that

quote:

the problems are simply brought about by the local citizens/naitives not having the first clue as to how to opeate a society other than tribal.

?

Do you care to enlighten me, as one of those unfortunate souls who does not have any knowledge about the workings of the CIA, where I'm so wrong in the basic point that it was pressure from the western powers, including USA, that forced Ian Smith to capitulate, and so got Mugabe in power?

Do you further care to enlighten everyone as to on what facts/knowledge or whatever you based your warning to your friends? Please say also why they were so miserable? Could much of their misery stem from the truth in Fjolds statement that

quote:

I think that in the great majority of cases you receive the treatment that you go in expecting and that the majority of people generally treat you like you treat them.

?

I here fully agree with JudgeG, and kayaker and Lochi "the place has a great future, and I could live there"

IMHO it is basically up to the people in Zimbabwe to unlock their own great future. Until they do, they deserve the goverment they voted for, or the one they allowed to rigg election results.

In the meantime I will continue to support all LEGAL hunting and tourism there. I'm going there as hunter and tourist for the third time this year at the end of next month. I just love the country and the really friendly and helpful people, black and white, with whom I came into contact during my recent visits.

As a loyal South African I will say: Zimbabwe should be the second African country to consider going to!

Meantime I have some nice and affordable value-for-money hunting on offer, plains game here in South Africa and DG in Zimbabwe.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:

Unnamed,

Thanks for the very thought provoking message.

[and soon after]


"Bill, I do respect your views..."

And magically, the mysterious 'Unnamed' changes to 'Bill'.

You're not in charge of any sensitive national security materials, are you?

Doh!

Hey 404, didn't know that was you!
You have certainly moved up fast from first-timer-to-Africa into the ranks of what we call "the main manne". Good for you, and I am proud to have had the privilege to introduce you to the basics like blesbok, impala, springbok, warti .... at the time. And Katya looks as neat as ever before! (another compliment for you!)
Fjold, I agree with your practice of learning a few foreign words. Unfortunately most people from the English speaking countries couldn't bother. At some stage or another I could say the basics in Hebrew, Portuguese, Spanish, German, Swedish, Italian ..... and of course the local African languages. When I was wearing a young man's clothes, I could even say "I liebe dich" in selected linga opportune to the moment.
Lochi

Hello,
I will attempt to respond to both ErikD and Andrew McClaren
and say that if anyone is putting forth that Zimbabwe is a good place to visit, hunt, live, invest, operate, etc. then there is something really, really missing with your awareness factor of the real world. It is well known that the nation is in a terrible economic melt down, probably one of the greatest inflationary spirals in recent times, the so called president is a despot and quite capable of any act required to keep him and his fellows in power and for you or anyone to advocate that Zimbabwe is not all that bad, have good people, possible investment opportunities, is more than absurd, it is ludicrous.
Andrew, what else would anyone derive from your comments other than the US 0f A brought about all these troubles?? Would one derive that Brazil, Canada, France, etc. did it from your comments??? I think not and the definite accusation is toward the US and that old method of blame the other guy, not us or our neighbors just simply does not work anymore. The situation is in your sphere of influence, your part of the world, and it is incumbent for you and others in that area to deal with it and blaming others is a very poor excuse, if one at all.

Now, now, ErikD, let's not play slow of wit here, for if you read at all, listen to the world news, are enlightened to any degree, it is well known there is little if any petrol in country, inflation terrible, food stocks are absent, and graft and greed rampant as well as the health system is non existant and that surely is not confusing to you.
You were there a year ago, so were the people I refer to and have been a few times prior, but the conditions are much worse in all respects in all these areas mentioned. I plan on going to Africa to hunt in the near future myself, but to deny that Zimbabwe is in melt down, is again, not of the real world. We have all heard of the big bird unable to fly and upon the approach of danger, sticks it's head into the sand and would not advise that as a good plan. If you or others wish to visit Zimbabwe may God Bless you in your travels, but let's not imply, accuse the US of A of bringing about the troubles in Africa whether it be Zimbabwe or any other place. Sorry, that just does not work anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello,
I will attempt to respond to both ErikD and Andrew McClaren
and say that if anyone is putting forth that Zimbabwe is a good place to visit, hunt, live, invest, operate, etc. then there is something really, really missing with your awareness factor of the real world. It is well known that the nation is in a terrible economic melt down, probably one of the greatest inflationary spirals in recent times, the so called president is a despot and quite capable of any act required to keep him and his fellows in power and for you or anyone to advocate that Zimbabwe is not all that bad, have good people, possible investment opportunities, is more than absurd, it is ludicrous.
Andrew, what else would anyone derive from your comments other than the US 0f A brought about all these troubles?? Would one derive that Brazil, Canada, France, etc. did it from your comments??? I think not and the definite accusation is toward the US and that old method of blame the other guy, not us or our neighbors just simply does not work anymore. The situation is in your sphere of influence, your part of the world, and it is incumbent for you and others in that area to deal with it and blaming others is a very poor excuse, if one at all.

Now, now, ErikD, let's not play slow of wit here, for if you read at all, listen to the world news, are enlightened to any degree, it is well known there is little if any petrol in country, inflation terrible, food stocks are absent, and graft and greed rampant as well as the health system is non existant and that surely is not confusing to you.
You were there a year ago, so were the people I refer to and have been a few times prior, but the conditions are much worse in all respects in all these areas mentioned. I plan on going to Africa to hunt in the near future myself, but to deny that Zimbabwe is in melt down, is again, not of the real world. We have all heard of the big bird unable to fly and upon the approach of danger, sticks it's head into the sand and would not advise that as a good plan. If you or others wish to visit Zimbabwe may God Bless you in your travels, but let's not imply, accuse the US of A of bringing about the troubles in Africa whether it be Zimbabwe or any other place. Sorry, that just does not work anymore.

Driving while under the influence of alcohol is prohibited in most countries. And in my opinion, writing posts on AR while under the influence should be prohibited too. Your post that I quoted above is a good example of why it should be this way...

I suggest you sober up, go back and re-read my first post, and you will find that very little of what you wrote is relevant to what I said.

I said Zim is a good place to visit etc. I have said that I personally do NOT think it's a good place to invest in, or move to at the moment.

And in no way in hell did I accuse the USA of bringing about the troubles in Zim, nor the rest of Africa. In fact, I consistantly write on AR that Africa has only itself to blame for the problems it has, and not any previous or present colonial/super powers.

Again:

quote:

Originally posted by driver:

Friends just returned from Zimbabwe and did so with my warning of the conditions and I can assure you they will not be back, ever. There for 10 miserable days, and on the third day went to no small effort to get the hell out, but found that impossible.

Go drink some coffee, sober up, and then please enlighten me as to why your friends had such a miserable time in Zim last year, since you were able to ignore the one single question I asked you...

Hello ErikD,
Well, perhaps you are slow of wit for I did indeed state the obvious fact(s) that anyone alive and breathing would know not to suggest anyone, friend or otherwise, to go and spend time in Zimbabwe. If you wish to go there, great, you can leave this very day if you wish, no one will make any effort to stop your progess to Zimbabwe. As for little relevance to your original comments, points, etc., let us just say your comments were of little relevance.
Oh, yes, enjoy your next visit to Zimbabwe and be sure and take lots of medicine, fuel, food, supplies, currency on your trip to beautiful downtown Zimbabwe, you are going to need all of it and then some.

PS I have always heard that Norway and similar socialist nations have a real problem with alcohol????? Not me, for I have not had a drink since the early 80's and did drink a fair amount then (it was either free or I simply took it) for it was damp, dirty, slimy, sweltering, diseased, dangerous, you name it, while occupied travelling the length and breadth of The Continent of Africa so would suggest to not even hint that you know anything at all about Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello ErikD,
Well, perhaps you are slow of wit for I did indeed state the obvious fact(s) that anyone alive and breathing would know not to suggest anyone, friend or otherwise, to go and spend time in Zimbabwe. If you wish to go there, great, you can leave this very day if you wish, no one will make any effort to stop your progess to Zimbabwe. As for little relevance to your original comments, points, etc., let us just say your comments were of little relevance.
Oh, yes, enjoy your next visit to Zimbabwe and be sure and take lots of medicine, fuel, food, supplies, currency on your trip to beautiful downtown Zimbabwe, you are going to need all of it and then some.

PS I have always heard that Norway and similar socialist nations have a real problem with alcohol????? Not me, for I have not had a drink since the early 80's and did drink a fair amount then (it was either free or I simply took it) for it was damp, dirty, slimy, sweltering, diseased, dangerous, you name it, while occupied travelling the length and breadth of The Continent of Africa so would suggest to not even hint that you know anything at all about Africa.

Driver,

I guess I am slow of wit.

For although I see you writing about the general problems local people in Zim face; lack of fuel, inflation, etc etc, you still have not told us what your friends had problems with.

The reason I ask for specifics (besides that I am obviously slow of wit...), is that it is very uncommon for visitors, be they hunters or photosafari tourists, to have much trouble with the problems locals deal with daily. Visiting hunters do not need to aquire fuel or food themselves for example, as that is usually the PH's job.

So what was it? Your friends weren't able to eat at McDonalds while in Zim? They couldn't find a t-shirt to bring back for their kids? They had to make do with local beer, instead of the imported beer they prefer? What exactly made your friends so miserable that they actually wanted to "escape" after only a few days?

And please be specific, for those of us who are a bit slow...

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello ErikD,
Well, perhaps you are slow of wit for I did indeed state the obvious fact(s) that anyone alive and breathing would know not to suggest anyone, friend or otherwise, to go and spend time in Zimbabwe. If you wish to go there, great, you can leave this very day if you wish, no one will make any effort to stop your progess to Zimbabwe. As for little relevance to your original comments, points, etc., let us just say your comments were of little relevance.
Oh, yes, enjoy your next visit to Zimbabwe and be sure and take lots of medicine, fuel, food, supplies, currency on your trip to beautiful downtown Zimbabwe, you are going to need all of it and then some.

PS I have always heard that Norway and similar socialist nations have a real problem with alcohol????? Not me, for I have not had a drink since the early 80's and did drink a fair amount then (it was either free or I simply took it) for it was damp, dirty, slimy, sweltering, diseased, dangerous, you name it, while occupied travelling the length and breadth of The Continent of Africa so would suggest to not even hint that you know anything at all about Africa.

Driver

Please tell us more of your adventurers in Africa. Driving across the length and breadth of the Continent must have been an exciting event.

Have you read of Erik's trip?

http://www.dunia.no/default.asp

[quote]Andrew, what else would anyone derive from your comments other than the US 0f A brought about all these troubles?[quoTte]

driver,

I'm out! You do not read my posts, and do not attempt to reply to my questions. I do not argue my case to your rules. I make the rules for my case.

For clarity I repeat: IMHO the USA government of the day had a big role in putting Muganbe in power. You argue this point or get lost!

Chill out!

Bye Bye!

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Not me, for I have not had a drink since the early 80's

Perhaps you should start drinking again. It will probably improve your prose, judgment and taste in friends.

driver,

How many times have you travelled to Zim, and what (if any) negative experiences did you have there?

If, when I awoke tomorrow, my mother whispered in my ear that there were some brothers and sisters in Zimbabwe that she had failed to tell me about, and they were named Friday, Brent, Shirley, Forgot and a few others.... Damn, my family would be just that much better.

Alas, the country is all buggered up, but there are those who won't leave, except in a box. God, bless them. It is their dirt, their history and their future, be what it may, regardless of Robber Bob.

I've made decisions in my life about what is basic right or wrong. I'm sure that I've made mistakes. After some serious heart searching and advice and some tears by African-born and bred folks on both sides of the issue... I chose to hunt Zimbabwe. I don't think I need to look back.

I can't forecast what will come, but if my dime helps keep one of the great game fields of the world viable and feeds the families of those who conserve it, I'm in, hook, line and sinker.

I just pray that a time will come when I, or my children, can smile and say that the little I've done trying to influence my elected officials, and the bucks I spent that filtered down to the working guys (again, black and white), somehow helped preserve a piece of the continent I love, I'll die a little easier.

And 500Grains, I'm not sure I qualify to say that I've traveled as much as some, maybe even Driver... but I've got my "bona fides", as you do (and for sure ErikD does). Still, I, too, would like to hear those of Drivers.

Now, more importantly....

Do you think the Braves can make up 12 games before the season ends?

Hello JudgeG,
It would only require you to contact 500Grains and he can fill you in on my travels if that is really important to you. As for you wishing to maintain the hunting grounds of Zimbabwe, helping your fellow man, that is a noble cause, but I am fairly confident that sport hunting will not save the nation known as Zimbabwe from it's dismal outlook for the future.
I will say that my travels to Africa, Zimbabwe and other locations were not of a sporting nature, but business of all manner w/ mining and engineering projects, mining machinery applications, geological surveys, exploration of minerals, etc. and can assure you that those numerous visits offered no shield of the true nature of the people nor the government(s.) One might say that my experiences were more than likely not as pleasant as apparently your visits were and obviously provides you with some comfort and pleasure. That is a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
you still have not told us what your friends had problems with.

Well? The suspense is killing us...

Or is it that the story of your "friends" is just another BS fantasy?

Interesting that you have been "all over" Africa in the mining industry. Of all the numerous people I have met in African countries that work in those businesses, from companies ranging from Drillcorp to Anglogold, everyone was pretty pleased with living in Africa. Yes, they had to face problems that were in a whole other league compaired to what they would face at home in the first world, both privatly and professionally, yet they still thrived. Which makes me wonder why you didn't. And then we hear that your "friends" hated being in Zim last year...

Thus, you leave us no other choice but to believe that you and your friends (we still haven't heard why they were so miserable) just weren't mentally equiped to handle the challenges of Africa.

Might I suggest to you the "Epcot center" at Disney World next time you want to "see the world". They also have their "Animal Kingdom", in case you wish to see some African animals. Both can be experianced from the safety of your own country...

Hello ErikD,
Now, did I say that I did not thrive?? I do not recall saying that, and actually did quite well, but it may well come as a shock to you that Africa is not the most desireable place to be on earth whether working or whatever and if it were there would not be such a migration of people to other parts of the world. To visit on a hunt, vacation (can't imagine that) and living and working every day are two entirely different worlds and the visit for a few days,weeks, in a protected environment, catered if you will, is not the real picture of any place. To speak as though hunting provides one with in depth knowledge of Zimbabwe or any other place is a falsehood and degrades one's credibility. I would guard against that in the future or someone will take you to task, quickly and surely.
And to the real point of the original conversation that Zimbabwe should be looked upon as a growth potential, investment opportunity and have great people is insanity in the purest form. As for your suggestions, not really interested in them, but I am most confident that you personally feel they are very important. That is the nature of most alpha dogs and those of massive ego syndrome.
And yes, my friends were lacking in food, fuel for necessary travel, accomodations not as promised, game not there as described, no heat in facilities, hassle by officials at more than one location and would say those are the makings of an unpleasant stay in Zimbabwe. And as for the time frame of my friends in Zimbabwe, it was this year and matter of fact was this month.
Is this a rare occurence? I am not sure, perhaps you with your numerous trips to Zimbabwe would have the ability to shed some light on such matters. Have you been there some dozens of times?? Again, far be it from me to impede anyones travels to Zimbabwe, but let's not attempt to portray the place as some haven for rest and relaxation and even an investment opportunity. Only the lamest of minds would take that position or believe it.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello ErikD,
Now, did I say that I did not thrive?? I do not recall saying that, and actually did quite well, but it may well come as a shock to you that Africa is not the most desireable place to be on earth whether working or whatever and if it were there would not be such a migration of people to other parts of the world. To visit on a hunt, vacation (can't imagine that) and living and working every day are two entirely different worlds and the visit for a few days,weeks, in a protected environment, catered if you will, is not the real picture of any place. To speak as though hunting provides one with in depth knowledge of Zimbabwe or any other place is a falsehood and degrades one's credibility. I would guard against that in the future or someone will take you to task, quickly and surely.
And to the real point of the original conversation that Zimbabwe should be looked upon as a growth potential, investment opportunity and have great people is insanity in the purest form. As for your suggestions, not really interested in them, but I am most confident that you personally feel they are very important. That is the nature of most alpha dogs and those of massive ego syndrome.
And yes, my friends were lacking in food, fuel for necessary travel, accomodations not as promised, game not there as described, no heat in facilities, hassle by officials at more than one location and would say those are the makings of an unpleasant stay in Zimbabwe. And as for the time frame of my friends in Zimbabwe, it was this year and matter of fact was this month.
Is this a rare occurence? I am not sure, perhaps you with your numerous trips to Zimbabwe would have the ability to shed some light on such matters. Have you been there some dozens of times?? Again, far be it from me to impede anyones travels to Zimbabwe, but let's not attempt to portray the place as some haven for rest and relaxation and even an investment opportunity. Only the lamest of minds would take that position or believe it.

Thank you for answering my one and only question.

From what you have written, it is logical to conclude that your friends picked an unprofessional PH/Outfitter to set their hunt up for them. Perhaps you can enlighten us with who they hunted with, so that other innocent hunters can steer clear?

The poor misguided souls that want us to boycott Zimbabwe are probably the same fools who periodically ask us to boycott Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Smith & Wesson, some toothpaste that's advertised in some magazine that doesn't appear to be pro-hunting, etc., etc.

There are a lot of screwed up countries in the world and Zimbabwe happens to be one of them. Blacks and Whites that have chosen to stay, or have to stay, are trying to find some way to survive and deal with the adversity. They have a tough row to hoe. I admire them.

There is a great deal of racial resentment, which is easily understandable. I was surprised to hear Whites around the campfire talk about how they worry most about Mugabe dying, and what may follow. I assumed they all wanted him dead. The feeling was that if he had kept his word and achieved land reform immediately after being elected, the farm invasions wouldn't have occurred, and the economy wouldn't have been devastated. They were optimistic about countries such as Zambia that were encouraging farmers and businessmen from Zimbabwe to relocate their businesses there.

I personally won't go to Zimbabwe for political reasons, nor stay away for political reasons. I will return in 2008 probably for hunting reasons. I hope some of the same people I met will have prospered in the meantime.

I found all the people I met to be extremely polite whether in the towns, the safari area, or the airport. Clearing customs / immigration in Vick Falls was easier than Mumbai by a long shot.

I was surprised that after getting my rifle upon arrival, one of the baggage handlers caught up to me to hand me my luggage tag that had broken off. When I checked out of the country. They found a pair of scissors in my carry-on. They didn't keep them like they would have in Dallas, Atlanta, Jo-burg, or Mumbai. She told me to slip it in my gun case. While I was waiting for the Customs lady to check my gun, the guys waiting to move the luggage to the plane were friendly and eager to engage in some reciprocal bullshit artistry.

Here's my philosophy; if you don't want to go to Zimbabwe, fine, but don't get all preach-y about it. Your moral outrage doesn't carry any weight with me nor the people of Zimbabwe. Those of us living elsewhere, and pretending to understand their problems aren't going to make those problems go away.

Another thought provoking comment I heard 'round the fire was that a cure for AIDS would be the worst thing that could happen to Africa. Sad to say, it makes sense if you think it through.

That's what I like about Africa. You arrive with one set of beliefs and values, and you fly out scratching your head. You don't change Africa. It changes you.

quote:

That's what I like about Africa. You arrive with one set of beliefs and values, and you fly out scratching your head. You don't change Africa. It changes you.

Very well put.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello JudgeG,
It would only require you to contact 500Grains and he can fill you in on my travels if that is really important to you.

Huh? I do not even know who you are. Unless you are Wynwood/Cats in which case your travels are limited to scanning other people's trophy photos and then posting them here as your own.

Well I will be there in about three weeks, so can easily update everybody.

Having seen the country in 1988, 1994, 2002, and now in 2006 it will be interesting to see how it has changed yet again. Unfortunately probably (for the country) not for the better.

***

"Driver"

One of these forums reasons for existence is to warn people of whom not to deal with.

If your friends really ie in "real life" - did have the bad experiences you mention please provide a report on whom they dealt with before writing off a whole country. Specific facts please.

(edited)

Well spoken Andrew. We will disagree as gentlemen, which is fine, and as it should be. The nation of Zimbabwe does indeed have awesome potential. I hope I live to see it realized...not for my benefit, but for the very fine people who have stuck it out through these terrible years. As an American...I have not had to feel ashamed of my country very often, but when I was over there in the late 70's..That was one of those times. The antics of the Carter administration as promulgated by Mr. Andrew Young made me ashamed, and left me without an answer when my Rhodesian friends asked "don't they know what's coming if Mugabe's goons ever run this country...??"
Well, he does run it, and the horrors as a result have indeed come to pass. I would only ask...WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE..?? Where is Mr. Carter and Mr. Young now..?? Surely the current situation isn't the black man's paradise they envisioned..??
Enough for now...For those wondering...yes, I was one of those Americans who in the late 70's tried to prevent this ugliness from coming to pass by putting myself on the line with a rifle in my hand...FN FAL...not a mod. 70.
Cheers all..I'm done for now.

Dan,

Please tell me that this is a mistake. Surely you must know Driver? I mean could anybody be dimwitted enough to blatantly lie about knowing somebody who is posting on the same thread!

Must be a mistake right?

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Dan,

Please tell me that this is a mistake. Surely you must know Driver? I mean could anybody be dimwitted enough to blatantly lie about knowing somebody who is posting on the same thread!

Must be a mistake right?

Wow. That is too funny!!

Didn't someone else make up the same excuse of business travels when confronted with all of his . Now who was that?????

I have been lucky enough to visit Zim each year for the last six years and spent a fair amount of time there and other parts of africa as a tourist. Never had a problem . Airport staff and public servants are better than here in Aus. As usual sometimes have to be patient; Africa time is even slower than Aus time.
fuel availability was not a problem during my last trip over in April and we did travel a large part of the country.
I would not have a problem recommending a holiday there with any of the people I have spent time with.
Maybe Ganyana can give us a more details with out upsetting the powers that be.
ozhunter

Hello ErikD,
No, I did not forget anything and if you will read my last post regarding this subject, you will note that I opted not to say the groups name for it was not my hunt and if those attending wish to do so that is their option and if and when I wish to make it known, that will be done when and where I desire to do so. Again, I am sure you recently were made aware of all phone, e mail, correspondence, communication, etc. in Zimbabwe subject to Government scrutiny. I also understand that recently the lic. fees for the PH's has been increased?? Yeah, sounds like a real nice place and we all need to seriously think about spending money there to support their "government." Right!
By the way, you never answered how many times you have visited the area and surely you must have some exciting, fascinating "stories" to tell about it, and your travels, or at least there are some who say you can "spin a real yarn." (Spinning a yarn means telling at best half truths.) Now, how many times have you really visited the area and how were you treated by your PH/Outfitters?? Any record heads taken on your hunts?? If so, that is great.
It should be pointed out that it is rude to interfere with other postings on other subjects, but I understand you probably just can't help yourself. ( One can only hope that is the case.)

I find it an absolute hoot when someone on the internet has a compulsion to post b.s. and attempts to continue to defend posts that make little sense to those who know better. What the heck are they thinking. Who knows who they are or even gives a flip? They could just disappear or assume another name. Perhaps they just enjoy stirring do-do. If that's so, their life must be pretty darn dull.

BTW, I faked this picture and wasn't really in Zimbabwe. Finding the blow-up elephant doll wasn't too hard, but spending $9k for the Searcy prop was a real downer:

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello ErikD,
No, I did not forget anything and if you will read my last post regarding this subject, you will note that I opted not to say the groups name for it was not my hunt and if those attending wish to do so that is their option and if and when I wish to make it known, that will be done when and where I desire to do so. Again, I am sure you recently were made aware of all phone, e mail, correspondence, communication, etc. in Zimbabwe subject to Government scrutiny. I also understand that recently the lic. fees for the PH's has been increased?? Yeah, sounds like a real nice place and we all need to seriously think about spending money there to support their "government." Right!
By the way, you never answered how many times you have visited the area and surely you must have some exciting, fascinating "stories" to tell about it, and your travels, or at least there are some who say you can "spin a real yarn." (Spinning a yarn means telling at best half truths.) Now, how many times have you really visited the area and how were you treated by your PH/Outfitters?? Any record heads taken on your hunts?? If so, that is great.
It should be pointed out that it is rude to interfere with other postings on other subjects, but I understand you probably just can't help yourself. ( One can only hope that is the case.)

Driver (or should we call you Cats, Chugach, Charles McWilliams, Wynwood or perhaps Rev. Terrence Murphy? All your aliases are easy to mix up after a while...),

Unlike you and your various personalities, I have nothing to hide.

I think 500grains said it quite well: "Huh? I do not even know who you are. Unless you are Wynwood/Cats in which case your travels are limited to scanning other people's trophy photos and then posting them here as your own."

So unlike you, I don't "spin yarns". I just happen to have gone to a few less visited places in Africa, where the chances of having a few unusual experiances have been inevitable. If some of them are beyond your comprehension, well, that's not my problem.

As for visiting that region, since you feel it is relevant in some strange way;

I was in South Africa for the first time in 1988.

I was in Zim for the first time in 1998.

I was in Botswana for the first time also in 1998.

I was in Namibia for the first time in 2000.

In 2002 I was in Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Niger and Chad.

In 2003 I was in Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique, Swaziland, RSA, Botswana, Namibia and again in RSA.

In 2005 I returned to Zim.

There's my "African history". Since you seem to feel that it's important for some reason.

And every time I have been in an African country with a PH, including Zim, I've had a great time and have been treated very well by them. Just as I've a great time in all the places I've been to in the rest of Africa without the help of a PH or anyone else.

I have not taken any record heads (as if that proves anything?), and specifically hunted tuskless elephant cow last year because I am interested in the experiance more than "record heads". It sounds to me like you think quite differently on that matter... That's your own choice.

As for various types of correspondence being under the scrutiny of governments, I am sure this happens even in other countries besides Zim. So keep your tin foil hat firmly placed on your head when leaving home.

All in all though, none of the above will help anyone in general. However, you have the chance to help future hunters by telling us who your group of friends hunted with (and we don't even need to know your friends names). Just the PH/outfitter!

But, as everyone else on this thread is beginning to suspect, your claims are undoubtedly pure BS, just posted in order to stir up shit...

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

BTW, I faked this picture and wasn't really in Zimbabwe. Finding the blow-up elephant doll wasn't too hard, but spending $9k for the Searcy prop was a real downer:

Ernest,

There may be many things we have not seen eye to eye on, but I must say that I am impressed with your Photoshop abilities! Had I not known better, I would have easily believed that you really shot that elephant in Zim! It's so life like. And no one would ever guess you were in a studio with a green screen backround!

Admit it! You had help from your kids while faking that picture on your computer!

But Driver of course won't be fooled. Since we detect a smile on your face, the picture clearly could not have been taken in Zim according to him.

driver,

What about the claim that 500grs could back you up? Really, how could you be so stupid as to make a claim like that?

EricD:

Just for fun and purposefully hijacking:

Burkina Faso
Mali
Ivory Coast
Senegal
Ghana
RSA
Zim
Botswana
Tanzania
Kenya

Probably the best time I had was when I got in the wrong line in Ivory Coast (on a lay missionary trip) and got my passport stamp as having imigrated. I spent thirty minutes (in French, no less) before I could get a 19 year-old kid, in fatigues and with an AK-47 and flip flops instead of boots, to believe that I was actually not moving to Africa, just visiting... and I needed to get a visa validated, not a residence permit as issued. Try to explain that with high school French and sign language.

Heck, I thought I was going to have to find a job or something. I guess I could have easily gone to work using my PhotoShop skills... BTW, I didn't use a studio. I just imported a bunch of African flora into my back yard.

Now, now, ErikD, must not become emotional and resort to harshness, it is not becoming of you and gains you nothing. I had no idea you cared so much for "fellow hunters" when it appears from your comments that hunting is not one of your most active pastimes. Now, who does not spin yarns? Hell you have a whole web site devoted to the fine art and you bring up the subject of BS!! You would appear to be the professional at such things, and far be from me to "out spin" a pro from Norway, for that place is known far and wide on the globe to be home to some of the biggest BS'ers in captivity. ( Only observe how they vote and speak in the United Nations and I am sure you will catch on quickly.) The conversation with you bores me and comes to no conclusion other than you are seemingly a well travelled fellow, but not very wise in the world. Time will perhaps help you become wiser.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Now, now, ErikD, must not become emotional and resort to harshness, it is not becoming of you and gains you nothing. I had no idea you cared so much for "fellow hunters" when it appears from your comments that hunting is not one of your most active pastimes. Now, who does not spin yarns? Hell you have a whole web site devoted to the fine art and you bring up the subject of BS!! You would appear to be the professional at such things, and far be from me to "out spin" a pro from Norway, for that place is known far and wide on the globe to be home to some of the biggest BS'ers in captivity. ( Only observe how they vote and speak in the United Nations and I am sure you will catch on quickly.) The conversation with you bores me and comes to no conclusion other than you are seemingly a well travelled fellow, but not very wise in the world. Time will perhaps help you become wiser.

Are you just completely unable to answer direct questions? How would 500grs know you or what you have done?