If you have received your 2006 Atcheson Hunting Almanac do not miss reading their disclaimer on page 6.

They have done a masterful job of putting into words "What guided sport hunting is like"

Just a couple of quotes:

"There are no guarantees. You must accept this fact or don't go. You will find it different, with varying standards, but that is what sport hunters thrive on and must be why they go, for they understand that the game they might bag is only a small part of the overall hunting experience."

and:

"Leave most alcohol, your tape measure, personal problems and all difficult people behind."

Looks like sound wisdom and advice to me in any event.

Very nice.

I might book a hunt with Kieth one of these days, but I don't like his practice of charging money to be on the cancelled/discounted hunt list. It doesn't cost a dime to mass email. Other booking agents (Wendell and Mark Young, for example) do it as a courtesy to try and save a client's deposit, and Kieth, you should too.

But the disclaimer above is fair enough.

In general, I wish all booking agents would list their success rates. Many say the higher the hunt cost, the better the odds of success. Well, if you know what it is, tell us. It would become a self policing thing anyway; a guy with a success rate of 25% on elk couldn't give away a hunt if others had a 60% rate.

My father booked a 2007 hunt to New Zealand with him. He has been great so far with details and info. I am booking a 2008 Buff hunt in Zim through him if Zim is ok still by then. He is a great person, very knowledgeable and a trustworthy individual.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Success rates are BS in my opinion.

I am a younger individual (in my 20's) and have had the opportunity to hunt in Africa, Northwest Territories and throughout the US having success on animals from anything from Mule Deer to Elk to Black Bear, Mountain Lion and even some stuff in Texas. I am in good shape and ready to climb mountains ride horses for long distance periods, and normally shoot a few thousand rounds of rifle caliber stuff every year .223-.458Win. If I went on a hunt I would have a high success rate probably of getting an elk. With some outfitters probably 100% since I can shoot, ride, hike and have a pretty good understanding of hunting and stalking.

Now take another type of hunter. (Sorry if I offend anyone) This hunter is in his late 40's, 50's or even 60's who smokes or doesn't, sits in an office or on the computer a bunch, is a little or a lot overweight, who can't ride horses, and who most of the time lives back east where elevation isn't even out the 100's of feet.

Now you put him in a Elk Camp where the elevation is 6-7,000 feet, and expect him to hike and ride hard for 7 days and shoot an elk. He prob only went to the range seven times (maybe that number is to high) before the hunt, and only shot off the bench.

Now you require him to hike up to a ridge, find the elk in his scope, get a good shooting rest sitting or offhand and take the shot. Success rate won't be very high.

Better questions to ask and outfitter;

How are your elk populations? Increasing/Decreasing?

What kind of predators do you have in the area? Wolves, Grizzlies, Lions?

Have you had any large fires in your hunting area that could effect food sources for wildlife?

If I am in good shape, what chances do I have a getting an elk?

Asking about chances are better than asking about success.

If an outfitter gets fat, unhealthy clients who can't shoot. Success rate won't be very high. I would ask him other questions such as How many clients had shots at elk.

If they only had 25% success but the other 75% of the clients missed a shot well I think I would book with the outfitter.


Have a good one

I agree with Sierra for the most part, success rate mean many different things. I guess it is how you define success.
I can lose count on how many mountain goat outfitters claim 100% success rates but, you would be hard pressed to find an outfitter who has a dead goat for every client. Ask them about these success rates and most will say you can't include the ones that couldn't get up the hill, or spent 7 days in the tent due to weather
So you have to define exactly what success rates actually mean.

Soory for the thread hijack

AnotherAZWriter,

Keith's fee has an insurance aspect to it with reduced rates for a redo if you have no opportunities or something like that. It is also optional, though encouraged. I passed on it when I booked a hunt with Keith last year. And again this year.

One of the better features with going through Keith is how you can bank your trophy fees, etc with him for some - maybe all - of the African outfits he works with. No need for carrying lots of cash or travelers checks or casheirs checks. Just agree on what you owe and leave. Worked like a charm for me.

Keith's advice and recomendations and predictions were 100% spot on and this was a great and welcome benefit.

JPK

JPK:

I have no doubt Keith does an excellent job. But let's be upfront: he risks nothing other than his commission on the redo, and it requires you to do multiple trips to get back what I recall is a 10% discount?. Correct me if I am wrong; won't be the first time.

What I was referring to above is the $200 fee for getting on his list of cancelled hunts. What on earth is that for except to increase revenues? Other booking agents, when faced with a cancellation, immediately get on AR (or send out a mass email, which is free) to try and sell the hunt. Now, if that 200 bucks is used to cover any lost deposit, great, my hats off to Keith. But I don't think it does. But niether am I implying he doesn't do a great job if you do cancel; I don't know. I am only saying this policy has caused me to think twice about booking with him.

BTW, when I hunted with Wendell last year I didn't even have to give him a check at all for my trophy fees until I was back in the US and the trophies were in the salt. If Wendell was more of a businessman than a good guy he would take the cash up front, deposit it in short-term securities, and make even more money. Hmmm, maybe...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
JPK:

...BTW, when I hunted with Wendell last year I didn't even have to give him a check at all for my trophy fees until I was back in the US and the trophies were in the salt. If Wendell was more of a businessman than a good guy he would take the cash up front, deposit it in short-term securities, and make even more money. Hmmm, maybe...

Let's not be putting an crazy ideas in Wendell's head.

I think if you are selling hunts, that there is a more than reasonable expectation for success or why bring the gun. Hunting is hunting wether you finish with an '06 or a camera. I think I resemble the guy described by Sierra. Almost 60, overweight, sit in surgery on my fat ass for 10-16 hrs. a day, wish I had time to shoot the 4000-6000 rounds a year at the range that I used to shoot. I think it is fair to ask how much game is in the area and that in Africa you should have more of an expectation. You should see a lot of game. In my youth I could walk the walk/talk the talk. I hunt the way I want now and pay for the prividge. Too many outfitters sell hunts that they know are marginal and get away with it with the excuse "that's hunting" snd that is total bull in my eyes.

quote:

Now take another type of hunter. (Sorry if I offend anyone) This hunter is in his late 40's, 50's or even 60's who smokes or doesn't, sits in an office or on the computer a bunch, is a little or a lot overweight, who can't ride horses, and who most of the time lives back east where elevation isn't even out the 100's of feet.

Now you put him in a Elk Camp where the elevation is 6-7,000 feet, and expect him to hike and ride hard for 7 days and shoot an elk. He prob only went to the range seven times (maybe that number is to high) before the hunt, and only shot off the bench

I would consider it part of the booking agents job to have a profile of his client. Why would he book someone on a hunt that he is not physically capable of? An honest agent would turn down the hunter rather than send him on a hunt that he knows will be a failure.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I think if you are selling hunts, that there is a more than reasonable expectation for success or why bring the gun. Hunting is hunting wether you finish with an '06 or a camera. I think I resemble the guy described by Sierra. Almost 60, overweight, sit in surgery on my fat ass for 10-16 hrs. a day, wish I had time to shoot the 4000-6000 rounds a year at the range that I used to shoot. I think it is fair to ask how much game is in the area and that in Africa you should have more of an expectation. You should see a lot of game. In my youth I could walk the walk/talk the talk. I hunt the way I want now and pay for the prividge. Too many outfitters sell hunts that they know are marginal and get away with it with the excuse "that's hunting" snd that is total bull in my eyes.

IB404: Hunt the way you want: you have EARNED it. I have to wonder how someone does so much hunting in his 20s and finds time to earn money/create a business. But hey SB45, if you did, my hats off to you.

I find today that I spend more time working out than shooting.

As long as we are talking about booking agents, let me throw in a little plug for Cabela's, sure to stir the pot...

In 2001 I hunted the Selous. Back then, I didn't surf the net, had no idea about a lot in the Selous. I had hunted in Mongolia in 99 (you can read about that hunt in the current issue of Sporting Classics) with Cabelas and things went off without a hitch. The Mongolia hunt was handled by Greg Severinson, the manager of Cabelas Outdoor Adventures. The Selous hunt was handled by Russell Seele. What a debacle. Had me going to the Selous in early July, before the camp was even open. But even in late July, when I went, the grass was way too long. But my issue: they never told me there was a charter plane. I carried only enough for my tips and the trophy fees. I was told the first buffalo was included in the hunt price; in camp they said no.

I had to stop in Zurich on my way home for business and was steaming mad. I called Greg right away. Shortly thereafter I received my buffalo trophy fee and $1800 for the charter in. Most guys wouldn't have screwed it up the first place, but at least Cabelas fixed it. I blame Seele mostly.

This is a good one. It has brought a few things to mind for me.

I agree success rates can be somewhat deceiving, don't always reflect what the expectations of a hunter in reasonably good physical condition and who is fairly competent with a rifle might be. Some people though like numbers so they can compare one outfit to another. In my mind telling a client that most people have a shooting opportunity is more approriate if that's the truth but it sounds vague to some.

There was a comment about an agent booking a client on a hunt knowing full well it was more than they could handle. I would try to avoid that at all costs but in reality clients don't always give you the whole story no matter what your good intentions might be. Also why would an agent book a "marginal" hunt for a client? Only because he was short sighted and had no integrity.

On another subject I don't want to have to give a client back money to help compensate for a botched safari plan. I want and I would expect any responsible agent would want to set the hunt up right in the first place. I think I earn my commission by helping people understand all of what makes up their safari and not mentioning charters etc. is just dishonest.

I think pre paying trophy fees is a really great idea. Taking thousands of dollars in any form to Africa is not comfortable. Also the last thing I want to do at safari's end is haggle about money and write Traveler's Checks.

Lastly I wholeheartedly agree that "There are no guarantees".

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
sit in surgery on my fat ass for 10-16 hrs. a day, .

But if you didn't do that, guys like me couldn't afford trips to Africa either.

quote:

Originally posted by M16:
I would consider it part of the booking agents job to have a profile of his client. Why would he book someone on a hunt that he is not physically capable of? An honest agent would turn down the hunter rather than send him on a hunt that he knows will be a failure.

I don't think a booking agent can know for sure if a client is really in good enough condition for the hunt or not. We have posts here by LT. Col. who claimed to be in fantastic physical condition until he came to Alaska on a Brown Bear hunt. He gave up after a few days hill climbing through the brush and alders in rotten snow. If I remember correctly there was another fellow who had problems on a goat hunt in the Prince William Sound. While these hunts are very tough and difficult, that is pretty much common knowledge, and the client is responsible for their physical conditioning.

There are a lot of guys who think they are in better shape (or promise to be) than they can deliver.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I think if you are selling hunts, that there is a more than reasonable expectation for success or why bring the gun. Hunting is hunting wether you finish with an '06 or a camera. I think I resemble the guy described by Sierra. Almost 60, overweight, sit in surgery on my fat ass for 10-16 hrs. a day, wish I had time to shoot the 4000-6000 rounds a year at the range that I used to shoot. I think it is fair to ask how much game is in the area and that in Africa you should have more of an expectation. You should see a lot of game. In my youth I could walk the walk/talk the talk. I hunt the way I want now and pay for the prividge. Too many outfitters sell hunts that they know are marginal and get away with it with the excuse "that's hunting" snd that is total bull in my eyes.

IB404: Hunt the way you want: you have EARNED it. I have to wonder how someone does so much hunting in his 20s and finds time to earn money/create a business. But hey SB45, if you did, my hats off to you.

I find today that I spend more time working out than shooting.

Did I earn all the money for all the hunts. To be truthful, No I didn't. My father was 38 years old when I was born, and since I didn't know my grandfather and from what I have heard my father/grandfather were not close. He wanted to change that with me. Since 12 I have been going on big game hunts with him. He has always fronted my bills for the hunts. During college I worked full time at stores making money and going to school to pay for my tuition and help with hunt costs (Like Extra Plains Game Animals). I finished up college in 3.5 years which saved me $10,000. I am currently working on a business, I have started a few in the past, and going to grad school full time at night while pursuing a teaching certificate during the day is what I am doing now.

Since I have been investing since 15, I have learned a lot. One of the biggest has been a little stock symbol called WMB. Now not many people knew about that stock. So buying it for $2.20 seemed to be a good deal. Check it today. That was a smart decision. Getting paid $8 an hour through college wasn't that great, but investing in that little stock paid off.

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:

quote:

Originally posted by M16:
I would consider it part of the booking agents job to have a profile of his client. Why would he book someone on a hunt that he is not physically capable of? An honest agent would turn down the hunter rather than send him on a hunt that he knows will be a failure.

I don't think a booking agent can know for sure if a client is really in good enough condition for the hunt or not. We have posts here by LT. Col. who claimed to be in fantastic physical condition until he came to Alaska on a Brown Bear hunt. He gave up after a few days hill climbing through the brush and alders in rotten snow. If I remember correctly there was another fellow who had problems on a goat hunt in the Prince William Sound. While these hunts are very tough and difficult, that is pretty much common knowledge, and the client is responsible for their physical conditioning.

There are a lot of guys who think they are in better shape (or promise to be) than they can deliver.

I think you have it pegged correctly. I have found there is being "In Shape" and then there is hunting shape. That hunting shape is tough to get into.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
As long as we are talking about booking agents, let me throw in a little plug for Cabela's, sure to stir the pot...

In 2001 I hunted the Selous. Back then, I didn't surf the net, had no idea about a lot in the Selous. I had hunted in Mongolia in 99 (you can read about that hunt in the current issue of Sporting Classics) with Cabelas and things went off without a hitch. The Mongolia hunt was handled by Greg Severinson, the manager of Cabelas Outdoor Adventures. The Selous hunt was handled by Russell Seele. What a debacle. Had me going to the Selous in early July, before the camp was even open. But even in late July, when I went, the grass was way too long. But my issue: they never told me there was a charter plane. I carried only enough for my tips and the trophy fees. I was told the first buffalo was included in the hunt price; in camp they said no.

I had to stop in Zurich on my way home for business and was steaming mad. I called Greg right away. Shortly thereafter I received my buffalo trophy fee and $1800 for the charter in. Most guys wouldn't have screwed it up the first place, but at least Cabelas fixed it. I blame Seele mostly.

My partner and I had the same thing happen to us. We were sold a hunt in the Selous in mid July, Grass was high and green. We were told we were to be the first in camp and have our pick of all the unmolested game. We were there for 10 days, did a lot of scouting and burning saw a few head of game. I shot a Hartebeest for camp meat on the third day at the incistance of the game scout. Tracked one set of bulls for 4 hours one day but the wind beat us. It was a great job of tracking but there were so many woodcutters in the area we couldn't get close. We finally ran into two bulls at 2 pm the last day and shot them on a good stalk. Boy my PH was happy. He thought he was going to have to refund our money or have us come back the next year. To boot we were not even in in the Selous we were in the Mehenge* communal area. It was a total lie..

JMHO, but wouldn't it be wonderful to pay about 80% of the safari cost after you have game in hand? I expect that might up some PH's success (read committment levels) rates tremendously. All this background noise about the quality of the hunt and the total experience, and shooting an animal just being icing on the cake is crap. If a PH can't guarantee me a shot at a ____________________(fill in the blank), then perhaps hunting fees need to be restructured to a minimal daily fee to go "camping" and charge for game taken or wounded and lost.

Rich

I am a big man. I have a lot of heart. I also know not many men live past their 59th birthday. The national statistics prove it. Any outfitter that is using a 20-40 year old as a guide can not EXPECT to get 20-40 year old performance from a hunter in his 60's. It may happen occasionally but if you expect it then you are delusinal. The fact is that those that make a life in the outdoors walking and hiking are lucky and probably in better shape if they don't drink or smoke to excess. I just think it unrealistic for someone that books a hunt to really know what tough hunting is, like, the example of failures of hunters on extremely difficult hunts. That is what we PAY YOU to realize! Hell I get my deer every year and if I have time I get my two turkeys and don't use a guide.

When mega bucks are involved the outfitter has a duty to evaluate what he sees and tell the prospective client that this hunt may not be for him. I never book a major hunt without the outfitter seeing me, all fat and out of shape, and if he tells me " no worries mate" we can get'er done, I have a right to expect it within reason. I have been on 6 safaries and only on the hunt in the Selous was there an issue and that issue was an unknowledgable or unsrupulus outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I think if you are selling hunts, that there is a more than reasonable expectation for success or why bring the gun. Hunting is hunting wether you finish with an '06 or a camera. I think I resemble the guy described by Sierra. Almost 60, overweight, sit in surgery on my fat ass for 10-16 hrs. a day, wish I had time to shoot the 4000-6000 rounds a year at the range that I used to shoot. I think it is fair to ask how much game is in the area and that in Africa you should have more of an expectation. You should see a lot of game. In my youth I could walk the walk/talk the talk. I hunt the way I want now and pay for the prividge. Too many outfitters sell hunts that they know are marginal and get away with it with the excuse "that's hunting" snd that is total bull in my eyes.

IB404: Hunt the way you want: you have EARNED it. I have to wonder how someone does so much hunting in his 20s and finds time to earn money/create a business. But hey SB45, if you did, my hats off to you.

I find today that I spend more time working out than shooting.

Did I earn all the money for all the hunts. To be truthful, No I didn't. My father was 38 years old when I was born, and since I didn't know my grandfather and from what I have heard my father/grandfather were not close. He wanted to change that with me. Since 12 I have been going on big game hunts with him. He has always fronted my bills for the hunts. During college I worked full time at stores making money and going to school to pay for my tuition and help with hunt costs (Like Extra Plains Game Animals). I finished up college in 3.5 years which saved me $10,000. I am currently working on a business, I have started a few in the past, and going to grad school full time at night while pursuing a teaching certificate during the day is what I am doing now.

Since I have been investing since 15, I have learned a lot. One of the biggest has been a little stock symbol called WMB. Now not many people knew about that stock. So buying it for $2.20 seemed to be a good deal. Check it today. That was a smart decision. Getting paid $8 an hour through college wasn't that great, but investing in that little stock paid off.

Thanks for being honest, SB45. You have a wonderful father. Have fun hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:
If you have received your 2006 Atcheson Hunting Almanac do not miss reading their disclaimer on page 6.

They have done a masterful job of putting into words "What guided sport hunting is like"

Just a couple of quotes:

"There are no guarantees. You must accept this fact or don't go. You will find it different, with varying standards, but that is what sport hunters thrive on and must be why they go, for they understand that the game they might bag is only a small part of the overall hunting experience."

and:

"Leave most alcohol, your tape measure, personal problems and all difficult people behind."

I would say that I gathered at least "moderate" experience over the last decade or so - of what paid,outfitting hunting is all about:

As in all realms of life, there are plenty of folks willing to take your money.

Hunting in the wild,especially in difficult areas,mountains,climate is not 100% predictable,understood.
On the other hand, hiring a photo safari or camping trip on horses is far far cheaper.
Yes they are plenty of outfitters that will sell you a hunt for everything you want and will assure you that you will have excellent to good chances at whatever you request.If you then see nothing - its not HIs fault,its the "hunting experience "
On the other hand, there are certainly some honest outfitters that indeed know their land,know their guides,knows what weather can do etc,and are willing to actually offer what they can deliver.
I learned , at first asking questions and actually believing the answers.Until I realized that not everyone is honest , most will second or offer what they think it takes to hook you.
SO in reality its kind of a cat and mouse game.
Asking questions and reading between the lines,unless you have solid known references.

With most of my hunts now ,I leave a fair chunk of my money - that is my past life - on the table. THe booking agent as well as the outfitter know that.If they were ethical they would be honest and not trying to sign you up by confirming yor aspirations or dreams,but actual reasonable expectations.
I still maintain that is the exception today.
Public sharing of experiences is about the best learning tool.
I fully understand the rather high overhead a hunting outfit faces, lets call that a business overhead.Akin to any other business overhead.
If you want to sell,you first have to invest in the business and provide the place.
If you are selling a hunt,I think - solely from my own perspective - you ahve to assure that indeed the sought after game is available in sufficient number and quality, call it a gurantee if you iike.
This because ,we learned that too many dishonest outfits ecuse the lack of sucess with the excuse of a "pleasurable hunt","thats hunting", else go to a ranch or zoo, in other words trying to minimize their stake in the venture they are selling.
Yes, there are areas, times when an area is void of game or the game cannot be reached or found.
An honest outfitter should know that and I believe does know that.
A dishonest man,on the other hand, is just trying to make a living,looks out for himself,takes you for a ride - literally - and if you dont see game : "that's hunting". :>

Bottom line, a bit more honesty at the start would be nice,why should the client/hunter shoulder 100% of the high cost of a sold safari without success.
Where in the world do you pay for a Ferrari up front, go to the fiesta and find no Ferrari's?

And - no - I dont buy that hunts are "unpredicable", maybe to some I am infantile-OK.

Any area - in the wild - has a certain game density and quality,we are NOt talking about exceptional past histories,we are talking predictable past results.

We are allowing for weather related variance
In other words,the outfitter should not sell a crap shoot,"lets see what comes up, he should know what is attainable,and if he is wrong
ideally it should not be at the clients expense.
Of course this does not adress inability to shoot or hit,ability to get around etc.

OK, off my soap box

I have booked two hunts through Jack Atcheson. They have been terrific hunts, and I will use their services again.
I must admit to being a bit taken back when first reading their disclaimer. It is 100% honest, however. I didn't think there was a need to be this blunt. With no offense intended, after reading Sheephunter's and some other responses, it is clear why Atcheson sees the need for this disclaimer.

I know that not every hunt will be successful (in terms of harvesting the desired trophy). I have been there, gone home empty several times. Even the best outfitters can't control the game, and I don't want them too! Fundamentally, I am out for the adventure, and the thrill of the hunt. Yes, I hope and expect to be successful. I am even disappointed when things don't work out. That doesn't mean it is automatically the outfitters fault. And yes, there are some unethical outfitters, as everyone knows. I book through Jack Atcheson, and other reputable booking agents to try and go with the best.

Bill

Geez,

I have bad days, weeks or even years at my duck and deer leases here at home. Been hunting them for decades in some cases. Hunting isn't that predicatable and there are plenty of odd or unusual impediments to sucess that come up. And thats my personal experience and it doesn't involve some huge unknown in the form of a fellow who can't walk or shoot or won't try or is hungover to beat the devil, needs pampering or what ever.

I try to book for the times and places and outfitters and guides/PH's that give me the best chance of success. I have used Jack Atcheson ans Sons to help me best determine when, where, who and some of the compromises and trade offs involved.

If you do your home work and the guide/PH gives it his all and is as disapointed as you are if everything doesn't pan out..., ouch, life bit back a little.

When you buy the Farrari you take your money to the dealership and drive away with a Ferrari. When you take your money to the shoe store you take away your shoes.... You will never take away the things that make a hunt.

If collecting dead animals is the goal for you, you should be shopping for dead animals, not for hunts.

The Atcheson disclaimer/warning might strike some collectors wrong, and I think that is probably a good thing. But if a fellow who wants a hunt thinks twice about it, it reads pretty good.

JPK

quote:

If collecting dead animals is the goal for you, you should be shopping for dead animals, not for hunts.

I think that is the "nut" of this controversy. I would RUN from any group that promised me a 100% guaranteed kill.

I agree, there are no guarantees on hunts. On a "shoot" - yes, it is guaranteed. But not a true hunt.

I admire the Atcheson's for stating what we all know to be true. I have their magazine and like the format. As a matter of fact, I have talked myself out of considering a sheep hunt that requires horses as I hate horses and they hate me. I would rather walk than ride one.
\
Wendell Reich is a very good person to talk to on this subject as he describes his hunts with
"reasonable expectations". That is the way it should be.

Deal with honest, reputable people and things have a way of working out for the best. Deal with "100% guarantee" or "B&C animals everywhere" and you will be disappointed.

My dad once told me that the girls in Playboy magazine were not "a reasonable expectation" so don't spend all of your time looking for "what is not there". Same goes with hunting.

This is interesting. I would think that if this discussion about hunting practices and ethics would be taken to the extreme, I guess there would be only two opposite sides of opinions left:

1. would say, that if you have worked your ass off in some godforsaken office and become fat in the process for 35+ years, raising up some kids and paying taxes all your life you have a full right to hunt any animals you want any way you want, not forgetting shooting from all sorts of vehicles and even being airborne, hell you have cashed your license for doing whatever during the last 35+ years of hard work.

2. would say, that the hunt isn't that much about the hunter and his/hers position in the human society. It is more about the effect and practises experienced by the animals that he/ she is after. If you shoot a bad and crippling shot, it doesn't matter if you are a first timer or a chief of GM, IBM or Microsoft. If you cheat the animals by getting close to them by car, ATV or helicopter, it isn't cleared out by some simple excuses, like the persons good deeds in the human society making the whole affair acceptable "in the large scale".

It's up to everyone to decide, which side to take.

My opinion? You guess.

As a part response to some misinterpretation that is very easy on either "side"
No question that a "guarantee" cannot be given as there are too many uncontrolled variables.

That being understood and the seller thereby protected, my question is how is the buyer protected from an unscrupolous seller?

I have not found a formula yet.I have found that a mans word is about as good as you can get.

I have no problems with folks enjoying a trip to an empty country and calling it a hunt,because that is what they booked and they figure its alright.

I like Jack Sr.

Sheephunter,

Book with the best you can find, check refrences, pay a fair price, don't bargain hunt. In the end you gotta trust somebody.

You won't find empty concessions and pointless walking if you've done your homework. Some hunts and some programs lean more toward the final end which is your opportunity. You might not find sucess though either if sucess is a dead animal.

I think you were mistreated on the hunt discussed at naseum here on AR. I don't know whether it was miscomunications or misunderstanding or what, and I don't really care. But if you were fit and game and you hunted hard and there was little or nothing you were looking to hunt to be had, well, you were mistreated. A redo or refund would have been fair.

Still, going hunting is that; it is not going shopping.

JPK

JPK,
I certainly agree with your words as well as the meaning
I was not trying to cast doubt on J Atcheson who has a very good reputation.
I was opening the old problem of what an outfitter can get away with - in general.
Hunting is quite complex and certainly as many state ,not guaranteed.
SO I have Zero problems with an outfitter explaining exactly what he sells.
I have trouble with the countless sharlatans that take trusting clients literally on a ride,hiding behind the same statement of no guarantee.
As stated, a mans word is about the best guarantee one can get.One then has to evaluate and learn what that word stands for.
There are agents that do that,explain what is available at what time,aeas,problems.That is an honest deal.
There are many though that sign you up for good money promissing you anything you literally ask without actually "guaranteeing " it.They win, because one trusts them and they know it.Others call the client then gullible.

My original point discussed success odds, not guarantees. Stating historical success rates would not be that hard. One thing I do like about Atcheson's is that they have, at least in the past, noted average trophy measurements for the area. That gives me some idea of what is out there.

I also note Atcheson seems to have a pretty loyal following...

Sheephunter and all,

There are charlatans in every walk of life and in every type of bussiness. Ussually they don't last too long. Word of mouth is the sunlight that cleanses. This is why references provided by the bussiness and found independently are important.

Also, things will go wrong from time to time with even the best and most trustworthy, it is how they handle it when things go south that seperates the best from the also rans.

JPK

Any booking agent that had a disclaimer such as Atchison's would never get my money. Think as you will. Essentially he is saying spend money with me with no assurance of anything. Very few hunters are virgins with now sins.

A booking agent is responsible for telling the truth. If you book a deer hunt and you spend your time with the guide searching for game and never see any deer, then the booking agent did not deliver his end. He owes you a refund. If you want a work out in the mountains looking at scenery then you can do that on your own and for a pittance in money. I just think many hunting agents are selling just so much "BLUE SKY" and should be held accoutable for that line of BS.

I would never want to book a hunt where a kill was guaranteed (maybe a bird shoot?), but I would be upset if I went and never saw hide or hair, or not a track, of the primary species I was after. Or come to find out that I had been misled by an outfit by booking me into a concession during a time seeing the primary species was a rarity or non-existant. Misrepresentation of the concession or the time of time of year just to sell a hunt is not a valid a hunt. If the lions or leopards, or whatever, are there, but don't kill one is hunting. If you can't even find their tracks throughout the concession and they don't even exist there or don't exist there at the time of year the PH or outfitter told you book for that species is something different.

ALL,

Were all shopping for Dead Animals..
Without this desire,all this and everything associated to such Guns,Booking agents, Websites would be of no interest, there would be no lure to far places... All in the dust pan of history...
Respectfully,
AK

Maybe I should have printed the full text of the disclaimer so its meaning is clear - hopefully the author will not mind it being quoted. I think it is quite good.

"DISCLAIMER
WHAT GUIDED SPORT HUNTING IS LIKE
Applies to all hunting, fishing, tours and adventures

The hunting adventure is a grand experience, but an experience unlike the stereotypical guided 'tourist-type' tours that your local travel agency offers. Your local travel agent's tour probably has an itinerary and a plan describing conditions, accommodations, etc.

But the sport hunting experience just doesn't work that way. You might say fair chase sport hunting has an open itinerary - lots of plans, strategies and ideas that are likely to change daily or even hourly. Everything may go as planned...or nothing will!

Surprises, confusion, delays, disruptive weather conditions, disappointments, risks of death or terror, disease, hazards, great joy, and sudden unexplainable changes are likely at any time. However, this is precisely what creates the challenge, the excitement, the memories, the sense of perseverance, accomplishment and victory!

There are no guarantees. You must accept this fact, or don't go. You will find it different, with varying standards, but that is what sport hunters thrive on and must be why they go, for they understand that the game they might bag is only a small part of the overall hunting experience. All of this is really nothing new. True sport hunting has always been this way and will never change. It is all part of fair chase and adventure. Fair chase is real hunting!

Obviously, most people who go sport hunting do achieve their objectives and are quite satisfied. But all hunting may not be for everyone. Success rates on some hunts or certain species are higher than others. Book what your time and income can handle without skimping. Sport hunting is seldom a bargain. Your mental and physical stamina is important and must be considered. Wild animals and horses can be dangerous. So can boats, planes, the weather, mountains, elevators and your fellow man. As Justice Cordozo said, "The timorous may stay at home." But an adventure at home is indeed rare!

Your party may be better off on the African plains that in the mountains, or hunting pronghorn or quail instead of lions, bear or sheep. You must decide that. Africa is easier in most ways, but some people prefer alpine regions. People and customs may be very different. Take your camera and an open mind. Non-hunting companions should expect the same and must be the rough, outdoor type that can adapt.

Imperfections of man, beast or equipment is part of the hunting adventure. High standards are admirable, but ailing, inflexible or difficult people with a history of problems or hard drinking who can't accept this must not go. Life is too short for all of us to risk spoiling this potential life-long memory. Leave most alcohol, your tape measure, personal problems and all difficult people behind. The service may not be what some expect.

Atchesons will tell you how it might be, could be, or should be, but really can't tell you for sure how anything will be - or even if you will enjoy it. We can't promise anything for sure, except that Atchesons and the outfitter want you to be successful and will work hard to that end. Fair chase hunting especially for difficult, rare or larger trophies, may require more than one hunt. A lot of unexpected physical effort or hardship and walking may be required, even on the easiest types of hunts. In some cases, the arrangement may not be all that you wanted or expected, but the hunt is what it is. The obstacles you encounter daily are what distinguish sport hunting from game farms or certain controlled shooting. What one sees as a dream hunt may be a nightmare to another.

Guides and outfitters use various types of camps and methods, depending on the situation. We may discuss several, you and the guide may daily use yet another method. Animals, weather and luck are unpredictable. You are always free to deal directly with the outfitter. It is part of the fair chase and the luck of the hunt. It is an adventure and experience where success is not measured only by the quantity or quality of game take. Hunting is the pursuit. That is HUNTING!"

(From Jack Atcheson and Sons brochure and website.)

Just to add to the mix, one of my favorite quotes, the author of which I forget:

"He's as good as his word, and his word is no damn good!"

quote:

There are no guarantees. You must accept this fact, or don't go. You will find it different, with varying standards, but that is what sport hunters thrive on and must be why they go, for they understand that the game they might bag is only a small part of the overall hunting experience.

Thanks Palmer
Reading thru the whole it is difficult to disagree.Nevertheless I shall attempt to do so - in the spirit of discussion what an outfitter should provide:

!: the statement that
"the game they might bag is only a small part"
is at least debatable.
Its correct when taking to the ridiculous extreme : get your corpses and be happy.
Nobody expects or enjoys that.

On the other hand, some may enjoy the hunt,persuit alone without bagging a trophy.
That though implies that the game is actually present,its just that the hunter chooses not to shoot,wait or miss.Still a nice experience

What I am getting at is "that game should be present" .
We do that by careful selection of the area ,time, Ph etc etc.In other words, we seek high probability for sucess.
The advertisement and assurances of the outfitter undoubtedly enter the decision making.

Consequently the outfitter should be helt to his word and not hide behind "honrable phraseology" like "that is hunting"

If indeed one persues and pays for a hunt with low probabiity,it should be stated up front.
That would be honest representation.
But when I hear "we have a "good" chance to harvest this and that, I seem to conclude that if I do my share and the PH is any good - we will succeed.


In reality,quite a few outfitters like to maximise personal gain by overbooking,meaning signing up more hunts than available game,
booking hunts at time slots where the probability of success is chancy etc,
That is not "hunting" that is willful misrepresentation if not clearly outlined - up front.

So there is a fine line between no gurantee can be given at abuse of that phrase.